[B-Greek] 1Thesalonians5:23

=) p1234567891 at gmail.com
Mon Jun 6 06:51:46 EDT 2011


Sorry I also quoted the wrong text; I also was referring to 2 Thes 2:8
haha..

2011/6/6 Vasileios Tsialas <tsialas78 at hotmail.com>

>  Correction to my last message: The correct verse is 2The 2:8.
>
> Vasileios Tsialas
>
> > From: tsialas78 at hotmail.com
> > To: p1234567891 at gmail.com; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 11:21:02 +0300
>
> > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1Thesalonians5:23
> >
> >
> > My personal opinion is that, since in 1 Timothy 6:14 speaks about the
> "manifestation" of παρουσία, it is better not to limit παρουσία to the act
> of an arrival. How can an arrival be manifested? I feel that it is better to
> say that a "presence" can be manifested; I feel that the wording of the text
> gives me the impression of an arrival that has already taken place but was
> "hidden" or "unnoticed" until the time of manifestation.
> >
> > Vasileios Tsialas
> >
> > Athens, Greece
> >
> >
> > > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 13:37:41 +0800
> > > From: p1234567891 at gmail.com
> > > To: cwconrad2 at mac.com; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1Thesalonians5:23
> > >
> > > Dear Carl,
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks a lot! I have two more questions though:
> > >
> > > On 3 June 2011 18:58, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > On Jun 3, 2011, at 5:43 AM, =) <p1234567891 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > [1 Thes 5:23]
> > > > > αυτος δε ο θεος της ειρηνης αγιασαι υμας ολοτελεις και ολοκληρον
> υμων
> > > > > τοπνευμακαιηψυχηκαιτοσωμααμεμπτως
> > > > > εν τη παρουσια του κυριου ημων ιησου χριστου τηρηθειη
> > > > > AUTOS DE O QEOS THS EIRHNHS AGIASAI UMAS OLOTELEIS KAI OLOKLHRON
> UMWN TO
> > > > > PNEUMA KAI H YUCH KAI TO SWMA AMEMPTWS EN TH PAROUSIA TOU KURIOU
> HMWN
> > > > IHSOU
> > > > > CRISTOU THRHQEIH
> > > > > moreover may the God of the peace himself sanctify you completely.
> and
> > > > may
> > > > > your entire spirit and [your] [entire] soul and [your] [entire]
> body be
> > > > kept
> > > > > faultless in the presence of our lord, Jesus Christ.
> > > > >
> > > > > I understood "EN TH PAROUSIA" to mean "in the presence", because
> although
> > > > I
> > > > > know that it can imply "arrival" in some instances, it seems to
> have a
> > > > main
> > > > > connotation of "presence" rather than "coming" (just as when we say
> "he
> > > > is
> > > > > finally present" to mean "he has arrived"). Phlp 2:12 has "EN TH
> PAROUSIA
> > > > > MOU ... EN TH APOUSIA MOU" which means "in my presence ... in my
> > > > absence". Is
> > > > > there then reason to take this phrase to mean specifically "in the
> > > > arrival"?
> > > > > Does "EN TH PAROUSIA TOU KURIOU HMWN IHSOU CRISTOU" convey more of
> "in
> > > > the
> > > > > presence of our lord Jesus Christ", whether it is the result of
> "his
> > > > > coming"?
> > > >
> > > > Yes, in Phil 2:12 the sense of παρουσία PAROUSIA clearly is
> "presence,"
> > > > but this appears to be the only instance among the 24 in the GNT of
> the
> > > > word where it does in fact mean "being present" rather than
> "arrival."
> > > >
> > >
> > > What about:
> > > [2 Thes 1:8]
> > > και τοτε αποκαλυφθησεται ο ανομος ον ο κυριος αναλωσει τω πνευματι
> > > τουστοματοςαυτουκαικαταργησειτηεπιφανειατηςπαρουσιαςαυτου
> > > KAI TOTE APOKALUYQHSETAI O ANOMOS ON O KURIOS ANALWSEI TW PNEUMATI TOU
> > > STOMATOS AUTOU KAI KATARGHSEI TH EPIFANEIA THS PAROUSIAS AUTOU
> > > and then the lawless [one] will be revealed, whom the lord will consume
> [by]
> > > the spirit of his mouth and will put away [by] the manifestation of his
> > > presence
> > >
> > > I do think it means that it is by his presence that the lord will put
> away
> > > the lawless one, otherwise if "PAROUSIAS" here means "arrival", what
> does it
> > > mean for "his arrival to put away"?
> > >
> > > Are there instances of "PAROUSIA" in early Christian writings which
> refer
> > > clearly to the act of coming rather than the result of coming (arrival
> or
> > > presence)? If not, am I correct to say that "PAROUSIA" does not refer
> to the
> > > act or process of coming, unlike "ELQEIN" (LXX Mal 4:5), although it
> may
> > > refer to the resulting arrival and presence (as in 1 Thes 2-5)?
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > David Lim
> > > ---
> > > B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
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> >
> > ---
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