[b-hebrew] Isaiah 53 read within the book as a whole

Lisbeth S. Fried lizfried at umich.edu
Sun May 23 15:53:24 EDT 2004


> 
> Dear Liz,
> 
> > It is Cyrus again in Isaiah 61 tho.
> Yeah? How about vs.5,6?
Dunno.
Cyrus in 61:1-4.
> 
> > And it is Cyrus in 42
> vs.2,3?
Yup, bad translation here tho in the NRSV
Who else could it be?
Who else could establish justice on the earth except
Cyrus?
> 
> , in 48:14ff, in 49
> obviously not in vs.3,4?
I omit "Israel" in 3.
> 
> > (not in 50, unless he is
> > the servant mentioned in 50:10)
> So not everywhere?
Pretty much every where.
> 
> > Clei are used in Ezra to refer to the vessels from YHWH"s temple.
> > They are used in the Mesha inscription to refer to the vessels from 
> > YHWH's temple in Moab.
> Yes, but they are clei vessels, which wouldn't be taken by 
> the occupants, unless our understanding of the then material 
> culture is way off the mark.
Why do you translate clei as clay?
They are usually silver and gold. Check out the uses of the term
in TANAK.
> 
> >Their sin becomes
> > his responsibility. It's a legal obligation, not a moral one.
> In Judaism, the whole concept of mishpat is centered around 
> zedek; remember the story of the two pillars. No 
> responsibility without guilt. The high priest actually shares 
> the guilt of his people, not some guiltless responsibility, 
> like in criobolium (well, possibly even there). They are one 
> body before the Almighty.
My point exactly. It doesn't matter whether he has actually
sinned or not. He bears the responsibility.
Best,
Liz
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Vadim
> 
> > > Not to delve in the correct translation of every word, here it is:
> > >
> > > 10. He has bared his holy arm before the eyes of all the nations.
> > > All the ends of the earth have seen it! -- the saving 
> power of our 
> > > God!
> > > 11. Depart! Depart! Get out from there!
> > > Touch no unclean thing.
> > > Get out from the midst of it! Purify yourselves, you who carry 
> > > YHWH's clei (earthen vessels, or weapons).
> > >
> > > prepare to be the holy warriors, in a sense
> >
> > Clei are used in Ezra to refer to the vessels from YHWH"s temple.
> > They are used in the Mesha inscription to refer to the vessels from 
> > YHWH's temple in Moab.
> > What is your problem in seeing them here? Why bring in some 
> extraneous 
> > thing when the whole point of Deutero-Isaiah is to get the 
> people to 
> > leave Babylon and go to Israel to rebuild the temple and to install 
> > YHWH"s vessels in it?
> > >
> > >
> > > Isaiah is comprised of many themes, with various interpolations. 
> > > That he speaks about Cyrus chapters ago, doesn't mean he 
> speaks of 
> > > him here. How ouwl you weigh 52:13-15? As ugly Cyrus?
> > I don't know.
> > It is Cyrus again in Isaiah 61 tho.
> > And it is Cyrus in 42, in 48:14ff, in 49 (not in 50, unless 
> he is the 
> > servant mentioned in 50:10), and in 61, as I said.
> >
> >
> > On the matter of shared guilt, I think you miss my point.
> > On the day of atonement, the high priest purges the sanctuary on 
> > behalf of himself and on behalf of the community. He is 
> carrying out 
> > his responsibility for their sin. This doesn't mean that he 
> didn't sin 
> > himself or that he did. It doesn't deal with that at all. Their sin 
> > becomes his responsibility. It's a legal obligation, not a 
> moral one.
> > When Truman said "the buck stops here," he meant he was the one who 
> > was ultimately responsible, not that he was guilty (and not that he 
> > wasn't guilty).
> > Best,
> > Liz
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> 
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