=?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_[b-hebrew]_Re:morpho-syntax,_was_Proverbs_=09? = 5:16 a declarationor a question?

Karl Randolph kwrandolph at email.com
Fri Dec 31 20:05:32 EST 2004


Harold:

I think I see what you claim. In other words, this is a question in the form of a statement, also often done in English, in this case expecting a negative answer. If that is your interpretation, would not the best translation be, “And the people said unto Samuel, ‘Who is he who said, ‘Saul will be king over us?’?’ Allow us that we may cause him to die.”. In this case, that the second half of the question is understood as a question in itself, is not a grammatical feature, but a stylistic use of a statement to carry the idea of a question. Is that what you mean?

As I have stated before, one good grammatical or explanatory argument carries more weight than referrencing 100 translations.

Even if I understand correctly your meaning for 1 Samuel 11:12, I don’t see the connection between that and Proverbs 5:16. There are other questions that you haven’t addressed.

Karl W. Randolph.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harold R. Holmyard III" <hholmyard at ont.com>
> 
> Dear Karl,
>
> > Where in 1 Samuel 11:12 is there an unmarked interrogatory? I
> > translate it as follows:
> >
> > And the people said unto Samuel, “Who is the one who said that
> > Saul will be king upon us? Allow us that we may cause them to
> > die.”
> >
> > MY - Who...? - is a marked question. Statements make up the rest
> > of the verse.
>
> HH: Karl, your translation makes no sense in the context. There
> were those who challenged the right of Saul to rule, and these
> people deserved to die in the thinking of many. But Saul said that
> no one was to die that day, since he had just won a great victory
> with God's help:
>
> 12 The people then said to Samuel, "Who was it that asked, 'Shall
> Saul reign over us?' Bring these men to us and we will put them to
> death."
>      13 But Saul said, "No one shall be put to death today, for
> this day the LORD has rescued Israel." (NIV)
>
> HH: The challenge to Saul's rule came earlier:
>
> 1Sam. 10:27 But some troublemakers said,  "How can this fellow save
> us?" They despised him and brought him no gifts. But Saul kept
> silent.
>
> HH: So the people quoted those who questioned Saul's rule, not
> those who approved of Saul's rule. Let's look at a few other
> translations: Here is the New American Standard Bible:
>
> 12Then the people said to Samuel, "(R)Who is he that said, 'Shall
> Saul reign over us?' (S)Bring the men, that we may put them to
> death."
>
> HH: Here is the Jewish Publication Society translation:
>
> 11:12 And the people said unto Samuel: 'Who is he that said: Shall
> Saul reign over us? bring the men, that we may put them to death.'
>
> HH:Here is the New American Bible:
>
> 2 The people then said to Samuel: "Who questioned whether Saul
> should rule over us? Hand over the men and we will put them to
> death."
>
> HH: Here is the New Revised Standard Bible:
>
> 2 The people said to Samuel, "Who is it that said, "Shall Saul
> reign over us?' Give them to us so that we may put them to death." 1
>
> HH: All these Bibles takes the words as a question, so they agree
> with Gesenius. And don't accuse them all of copying Gesenius, since
> that was also the KJV interpretation. The KJV translators preceded
> Gesenius by a long time:
>
> 12 And the people said unto Samuel, Who is he that said, Shall Saul
> reign over us? bring the men, that we may put them to death. (King
> James Version)
>
> 				Yours,
> 				Harold Holmyard
-- 
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