[b-hebrew] qetseph in 2Ki 3:27
Yigal-Levin at utc.edu
Thu Jul 3 10:18:38 EDT 2003
Hi Liz (and all),
Of course, it's not your world-view (on anyone else's) that's in question.
We're all just trying to understand the author's world-view. What "bothers"
me (at least on this level) is not the "unfairness", but how this story, of
what seems to be Chemosh's wrath effecting the Israelites, would have been
understood by the author of Kings. I have no idea what "really" happened.
Assuming that any of this is historical, the "facts" are that the Moabites
were in defeat, the king of Moab (Mesha? Notice that he's not named in the
whole story, beyong the introduction in verse 4. Could this be a
composite?) sacrificed his son in plain sight, and the Israelites
retreated. Is the "Qetseph" something THEY felt? Or the author's attempt to
explain their sudden retreat? In any case, I still don't understand how the
biblical author (Deuteronomist?) understood what happened. I don't think
he's admitting to a divine agent that is INDEPENDANT of Yahweh. In any
case, he does not SAY that the Qetseph came from Chemosh.
At 10:03 AM 7/3/2003 -0400, Liz Fried wrote:
>Right!, Chemosh! I was blocking on the name.
> I should have gotten out my copy of the Mesha inscription to check.
>There's a lot in the HB which is not particularly consisent with my
>world view. For example, you have YHWH sending a lying spirit to
>the prophets. You have a visible corporeal god in many places.
>I don't try to explain these things, I don't try to harmonize them.
>Not every bad thing in the HB comes from sin either,
>the Hebrews were enslaved for (what is it 240 years?) and no
>sin of theirs is ever implied.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
>> [mailto:b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of Yigal Levin
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 3:42 PM
>> To: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: RE: [b-hebrew] qetseph in 2Ki 3:27
>> Where else in the Hebrew Bible, and especially in the DH, do you see a
>> foreign deity "defeating" Yahweh? Whenever Israel is defeated,
>> it's because
>> they have sinned and the enemy is serving as Yahweh's tool. Which is
>> exactly why later exegetes tried to find a sin that Israel would have been
>> guilty of, only in this story none is specified. That's why I don't
>> understand the story.
>> By the way, the Moabite god is Cheomosh. Milchom, a.k.a. Molech,
>> is Ammonite.
>> As for Dave's suggestion, I just don't see it in the text. Besides, I find
>> it hard to picture any ancient soldiers as being so faint-hearted.
>> At 10:29 AM 7/2/2003 -0400, Liz Fried wrote:
>> >Dear All,
>> >Do you not understand what the author is trying to tell you???
>> >It was a divine anger from Molech that drove the attacking Israelite army
>> >There are real gods out there, they have real powers.
>> >The sacrifice was effective!
>> >YHWH's power evidently ended at the Jordan.
>> >Read the words!
>> >Try to realize that this is not a 21st century book.
>> >This is an ancient text, have some respect for its author.
>> >Don't make him conform to your beliefs.
>> >b-hebrew mailing list
>> >b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Dr. Yigal Levin
>> Dept. of Philosophy and Religion
>> University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
>> 615 McCallie Avenue
>> Chattanooga TN 37403-2598
>> b-hebrew mailing list
>> b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
>b-hebrew mailing list
>b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
Dr. Yigal Levin
Dept. of Philosophy and Religion
University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
615 McCallie Avenue
Chattanooga TN 37403-2598
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