[permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 93, Issue 24

Claudia Joseph permie at earthlink.net
Wed Oct 27 09:40:53 EDT 2010


Hi Toby,
This is a good point to discuss further.
The wording on the certificate can vary.
I am delighted that this is finally coming to light.

The one I received from OAEC says that I completed a Permaculture Consultant''s Design Course.
My second one (issued by IIEA) says I completed a Permaculture Design Consultant course.  
I have given certificates that say "Certificate for the successful completion of an Urban Permaculture Design Course".
I don't feel that most people are ready to consult after they leave my course.  They need to practice, first.

The guideline I received from Scott Pittman when I inquired a few years ago did allow people to use the word permaculture in their work, following a course.
"Receiving the Permaculture Design Certificate confers on the recipient the right to use the word permaculture in pursuit of livelihood, such as teaching design, or consulting."

My experience is that a few people understand the material well enough to make this a useful and good rule to follow.
My message to students is that the certificate means that they are ready to begin practicing permaculture.

All this confusion makes it clear why the diploma system is a great next step for American permaculture.
How to sort out who is truly qualified and how to administrate a hierarchy is a tangled web.

To venture out onto a limb:
Does anyone ever deny a certificate to a student who has paid their fee and attended all of the classes, simply because they appear unable to understand the principles?

We have a lot of tricky territory to cover.
Permaculture has grown past its infancy and into adult responsibilities.
How we structure our professional organizations is the element in play, now.
Toby, I respect your leadership and support a standardized system that we can all recognize.
It will be our choice whether to participate or not and (at least) a recognized body of thought will exist to lure the academic field.

And one comment in support of the seedball approach - throwing out information and not knowing how it will be applied is something I think most teachers have experienced.


With respect and gratitude,
Claudia




On Oct 22, 2010, at 11:42 PM, permaculture-request at lists.ibiblio.org wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: Permaculture Design Course in Darjeeling Nov	14-28th!
>      (Toby Hemenway)
>   2. Re: Permaculture Design Course in Darjeeling	Nov	14-28th!
>      (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
>   3. official certification (paul wheaton)
>   4. Re: official certification (Cory Brennan)
>   5. Re: official certification (Dick Pierce)
>   6. Re: official certification (Killian O'Brien)
>   7. Re: official certification (Cory)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 11:45:55 -0700
> From: Toby Hemenway <toby at patternliteracy.com>
> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Permaculture Design Course in Darjeeling
> 	Nov	14-28th!
> Message-ID: <B37BEF55-61DA-41DB-849C-3603AD88FC04 at patternliteracy.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> Beeja and everyone,
> 
> A note of clarification: Taking a PDC does not make you a "certified permaculture designer." It's an introductory course. I urge people not to say that, as it's a false claim. My PDC certificate from Mollison says that I was now a "permaculture design trainee," and that's what the certificate means. It is the first step toward becoming a designer, which, in the system BIll set up, meant that after two years of additional, full-time work or its equivalent in design under a mentor, you could then receive a diploma in permaculture design, and then maybe call yourself a designer.
> 
> The PDC, at 72-100 hours or so of class, is roughly the same amount of class time as two college courses. If you took chemistry 101 and 102, you would never call yourself a chemist, right? (Ka-BOOM!) Same goes for the PDC.
> 
> BTW, attachments are always scrubbed from this list--there was no attachment. Good luck with the course, at any rate!
> 
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 17, 2010, at 6:26 AM, b e e j a ... wrote:
> 
>> Hello Fellow Earth Lovers,
>> 
>> For those of you interested to become a certified Permaculture Designer, we
>> are hosting another course this November in Darjeeling on 14th -28th. This
>> is the longest running PDC course happening in India for the last 7 years!
>> 
>> Come join the fun and help spread the awareness of sustainable lifestyle
>> design!
>> 
>> Attached is the flyer and registration form.
>> 
>> Hope to see you there!
>> 
>> Warm Regards,
>> Ameli
>> ...
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> Read the public message archives here:
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>> Command to put in your browser's Google search box to search these archives:
>> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search string (omit the brackets)]
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>> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
>> List contact: permacultureforum at gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 17:48:36 -0400
> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj at bellsouth.net>
> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Permaculture Design Course in Darjeeling
> 	Nov	14-28th!
> Message-ID: <4CC206B4.1090007 at bellsouth.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> On 10/22/2010 2:45 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
>> Beeja and everyone,
> 
>> BTW, attachments are always scrubbed from this list--there was no attachment.
> 
>> On Oct 17, 2010, at 6:26 AM, b e e j a ... wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello Fellow Earth Lovers,
>>> 
>>> For those of you interested to become a certified Permaculture Designer, we are hosting another course this
>>> November in Darjeeling on 14th -28th. This is the longest running PDC course happening in India for the last 7
>>> years!
>>> 
>>> Come join the fun and help spread the awareness of sustainable lifestyle design!
>>> 
>>> Attached is the flyer and registration form.
> 
> 
> Use the list's blog to post attachments. Register and log in then I will
> upgrade the user's status so he can post to the blog. At present comments are public.
> 
> For this reason I plan to set up an accompanying webforum also, wherein new users can post
> with attachments and upload documents and pictures.
> 
> So, all connected:
> list, blog, webforum
> 
> Permaculture Mailing List Blog
>>> Permaculture Mailing List Blog http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 16:47:07 -0600
> From: paul wheaton <paul at richsoil.com>
> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: [permaculture] official certification
> Message-ID:
> 	<AANLkTikXkukM_3JEJJ5LWFQOqz4wqYpfv3Mep7ThDuAN at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> The awkward part of all this is that there are PDCs that are billed as
> becoming a certified permaculture designer.  Like the one I took.
> Before attending the PDC I told people I was taking it to become a
> certified permaculture designer.  And afterward I told people that I
> was now a certified permaculture designer.
> 
> A couple of years ago I mentioned this on this list and heard this
> same thing:  "no - taking a PDC does not make you a certified
> permaculture designer."   So I double checked:  the ad was still up
> for the class I took and it still said I would be a certified
> permaculture designer.
> 
> I can see the need for more levels of certification.  I would really
> like to support that.   And I think that if you stick to saying that
> completing a PDC does not equate to a CPD then you will punish the
> people that are in the know and reward the people that are not.
> 
> So I hope I'm not pissing anybody off by saying that I'm going to
> assume that if somebody says "I'm a certified permaculture designer"
> I'm going to assume that they have completed a PDC and nothing formal
> beyond that.
> 
> As for the bit about two college classes vs. a degree:  Well, in the
> java world we have a SCJP (Sun Certified Java Programmer) and there
> are a bunch of one week courses (typically less than 40 hours)
> designed to get you to pass the exam.  And this is considered one of
> the toughest exams.  And then they have other, more advanced, exams
> for stuff like "Sun Certified Java Architect" and the like.
> 
> To move forward, I would like to make the suggestion of embracing the
> flaw that has occurred and building on it with things that are a bit
> more clear.
> 
> On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:45 PM, Toby Hemenway
> <toby at patternliteracy.com> wrote:
>> Beeja and everyone,
>> 
>> A note of clarification: Taking a PDC does not make you a "certified permaculture designer." It's an introductory course. I urge people not to say that, as it's a false claim. My PDC certificate from Mollison says that I was now a "permaculture design trainee," and that's what the certificate means. It is the first step toward becoming a designer, which, in the system BIll set up, meant that after two years of additional, full-time work or its equivalent in design under a mentor, you could then receive a diploma in permaculture design, and then maybe call yourself a designer.
>> 
>> The PDC, at 72-100 hours or so of class, is roughly the same amount of class time as two college courses. If you took chemistry 101 and 102, you would never call yourself a chemist, right? (Ka-BOOM!) Same goes for the PDC.
>> 
>> BTW, attachments are always scrubbed from this list--there was no attachment. Good luck with the course, at any rate!
>> 
>> Toby
>> http://patternliteracy.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 17, 2010, at 6:26 AM, b e e j a ... wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello Fellow Earth Lovers,
>>> 
>>> For those of you interested to become a certified Permaculture Designer, we
>>> are hosting another course this November in Darjeeling on 14th -28th. This
>>> is the longest running PDC course happening in India for the last 7 years!
>>> 
>>> Come join the fun and help spread the awareness of sustainable lifestyle
>>> design!
>>> 
>>> Attached is the flyer and registration form.
>>> 
>>> Hope to see you there!
>>> 
>>> Warm Regards,
>>> Ameli
>>> ...
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> permaculture mailing list
>>> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration here:
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>> Read the public message archives here:
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture
>>> Command to put in your browser's Google search box to search these archives:
>>> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search string (omit the brackets)]
>>> List Usage & Guidelines:
>>> http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
>>> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
>>> Permaculture Mailing List Blog
>>> http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
>>> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
>>> List contact: permacultureforum at gmail.com
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> Read the public message archives here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture
>> Command to put in your browser's Google search box to search these archives:
>> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search string (omit the brackets)]
>> List Usage & Guidelines:
>> http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
>> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
>> Permaculture Mailing List Blog
>> http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
>> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
>> List contact: permacultureforum at gmail.com
>> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 16:24:50 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Cory Brennan <cory8570 at yahoo.com>
> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] official certification
> Message-ID: <2040.52127.qm at web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> Every PDC I know of gives a certificate at the end of the course saying "Permaculture Design Course" and none of them say "trainee."? I was told by my teacher that I should apprentice for minimum two years to become a teacher, but not a designer. I personally felt I needed to apprentice longer than that before I took on teaching a full design course. But I did some designs well before I finished the two year apprenticeship and did pretty good. I knew when to go to people more expert than me if I had a question about something. I also had a pretty good idea of what I didn't know, and boned up and reviewed it, etc. I feel that jumping out there and starting to design increased my learning rate tremendously because I had to deal with real world situations and see what failed and what worked. 
> 
> I tell my students that they get the certificate when the course is done but that is only the beginning of their training.? I try to make clear what they still don't know at the end of the course and I try to make it real to them throughout the course that permaculture is a science that embraces many specialty sciences such as climatology, biology, etc, etc, etc. We offer apprenticeships and also encourage them to apprentice with others, to get multiple viewpoints and experiences. 
> 
> From my viewpoint, I knew so much more about conscious, sustainable design at the end of the course than the people i was designing for that I could call myself certified, compared to them. I also did the course over six months and read some of the key references during that time - in a two week course it's harder to do that. 
> I appreciate the depth of experience and skill that permaculturists with decades of experience have and am well aware and respectful of the difference between them and a new graduate. 
> 
> While I understand how much a new graduate doesn't know, I also can appreciate how much they do know compared to the average person. My goal as an instructor is to make sure my students actually know what a permaculture design needs to incorporate and are willing to go to experts (native plant specialists, natural builders, more experienced permaculturists, etc) to get the info they need in order to properly do the design. In my experience, I've never seen a new graduate take on a major project on their own. They do seem to know their limitations for the most part and partner up. A lot of them don't do anything beyond their own gardens. 
> 
> While I resonate with what you're saying, Toby, and I feel I understand why you would want to make the point, I just wanted to put in a plug for letting people have the certificate as I think overall it may do more good than harm. You may have had different experiences than me and if so, I'm listening. 
> 
> Cory 
> 
> 
> --- On Fri, 10/22/10, paul wheaton <paul at richsoil.com> wrote:
> 
>> From: paul wheaton <paul at richsoil.com>
>> Subject: [permaculture] official certification
>> To: "permaculture" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Date: Friday, October 22, 2010, 3:47 PM
>> The awkward part of all this is that
>> there are PDCs that are billed as
>> becoming a certified permaculture designer.? Like the
>> one I took.
>> Before attending the PDC I told people I was taking it to
>> become a
>> certified permaculture designer.? And afterward I told
>> people that I
>> was now a certified permaculture designer.
>> 
>> A couple of years ago I mentioned this on this list and
>> heard this
>> same thing:? "no - taking a PDC does not make you a
>> certified
>> permaculture designer."???So I double
>> checked:? the ad was still up
>> for the class I took and it still said I would be a
>> certified
>> permaculture designer.
>> 
>> I can see the need for more levels of certification.?
>> I would really
>> like to support that.???And I think that if
>> you stick to saying that
>> completing a PDC does not equate to a CPD then you will
>> punish the
>> people that are in the know and reward the people that are
>> not.
>> 
>> So I hope I'm not pissing anybody off by saying that I'm
>> going to
>> assume that if somebody says "I'm a certified permaculture
>> designer"
>> I'm going to assume that they have completed a PDC and
>> nothing formal
>> beyond that.
>> 
>> As for the bit about two college classes vs. a
>> degree:? Well, in the
>> java world we have a SCJP (Sun Certified Java Programmer)
>> and there
>> are a bunch of one week courses (typically less than 40
>> hours)
>> designed to get you to pass the exam.? And this is
>> considered one of
>> the toughest exams.? And then they have other, more
>> advanced, exams
>> for stuff like "Sun Certified Java Architect" and the
>> like.
>> 
>> To move forward, I would like to make the suggestion of
>> embracing the
>> flaw that has occurred and building on it with things that
>> are a bit
>> more clear.
>> 
>> On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:45 PM, Toby Hemenway
>> <toby at patternliteracy.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Beeja and everyone,
>>> 
>>> A note of clarification: Taking a PDC does not make
>> you a "certified permaculture designer." It's an
>> introductory course. I urge people not to say that, as it's
>> a false claim. My PDC certificate from Mollison says that I
>> was now a "permaculture design trainee," and that's what the
>> certificate means. It is the first step toward becoming a
>> designer, which, in the system BIll set up, meant that after
>> two years of additional, full-time work or its equivalent in
>> design under a mentor, you could then receive a diploma in
>> permaculture design, and then maybe call yourself a
>> designer.
>>> 
>>> The PDC, at 72-100 hours or so of class, is roughly
>> the same amount of class time as two college courses. If you
>> took chemistry 101 and 102, you would never call yourself a
>> chemist, right? (Ka-BOOM!) Same goes for the PDC.
>>> 
>>> BTW, attachments are always scrubbed from this
>> list--there was no attachment. Good luck with the course, at
>> any rate!
>>> 
>>> Toby
>>> http://patternliteracy.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Oct 17, 2010, at 6:26 AM, b e e j a ... wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hello Fellow Earth Lovers,
>>>> 
>>>> For those of you interested to become a certified
>> Permaculture Designer, we
>>>> are hosting another course this November in
>> Darjeeling on 14th -28th. This
>>>> is the longest running PDC course happening in
>> India for the last 7 years!
>>>> 
>>>> Come join the fun and help spread the awareness of
>> sustainable lifestyle
>>>> design!
>>>> 
>>>> Attached is the flyer and registration form.
>>>> 
>>>> Hope to see you there!
>>>> 
>>>> Warm Regards,
>>>> Ameli
>>>> ...
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> permaculture mailing list
>>>> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user
>> configuration here:
>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>>> Read the public message archives here:
>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture
>>>> Command to put in your browser's Google search box
>> to search these archives:
>>>> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture
>> [search string (omit the brackets)]
>>>> List Usage & Guidelines:
>>>> http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
>>>> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
>>>> Permaculture Mailing List Blog
>>>> http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
>>>> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
>>>> List contact: permacultureforum at gmail.com
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> permaculture mailing list
>>> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration
>> here:
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>> Read the public message archives here:
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture
>>> Command to put in your browser's Google search box to
>> search these archives:
>>> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search
>> string (omit the brackets)]
>>> List Usage & Guidelines:
>>> http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
>>> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
>>> Permaculture Mailing List Blog
>>> http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
>>> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
>>> List contact: permacultureforum at gmail.com
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration
>> here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> Read the public message archives here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture
>> Command to put in your browser's Google search box to
>> search these archives:
>> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search
>> string (omit the brackets)]
>> List Usage & Guidelines:
>> http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
>> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
>> Permaculture Mailing List Blog
>> http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
>> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
>> List contact: permacultureforum at gmail.com
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 19:08:36 -0500
> From: Dick Pierce <dickpiercedesigns at gmail.com>
> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] official certification
> Message-ID:
> 	<AANLkTik8r3=n-=nx62JhdwPMWm1rkyXj2cXP_DSsevAU at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> A topic of most import to me. Thanks for bringing it up - it needs to come
> up from time to time as the inadvertent use of Certification is reasonably
> rampant.
> 
> I fully agree with and support Toby's opinion and answer (which comes right
> out of the PDC curriculum, etc.). The PDC is a Permaculture Design
> Certificate, recognized in most places/organizations as the base course
> necessary to take advanced courses and to embark on what nominally/normally
> is a 2-year apprentice, intern, assistant, portfolio/syllabus-building term
> before applying for a PC Diploma in Australia or Certification in the UK and
> ?France? or via an informal honor system in the US and other lands.
> 
> Calling a person with a PDC "certified" is not correct, reduces those
> efforts and people that have a formal and rigorous certification/diploma
> program. I would request, as has been done in the past, that all PDC
> instructors/facilitators review their files, brochures, websites, course
> descriptions, etc. to check them to be sure they only refer to a PDC
> Certificate as the result of taking a PDC Course. A quick google of
> Permaculture "Certification" will reveal the number of references that need
> changing.
> 
> Thanks for listening, please take action.
> 
> Dick Pierce
> 
> On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 5:47 PM, paul wheaton <paul at richsoil.com> wrote:
> 
>> The awkward part of all this is that there are PDCs that are billed as
>> becoming a certified permaculture designer.  Like the one I took.
>> Before attending the PDC I told people I was taking it to become a
>> certified permaculture designer.  And afterward I told people that I
>> was now a certified permaculture designer.
>> 
>> A couple of years ago I mentioned this on this list and heard this
>> same thing:  "no - taking a PDC does not make you a certified
>> permaculture designer."   So I double checked:  the ad was still up
>> for the class I took and it still said I would be a certified
>> permaculture designer.
>> 
>> I can see the need for more levels of certification.  I would really
>> like to support that.   And I think that if you stick to saying that
>> completing a PDC does not equate to a CPD then you will punish the
>> people that are in the know and reward the people that are not.
>> 
>> So I hope I'm not pissing anybody off by saying that I'm going to
>> assume that if somebody says "I'm a certified permaculture designer"
>> I'm going to assume that they have completed a PDC and nothing formal
>> beyond that.
>> 
>> As for the bit about two college classes vs. a degree:  Well, in the
>> java world we have a SCJP (Sun Certified Java Programmer) and there
>> are a bunch of one week courses (typically less than 40 hours)
>> designed to get you to pass the exam.  And this is considered one of
>> the toughest exams.  And then they have other, more advanced, exams
>> for stuff like "Sun Certified Java Architect" and the like.
>> 
>> To move forward, I would like to make the suggestion of embracing the
>> flaw that has occurred and building on it with things that are a bit
>> more clear.
>> 
>> On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:45 PM, Toby Hemenway
>> <toby at patternliteracy.com> wrote:
>>> Beeja and everyone,
>>> 
>>> A note of clarification: Taking a PDC does not make you a "certified
>> permaculture designer." It's an introductory course. I urge people not to
>> say that, as it's a false claim. My PDC certificate from Mollison says that
>> I was now a "permaculture design trainee," and that's what the certificate
>> means. It is the first step toward becoming a designer, which, in the system
>> BIll set up, meant that after two years of additional, full-time work or its
>> equivalent in design under a mentor, you could then receive a diploma in
>> permaculture design, and then maybe call yourself a designer.
>>> 
>>> The PDC, at 72-100 hours or so of class, is roughly the same amount of
>> class time as two college courses. If you took chemistry 101 and 102, you
>> would never call yourself a chemist, right? (Ka-BOOM!) Same goes for the
>> PDC.
>>> 
>>> BTW, attachments are always scrubbed from this list--there was no
>> attachment. Good luck with the course, at any rate!
>>> 
>>> Toby
>>> http://patternliteracy.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Oct 17, 2010, at 6:26 AM, b e e j a ... wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hello Fellow Earth Lovers,
>>>> 
>>>> For those of you interested to become a certified Permaculture Designer,
>> we
>>>> are hosting another course this November in Darjeeling on 14th -28th.
>> This
>>>> is the longest running PDC course happening in India for the last 7
>> years!
>>>> 
>>>> Come join the fun and help spread the awareness of sustainable lifestyle
>>>> design!
>>>> 
>>>> Attached is the flyer and registration form.
>>>> 
>>>> Hope to see you there!
>>>> 
>>>> Warm Regards,
>>>> Ameli
>>>> ...
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> permaculture mailing list
>>>> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration here:
>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>>> Read the public message archives here:
>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture
>>>> Command to put in your browser's Google search box to search these
>> archives:
>>>> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search string (omit the
>> brackets)]
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>>>> http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
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>>>> List contact: permacultureforum at gmail.com
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> permaculture mailing list
>>> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration here:
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
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>> archives:
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>> brackets)]
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>>> List contact: permacultureforum at gmail.com
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> Read the public message archives here:
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>> Command to put in your browser's Google search box to search these
>> archives:
>> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search string (omit the
>> brackets)]
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>> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
>> List contact: permacultureforum at gmail.com
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> DickPierceDesigns at gmail.com
> SE-NE (summer) & Austin, TX (winter)
> Cell-512-992-8858 (all-season)
> www.DickPierceDesigns.com <http://www.dickpiercedesigns.com/>
> 
> Just Completed: 4 Courses of citizen Gardener-Basic. Next Course starts on
> Jan 15 - http://citizengardener.grouply.com/.
> 
> And, just started: Fall 2010 Permaculture Decign - through Dec 11. Local
> Food Grad Potluck & Celebration - Sun Dec 12 (TBA)
> 
> Next PDC starts on Jan. 24th; great Christmas present.
> 
> Dick's PC-Bio. on www.austinperm.com/
> You Tube Dick Pierce for video clips
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 21:59:05 -0400
> From: Killian O'Brien <admin at pri-de.org>
> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] official certification
> Message-ID:
> 	<7E471FF35774474AA10A2EEEF1CAB26A014A02640DA0 at P1EC1EVS03.HMC1.COMCAST.NET>
> 	
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> "Every PDC I know of gives a certificate at the end of the course saying "Permaculture Design Course" and none of them say "trainee."  I was told by my teacher that I should apprentice for minimum two years to become a teacher, but not a designer."
> 
> "The word "permaculture" can be used by anybody adhering to the ethics and principles expressed herein. The only restriction on use is that of teaching; only graduates of a Permaculture Institute can teach "permaculture"... "
> 
> Page x of the manual. Sufficiently vague. How 'bout someone just send an e-mail to Tagari? Nevermind. Done. (Hello Lisa, Bill, et al...)
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Killian O'Brien
> PRI-De
> admin at pri-de.org
> (313) 647-4015
> 
> killiankob at yahoo.com
> (760) 617-4693
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: permaculture-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:permaculture-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Cory Brennan
> Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 7:25 PM
> To: permaculture
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] official certification
> 
> Every PDC I know of gives a certificate at the end of the course saying "Permaculture Design Course" and none of them say "trainee."? I was told by my teacher that I should apprentice for minimum two years to become a teacher, but not a designer. I personally felt I needed to apprentice longer than that before I took on teaching a full design course. But I did some designs well before I finished the two year apprenticeship and did pretty good. I knew when to go to people more expert than me if I had a question about something. I also had a pretty good idea of what I didn't know, and boned up and reviewed it, etc. I feel that jumping out there and starting to design increased my learning rate tremendously because I had to deal with real world situations and see what failed and what worked. 
> 
> I tell my students that they get the certificate when the course is done but that is only the beginning of their training.? I try to make clear what they still don't know at the end of the course and I try to make it real to them throughout the course that permaculture is a science that embraces many specialty sciences such as climatology, biology, etc, etc, etc. We offer apprenticeships and also encourage them to apprentice with others, to get multiple viewpoints and experiences. 
> 
>> From my viewpoint, I knew so much more about conscious, sustainable design at the end of the course than the people i was designing for that I could call myself certified, compared to them. I also did the course over six months and read some of the key references during that time - in a two week course it's harder to do that. 
> I appreciate the depth of experience and skill that permaculturists with decades of experience have and am well aware and respectful of the difference between them and a new graduate. 
> 
> While I understand how much a new graduate doesn't know, I also can appreciate how much they do know compared to the average person. My goal as an instructor is to make sure my students actually know what a permaculture design needs to incorporate and are willing to go to experts (native plant specialists, natural builders, more experienced permaculturists, etc) to get the info they need in order to properly do the design. In my experience, I've never seen a new graduate take on a major project on their own. They do seem to know their limitations for the most part and partner up. A lot of them don't do anything beyond their own gardens. 
> 
> While I resonate with what you're saying, Toby, and I feel I understand why you would want to make the point, I just wanted to put in a plug for letting people have the certificate as I think overall it may do more good than harm. You may have had different experiences than me and if so, I'm listening. 
> 
> Cory 
> 
> 
> --- On Fri, 10/22/10, paul wheaton <paul at richsoil.com> wrote:
> 
>> From: paul wheaton <paul at richsoil.com>
>> Subject: [permaculture] official certification
>> To: "permaculture" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Date: Friday, October 22, 2010, 3:47 PM
>> The awkward part of all this is that
>> there are PDCs that are billed as
>> becoming a certified permaculture designer.? Like the
>> one I took.
>> Before attending the PDC I told people I was taking it to
>> become a
>> certified permaculture designer.? And afterward I told
>> people that I
>> was now a certified permaculture designer.
>> 
>> A couple of years ago I mentioned this on this list and
>> heard this
>> same thing:? "no - taking a PDC does not make you a
>> certified
>> permaculture designer."???So I double
>> checked:? the ad was still up
>> for the class I took and it still said I would be a
>> certified
>> permaculture designer.
>> 
>> I can see the need for more levels of certification.?
>> I would really
>> like to support that.???And I think that if
>> you stick to saying that
>> completing a PDC does not equate to a CPD then you will
>> punish the
>> people that are in the know and reward the people that are
>> not.
>> 
>> So I hope I'm not pissing anybody off by saying that I'm
>> going to
>> assume that if somebody says "I'm a certified permaculture
>> designer"
>> I'm going to assume that they have completed a PDC and
>> nothing formal
>> beyond that.
>> 
>> As for the bit about two college classes vs. a
>> degree:? Well, in the
>> java world we have a SCJP (Sun Certified Java Programmer)
>> and there
>> are a bunch of one week courses (typically less than 40
>> hours)
>> designed to get you to pass the exam.? And this is
>> considered one of
>> the toughest exams.? And then they have other, more
>> advanced, exams
>> for stuff like "Sun Certified Java Architect" and the
>> like.
>> 
>> To move forward, I would like to make the suggestion of
>> embracing the
>> flaw that has occurred and building on it with things that
>> are a bit
>> more clear.
>> 
>> On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:45 PM, Toby Hemenway
>> <toby at patternliteracy.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Beeja and everyone,
>>> 
>>> A note of clarification: Taking a PDC does not make
>> you a "certified permaculture designer." It's an
>> introductory course. I urge people not to say that, as it's
>> a false claim. My PDC certificate from Mollison says that I
>> was now a "permaculture design trainee," and that's what the
>> certificate means. It is the first step toward becoming a
>> designer, which, in the system BIll set up, meant that after
>> two years of additional, full-time work or its equivalent in
>> design under a mentor, you could then receive a diploma in
>> permaculture design, and then maybe call yourself a
>> designer.
>>> 
>>> The PDC, at 72-100 hours or so of class, is roughly
>> the same amount of class time as two college courses. If you
>> took chemistry 101 and 102, you would never call yourself a
>> chemist, right? (Ka-BOOM!) Same goes for the PDC.
>>> 
>>> BTW, attachments are always scrubbed from this
>> list--there was no attachment. Good luck with the course, at
>> any rate!
>>> 
>>> Toby
>>> http://patternliteracy.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Oct 17, 2010, at 6:26 AM, b e e j a ... wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hello Fellow Earth Lovers,
>>>> 
>>>> For those of you interested to become a certified
>> Permaculture Designer, we
>>>> are hosting another course this November in
>> Darjeeling on 14th -28th. This
>>>> is the longest running PDC course happening in
>> India for the last 7 years!
>>>> 
>>>> Come join the fun and help spread the awareness of
>> sustainable lifestyle
>>>> design!
>>>> 
>>>> Attached is the flyer and registration form.
>>>> 
>>>> Hope to see you there!
>>>> 
>>>> Warm Regards,
>>>> Ameli
>>>> ...
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> permaculture mailing list
>>>> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user
>> configuration here:
>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>>> Read the public message archives here:
>>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture
>>>> Command to put in your browser's Google search box
>> to search these archives:
>>>> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture
>> [search string (omit the brackets)]
>>>> List Usage & Guidelines:
>>>> http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
>>>> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
>>>> Permaculture Mailing List Blog
>>>> http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
>>>> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
>>>> List contact: permacultureforum at gmail.com
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> permaculture mailing list
>>> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration
>> here:
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>>> Read the public message archives here:
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture
>>> Command to put in your browser's Google search box to
>> search these archives:
>>> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search
>> string (omit the brackets)]
>>> List Usage & Guidelines:
>>> http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
>>> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
>>> Permaculture Mailing List Blog
>>> http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
>>> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
>>> List contact: permacultureforum at gmail.com
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration
>> here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> Read the public message archives here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture
>> Command to put in your browser's Google search box to
>> search these archives:
>> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search
>> string (omit the brackets)]
>> List Usage & Guidelines:
>> http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
>> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
>> Permaculture Mailing List Blog
>> http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
>> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
>> List contact: permacultureforum at gmail.com
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> Read the public message archives here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture
> Command to put in your browser's Google search box to search these archives:
> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search string (omit the brackets)]
> List Usage & Guidelines:
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> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> List contact: permacultureforum at gmail.com
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 20:42:29 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Cory <cory8570 at yahoo.com>
> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] official certification
> Message-ID: <181896.55847.qm at web52603.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> Thank you for your clarity. There is quite a lot of confusion around the term. I would love to see a formal certification or diploma process established in the US. Meanwhile I will continue to push the concept of honor system (which is a great way to express it) and facilitate apprenticeships and continued education which to me will never stop. The natural world is a teacher of immense depth and width. 
> C
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 22, 2010, at 8:08 PM, Dick Pierce <dickpiercedesigns at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> A topic of most import to me. Thanks for bringing it up - it needs to come
> up from time to time as the inadvertent use of Certification is reasonably
> rampant.
> 
> I fully agree with and support Toby's opinion and answer (which comes right
> out of the PDC curriculum, etc.). The PDC is a Permaculture Design
> Certificate, recognized in most places/organizations as the base course
> necessary to take advanced courses and to embark on what nominally/normally
> is a 2-year apprentice, intern, assistant, portfolio/syllabus-building term
> before applying for a PC Diploma in Australia or Certification in the UK and
> ?France? or via an informal honor system in the US and other lands.
> 
> Calling a person with a PDC "certified" is not correct, reduces those
> efforts and people that have a formal and rigorous certification/diploma
> program. I would request, as has been done in the past, that all PDC
> instructors/facilitators review their files, brochures, websites, course
> descriptions, etc. to check them to be sure they only refer to a PDC
> Certificate as the result of taking a PDC Course. A quick google of
> Permaculture "Certification" will reveal the number of references that need
> changing.
> 
> Thanks for listening, please take action.
> 
> Dick Pierce
> 
> On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 5:47 PM, paul wheaton <paul at richsoil.com> wrote:
> 
> The awkward part of all this is that there are PDCs that are billed as
> becoming a certified permaculture designer.  Like the one I took.
> Before attending the PDC I told people I was taking it to become a
> certified permaculture designer.  And afterward I told people that I
> was now a certified permaculture designer.
> 
> A couple of years ago I mentioned this on this list and heard this
> same thing:  "no - taking a PDC does not make you a certified
> permaculture designer."   So I double checked:  the ad was still up
> for the class I took and it still said I would be a certified
> permaculture designer.
> 
> I can see the need for more levels of certification.  I would really
> like to support that.   And I think that if you stick to saying that
> completing a PDC does not equate to a CPD then you will punish the
> people that are in the know and reward the people that are not.
> 
> So I hope I'm not pissing anybody off by saying that I'm going to
> assume that if somebody says "I'm a certified permaculture designer"
> I'm going to assume that they have completed a PDC and nothing formal
> beyond that.
> 
> As for the bit about two college classes vs. a degree:  Well, in the
> java world we have a SCJP (Sun Certified Java Programmer) and there
> are a bunch of one week courses (typically less than 40 hours)
> designed to get you to pass the exam.  And this is considered one of
> the toughest exams.  And then they have other, more advanced, exams
> for stuff like "Sun Certified Java Architect" and the like.
> 
> To move forward, I would like to make the suggestion of embracing the
> flaw that has occurred and building on it with things that are a bit
> more clear.
> 
> On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:45 PM, Toby Hemenway
> <toby at patternliteracy.com> wrote:
> Beeja and everyone,
> 
> A note of clarification: Taking a PDC does not make you a "certified
> permaculture designer." It's an introductory course. I urge people not to
> say that, as it's a false claim. My PDC certificate from Mollison says that
> I was now a "permaculture design trainee," and that's what the certificate
> means. It is the first step toward becoming a designer, which, in the system
> BIll set up, meant that after two years of additional, full-time work or its
> equivalent in design under a mentor, you could then receive a diploma in
> permaculture design, and then maybe call yourself a designer.
> 
> The PDC, at 72-100 hours or so of class, is roughly the same amount of
> class time as two college courses. If you took chemistry 101 and 102, you
> would never call yourself a chemist, right? (Ka-BOOM!) Same goes for the
> PDC.
> 
> BTW, attachments are always scrubbed from this list--there was no
> attachment. Good luck with the course, at any rate!
> 
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 17, 2010, at 6:26 AM, b e e j a ... wrote:
> 
> Hello Fellow Earth Lovers,
> 
> For those of you interested to become a certified Permaculture Designer,
> we
> are hosting another course this November in Darjeeling on 14th -28th.
> This
> is the longest running PDC course happening in India for the last 7
> years!
> 
> Come join the fun and help spread the awareness of sustainable lifestyle
> design!
> 
> Attached is the flyer and registration form.
> 
> Hope to see you there!
> 
> Warm Regards,
> Ameli
> ...
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> Read the public message archives here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture
> Command to put in your browser's Google search box to search these
> archives:
> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search string (omit the
> brackets)]
> List Usage & Guidelines:
> http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
> Permaculture Mailing List Blog
> http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> List contact: permacultureforum at gmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> Read the public message archives here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture
> Command to put in your browser's Google search box to search these
> archives:
> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search string (omit the
> brackets)]
> List Usage & Guidelines:
> http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
> Permaculture Mailing List Blog
> http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> List contact: permacultureforum at gmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> Read the public message archives here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture
> Command to put in your browser's Google search box to search these
> archives:
> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search string (omit the
> brackets)]
> List Usage & Guidelines:
> http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
> Permaculture Mailing List Blog
> http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> List contact: permacultureforum at gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> DickPierceDesigns at gmail.com
> SE-NE (summer) & Austin, TX (winter)
> Cell-512-992-8858 (all-season)
> www.DickPierceDesigns.com <http://www.dickpiercedesigns.com/>
> 
> Just Completed: 4 Courses of citizen Gardener-Basic. Next Course starts on
> Jan 15 - http://citizengardener.grouply.com/.
> 
> And, just started: Fall 2010 Permaculture Decign - through Dec 11. Local
> Food Grad Potluck & Celebration - Sun Dec 12 (TBA)
> 
> Next PDC starts on Jan. 24th; great Christmas present.
> 
> Dick's PC-Bio. on www.austinperm.com/
> You Tube Dick Pierce for video clips
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> Read the public message archives here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture
> Command to put in your browser's Google search box to search these archives:
> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search string (omit the brackets)]
> List Usage & Guidelines:
> http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
> Permaculture Mailing List Blog
> http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> List contact: permacultureforum at gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user configuration here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
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> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture [search string (omit the brackets)]
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> List contact: permacultureforum at gmail.com
> 
> 
> End of permaculture Digest, Vol 93, Issue 24
> ********************************************




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