[B-Greek] Genre & Grounding
kline_dekooning at earthlink.net
Sat Oct 17 14:28:48 EDT 2009
Thank you Iver and George,
On Oct 16, 2009, at 11:21 PM, Iver Larsen wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth Kline" <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net
> To: "greek B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: 17. oktober 2009 00:28
> Subject: [B-Greek] Genre & Grounding
>> John 19:12 ἐκ τούτου ὁ Πιλᾶτος ἐζήτει
>> ἀπολῦσαι αὐτόν· οἱ δὲ Ἰουδαῖοι
>> ἐκραύγασαν λέγοντες· ἐὰν τοῦτον
>> ἀπολύσῃς, οὐκ εἶ φίλος τοῦ
>> Καίσαρος· πᾶς ὁ βασιλέα ἑαυτὸν
>> ποιῶν ἀντιλέγει τῷ Καίσαρι.
>> JOHN 19:12 EK TOUTOU hO PILATOS EZHTEI APOLUSAI AUTON· hOI DE
>> EKRAUGASAN LEGONTES· EAN TOUTON APOLUSHiS, OUK EI FILOS TOU
>> PAS hO BASILEA hEAUTON POIWN ANTILEGEI TWi KAISARI.
>> How should we read EK TOUTOU in EK TOUTOU hO PILATOS EZHTEI APOLUSAI
>> AUTON? Is EK TOUTOU temporal or causal? Why?
> IMO, it is clearly causal. hOUTOS is normally anaphoric unless the
> context indicates that it is kataphoric. Here it refers back to the
> answer that Jesus just gave. EK TOUTOU is "based on this thing", and
> the thing must be the preceding answer.
> Both BAGD and L&N give the time option for EK although not for this
> passage. L&N suggests "since" and BAGD suggests: "5. of time—a. of
> the time when someth. begins from.." However, if you look at their
> citations, the time sense does not come from EK in itself but from
> the head noun which in all cases refers to an event at a specific
> time or a specific time reference.
I agree. Some of examples in George's quote from BDAG don't suggest a
temporal relation e.g, EK KOILIAS MHTROS where EK marks a location and/
or source and means out of or from, the entire metaphor marks a point
in time, but I don't think EK itself is temporal.
> I don't think EK TOUTOU in and of itself can refer to time. At least
> I did not find any of the EK TOUTOU examples in the GNT or the LXX
> to refer to time. In my view, this is one of the problems with most
> dictionaries. They put too much of the meaning into the lexical item
> itself and too little into exploring how much of the sense comes
> from the adjacent words. In order not to be too hard on BAGD, I
> should add that they list John 19:12 under 3f: "EK TOUTOU - for this
> reason, therefore (Dit., Syll.3 1168, 47; 1169, 18; 44; 62f; BGU
> 423, 17) J 6:66; 19:12." Similarly, L&N lists John 19:12 under
> "markers of cause or reason, with focus upon the source - ‘because
> EK TOUTOU is found two other places in the GNT:
> John 6:66 Ἐκ τούτου πολλοὶ [ἐκ] τῶν
> μαθητῶν αὐτοῦ ἀπῆλθον εἰς τὰ
> ὀπίσω καὶ οὐκέτι μετ᾽ αὐτοῦ
> EK TOUTOU POLLOI [EK] TWN MAQHTWN AUTOU APHLQON EIS TA OPISW KAI
> OUKETI MET' AUTOU PERIEPATOUN.
> EK TOUTOU is again "based on the preceding incident". Because of
> what had happened and especially what Jesus said, many of his
> disciples decided to leave. The time idea in English versions goes
> back to KJV which mistakenly added [time] in brackets here. This is
> then followed by translations more or less dependent on the KJV like
> RSV, NIV, LB=NLT, ESV. Other translations have correctly rendered it
> "As a result of this", e.g. NASB, GNB, CEV and GW.
> The other place is 1 John 4:6:
> ἐκ τούτου γινώσκομεν τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς
> ἀληθείας καὶ τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς πλάνης.
> EK TOUTOU GINWSKOMEN TO PNEUMA THS ALHQEIAS KAI TO PNEUMA THS PLANHS.
> Here, no translation suggests a time reference. The meaning is again
> "based on the foregoing" and it comes across in many translations as
> "this is how..", "that is how" or "by this". GNB has mistakenly
> added a "then" as a remnant of the time idea.
>> John 20:20 καὶ τοῦτο εἰπὼν ἔδειξεν τὰς
>> χεῖρας καὶ τὴν πλευρὰν αὐτοῖς.
>> ἐχάρησαν οὖν οἱ μαθηταὶ ἰδόντες
>> τὸν κύριον.
>> JOHN 20:20 KAI TOUTO EIPWN EDEIXEN TAS CEIRAS KAI THN PLEURAN AUTOIS.
>> ECARHSAN OUN hOI MAQHTAI IDONTES TON KURION.
>> Same question for IDONTES in hOI MAQHTAI IDONTES TON KURION,
>> or causal? Why?
> In itself the participle can go either way. Because of the main
> verb, I would say it gives the cause for their happiness.
I agree. I find other reasons for reading it as causal. The grounds
indicated in 20a EDEIXEN TAS CEIRAS KAI THN PLEURAN AUTOIS, showing
proof of his identity linked by OUN which may be used to mark
consequence, not merely sequence.
In both citations we see a clause within a narrative segment which is
related to the preceding context on the basis causal (logical?)
relations. When reading narrative we are predisposed to look for
temporal connections between the units. However, the genre doesn't
determine how the units will be connected.
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