[b-hebrew] Isaiah 53 read within the book as a whole

UUC unikom at paco.net
Mon May 24 10:28:52 EDT 2004


>I have put my spirit upon him (certainly as a result of
being the Messiah, the Anointed One, to enable him to
carry out my purpose).<
No, spirit was on the prophets without them being messiahs.

>He does not (need to) shout or raise his
voice in the street.  He will not break a weak reed nor
extinguish a flickering flame (he will not oppress the weak).<
Possible reading. We just disagree with you on how plausible it is.

> > > , in 48:14ff, in 49
> > > obviously not in vs.3,4?
> > I omit "Israel" in 3.
> Omit it also from the discussion with Abram, and you would
> get Persians a chosen nation
>Israel was formed to bring Israel back to YHWH? (vs 5)?
I would say that 5-7 is an insert. When spotting interpolation, we should
look for the purpose. No purpose in inserting Israel in vs.3.

>Guilt is not a precondition of responsibility.
>I'm responsible if my children damage something.
Only if you are guilty of negligence.


Best regards,

Vadim




> > > > > It is Cyrus again in Isaiah 61 tho.
> > > > Yeah? How about vs.5,6?
> > > Dunno.
> > > Cyrus in 61:1-4.
> > You cannot pick and choose whatever verses may be related to
> > Cyrus and disregarding the others, while stating that Isaiah
> > wrote of Cyrus as savior.
> > There are clearly verses that don't fit your hypothesis.
> The prophet certainly does not stick to one subject.
> There are verses and words added by later writers.
> Besides that, the chapter divisions are much later.
> Why is it necessary that later verses refer to the same topic
> as earlier ones?
> >
> > > > > And it is Cyrus in 42
> > > > vs.2,3?
> > > Who else could it be?
> > Not proclaiming on streets?? Not breaking a reed??
> Behold (See, right here in front of me is) my Servant
> on whom I rely (to carry out my purpose).
> My chosen, in whom I delight.
> I have put my spirit upon him (certainly as a result of
> being the Messiah, the Anointed One, to enable him to
> carry out my purpose). He will bring justice to the nations.
> (Boy will he!) He does not (need to) shout or raise his
> voice in the street.  He will not break a weak reed nor
> extinguish a flickering flame (he will not oppress the weak).
> He faithfully brings forth justice.
> He will not faint or become weak until he has established
> justice on the earth. The nations await his law.
>
> >
> > > > , in 48:14ff, in 49
> > > > obviously not in vs.3,4?
> > > I omit "Israel" in 3.
> > Omit it also from the discussion with Abram, and you would
> > get Persians a chosen nation
> Israel was formed to bring Israel back to YHWH? (vs 5)?
> >
> > > Why do you translate clei as clay?
> > > They are usually silver and gold. Check out the uses of the term in
> > > TANAK.
> > Any particular place regarding which you can state this for sure?
> > The root meaning is related to clay.
> Just go through all of Leviticus, Numbers, the priestly texts,
> they are silver and gold temple vessels.
> The word for clay is homer everywhere, even in Isaiah.
> cf 41:25, 45:9
> >
> > > My point exactly. It doesn't matter whether he has actually
> > sinned or
> > > not. He bears the responsibility.
> > No! Sinned himself or not, he bears guilt, a precondition of
> > responsibility.
> Guilt is not a precondition of responsibility.
> I'm responsible if my children damage something.
> I have to pay the costs. It doesn't make me guilty of
> anything.
> Best,
> Liz
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Vadim
> >
> > > >
> > > > > (not in 50, unless he is
> > > > > the servant mentioned in 50:10)
> > > > So not everywhere?
> > > Pretty much every where.
> > > >
> > > > > Clei are used in Ezra to refer to the vessels from
> > YHWH"s temple.
> > > > > They are used in the Mesha inscription to refer to the vessels
> > > > > from YHWH's temple in Moab.
> > > > Yes, but they are clei vessels, which wouldn't be taken by the
> > > > occupants, unless our understanding of the then material
> > culture is
> > > > way off the mark.
> > > >
> > > > >Their sin becomes
> > > > > his responsibility. It's a legal obligation, not a moral one.
> > > > In Judaism, the whole concept of mishpat is centered
> > around zedek;
> > > > remember the story of the two pillars. No responsibility without
> > > > guilt. The high priest actually shares the guilt of his
> > people, not
> > > > some guiltless responsibility, like in criobolium (well, possibly
> > > > even there). They are one body before the Almighty.
> > > My point exactly. It doesn't matter whether he has actually
> > sinned or
> > > not. He bears the responsibility.
> > > Best,
> > > Liz
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > >
> > > > Vadim
> > > >
> > > > > > Not to delve in the correct translation of every
> > word, here it is:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 10. He has bared his holy arm before the eyes of all
> > the nations.
> > > > > > All the ends of the earth have seen it! -- the saving
> > > > power of our
> > > > > > God!
> > > > > > 11. Depart! Depart! Get out from there!
> > > > > > Touch no unclean thing.
> > > > > > Get out from the midst of it! Purify yourselves, you
> > who carry
> > > > > > YHWH's clei (earthen vessels, or weapons).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > prepare to be the holy warriors, in a sense
> > > > >
> > > > > Clei are used in Ezra to refer to the vessels from
> > YHWH"s temple.
> > > > > They are used in the Mesha inscription to refer to the vessels
> > > > > from YHWH's temple in Moab.
> > > > > What is your problem in seeing them here? Why bring in some
> > > > extraneous
> > > > > thing when the whole point of Deutero-Isaiah is to get the
> > > > people to
> > > > > leave Babylon and go to Israel to rebuild the temple and to
> > > > > install YHWH"s vessels in it?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Isaiah is comprised of many themes, with various
> > interpolations.
> > > > > > That he speaks about Cyrus chapters ago, doesn't mean he
> > > > speaks of
> > > > > > him here. How ouwl you weigh 52:13-15? As ugly Cyrus?
> > > > > I don't know.
> > > > > It is Cyrus again in Isaiah 61 tho.
> > > > > And it is Cyrus in 42, in 48:14ff, in 49 (not in 50, unless
> > > > he is the
> > > > > servant mentioned in 50:10), and in 61, as I said.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On the matter of shared guilt, I think you miss my point.
> > > > > On the day of atonement, the high priest purges the
> > sanctuary on
> > > > > behalf of himself and on behalf of the community. He is
> > > > carrying out
> > > > > his responsibility for their sin. This doesn't mean that he
> > > > didn't sin
> > > > > himself or that he did. It doesn't deal with that at all. Their
> > > > > sin becomes his responsibility. It's a legal obligation, not a
> > > > moral one.
> > > > > When Truman said "the buck stops here," he meant he was the one
> > > > > who was ultimately responsible, not that he was guilty (and not
> > > > > that he wasn't guilty).
> > > > > Best,
> > > > > Liz
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
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