toby at patternliteracy.com
Fri Nov 18 18:04:38 EST 2011
The choice is not limited to agriculture or foraging. There is a 3rd choice (if not more). Stable horticultural societies (gardeners, not farmers) existed for many thousands of years but were ignored by anthropologists until recently, considered just a brief transition state to agriculture. Permaculture, IMHO, is an attempt to create a horticultural society. That's what my lecture is about. It's pretty exciting stuff, since I think ag is fundamentally unsustainable, summed up in two questions: Name one ecosystem that is better off for having ag in it. And, how long can we keep doing that?
On Nov 18, 2011, at 1:01 PM, John D'hondt wrote:
> Seems to me that permaculture is a good step in the direction of
> hunter-gathering. My problem with hunter-gathering in Ireland is that it is
> not possible. I survived in the Scottish mountains for weeks at a time on
> what I could find. Hill walking in Irish mountains that were once as rich as
> the Scottish is severely disappointing in that there are no wild foods
> anywhere except maybe for a few deer miles away and impossible to stalk.
> Even the fish on the coast is going.
> So to survive it has to be agriculture and developement of permaculture.
>> On Nov 17, 2011, at 9:37 AM, Dieter Brand wrote:
>>> The argument about the superior health of the hunter gatherers is
>>> probably exaggerated or based on a small statistical base of a few
>>> archeological finds.
>> See Jared Diamond's article, "The Worst Mistake in the History of the
>> Human Race."
>> or mine, "Is Sustainable Agriculture an Oxymoron?"
>> Not exaggerated. Essentially all the data available show that the shift to
>> agriculture resulted in a huge spike in epidemic disease, shorter
>> lifespan, shrinkage in stature (suggesting poorer nutrition), tooth and
>> bone problems, arthritis, etc. There aren't a lot of sites, it's true,
>> probably no more than 40 or so that cover the transition, but they all
>> show the same thing consistently. We paid a huge price nutritionally for
>> the shift to agriculture (not to mention the loss of freedom, which is far
>> more significant to me).
>> Okay, I really am procrastinating on writing a tough section of the
>> patterns book. Back to it!
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