[b-hebrew] Re: Proverbs 30:19

Bill Rea bsr15 at cantsl.canterbury.ac.nz
Sun Oct 5 16:35:54 EDT 2003


On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 Karl wrote:-

>
> You aren’t a sailor. Particularly not a commercial sailor in the days of sail.
>
> Naybe a ship sailed a cargo easer than schlepping it overland, but it
> was hardly easy. There was constant work to be done aboard the ship,
> watches to stand, and if the wind didn’t go right, you were expected to
> row. There was seldom an idle moment awake and sleep is often stolen.
> Then there was the danger of being caught out in a storm (I hear those
> in the Mediterranean can come up suddenly, almost without warning) and
> sunk. Once in harbor, the crew was expected to load and unload the ship.
> It doesn’t sound easy to me.

It's supposed to be the view of the writer, not the sailors. For a man
sitting on land looking at a ship going by it *looks* graceful. It may
well a lot of work for the sailors, but the poet isn't the one grinding
the winches.

Bill Rea, Information Technology Dept., Canterbury  University  \_
E-Mail bill.rea at canterbury.ac.nz                                </   New
Phone   64-3-364-2331, Fax     64-3-364-2332                   /)  Zealand
Unix Systems Administrator                                    (/'

>
> It sounds a little easier to me, but a snake on bare rock is struggling. He doesn’t find the easy grips to push against that he finds in vegetation and sand. If he miscalculates and the bare rock is high up, it can be fatal.
>
> Of the three, only the flight of the eagle sounds easy, because soaring on thermals and updrafts is the easiest way for a large bird to fly. Come to think of it, it takes so much energy for a large bird like an eagle to fly that they are not found except in places so rich in game so only short flights are needed, or in mountains where there are many updrafts.
>
> If I sound nitpicky, that is what I went through before suggesting (LMH could mean “unknown” or possibly agreeing with the LXX in saying it means “youthfulness, period before marriage”, literally, “in his virginity”.
>
> Karl W. Randolph.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "B. M. Rocine" <brocine at twcny.rr.com>
>
> >
> > Here's another thought on the verse:  the verse is really about the fourth,
> > the way of the strong man with the innocent lass.  The speaker is marvelling
> > at how *easily* he has his way with her comparing his easy manner with the
> > effortless soaring of the eagle, slithering of the snake and progress of a
> > ship.
> >
> > Shalom,
> > Bryan
> >
> > B. M. Rocine
> > Living Word Church
> > 6101 Court St. Rd.
> > Syracuse, NY 13206
> >
> > ph: 315.437.6744
> > fx: 315.437.6766
> --
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 14:17:58 -0500
> From: "Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph at email.com>
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Re: Proverbs 30:19
> To: "Hebrew" <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <20031003191759.12212.qmail at email.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252; format=flowed"
>
> Dear Peter:
>
> I think you’re stretching it.
>
> As far as I know, B- prefix stands only for “in” and “by or with in the sense of instrumentality” e.g. “I hit him with a stick”.
>
> If one wants to do something with someone else, as far as I know the word to use is (M [‘im].
>
> A third problem I have is the definition of (LMH [‘almah] meaning “virgin”. If you refer to his action in deflowering her, she is no longer a virgin, which brings up the question what other unpredictable action is he doing IN her so that she is still a virgin? Both the LXX and my proposal get around that problem by using a different definition of (LMH.
>
> Karl W. Randolph.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Peter Kirk <peterkirk at qaya.org>
> > >
> > I will risk a charge of sexism by pointing out that young women are just
> > as unpredictable as air, rock and sea conditions, and as young men - and
> > young men's response to young women's unpredictability is just as
> > unpredictable as the responses of eagles, snakes and sea captains. So
> > your analogy gives excellent support for the interpretation of DRK GBR
> > B(LMH as "the way of a man with a girl".
> >
> >
> > --
> > Peter Kirk
> > peter at qaya.org (personal)
> > peterkirk at qaya.org (work)
> > http://www.qaya.org/
> >
> --
> __________________________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 15:12:08 -0500
> From: "Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph at email.com>
> Subject: [b-hebrew] ancient stone
> To: "Hebrew" <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <20031003201208.31020.qmail at email.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> To All:
>
> Here is a photograph of a stone written in what appears to be very ancient Hebrew or very similar Semitic language. It is the top stone on this page. I have seen photographs of this stone elsewhere in books, but this is the only example I know of online.
>
> http://www.viewzone.com/FTscandanavia.html
>
> As far as I know, writing of this time was written boustrophedron and in this particular case, reading left to right, I transliterate the following
>
> L(QBR.Z.LHSR.H(DW.DMYT.LMRT
>
> I think there is a missing dot between L( and QBR.
>
> My translation reads, “A grave belittles this (music and dance) to cause to turn aside the witness of it, you liken it to bitterness.” (reminding me of Proverbs 14:13)
>
> This fits into two threads we had recently, one where we question the earliest example where a lamad hey verb is changed to a yod and why are there words sometimes written with a final hey and sometimes without.
>
> (As for the site where I found it, the rest of it is rather wierd, I stumbled on it as a result of a Googlewhack. If someone knows a more reputable site where a photograph of this stone appears, I’d rather link there than here. The only reason I dare reference this site at all is because I have seen photographs of this stone in books.)
>
> Karl W. Randolph.
> --
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 23:41:06 -0500
> From: "Jason Hare" <jason at hareplay.com>
> Subject: [b-hebrew] question from parshat ha'azinu
> To: "B-Hebrew" <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <006801c38a31$bbe9d400$0200a8c0 at computer>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> In Deuteronomy 32.37-38, I came across two forms that I thought were odd. I
> did an MTR search, and this is the only ocurrence of either of these words
> in this form:
>
> )LHYMW [elohei/mo] from verse 37
> ZBCYMW [z'vachei/mo] from verse 38
>
> Is there indeed something odd here? I don't recall ever running across forms
> like this before. What would cause them *not* to use the regular -YW [-av]
> ending??
>
> I looked in Rashi, and he commented nothing on the form. He just added this
> in his notes:
> *)LHYMW* $(BDW [*elohei/mu* she'av'du] - *his gods* whom they served
>
> Any pointers?
>
> Thanks,
> Jason
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 01:32:56 -0500
> From: "Karl Randolph" <kwrandolph at email.com>
> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] question from parshat ha'azinu
> To: "Hebrew" <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <20031004063256.32297.qmail at email.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dear Jason:
>
> The question here deals not with the nouns, but with the -MW suffix. There is some controversy about that suffix, has anyone done a study on it?
>
> There are at least 172 verses where words with that suffix are found. Some of the verses have more than one occurrence of the suffix.
>
> Things that I noticed:
> • the meaning of the suffix could either be plural or singular, though usually plural
> • it occurs more often in poetry than prose, Deuteronomy 32 is poetry
> • it is more often attached to a single letter prefix than to a noun or verb e.g. KMW or LMW
> • where it is plural, it usually refers to a natural group or assemblage, such as a people, tribe
> • it seems to emphasize the subject of the -MW more so than the noun or prefix it’s appended to
> • it seems to indicate that very subject, possibly a reflexive emphasis, not a general subject
>
> Does anyone have any corrections or additions to this?
>
> Karl W. Randolph.
>
>
> From: "Jason Hare" <jason at hareplay.com>
>
> > In Deuteronomy 32.37-38, I came across two forms that I thought were odd. I
> > did an MTR search, and this is the only ocurrence of either of these words
> > in this form:
> >
> > )LHYMW [elohei/mo] from verse 37
> > ZBCYMW [z'vachei/mo] from verse 38
> >
> > Is there indeed something odd here? I don't recall ever running across forms
> > like this before. What would cause them *not* to use the regular -YW [-av]
> > ending??
> >
> > I looked in Rashi, and he commented nothing on the form. He just added this
> > in his notes:
> > *)LHYMW* $(BDW [*elohei/mu* she'av'du] - *his gods* whom they served
> >
> > Any pointers?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Jason
> --
> __________________________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 06:57:35 -0400
> From: "Trevor Peterson" <06peterson at cua.edu>
> Subject: RE: [b-hebrew] question from parshat ha'azinu
> To: "'Hebrew'" <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <000801c38a66$529faf80$179cfea9 at SPEDRSON>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Karl wrote:
>
> > • the meaning of the suffix could either be plural or
> > singular, though usually plural • it occurs more often in
> > poetry than prose, Deuteronomy 32 is poetry
>
> The frequency in poetry may not have much to do with semantics. Since it
> is poetry, we should consider the possibility that it was added for
> sound--to lengthen a form (and thus lengthen a line), perhaps. It could
> also be an archaic or dialectal feature, which tend to hold on in poetry
> longer than in prose.
>
> > • it is more
> > often attached to a single letter prefix than to a noun or
> > verb e.g. KMW or LMW
>
> There could also be a connection with the longer forms from these
> single-letter prepositions (particularly K), where the -mo- appears
> before the usual suffix. If this is basically the same thing, it's one
> of the most common appearances in prose.
>
> > • where it is plural, it usually refers
> > to a natural group or assemblage, such as a people, tribe •
> > it seems to emphasize the subject of the -MW more so than the
> > noun or prefix it’s appended to • it seems to indicate that
> > very subject, possibly a reflexive emphasis, not a general subject
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by this last part. A possessive or object
> suffix is intended to refer to something else, rather than the word to
> which it is attached. Could you give some examples of this emphasis you
> see (and how it differs from other suffixes)?
>
> Trevor Peterson
> CUA/Semitics
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 07:59:29 -0400
> From: "B. M. Rocine" <brocine at twcny.rr.com>
> Subject: [b-hebrew] Mesha Stele Transcription
> To: "b-hebrew" <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <003501c38a6e$f7879780$0302a8c0 at brocine>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> B-Haveray,
>
> Is there a transcription of the Mesha Stele available on the web into either
> the square Aramaic or a phonetic alphabet from which I may recover the
> original text?
>
> Thanks, Bryan
>
> B. M. Rocine
> Living Word Church
> 6101 Court St. Rd.
> Syracuse, NY 13206
>
> ph: 315.437.6744
> fx: 315.437.6766
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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> End of b-hebrew Digest, Vol 10, Issue 5
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