[b-hebrew] Isaiah 53: in his death?

UUC unikom at paco.net
Fri May 21 12:44:22 EDT 2004


Dear Liz,

>That shouldn't be translated "bears the guilt of", but rather "bears the
responsibility of," the congregation, "takes responsibility for the
congragion."<
In Jewish justice, there is no responsibility without guilt. Period. You're
retrojecting modern concepts of pervasive sin, when a person feels guilty
when he is not.

> think it is worthwhile to remember tho that it is Cyrus who is
the Messiah in the book of Isaiah, not the servant.<
This is your assumption, not a fact.

>It means to take responsibility, but it
> doesn't imply guilt. The High Priest nasa' 'avon of the congregation.
Lev22:16; bear the iniquity
Here is a challenge, if you will: show me one example of nasa with avon,
pesha or het as forgiving (the one forgiving should be, of course, human,
and the sins in question should be more general than offense done to this
particular man) or evidently not related to sharing guilt. There is none.


Best regards,

Vadim


Best regards,

Vadim


> > >I wouldn't translate 10 this way, rather, "if  you would put
> > a ransom on his life...." or "if you would make a ransom of
> > his life."< Possible, but you need to establish Isaiah's
> > usage of impersonal verbs.
> > However, implausible, since requires different antecedents in
> > a phrase.
> >
> > >Generally I avoid the word "soul" as I don't think souls had
> > been invented yet.<
> > See Genesis. nefesh and hayim are different.
> See the use of nefesh throughout the tanak, it is simply another
> way of saying "person". There is no reflexive pronoun in Hebrew
> so they used nefesh. Modern hebrew uses bones, I see my bones.
> Biblical hebrew like Arabic, uses nephesh.
> But the word "soul" is anachronistic.
> >
> > >I also prefer "ransom" to guilt offering (1 Sam 6).<
> > Possible, but the man's guilt is discussed earlier - he
> > lifted, shared the avonot.
> I think that to nasah avon does not mean to be guilty. It is
> a technical t erm used throughout Leviticus. Milgrom has
> written on the term. It means to take responsibility, but it
> doesn't imply guilt. The High Priest nasa' 'avon of the congregation.
> That shouldn't be translated "bears the guilt of", but rather
> "bears the responsibility of," the congregation, "takes responsibility
> for the congragion." Milgrom has
> written a whole article on this somewhere. Maybe it was just
> a chapter in his dissertation. I highly recommend it.
> >
> > >There were no Egyptian judges in Egypt in the Persian
> > period, they were
> > >all
> > foreign.<
> > You're reading the modern stateship into the ancient life.
> > State judges handled the issues, which were not resolved by
> > the community judges.  At least, this was the practice from
> > the beginning of the era or so. No reason to doubt applying
> > it retrospectively.
> I don't know what you mean by Modern. I'm talking about the
> Persian period, which is the period of Isaiah 53. During the
> Persian period there were royal judges in Egypt which were
> appointed by the Persian king (or his agent) in Susa. Then
> there were provincial judges appointed by the Persian satrap.
> All the judges were Persian. There were no Egyptian judges,
> no local judges. This was also true in Babylon. After the Persian
> conquest, local Babylonian judges were replaced by Persian ones.
> Read the archives -- or my book. There were no local courts.
> All courts were Persian courts, this is how the Persians enforced
> their rule.
> I should have discussed more of Isaiah in my book, I missed an
> opportunity. I only stick in my article on Cyrus the Messiah.
> I think it is worthwhile to remember tho that it is Cyrus who is
> the Messiah in the book of Isaiah, not the servant.
> Everyone conveniently forgets that in their effor to see Jesus
> as the servant. That is what happens when passages are read
> out of the context of the entire book. The key to the book is to
> remember that Cyrus is the Messiah, no one else is called that
> in the entire book. Cyrus is the Messiah because he fulfills the
> Messianic role : he rebulds the temple and returns the Jews to
> their land.
> Best,
> Liz
>
> Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph. D.
> Visiting Scholar
> Department of Near Eastern Studies
> University of Michigan
> 2068 Frieze Bldg.
> 105 S. State St.
> Ann Arbor, Michigan  48109-1285
>
>
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