New Subscriber

peter_kirk at peter_kirk at
Sat Nov 27 21:15:47 EST 1999

Dear Michael,

You have some interesting teachings! I'll confine myself for now to 
the parts which are relevant to this list. See my comments below 
introduced by "PK:".

Peter Kirk

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: New Subscriber
Author:  <michaelwm at> at Internet
Date:    26/11/1999 23:01

Greetings All,

I'm finding this an interesting discussion, but I'd like to take a moment to 
point out that Scripture ought to be the final Word on how Scripture is 
interpreted and having stated thus I'd like to bring forward the following 
verses that should give context to the question of Genesis 1:2.

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself 
that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not 
in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none 
The King James Version

PK: I don't see the relevance of this verse, as I think we are all 
taking this much for granted (at least as the teaching of Genesis).

Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; 
and the heavens, and they had no light. 24I beheld the mountains, and, lo, 
they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25I beheld, and, lo, there 
was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26I beheld, and, lo, 
the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken 
down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. 27For thus hath 
the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full 
The King James Version

PK: This passage may indeed be talking about a time when the earth 
becomes "tohu wevohu". But when? Note the reference to "cities" in 
verse 26, and the future tenses in verse 27 (in Hebrew, X-YIQTOL 
twice). I think this makes clear what the context already suggests, 
that the prophet's vision (in verses 23-26) is of a future destruction 
of the earth rather than one from before Genesis 1:2. The language may 
be poetically exaggerated, on the other hand this could be a quite 
literal description (given by inspiration!) of the results of a 
nuclear war, a direct hit by an asteroid etc.

I believe that the world BECAME void and without form and this is what is 
expressed in Genesis 1:2 and this is what I teach.  This goes a lot deeper 
and can be readily viewed by taking into consideration that in the Book of 
Ezekiel that Satan is spoken of as a covering cherib, yet immediately upon 
his first appearance in Genesis he is already in a fallen state.  I'd 
suggest reading Ezekiel chapters 28 and 31 specifically.  You will also find 
that Satan was a tree in Eden.

PK: Do you think that this was the understanding of the author of 
Genesis and of the prophet Ezekiel themselves, i.e. that these are 
surviving traces of an ancient tradition about these events? Is there 
any extra-biblical evidence for such a tradition? I agree that Genesis 
1:2 could well be rendered "the earth had become formless and void", 
referring to a time before verse 3 but possibly after a time when it 
did have some form. But I don't think we have any more information 
anywhere in the Hebrew Bible (nor in the NT for that matter) about 
this hypothetical period.

PK: I would prefer to take Genesis 1:1-2 as background material (using 
X-QATAL forms) to the main narrative which starts in verse 3 (using 
WAYYIQTOL forms). Compare 1 Kings 1:1 and Job 1:1 which start with 
background X-QATAL clauses indicating matter anterior to the main 
discourse time line which starts with a WAYYIQTOL. Daniel 1:1, Haggai 
1:1 and Zechariah 1:1 are also X-YIQTOLs where the X is a date 
formula, but these verses, in late material, seem to be part of the 
time line.

Going to the New Testament,...
<snipped as irrelevant>

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