[permaculture] Market Gardening is Permaculture.

Darrell E. Frey defrey at bioshelter.com
Thu Jan 30 16:40:45 EST 2014


By the way, I did not mean to disparage food forests. I just meant to 
point out that they require substantial labor and input for start up as 
well. I have seen a food forest in Pittsburgh develop in less that 5 
years to be fairly productive in herbs, flowers, and fruit. 

Darrell E. Frey
Three Sisters Farm
defrey at bioshelter.com
www.bioshelter.com

Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society 
Publishing, 2011

On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 16:27:02 -0500, Darrell E. Frey 
<defrey at bioshelter.com> wrote:
Well John, Ecology is fairly complex. Where I live towering forests,
> meadows and wetlands ecosystems once interacted with migrating birds 
> and passenger pigeons and migrating fish, as well as airborn trace 
> minerals to catch and accumulate nutrients to build soil and develop 
> a semblance of balance.  All that developed from bare earth after 
> the ice sheet retreated. As the ice retreated human members of the 
> regional ecology utilized rich natural resources, and also, as they 
> manged grasslands, forests and developed agriculture,  gathered 
> nurtrient and distributed them to their gardens,  and rotated fields 
> and village sites to maintain fertility. 
>
>   19th and 20th century agriculture, and destruction of the regional 
> ecology depleted our soils. We no longer have a robust Gain system of 
> nutrient distribution to aid us. Without human managed regeneration 
> there would be no recovery in thousands of years. The concept of 
> applying permaculture to a market garden is also more complex than 
> you suggest. A permaculture farm ( here I rely on the Designer's 
> Manual, permaculture is 1 a design system, and 2 a place developed 
> using permaculture design) is more than the gardens and crops being 
> sold. Application of permaculture design to a market garden considers 
> all aspects of the farm, from equitable relationships with customers 
> and co-workers, through water, energy and nutrient systems  to the, 
> renewed biodiversity of the site, relationship to the local and 
> global environment and microbial web  that supports all. We too seek 
> to make the most of  locally  obtained and imported nutrients to 
> build on farm nutrient cycles with the goal of minimizing inputs. We 
> have hedgerows, and treelines, and perennial polycultures, and market 
> gardens laid out to catch and store water and nutrients. 
>
> I tend to not engage to extensively in theses dialogs. I am quite 
> busy with permacuture work, and helping people learn to garden a 
> better way. Yet, this stream of dialog is important. Broad statements 
> are almost always false.To state that market gardening is anthema in 
> permaculture is to set a dark precedent over our endeavors to 
> discover new ways to relate to our plant and each other. Without the 
> alternative of market gardens, we have only mass scale food systems, 
> or only home gardens. both lead to dependence and the threat of 
> hunger and malnutrion
> Application of permaculture to market gardening is leading to a much 
> more wholistic and sustainable and regenerative way of growing, 
> buying and eating, increasing biodiversiy and promoting health and 
> wellnes and food security all over the planet. long live the 
> permaculture market garden. We need thousands more. Darrell E. Frey
> Three Sisters Farm
> defrey at bioshelter.com
> www.bioshelter.com
>
> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society 
> Publishing, 2011
>
> On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 18:37:24 -0000, John D'hondt <dhondt at eircom.net> wrote:
>
> > Sorry Darrell but I side with April in this. If you export 
> vegetables > and thus nutrients from your land you need inputs. These 
> inputs could > be used for a food forest and once this was 
> established that would > recycle under it's own power. > For 
> thousands of years in China farmers did work with a closed > system. 
> They would go to market in the morning with a cart of produce > and 
> they would return in the evening with the nightsoil of their > 
> customers. Unthinkable now. But if you export nutrients even from the 
> > most fertile soil you run into serious problems after about 20 
> years. > John
> >
> > > well April, them's fightin words for sure..... but 
> seriously...... > > there is not enough mulch in all the world for 
> food forests as I have
> > > seen them. Now if you want to limit the term permaculture to some ideal
> > > dream world applications and be a purist to ecosystem energy equations,
> > > that is fine with me, but we will have very little common ground for
> > > disussion. If you want to discuss permaculture design a a profession
> > > that leads people to regenerative ecological solutions then we can
> > > disuss it. > > When I met Bill Mollison he advised me to develop 
> a market garden
> > > with the application of permaculture . seemed like good advice at the
> > > time, and so here I am still developing the finer points of Permacuture
> > > Market Gardening. > >
> > > Darrell
> > > Darrell E. Frey
> > > Three Sisters Farm
> > > defrey at bioshelter.com
> > > www.bioshelter.com
> > >
> > > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
> > > Publishing, 2011
> > >
> > > On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 10:06:30 +1100, A Sampson-Kelly
> > > <april at permaculturevisions.com> wrote:
> > > Market Gardens are wonderful, don't get me misquoted here,
> > >> but they are not the permaculture message. > >> Market gardens 
> export nutrients and organic matter, they are
> > >> constantly needing inputs to compensate for the exports. > >> as 
> we all know Permaculture design aims to be a closed nutrient cycle,
> > >> so when something like a gorgeous market garden is branded as
> > >> permaculture it muddies the message. > >> When you need to keep 
> importing nutrients and minerals and organic
> > >> matter you are starting to talk about extra "work" and extra
> > >> management. > >>
> > >> When I first came to this site in 1993 we spent 6 hours every second
> > >> weekend in summer just mowing the lawns,
> > >> we definitely invest a lot less work and time on this site now. 
> > >> So, there is no trouble with permaculture on my site and the 
> reduced
> > >> work load is clear here. > >> > 
> http://permaculturevisions.com/what-is-permaculture-2/905-2/the-difference-between-organic-gardening-and-permaculture/
> > >>
> > >> -- *April S-Kelly*
> > >> Additional Email: aprilskellymtkembla at gmail.com
> > >> Write: Permaculture Visions Cordeaux Rd Mt Kembla Village 2526 Australia
> > >> Facebook: Permaculture Visions Fan Page
> > >> Google+: MotherGoosePermaculture A-S-Kelly
> > >> We are a carbon-negative business. http://www.permaculturevisions.com
> > >> <http://www.permaculturevisions.com/>
> > >> *Please consider your environment before printing this email on
> > >> old-fashioned paper.*
> > >>
> > >> On 26/01/2014 2:22 PM, permaculture-request at lists.ibiblio.org wrote:
> > >> > Send permaculture mailing list submissions to
> > >> >  permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> > >> >
> > >> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > >> >  http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > >> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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> > >> >
> > >> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > >> >  permaculture-owner at lists.ibiblio.org
> > >> >
> > >> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > >> > than "Re: Contents of permaculture digest..."
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Today's Topics:
> > >> >
> > >> >     1. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture ( Darrell E. Frey )
> > >> >     2. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture ( Darrell E. Frey )
> > >> >     3. New residential PDC for 2014: Permaculture Design, Deep
> > >> >        Nature Connection, and Natural Health (Lawrence London)
> > >> >     4. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture (Michael Pilarski)
> > >> >     5. 9th Annual PDC, MMRF, Belize, Feb 10-22nd (christopher nesbitt)
> > >> >     6. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture ( Darrell E. Frey )
> > >> >     7. Re: The Trouble with Permaculture (Koreen Brennan)
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> >
> > >> > Message: 1
> > >> > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:23:04 -0500
> > >> > From: " Darrell E. Frey " <defrey at bioshelter.com>
> > >> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> > >> > To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org, Holger Hieronimi
> > >> >  <holger at tierramor.org>
> > >> > Message-ID: <20140125132304.99kczrwvfsowg8so at webmail.bioshelter.com>
> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed"
> > >> >
> > >> > I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
> > >> > describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have visited
> > >> > my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of 
> Permaculture Design,
> > >> > offered numerous critiques? and questioned where the "permaculture "
> > >> > was?
> > >> >    I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
> > >> > different associates, in various venues. We always teach permaculture
> > >> > as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
> > >> > schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture encompasses all
> > >> > aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many
> > >> > disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our
> > >> > ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is not how
> > >> > you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
> > >> > permaculture design . > >> > As a permaculture design 
> professional I help clients, starting from
> > >> > where they are, to achieve their goals to live a more ecologically
> > >> > sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a forest garden,
> > >> > sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. Some may mulch,
> > >> > sme may till. Generally they will do both in different gardens.?
> > >> > Sometimes it is just about what they eat and where they buy it, and
> > >> > what the do with "waste" But it also includes time management,
> > >> > succession planning, resource conservation, and a goal to achieve the
> > >> > yields the client seeks. > >> >
> > >> > So, back to the article in question, I say bravo! Let us read 
> such self
> > >> > critique with an open mind and seek to broaden the view of our
> > >> > associates. The experience the author describes predate the a
> > >> > forementioned Vlad by decades, and comes from people short on
> > >> > experience . > >> >
> > >> > ? A deep reading of Bill Mollison does not really promise no work
> > >> > gardening. Do not confuse his promotion techniques with real 
> advice. > >> > Yes, such presentation by Mollison may have led to 
> short sighted
> > >> > comprehension by novices? of permaculture, but I do not think he, or
> > >> > anyone else I have taught permaculture with promised a yield with no
> > >> > work. And we did not think mollison really suggested that entirely. I
> > >> > met Bill Mollison in 1981 and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my
> > >> > fledgling farm. He wrote in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great
> > >> > Work!" as he signed it for me. Work indeed!
> > >> >
> > >> > Darrell E. Frey
> > >> > Three Sisters Farm
> > >> > defrey at bioshelter.com
> > >> > www.bioshelter.com
> > >> >
> > >> > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
> > >> > Publishing, 2011
> > >> >
> > >> > On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
> > >> > <holger at tierramor.org> wrote:
> > >> > Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
> > >> >> critical with some expressions of PC-
> > >> >> the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though some of
> > >> >> the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience in
> > >> >> organic food production... > >> >>
> > >> >> Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The
> > >> >> designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/ etc.)
> > >> >> were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also
> > >> >> helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC
> > >> >> illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been one
> > >> >> after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since
> > >> >> this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some
> > >> >> systems and realize that not everything works as well in realiity as
> > >> >> described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but definitly not
> > >> >> the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC. > >> >>
> > >> >> Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one prominent
> > >> >> example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in thios
> > >> >> group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad courses"), and
> > >> >> its only through a few years of practice "on the ground",
> > >> >> establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing systems,
> > >> >> producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve
> > >> >> over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative
> > >> >> power of PC concepts get grounded. > >> >>
> > >> >> saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Holger
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request at lists.ibiblio.org escribi?:
> > >> >>> The Trouble with Permaculture
> > >> >>>
> > >> 
> http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what 
> the > >> >>> uninformed
> > >> >>> are up to
> > >> >> -- Holger Hieronimi - holger at tierramor.org
> > >> >> TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> > >> >> www.tierramor.org
> > >> >> Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> > >> >> Consultas y asesor?as
> > >> >> Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> > >> >>
> > >> >> _______________________________________________
> > >> >> permaculture mailing list
> > >> >> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> > >> >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> > >> >> list maintenance:
> > >> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > >> >> message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> > >> >> Google message archive search:
> > >> >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > >> >> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > >> >> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > >> >> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > >> >> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > >> >> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > >> >> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > >> >> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> > >> >> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > ------------------------------
> > >> >
> > >> > Message: 2
> > >> > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 13:23:04 -0500
> > >> > From: " Darrell E. Frey " <defrey at bioshelter.com>
> > >> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> > >> > To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org, Holger Hieronimi
> > >> >  <holger at tierramor.org>
> > >> > Message-ID: <20140125132304.99kczrwvfsowg8so at webmail.bioshelter.com>
> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed"
> > >> >
> > >> > I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
> > >> > describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have visited
> > >> > my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of 
> Permaculture Design,
> > >> > offered numerous critiques? and questioned where the "permaculture "
> > >> > was?
> > >> >    I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
> > >> > different associates, in various venues. We always teach permaculture
> > >> > as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
> > >> > schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture encompasses all
> > >> > aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many
> > >> > disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our
> > >> > ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is not how
> > >> > you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
> > >> > permaculture design . > >> > As a permaculture design 
> professional I help clients, starting from
> > >> > where they are, to achieve their goals to live a more ecologically
> > >> > sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a forest garden,
> > >> > sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. Some may mulch,
> > >> > sme may till. Generally they will do both in different gardens.?
> > >> > Sometimes it is just about what they eat and where they buy it, and
> > >> > what the do with "waste" But it also includes time management,
> > >> > succession planning, resource conservation, and a goal to achieve the
> > >> > yields the client seeks. > >> >
> > >> > So, back to the article in question, I say bravo! Let us read 
> such self
> > >> > critique with an open mind and seek to broaden the view of our
> > >> > associates. The experience the author describes predate the a
> > >> > forementioned Vlad by decades, and comes from people short on
> > >> > experience . > >> >
> > >> > ? A deep reading of Bill Mollison does not really promise no work
> > >> > gardening. Do not confuse his promotion techniques with real 
> advice. > >> > Yes, such presentation by Mollison may have led to 
> short sighted
> > >> > comprehension by novices? of permaculture, but I do not think he, or
> > >> > anyone else I have taught permaculture with promised a yield with no
> > >> > work. And we did not think mollison really suggested that entirely. I
> > >> > met Bill Mollison in 1981 and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my
> > >> > fledgling farm. He wrote in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great
> > >> > Work!" as he signed it for me. Work indeed!
> > >> >
> > >> > Darrell E. Frey
> > >> > Three Sisters Farm
> > >> > defrey at bioshelter.com
> > >> > www.bioshelter.com
> > >> >
> > >> > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
> > >> > Publishing, 2011
> > >> >
> > >> > On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
> > >> > <holger at tierramor.org> wrote:
> > >> > Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
> > >> >> critical with some expressions of PC-
> > >> >> the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though some of
> > >> >> the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience in
> > >> >> organic food production... > >> >>
> > >> >> Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The
> > >> >> designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/ etc.)
> > >> >> were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also
> > >> >> helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC
> > >> >> illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been one
> > >> >> after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since
> > >> >> this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some
> > >> >> systems and realize that not everything works as well in realiity as
> > >> >> described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but definitly not
> > >> >> the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC. > >> >>
> > >> >> Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one prominent
> > >> >> example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in thios
> > >> >> group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad courses"), and
> > >> >> its only through a few years of practice "on the ground",
> > >> >> establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing systems,
> > >> >> producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve
> > >> >> over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative
> > >> >> power of PC concepts get grounded. > >> >>
> > >> >> saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Holger
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request at lists.ibiblio.org escribi?:
> > >> >>> The Trouble with Permaculture
> > >> >>>
> > >> 
> http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what 
> the > >> >>> uninformed
> > >> >>> are up to
> > >> >> -- Holger Hieronimi - holger at tierramor.org
> > >> >> TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> > >> >> www.tierramor.org
> > >> >> Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> > >> >> Consultas y asesor?as
> > >> >> Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> > >> >>
> > >> >> _______________________________________________
> > >> >> permaculture mailing list
> > >> >> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> > >> >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> > >> >> list maintenance:
> > >> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > >> >> message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> > >> >> Google message archive search:
> > >> >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > >> >> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > >> >> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > >> >> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > >> >> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > >> >> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > >> >> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > >> >> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> > >> >> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > ------------------------------
> > >> >
> > >> > Message: 3
> > >> > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 16:45:20 -0500
> > >> > From: Lawrence London <lfljvenaura at gmail.com>
> > >> > Subject: [permaculture] New residential PDC for 2014: Permaculture
> > >> >  Design, Deep Nature Connection, and Natural Health
> > >> > To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > >> > Message-ID:
> > >> >  <CA+j2Q+B3K_mu0ksRJ7o3X+BKKcmjp1z8U08Wtvq-J0oFbAGuJg at mail.gmail.com>
> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> > >> >
> > >> > http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/pdc-2014/
> > >> >
> > >> > New residential PDC for 2014: Permaculture Design, Deep Nature 
> > >> > Connection,
> > >> > and Natural Health
> > >> >
> > >> > by Ludwig Appeltans on October 6, 2013
> > >> >
> > >> > in Awareness 
> <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/awareness/>, Climate
> > >> > Change <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/climate-change/>,
> > >> > consciousness<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/consciousness/>,
> > >> > Courses <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/courses/>, Earth Ways'
> > >> > Farm<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/earth-ways-farm/>,
> > >> > Education <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/education/>,
> > >> > Environment<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/environment/>,
> > >> > evolution <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/evolution/>, Forest
> > >> > Garden<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/forest-garden/>,
> > >> > Gardening <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/gardening/>, > 
> Natural >> > Pest
> > >> > Control
> > >> <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/natural-pest-control/>, Nature
> > >> > Connection > 
> <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/nature-connection/>, >> > News
> > >> > & Events <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/news-events/>,
> > >> > Organic<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/organic/>,
> > >> > Permaculture > 
> <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/permaculture/>, >> > Survival
> > >> > Skills <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/survival-skills/>,
> > >> > Tracking<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/tracking/>,
> > >> > Wilderness <http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/wilderness/>,
> > >> > Wildlife<http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/category/wildlife/>
> > >> >
> > >> > July 4th, 6PM? July 18th, 1PM  2014. Anam Cara, Inverness, Highland,
> > >> > Scotland. > >> >
> > >> > This holistic approach towards permaculture is a exciting new 
> >> > > combination. > >> > It reflects the pioneering permaculture 
> vision that Earth Ways has
> > >> > developed over the years. > >> >
> > >> > Permaculture starts with nature connection and is only 
> complete > when >> > people
> > >> > are as healthy as they can be. > >> >
> > >> > Permaculture is designing sustainable systems, modelled on 
> nature. > >> > Re-connecting with nature to better understand her is 
> an > essential >> > first
> > >> > step. > >> >
> > >> > I?m pleased to tell you that the course will be of very high 
> standards. > >> > Even  better than the last one with our new 
> addition to our > crew: >> > Klaudia
> > >> > van Gool. Ludwig Appeltans, Klaudia van Gool, Greg Sommer and Georgina
> > >> > Richardson will offer a fantastic 14 day intensive course at Anam
> > >> > Cara<http://www.anamcara.org>in Inverness. > >> >
> > >> > Learn about natural systems and deepen your understanding of 
> >> > > Permaculture
> > >> > Design, Forest Gardening and ecosystems. Be(come) connected to 
> > nature >> > and
> > >> > learn how to design a permaculture diet with Georgina > 
> Richardson. She >> > is a
> > >> > natural health chef. She will show us how to design ?a > 
> permaculture >> > diet?
> > >> > and feed us this way for the full 14 days enabling us to > 
> experience how >> > our
> > >> > body and mind feels when fed so healthily. Food that is good 
> for > the >> > planet
> > >> > AND good for us!
> > >> > You will also have the opportunity to spend some time 
> foraging, > >> > relaxing
> > >> > and exploring Scottish Highland?s nature, where you can discover the
> > >> > magnificent wildlife present in this stunning location. > >> >
> > >> > The delightful flavour of this Permaculture Design Course will 
> > be >> > upheld by
> > >> > the 4 awesome teachers working together, with the accents of Nature
> > >> > Connection and Natural Health making it a PDC with distinction. > >> >
> > >> > Upon successful completion you will be awarded a certificate in
> > >> > Permaculture Design from the Permaculture Association Britain. > >> >
> > >> > We?d love you to join us. > >> >
> > >> > More pictures from the last PDC?s can be seen here:
> > >> > http://www.earth-ways.co.uk/gallery/
> > >> >
> > >> > or here:
> > >> > 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/32369588@N07/sets/72157634771197666/<http://www.flickr.com/photos/32369588@N07/sets/72157634771197666/>
> > >> >
> > >> > <>
> > >> > FAQ
> > >> >
> > >> > *- Why would I choose this course over other PDC?s? *
> > >> >
> > >> > If you?re curious why I am so confident that this course is so 
> > >> > wonderful,
> > >> > please read on:
> > >> >
> > >> >     - Teaching quality is unusually high with 4 teachers and > 
> unusual >> > yet
> > >> >     effective teaching methods. We each teach from our strengths,
> > >> lifting the
> > >> >     level of the course higher, with more personal assistance. 
> > >> Please check out
> > >> >     the biography of the teachers to see what excellence we have to
> > >> share with
> > >> >     you. > >> >     - Perfect location; our venue is the 
> beautiful Anam
> > >> > Cara<http://www.anamcara.org>,
> > >> >     surrounded by the beautiful Scottish wildlife, which gives 
> > us >> > excellent
> > >> >     nature observation opportunities. > >> >     - Our course 
> gives you the opportunity to experience what > life can >> > be
> > >> >     like when we are treating our body to the healthiest and most
> > >> balanced diet
> > >> >     one can design on a normal household budget. We will also 
> > give you >> > the
> > >> >     tools you need to develop a permaculture diet. > >> >     
> - The course will be taught on the premises of a beautiful new
> > >> >     permaculture garden, which gives you an -on site- example of
> > >> how to change
> > >> >     an organic garden into a permaculture garden and practice the
> > >> permaculture
> > >> >     principles you?ll learn. > >> >     - A wide variety of 
> choice to make your practice design with a wide
> > >> >     variety of expertise available from the teachers. > >> >   
>   - Most Permaculture Design courses offer only the 72 hours tuition
> > >> >     required for the certificate. We also offer many more > 
> optional >> > learning
> > >> >     opportunities, making the course a holistic wonderful learning
> > >> experience. > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > ------------------------------
> > >> >
> > >> > Message: 4
> > >> > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST)
> > >> > From: Michael Pilarski <friendsofthetrees at yahoo.com>
> > >> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> > >> > To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > >> > Message-ID:
> > >> >  <1390693399.39730.YahooMailNeo at web142301.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> > >> >
> > >> > Darrell,? thank you for the comments. I concur with you completely.?
> > >> >
> > >> > I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it was a
> > >> bad article at all.? She lambasted permaculturists who don't know how
> > >> to garden, and rightly so.? She poked at some holes in the PC
> > >> ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.? We should all be alert for
> > >> dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such as every
> > >> pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food
> > >> forest). > >> >
> > >> > I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of Mike
> > >> Feingold's pc garden in the UK.? Mike's pc site looked good to me and
> > >> his gardening . His dialogue was good.? I am not sure what she was
> > >> complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked untidy. Perhaps
> > >> it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall garden at peak
> > >> productivity.? But for the amount of time he put into it, I suspect
> > >> the cost/yield ratio was good.? I am perhaps biased since Mike
> > >> Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal together.?
> > >> >
> > >> > here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9
> > >> minutes 37 seconds. > >> >
> > >> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Michael Pilarski
> > >> >
> > >> > ?
> > >> > Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> > >> > Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
> > >> > www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey
> > >> <defrey at bioshelter.com> wrote:
> > >> >   > I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
> > >> > describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have visited
> > >> > my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of 
> Permaculture Design,
> > >> > offered numerous critiques? and questioned where the "permaculture "
> > >> > was?
> > >> > ? I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
> > >> > different associates, in various venues. We always teach permaculture
> > >> > as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
> > >> > schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture encompasses all
> > >> > aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many
> > >> > disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our
> > >> > ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is not how
> > >> > you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
> > >> > permaculture design . > >> > As a permaculture design 
> professional I help clients, starting from
> > >> > where they are, to achieve their goals to live a more ecologically
> > >> > sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a forest garden,
> > >> > sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally a mix. Some may mulch,
> > >> > sme may till. Generally they will do both in different gardens.?
> > >> > Sometimes it is just about what they eat and where they buy it, and
> > >> > what the do with "waste" But it also includes time management,
> > >> > succession planning, resource conservation, and a goal to achieve the
> > >> > yields the client seeks. > >> >
> > >> > So, back to the article in question, I say bravo! Let us read 
> such self
> > >> > critique with an open mind and seek to broaden the view of our
> > >> > associates. The experience the author describes predate the a
> > >> > forementioned Vlad by decades, and comes from people short on
> > >> > experience . > >> >
> > >> > ? A deep reading of Bill Mollison does not really promise no work
> > >> > gardening. Do not confuse his promotion techniques with real 
> advice. > >> > Yes, such presentation by Mollison may have led to 
> short sighted
> > >> > comprehension by novices? of permaculture, but I do not think he, or
> > >> > anyone else I have taught permaculture with promised a yield with no
> > >> > work. And we did not think mollison really suggested that entirely. I
> > >> > met Bill Mollison in 1981 and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my
> > >> > fledgling farm. He wrote in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great
> > >> > Work!" as he signed it for me. Work indeed!
> > >> >
> > >> > Darrell E. Frey
> > >> > Three Sisters Farm
> > >> > defrey at bioshelter.com
> > >> > www.bioshelter.com
> > >> >
> > >> > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
> > >> > Publishing, 2011
> > >> >
> > >> > On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
> > >> > <holger at tierramor.org> wrote:
> > >> > Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
> > >> >> critical with some expressions of PC-
> > >> >> the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though some of
> > >> >> the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience in
> > >> >> organic food production... > >> >>
> > >> >> Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The
> > >> >> designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/ etc.)
> > >> >> were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also
> > >> >> helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC
> > >> >> illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been one
> > >> >> after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since
> > >> >> this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some
> > >> >> systems and realize that not everything works as well in realiity as
> > >> >> described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but definitly not
> > >> >> the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC. > >> >>
> > >> >> Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one prominent
> > >> >> example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in thios
> > >> >> group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad courses"), and
> > >> >> its only through a few years of practice "on the ground",
> > >> >> establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing systems,
> > >> >> producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve
> > >> >> over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative
> > >> >> power of PC concepts get grounded. > >> >>
> > >> >> saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Holger
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request at lists.ibiblio.org escribi?:
> > >> >>> The Trouble with Permaculture
> > >> >>>
> > >> 
> http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what 
> the > >> >>> uninformed
> > >> >>> are up to
> > >> >> -- Holger Hieronimi - holger at tierramor.org
> > >> >> TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> > >> >> www.tierramor.org
> > >> >> Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> > >> >> Consultas y asesor?as
> > >> >> Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> > >> >>
> > >> >> _______________________________________________
> > >> >> permaculture mailing list
> > >> >> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> > >> >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> > >> >> list maintenance:
> > >> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > >> >> message archives:? http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> > >> >> Google message archive search:
> > >> >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > >> >> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > >> >> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > >> >> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > >> >> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > >> >> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > >> >> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > >> >> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> > >> >> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > >> >
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > permaculture mailing list
> > >> > permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> > >> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> > >> list maintenance:
> > >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > >> > message archives:? http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> > >> > Google message archive search:
> > >> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > >> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > >> > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > >> > http://www.ipermie.net
> > >> > Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > >> > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > >> > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > >> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > >> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> > >> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > >> >
> > >> > ------------------------------
> > >> >
> > >> > Message: 5
> > >> > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:20:44 -0600
> > >> > From: christopher nesbitt <christopher.nesbitt at mmrfbz.org>
> > >> > Subject: [permaculture] 9th Annual PDC, MMRF, Belize, Feb 10-22nd
> > >> > To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > >> > Message-ID: <7571FF21-5F54-4CB4-A0A6-D21647B2FFB2 at mmrfbz.org>
> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> > >> >
> > >> >   This will be our 9th Annual Permaculture Design Course. MMRF has
> > >> been managed to agroforestry over the last 25 years and is one of the
> > >> oldest permaculture projects in Central America. Come take a PDC with
> > >> great teachers at a very well established permaculture project. > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > 9th Annual Permaculture Design Course, February 10th through 22nd,
> > >> 2014 February 10th through 22nd, 2014
> > >> >
> > >> > Place: Maya Mountain Research Farm San Pedro Columbia, BELIZE
> > >> >
> > >> > Instructors: Albert Bates, Marisha Auerbach, Nicole Foss and
> > >> Christopher Nesbitt with local guest instructors. > >> >
> > >> > Cost:USD1250/Belize$2500 includes organic farm fresh meals, all
> > >> course materials and expeditions*, comfortable accommodation in the
> > >> farm, and a certificate of Permaculture Design upon completion of the
> > >> course. > >> >
> > >> > For Details, or to register, please contact Christopher at
> > >> info(a)mmrfbz.org. > >> >
> > >> > Through lecture, discussion, small groups, site visits and hands on
> > >> experience, participants will gain the tools to create sustainable,
> > >> ecologically based homes, farms, businesses and communities. Tucked
> > >> into the foothills of the Maya Mountains, two miles up river from the
> > >> village of San Pedro Columbia in southern Belize, Maya Mountain
> > >> Research Farm is a working demonstration farm and registered NGO that
> > >> promotes sustainable agriculture, appropriate technology and food
> > >> security using permaculture principles and applied biodiversity. > >> >
> > >> > With over 25 years of organic management and conversion from an
> > >> abandoned cattle and citrus farm to a polyculture, MMRF is one of
> > >> Central Americas oldest permaculture farms. Students will get a
> > >> chance to see decades worth of design work applied at this venue. A
> > >> fun video of the 2009 PDC is here, and some footage from the 2010 PDC
> > >> on Mexican TV, in Spanish is here, and here. > >> >
> > >> > Teachers: Albert Bates is a former lawyer, paramedic, graphic
> > >> artist and author of eleven books on energy, environment and law, and
> > >> produced two films on ecovillages. He is the founder of the
> > >> Ecovillage Network of the Americas and was active in the creation of
> > >> the Global Ecovillage Network. He has lectured and universities and
> > >> government agencies and worked on natural buildings, village
> > >> infrastructure, and permaculture landscapes on 6 continents. He has
> > >> been teaching permaculture design courses since 1994. > >> >
> > >> > Marisha Auerbach has been actively practicing, studying, and
> > >> teaching Permaculture in the Pacific Northwest for over a decade,
> > >> specializing in food production, biodiversity, seedsaving, ecology,
> > >> and useful plants. Her practical experience has been gained from
> > >> living and working in both urban and rural locations. She currently
> > >> teaches permaculture courses at Oregon State University, Pacific
> > >> University, Bastyr University, and Portland Community College. > 
> >> Marisha works with many organizations including The City Repair
> > >> Project, Aprovecho Education Center, Lost Valley Education Center,
> > >> Fertile Ground Community Center, and Planet Repair. Marisha holds an
> > >> advanced certificate in Permaculture Aid Work and has participated in
> > >> permaculture projects from the forests of Vietnam to the Rocky
> > >> Mountains of the United States to the stressed conditions of 
> Haiti. > >> She can be found online at www.herbnwisdom.com. > >> >
> > >> > Nicole Foss is Senior Editor of The Automatic Earth, a big-picture
> > >> website. Since January 2008, she and her writing partner have been
> > >> chronicling and interpreting the on-going global credit crunch as the
> > >> most pressing aspect of our current multi-faceted predicament. The
> > >> site integrates finance, energy, environment, psychology, population
> > >> and real politik in order to explain why we find ourselves in a state
> > >> of crisis and what we can do about it. Nicole is also an
> > >> international speaker on energy and global finance. She has lectured
> > >> in hundreds of locations across North America, Europe, Australia and
> > >> New Zealand, and has made many media appearances in a variety of
> > >> countries. In addition, Nicole has been involved in teaching on
> > >> permaculture design certificate courses in Central America and
> > >> Europe. Prior to the establishment of The Automatic Earth, Nicole was
> > >> Editor of The Oil Drum Canada, where she wrote on peak oil and
> > >> finance. She also ran the Agri-Energy Producers' Associati
> > >>  on
> > >> >    of Ontario, where she focused on farm-based biogas projects,
> > >> grid connections for renewable energy and Feed-In Tariff policy
> > >> development. While living in the UK she was a Research Fellow at the
> > >> Oxford Institute for Energy Studies, where she specialized in nuclear
> > >> safety in Eastern Europe and the Former Soviet Union, and conducted
> > >> research into electricity policy at the EU level. She also has
> > >> significant previous experience practicing as an environmental
> > >> consultant. Her academic qualifications include a BSc in Biology from
> > >> Carleton University in Canada (where she focused primarily on
> > >> neuroscience and psychology), a post-graduate diploma in air and
> > >> water pollution control, the common professional examination in law
> > >> and an LLM in international law in development from the University of
> > >> Warwick in the UK. She was granted the University Medal for the top
> > >> science graduate in 1988 and the law school prize for the top law
> > >> school graduate in 1997. > >> >
> > >> > Christopher Nesbitt is the founder and director of Maya Mountain
> > >> Research Farm. He is a farmer, and a pioneer in tropical agroforestry
> > >> and permaculture, having lived and studied agriculture in Belize
> > >> since the mid 1980s. He has been engaged in agroforestry,
> > >> permaculture, renewable energy through his work on the farm and
> > >> elsewhere. Christopher worked for Green & Blacks, an organic
> > >> chocolate company, from 1997 to 2004 on issues related to organic
> > >> certification, Fairtrade certification and extension. He was a
> > >> founding member of Belize Organic Producers Association and has
> > >> worked as a consultant for the Government of Belize?s Ministry of
> > >> Health, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries Department. He represented
> > >> Belize in workshops in Nicaragua, Panama, Costa Rica and 
> Guatemala. > >> He installs photovoltaic and photovoltaic/wind hybrid 
> systems in
> > >> protected areas, schools, village level photovoltaic water pumps, and
> > >> teaches agroforestry. > >> >
> > >> > A scholarship for this Permaculture Design Course is being offered
> > >> by Maya Mountain Research Farm in memory of Anne Bulford. Anne
> > >> Bulford graduated from Antioch College, was active in organic
> > >> agriculture in Ohio, working at Ohio Ecological Food and Farming
> > >> Association, and died in November, 2008 of cancer. She has two boys,
> > >> Peter and Skyler, who live with Annes mother, Sally. Applicants must
> > >> be Belizean working in agriculture anywhere in Belize or the
> > >> communities adjacent to the Maya Mountains in Belize, and a farmer,
> > >> extension officer or community leader. To apply, please contact
> > >> Christopher Nesbitt with a description of the work you are doing, and
> > >> a resume or CV and explain why you would like to participate in this
> > >> course. > >> >
> > >> > *Fees for entry into National Parks or Archeological Reserves must
> > >> be paid by the students. > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > _____________________________
> > >> > Christopher Nesbitt
> > >> >
> > >> > Maya Mountain Research Farm
> > >> > San Pedro Columbia, Toledo
> > >> > PO 153 Punta Gorda Town, Toledo
> > >> > BELIZE,
> > >> > Central America
> > >> >
> > >> > Country code 501-630-4386
> > >> >
> > >> > www.mmrfbz.org
> > >> > www.facebook.com/MayaMountainResearchFarm
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > ------------------------------
> > >> >
> > >> > Message: 6
> > >> > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:30:55 -0500
> > >> > From: " Darrell E. Frey " <defrey at bioshelter.com>
> > >> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> > >> > To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>, Michael Pilarski
> > >> >  <friendsofthetrees at yahoo.com>
> > >> > Message-ID: <20140125203055.g34df5xpz448s8wo at webmail.bioshelter.com>
> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed"
> > >> >
> > >> > Thanks Michael. Hawthorn has eatable leaves!. Who knew
> > >> >
> > >> > Darrell E. Frey
> > >> > Three Sisters Farm
> > >> > defrey at bioshelter.com
> > >> > www.bioshelter.com
> > >> >
> > >> > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
> > >> > Publishing, 2011
> > >> >
> > >> > On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST), Michael Pilarski
> > >> > <friendsofthetrees at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> > Darrell,? thank you for the comments. I concur with you completely.?
> > >> >> I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it was a
> > >> >> bad article at all.? She lambasted permaculturists who don't know
> > >> >> how to garden, and rightly so.? She poked at some holes in the PC
> > >> >> ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.? We should all be alert for
> > >> >> dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such as every
> > >> >> pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food
> > >> >> forest). I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of Mike
> > >> >> Feingold's pc garden in the UK.? Mike's pc site looked good to me
> > >> >> and his gardening . His dialogue was good.? I am not sure what she
> > >> >> was complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked 
> untidy. > >> >> Perhaps it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall 
> garden at peak
> > >> >> productivity.? But for the amount of time he put into it, I suspect
> > >> >> the cost/yield ratio was good.? I am perhaps biased since Mike
> > >> >> Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal together.?
> > >> >> here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9
> > >> >> minutes 37 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Michael Pilarski
> > >> >>
> > >> >> ?
> > >> >> Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> > >> >> Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
> > >> >> www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey
> > >> >> <defrey at bioshelter.com> wrote:
> > >> >>   I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
> > >> >> describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have
> > >> >> visited my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of
> > >> >> Permaculture Design, offered numerous critiques? and questioned
> > >> >> where the "permaculture " was?
> > >> >> ? I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
> > >> >> different associates, in various venues. We always teach permaculture
> > >> >> as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
> > >> >> schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture encompasses
> > >> >> all aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many
> > >> >> disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our
> > >> >> ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is not how
> > >> >> you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
> > >> >> permaculture design . As a permaculture design professional I help
> > >> >> clients, starting from where they are, to achieve their goals to live
> > >> >> a more ecologically sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a
> > >> >> forest garden, sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally 
> a mix. > >> >> Some may mulch, sme may till. Generally they will do 
> both in
> > >> >> different gardens.? Sometimes it is just about what they eat and
> > >> >> where they buy it, and what the do with "waste" But it also includes
> > >> >> time management, succession planning, resource conservation, and a
> > >> >> goal to achieve the yields the client seeks. So, back to the article
> > >> >> in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self critique with an open
> > >> >> mind and seek to broaden the view of our associates. The experience
> > >> >> the author describes predate the a forementioned Vlad by decades, and
> > >> >> comes from people short on experience . ? A deep reading of Bill
> > >> >> Mollison does not really promise no work gardening. Do not confuse
> > >> >> his promotion techniques with real advice. Yes, such presentation by
> > >> >> Mollison may have led to short sighted comprehension by novices? of
> > >> >> permaculture, but I do not think he, or anyone else I have taught
> > >> >> permaculture with promised a yield with no work. And we did not think
> > >> >> mollison really suggested that entirely. I met Bill Mollison in 1981
> > >> >> and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my fledgling farm. He wrote
> > >> >> in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great Work!" as he signed it
> > >> >> for me. Work indeed!
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Darrell E. Frey
> > >> >> Three Sisters Farm
> > >> >> defrey at bioshelter.com
> > >> >> www.bioshelter.com
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
> > >> >> Publishing, 2011
> > >> >>
> > >> >> On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
> > >> >> <holger at tierramor.org> wrote:
> > >> >> Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
> > >> >>> critical with some expressions of PC-
> > >> >>> the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though some
> > >> >> of > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience
> > >> >> in > organic food production... >
> > >> >>> Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The >
> > >> >> designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/ etc.) >
> > >> >> were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also >
> > >> >> helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC >
> > >> >> illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been one >
> > >> >> after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since >
> > >> >> this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some >
> > >> >> systems and realize that not everything works as well in realiity as
> > >> >>> described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but definitly
> > >> >> not > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC. >
> > >> >>> Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one prominent
> > >> >>> example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in thios
> > >> >>> group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad courses"),
> > >> >> and > its only through a few years of practice "on the ground", >
> > >> >> establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing systems,
> > >> >>> producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve >
> > >> >> over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative >
> > >> >> power of PC concepts get grounded. >
> > >> >>> saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Holger
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request at lists.ibiblio.org escribi?:
> > >> >>>> The Trouble with Permaculture
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >> > 
> http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
> > >> >>>> a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what 
> the > >> >>>> uninformed
> > >> >>>> are up to
> > >> >>> -- Holger Hieronimi - holger at tierramor.org
> > >> >>> TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> > >> >>> www.tierramor.org
> > >> >>> Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> > >> >>> Consultas y asesor?as
> > >> >>> Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> _______________________________________________
> > >> >>> permaculture mailing list
> > >> >>> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> > >> >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> > >> >>> list maintenance:
> > >> >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > >> >>> message archives:? http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> > >> >>> Google message archive search:
> > >> >>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > >> >>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > >> >>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > >> >>> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > >> >>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > >> >>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > >> >>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with >
> > >> >> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and >
> > >> >> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> _______________________________________________
> > >> >> permaculture mailing list
> > >> >> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> > >> >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> > >> >> list maintenance:
> > >> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > >> >> message archives:? http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> > >> >> Google message archive search:
> > >> >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > >> >> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > >> >> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > >> >> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > >> >> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > >> >> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > >> >> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > >> >> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> > >> >> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > >> >> _______________________________________________
> > >> >> permaculture mailing list
> > >> >> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> > >> >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> > >> >> list maintenance:
> > >> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > >> >> message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> > >> >> Google message archive search:
> > >> >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > >> >> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > >> >> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > >> >> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > >> >> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > >> >> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > >> >> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > >> >> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> > >> >> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > ------------------------------
> > >> >
> > >> > Message: 7
> > >> > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 19:22:25 -0800 (PST)
> > >> > From: Koreen Brennan <cory8570 at yahoo.com>
> > >> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] The Trouble with Permaculture
> > >> > To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > >> > Message-ID:
> > >> >  <1390706545.88940.YahooMailNeo at web161004.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> > >> >
> > >> > I think my main objection to the article is that the author seems
> > >> to have interacted with only the most ignorant armchair
> > >> permaculturists and not looked at the positive. It's not a very
> > >> balanced article and comes across as a bit of sour grapes to me. ?I
> > >> do agree that there is dogma in permaculture and there are
> > >> assumptions being made by some in the movement. I agree we need to
> > >> document our results and am happy that activity is increasing. But
> > >> I'm not ready to throw out the concept of "lazy gardening" when I get
> > >> such huge yields in the first year with little work from some small
> > >> plots in my yard, ?by using the old standbys of sheet mulch,
> > >> hugulkulture, and unfamiliar (but delicious) perennial and tropical
> > >> vegetables (which are far more suited to my ecosystem than lettuce
> > >> and tomatoes). As Michael said, the work to yield ratio is very
> > >> attractive. Is it economically viable? It certainly cut down on my
> > >> fresh food bill, but I'm well aware that what I do in
> > >> >   my yard is not viable for a market garden. Using true cost
> > >> accounting and measuring inputs vs outputs, I made a very healthy net
> > >> profit on it for the planet and my own well being however. Am I
> > >> "wasting good urban farm land?" My yard was Florida sugar sand, til I
> > >> transformed it with the local organic waste stream. Many urban plots
> > >> contain depleted and compacted soil not to mention heavy metals and
> > >> chemicals - far from ideal farm land! Am I growing greens and fruit
> > >> instead of carbs? Guilty as charged, but I eat greens daily. What
> > >> would be the footprint for me to buy them instead of grow them? I can
> > >> buy rice in bulk once a month. I go to my garden daily for fresh
> > >> greens. Do I like food forests? Yes, love them (but in an urban area
> > >> would call them edible forest gardens as a more accurate term). Do I
> > >> wait years for them to be productive? That has never been my
> > >> understanding of how to design an urban forest garden, nor would it
> > >> be the preferred way to do
> > >> >   commercial agroforestry when possible to do otherwise. Do I think
> > >> that market gardening is not "good permaculture?" I'm well aware of
> > >> how much food my city consumes and where a good chunk of that
> > >> realistically is going to come from. We need hundreds of market
> > >> gardens that incorporate permaculture principles. ?I am doing my part
> > >> to make it easier for market gardeners to be successful. Meanwhile, I
> > >> garden because I love it and I love the yield from it. It offers
> > >> balance and a regular connection with the natural world.?
> > >> >
> > >> > There is a place for both market gardeners and back yard food
> > >> foresters. We do not have to fight or put each other down. :-) ?There
> > >> is so much good happening amongst new urban permaculturists who
> > >> haven't gardened much before but nonetheless are turning their lawns
> > >> into abundant jungles of edibles. What are they doing right? How can
> > >> that be improved upon? ? It's also really exciting to see the work
> > >> that Darrell Frey (I enjoyed your book, Darrell) and other market
> > >> gardeners and small farmers are doing as they combine the principles
> > >> of permaculture with their already substantial knowledge of farming.?
> > >> >
> > >> > Sometimes new designers pass judgment on the way I'm doing things
> > >> too - I suppose it is human nature to some degree. I just tell them -
> > >> "I will be very interested in seeing your project in 2-3 years. Be
> > >> sure to let me know how it goes!" with a friendly grin. :-) ?
> > >> > ?
> > >> > ?
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On Saturday, January 25, 2014 8:31 PM, Darrell E. Frey
> > >> <defrey at bioshelter.com> wrote:
> > >> >   > Thanks Michael. Hawthorn has eatable leaves!. Who knew
> > >> >
> > >> > Darrell E. Frey
> > >> > Three Sisters Farm
> > >> > defrey at bioshelter.com
> > >> > www.bioshelter.com
> > >> >
> > >> > Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
> > >> > Publishing, 2011
> > >> >
> > >> > On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 15:43:19 -0800 (PST), Michael Pilarski
> > >> > <friendsofthetrees at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> > Darrell,? thank you for the comments. I concur with you completely.?
> > >> >> I too read the article being talked about and didn't think it was a
> > >> >> bad article at all.? She lambasted permaculturists who don't know
> > >> >> how to garden, and rightly so.? She poked at some holes in the PC
> > >> >> ideology/dogmatism, and rightly so.? We should all be alert for
> > >> >> dogmatism and applying permaculture techniques blindly (such as every
> > >> >> pc design should include sheet mulch, a hugelkultur and a food
> > >> >> forest). I went and viewed the youtube she was criticizing of Mike
> > >> >> Feingold's pc garden in the UK.? Mike's pc site looked good to me
> > >> >> and his gardening . His dialogue was good.? I am not sure what she
> > >> >> was complaining about. Maybe it was because Mike looked 
> untidy. > >> >> Perhaps it wasn't as productive as a wall to wall 
> garden at peak
> > >> >> productivity.? But for the amount of time he put into it, I suspect
> > >> >> the cost/yield ratio was good.? I am perhaps biased since Mike
> > >> >> Feingold is a friend of mine and we taught a pdc in Nepal together.?
> > >> >> here is Mike Feingold's youtube if anyone wants to watch it, 9
> > >> >> minutes 37 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3R1BZVnD4M
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Michael Pilarski
> > >> >>
> > >> >> ?
> > >> >> Michael "Skeeter" Pilarski
> > >> >> Permaculture - Wildcrafting - Medicinal Herbs & Seeds
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Sign up for my newsletter at www.friendsofthetrees.net
> > >> >> www.facebook.com/michael.skeeter.pilarski
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:55 AM, Darrell E. Frey
> > >> >> <defrey at bioshelter.com> wrote:
> > >> >> ? I have to confess I have had similar experiences as the article
> > >> >> describes, many times over the last 30 years. Many people have
> > >> >> visited my market garden farm, who, with a limited view of
> > >> >> Permaculture Design, offered numerous critiques? and questioned
> > >> >> where the "permaculture " was?
> > >> >> ? I have been teaching permaculture design since 1987, with many
> > >> >> different associates, in various venues. We always teach permaculture
> > >> >> as a design system applied land, buildings,? businesses, farms,
> > >> >> schools lifestyles and regions and so on. Permaculture encompasses
> > >> >> all aspects of our human relationship to our planet and draws on many
> > >> >> disciplines and resources to achieve our goals consistant with our
> > >> >> ethics. As I heard Bill Mollison say in person in 1981, it is not how
> > >> >> you garden, it is just where you put the garden that makes a
> > >> >> permaculture design . As a permaculture design professional I help
> > >> >> clients, starting from where they are, to achieve their goals to live
> > >> >> a more ecologically sustainable lifestyle. Sometimes that includes a
> > >> >> forest garden, sometimes a biointensive garden, and generally 
> a mix. > >> >> Some may mulch, sme may till. Generally they will do 
> both in
> > >> >> different gardens.? Sometimes it is just about what they eat and
> > >> >> where they buy it, and what the do with "waste" But it also includes
> > >> >> time management, succession planning, resource conservation, and a
> > >> >> goal to achieve the yields the client seeks. So, back to the article
> > >> >> in question, I say bravo! Let us read such self critique with an open
> > >> >> mind and seek to broaden the view of our associates. The experience
> > >> >> the author describes predate the a forementioned Vlad by decades, and
> > >> >> comes from people short on experience . ? A deep reading of Bill
> > >> >> Mollison does not really promise no work gardening. Do not confuse
> > >> >> his promotion techniques with real advice. Yes, such presentation by
> > >> >> Mollison may have led to short sighted comprehension by novices? of
> > >> >> permaculture, but I do not think he, or anyone else I have taught
> > >> >> permaculture with promised a yield with no work. And we did not think
> > >> >> mollison really suggested that entirely. I met Bill Mollison in 1981
> > >> >> and again in 1990 when he spent a day at my fledgling farm. He wrote
> > >> >> in my copy of the Designer's Manual. "Great Work!" as he signed it
> > >> >> for me. Work indeed!
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Darrell E. Frey
> > >> >> Three Sisters Farm
> > >> >> defrey at bioshelter.com
> > >> >> www.bioshelter.com
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Author; Bioshelter Market Garden: A Permaculture Farm. New Society
> > >> >> Publishing, 2011
> > >> >>
> > >> >> On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 06:18:54 -0500, Holger Hieronimi
> > >> >> <holger at tierramor.org> wrote:
> > >> >> Why Bad? I think this article is a good one, althought it is very
> > >> >>> critical with some expressions of PC-
> > >> >>> the author is not uninformed, since she aparently read though some
> > >> >> of > the basic literature plus seems to have considerable experience
> > >> >> in > organic food production... >
> > >> >>> Its more than clear now that some of the "Mollsionisms" ("The >
> > >> >> designer becomes a recliner"/ "The problem is the solution"/ etc.) >
> > >> >> were great vehicles to draw atention back in the 80ies, but also >
> > >> >> helped to build "cult permaculture" & a cadre of enthusiastic PC >
> > >> >> illuminates described in the article. No problem...I have been one >
> > >> >> after my first PDC back in 1996....and I?m happy for that, since >
> > >> >> this motivated me (in my case) to actually try to establish some >
> > >> >> systems and realize that not everything works as well in realiity as
> > >> >>> described th the PC Designers Manual, a greant book but definitly
> > >> >> not > the "bible" and/or ultimate expression of PC. >
> > >> >>> Every course of some PC celebrities (Geoff Lawton is one prominent
> > >> >>> example) adds some more to this number (and I think nobody in thios
> > >> >>> group wants to qualify him as some body who gives "bad courses"),
> > >> >> and > its only through a few years of practice "on the ground", >
> > >> >> establishing designs, getting dirtty, maintainig developing systems,
> > >> >>> producing food, experiencing how systems actually work and evolve >
> > >> >> over time in different climates & contexts, that the imaginative >
> > >> >> power of PC concepts get grounded. >
> > >> >>> saludos desde Colombia (en este momento)
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Holger
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> El 24/01/14 04:14, permaculture-request at lists.ibiblio.org escribi?:
> > >> >>>> The Trouble with Permaculture
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >> > 
> http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-01-23/the-trouble-with-permaculture
> > >> >>>> a very bad article; Vlad fodder, awful - just to see what 
> the > >> >>>> uninformed
> > >> >>>> are up to
> > >> >>> -- Holger Hieronimi - holger at tierramor.org
> > >> >>> TIERRAMOR - Dise?o Integrado
> > >> >>> www.tierramor.org
> > >> >>> Dise?o de sistemas ecol?gicos
> > >> >>> Consultas y asesor?as
> > >> >>> Facilitaci?n de conferencias, seminarios, cursos y talleres
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> _______________________________________________
> > >> >>> permaculture mailing list
> > >> >>> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> > >> >>> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> > >> >>> list maintenance:
> > >> >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > >> >>> message archives:? http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> > >> >>> Google message archive search:
> > >> >>> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > >> >>> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > >> >>> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > >> >>> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > >> >>> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > >> >>> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > >> >>> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with >
> > >> >> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and >
> > >> >> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > >> >>
> > >> >> _______________________________________________
> > >> >> permaculture mailing list
> > >> >> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> > >> >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> > >> >> list maintenance:
> > >> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > >> >> message archives:? http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> > >> >> Google message archive search:
> > >> >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > >> >> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > >> >> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > >> >> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > >> >> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > >> >> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > >> >> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > >> >> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> > >> >> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > >> >> _______________________________________________
> > >> >> permaculture mailing list
> > >> >> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> > >> >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> > >> >> list maintenance:
> > >> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > >> >> message archives:? http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> > >> >> Google message archive search:
> > >> >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > >> >> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > >> >> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > >> >> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > >> >> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > >> >> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > >> >> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > >> >> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> > >> >> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > permaculture mailing list
> > >> > permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> > >> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> > >> list maintenance:
> > >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > >> > message archives:? http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> > >> > Google message archive search:
> > >> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > >> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > >> > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > >> > http://www.ipermie.net
> > >> > Avant Geared? http://www.avantgeared.com
> > >> > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > >> > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > >> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > >> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> > >> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > >> >
> > >> > ------------------------------
> > >> >
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > permaculture mailing list
> > >> > permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> > >> > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
> > >> list maintenance:
> > >> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > >> > message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> > >> > Google message archive search:
> > >> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > >> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > >> > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > >> > http://www.ipermie.net
> > >> > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > >> > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > >> > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > >> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > >> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> > >> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > >> >
> > >> > End of permaculture Digest, Vol 132, Issue 26
> > >> > *********************************************
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> permaculture mailing list
> > >> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> > >> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward
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> > >> Google message archive search:
> > >> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > >> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > >> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > >> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > >> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > >> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech
> > >> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with
> > >> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and
> > >> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > permaculture mailing list
> > > permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation 
> toward > list > maintenance:
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > > message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> > > Google message archive search:
> > > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > > http://www.ipermie.net
> > > Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of 
> landtech > > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use 
> systems with > integrated > elements for synergy, sustainability, 
> regeneration and > enhanced > nature-compatible human habitat ---
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> > list maintenance:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> > Google message archive search:
> > site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> > Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> > How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> > http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> > https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> > Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech 
> > pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with > 
> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and > 
> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat
>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> subscribe/unsubscribe|user config|list info|make a donation toward 
> list maintenance:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> message archives:  http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/
> Google message archive search:
> site: lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [searchstring]
> Permaculture Institute USA http://permaculture.org
> How to permaculture your urban lifestyle
> http://www.ipermie.net Avant Geared  http://www.avantgeared.com
> https://plus.google.com/+Avantgeared
> Permaculture: -- portal to an expanding global network of landtech 
> pioneers -- who are designing ecological land use systems with 
> integrated elements for synergy, sustainability, regeneration and 
> enhanced nature-compatible human habitat



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