[permaculture] deterring Deer

wenshidi at yahoo.co.uk wenshidi at yahoo.co.uk
Sat Nov 27 20:48:58 EST 2010


There is a document over at a new private educational tracker that i have recently joined called:

California Department of Fish and Game - A Gardener’s Guide to Preventing Deer Damage [1 eBook (PDF)]
Description


http://www.dfg.ca.gov/keepmewild/index.html

Wild Animals Don’t Need Your Handouts.
They Need Your Respect.

You may not realize it—a simple bag of garbage, bowl of pet food, or plate of leftovers left outside your home or vacation site, can cause severe harm to wildlife.

Whether you live in a city or a rural part of California, wild animals are your neighbors. Most wild animals will not bother you. They naturally fear humans and keep their distance—so long as they remain fully wild.

But if wild animals have access to human food and garbage, they want more and more. They lose their natural fear of humans and can become aggressive.

If bears and other wild animals damage property or threaten human safety, they might be killed. Allowing wild animals access to human food is dead wrong.

Please – stash your food and trash.
Keep them wild.

By the way the address of the private torrent tracker is 

http://thegeeks.bz/browse.php

I am new to the tracker and do not yet have any invites to offer, but could probably lay my hands on a few for anybody interested.  Alternatively, I could just download the file and forward it to you as it is only a few MB and will not affect my ratio.

Sorry if this resource has been mentioned already but I was unsubscribed for a few weeks while I was away visiting some tropical orchards of SW Thailand.

Chris

--- On Wed, 11/3/10, A Sampson-Kelly <april at permaculturevisions.com> wrote:

> From: A Sampson-Kelly <april at permaculturevisions.com>
> Subject: [permaculture] deterring Deer
> To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Wednesday, November 3, 2010, 5:11 PM
> deterring deer.
> One of my students in Humansville MO wrote uses chokes
> (jerusalem 
> artichokes) to deter the deer, he plants them in a boundary
> bed of 3m 
> deep and says the deer hate moving through the chokes.
> In Sweden they use urine of wolf/dog/man along the roadside
> to deter 
> them from venturing on the road.
> Here we use solar powered electric fencing in a maze set-up
> so they 
> can't get through easily even if the break a section.
> 
> April S-Kelly PermacultureVisions.com
> 
> 
> 
> On 2/11/2010 11:37 PM, permaculture-request at lists.ibiblio.org
> wrote:
> > Send permaculture mailing list submissions to
> >     permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web,
> visit
> >     http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body
> 'help' to
> >     permaculture-request at lists.ibiblio.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> >     permaculture-owner at lists.ibiblio.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is
> more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of permaculture digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >     1. Re: Moles, Voles and
> Gophers and deers (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
> >     2. Re: Moles, Voles and
> Gophers and Deer (Paul Cross)
> >     3. Re: hierarchy (Joan
> Stevens)
> >     4. Re: hierarchies and
> networks (Cory Brennan)
> >     5. Re: Permaculture in
> Guatemala (Hannah Roessler)
> >     6. moles, voles, gophers, and
> deer, oh my (Rain Tenaqiya)
> >     7. Re: hierarchies and
> networks (Cory Brennan)
> >     8. Re: Moles, Voles and
> Gophers and deers (Keith Johnson)
> >     9. Fwd: Permaculture in and
> around Washington, DC (L. Santoyo)
> >    10. Re: Fwd: Permaculture in and around
> Washington, DC
> >        (chauncey williams)
> >
> >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 14:19:58 -0400
> > From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr."<venaurafarm at bellsouth.net>
> > To: permaculture<permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Moles, Voles and Gophers
> and deers
> > Message-ID:<4CCF04CE.4040204 at bellsouth.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
> format=flowed
> >
> > On 10/31/2010 3:32 PM, Cuauhtemoc Landeros wrote:
> >> Does anyone know about how to get rid, remove or
> deter voles, moles, gophers
> >> or deers.
> > Deer:
> >
> > Build a deer fence, non-electrified.
> > Use 10' posts, cedar or locust or other slow rotting
> wood or buy
> > 8' (minimum) or 10' Steel T-Posts from farm supply
> outlets. Place the
> > posts about 15 feet apart and attach 6' or 7' foot
> dogwire (2X4 welded
> > wire fencing, the cheapest available) to it. For
> additional coverage
> > weave tree branches (cedar is great) within the
> fencing for additional
> > height .
> > Or just forget the metal fencing components and use
> wood posts and rails
> > and weave tree branches within the rails for coverage,
> replenished as
> > necessary.
> >
> > Gophers: trap them, relocate or feed to vultures or
> compost pile
> >
> > Voles, never seen one. Moles, lik fire ants are
> Natures little rototillers
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 12:13:03 -0600
> > From: Paul Cross<charybda at newmex.com>
> > To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Moles, Voles and Gophers
> and Deer
> > Message-ID:<4CCF032F.9040506 at newmex.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
> format=flowed
> >
> > I've concluded that deer are only fully deterred by
> physical barriers.
> > You can cage or wrap individual trees. Or you can
> fence an entire field,
> > but it has to be higher than they will jump, and they
> sure can jump
> > high! Here I make the fences 7.5'/2.3m tall. I have
> not had success with
> > shorter baited electric fences, allegedly deer
> resistant plantings, or
> > deterring scents. I'm not sure if keeping dogs is
> cheaper than fencing,
> > but a couple of dogs will keep deer away most of the
> time.
> >
> > For those subterranean critters, I am sorry to say
> that trapping and
> > poisoning are all that has worked here.
> >
> > In organic certified areas, we use "Black Hole" traps
> baited with peanut
> > butter. It is a lot of work finding the main tunnels,
> setting up traps,
> > checking the traps, etc. But it is effective. The
> black hole traps are
> > easily located by an internet search so you can see
> what they look like.
> > They last for years.
> >
> > You can trench and fence around an area to discourage
> burrowing animals
> > from crossing over the area. A trench 2'/60cm deep
> with wire mesh on one
> > side will give two means of protection. First, when
> the pest digs out to
> > find an open trench their instinct is to plug the hole
> and turn around.
> > Next they would not get through the wire mesh if they
> tried. I have not
> > tried this technique.
> >
> > In non-organic areas I got licensed to use aluminum
> phosphide (aka
> > Fumitoxin.) But I have yet to actually use it. It is a
> dangerous
> > substance (hence the need for training and licensing)
> but has the
> > advantage of having little to no danger of a secondary
> poisoning if
> > another animal were to find and eat the carcass of the
> dead rodent. You
> > have to be careful not to use it where there are
> burrowing owls using an
> > abandoned hole. That is easy to see because there will
> be owl scat
> > around the burrow. You should also be aware of ferrets
> it there are
> > ferrets in your area. You want to keep the ferrets and
> owls.
> >
> > Cats, owls, coyotes, and dogs are all a little bit
> helpful in reducing
> > voles and gophers. But I have zero tolerance for these
> pests in any
> > perennial area. I've lost thousands of dollars due to
> killed fruit trees
> > until I decided to trap. I make 100% of my living
> through growing and
> > cannot afford to have such losses that those pests can
> create. I do have
> > wild areas where those pests are allowed to exist, but
> they cannot be
> > tolerated in production areas.
> >
> > Paul Cross
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 11:52:16 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: Joan Stevens<mamabotanica at sbcglobal.net>
> > To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchy
> > Message-ID:<121264.26346.qm at web81201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >
> > I am jumping in where I have little background on
> where the?conversation has
> > gone - the hazards of those who only?pop into this
> listserve every once in a
> > while.
> >
> > There are some great?examples of hierarchy in the
> natural world.? How about the
> > way your body works - an assemblage of organs and
> systems that are
> > controlled/prioritized by the brain (mostly)?? Or?a
> lovely example from?Janine
> > Benyus (author of Biomimicry) of how muscle tissue is
> organized - smaller
> > bundles arranged into?larger groups that all?perform
> their specific function in
> > service to the larger whole (also ultimately directed
> by the nervous
> > system/brain).
> >
> > Anyway, I'm a fan for not following any dogma about
> the "right way" to
> > organize.? Seems like as permaculturists we ought to
> be flexible enough to
> > recognize that difference purposes also require
> different kinds of structure. I
> > wouldn't want my body organized by consensus.? You
> think?your digits would
> > willingly give themselves up to save?your core body
> temperature?? Doubt it. and
> > sometimes that's what's required to save the
> organism.
> > My $.02
> > Joan
> >
> > ?"...the greatest change we need to make is from
> consumption to production, even
> > if on a small scale, in our own gardens. If only 10%
> of us do this, there is
> > enough for everyone.
> > Hence the futility of revolutionaries who have no
> gardens, who depend on the
> > very system they attack, and who produce words and
> bullets, not food and
> > shelter."
> >
> >
> >
> > - Bill Mollison
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 12:08:53 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: Cory Brennan<cory8570 at yahoo.com>
> > To: permaculture<permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
> > Message-ID:<840321.13634.qm at web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> >
> > Standards only become isms when they are ossified or
> become controlled by entrenched, heirarchical vested
> interests and people forget where those standards came from.
> How about as part of the standards, we create
> >
> > 1. a review and evolution process based on results and
> workability, so that the subject can continue to evolve as
> appropriate
> >
> > 2. a curriculum that enables people to think with the
> subject rather than rotely learn it
> >
> > #2 is one reason we focus on teaching principles of
> permaculture as the core curriculum, focusing on showing how
> many ways and in how many sectors they can be applied. Once
> one understands the basic laws of natural systems, and how
> to observe those systems, one is not nearly as likely to
> fall for "isms".
> >
> > If we focus on achieving multiple intelligence
> understanding of natural systems, we create life long
> students of those systems, rather than students of
> "isms".  The only real way to apply permaculture is by
> observing the system, there is no way around it. That is why
> I'm so thrilled with this subject, because to the degree we
> do that, we cannot end up with an "ism."
> >
> > Cory
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Mon, 11/1/10, jamesdavid Sneed<harvestcircle at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> From: jamesdavid Sneed<harvestcircle at hotmail.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and
> networks
> >> To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> >> Date: Monday, November 1, 2010, 11:03 AM
> >>
> >> Both your messages are important things to
> consider. I
> >> suspect that if a standard of organization is
> implemented
> >> for permaculture it will be a sign that it has
> become an
> >> "ism" instead of a way of living. The ism tends to
> become a
> >> creature unto itself, and the original goals can
> suffer as a
> >> result.
> >>
> >>> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 21:25:26 -0400
> >>> From: lflj at bellsouth.net
> >>> To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> >>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and
> networks
> >>>
> >>> On 10/31/2010 5:54 PM, Toby Hemenway wrote:
> >>>> One subject we touched on in the recent
> >> certification thread was new and old tools for
> change, and
> >> the difference
> >>>> between hierarchical and decentralized
> >> organizations and tools. I'd said that I once had
> high hopes
> >> for decentralized
> >>>> leadership tools, like consensus, but was
> >> disappointed by how rarely they live up to their
> promise.
> >> I've been
> >>>> skeptical of the value of these and
> similar
> >> methods to actually produce change, and have found
> the
> >> older
> >>>> tools--strong leadership, old-style
> voting--at
> >> least as effective (though I still prefer
> inclusive versions
> >> of these
> >>>> tools to exclusive).
> >>> They say that the world is run by those who
> show up.
> >>> And, freedom of the press belong to those who
> own
> >> one.
> >>> However, these thoughts have been circulating
> lately:
> >> a permaculture heirarchical oversight
> organization
> >>> that offers, like a governmental agencies that
> have no
> >> teeth and only can offer recommendations at best
> to
> >>> those who do have the power to put laws, rule
> and
> >> regulations in place.
> >>> You vote with your feet. Permaculture
> teachers,
> >> organizations, consultants and designers and
> anyone who
> >> would hire a
> >>> permaculture professional simply could require
> that
> >> they have proven expertise, knowledge and a
> certificate(s)
> >> of having
> >>> completed training and fieldwork before being
> hired.
> >> This phoo could help those professionals in
> training by
> >> offering a
> >>> set of permaculture standards, similar to the
> Organic
> >> Rule for USDA certified organic farms and an
> outline and
> >>> description of standard coursework that should
> be
> >> required of anyone seeking status as a certified
> >> permaculture
> >>> professional. This process could be elevated
> to
> >> community college and university level
> coursework.
> >>> Do read my suggestion about the need to
> recognize and
> >> help those who cannot afford any training but want
> to play a
> >>
> >>> significant role in their communities as
> permaculture
> >> mentors, teachers, activists (political too, if
> necessary),
> >>> consultants, designers and local practitioners
> within
> >> a growing community of like-minded individuals
> (this would
> >> be so
> >>> important to so many, just think about that if
> you're
> >> thinking about ways to make waves for forge the
> future).
> >>>> I was catching up on a stack of New
> Yorker
> >> magazines this morning, and in the Oct 4 issue
> there's an
> >> article that
> >>>> fits right in to this conversation,
> "Small
> >> Change" by Malcolm Gladwell. Gladwell is known for
> his book
> >> "The Tipping
> >>>> Point" and in general being a whole
> systems
> >> thinker. He's made the points I would have liked
> to have
> >> made. I was
> >>>> intrigued that he feels network tools
> aren't good
> >> for doing design, and that they are better at
> preserving the
> >> status
> >>>> quo than changing it. So here's a quote
> from the
> >> article.
> >>>> "Unlike hierarchies, with their rules and
> >> procedures, networks aren?t controlled by a single
> central
> >> authority.
> >>>> Decisions are made through consensus, and
> the
> >> ties that bind people to the group are loose. This
> structure
> >> makes
> >>>> networks enormously resilient and
> adaptable in
> >> low-risk situations. Wikipedia is a perfect
> example. . . .
> >>>> "The drawbacks of networks scarcely matter
> if the
> >> network isn?t interested in systemic change?if it
> just
> >> wants to
> >>>> frighten or humiliate or make a splash?or
> if it
> >> doesn?t need to think strategically. But if
> you?re
> >> taking on a
> >>>> powerful and organized establishment you
> have to
> >> be a hierarchy . . . .
> >>> Wonderful thinking!
> >>>
> >>> LL
> >>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>> permaculture mailing list
> >>> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
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> >>> Command to put in your browser's Google search
> box to
> >> search these archives:
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> [search
> >> string (omit the brackets)]
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> >>> http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
> >>> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> >>> List contact: permacultureforum at gmail.com
> >>   ???
> >> ????????
> >> ?????? ???
> >> ?
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> permaculture mailing list
> >> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> >> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user
> configuration
> >> here:
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> >> Read the public message archives here:
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> >> Command to put in your browser's Google search box
> to
> >> search these archives:
> >> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture
> [search
> >> string (omit the brackets)]
> >> List Usage&  Guidelines:
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> >> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
> >> Permaculture Mailing List Blog
> >> http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
> >> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> >> List contact: permacultureforum at gmail.com
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 15:06:22 -0400
> > From: Hannah Roessler<hannahroessler at hotmail.com>
> > To:<permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Permaculture in Guatemala
> > Message-ID:<COL106-W529752614348E5502970C2CC480 at phx.gbl>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> >
> > Hi there,
> > Try Roni Lec at IMAP, near San Lucas Toliman.
> >
> >> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 08:30:21 -0700
> >> From: daveyisdavey at yahoo.com
> >> To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> >> Subject: [permaculture] Permaculture in Guatemala
> >>
> >> please i am looking for some folks practicing in
> Guatemala.
> >>
> >> if you are there yourself or were there once
> before or know someone who is there
> >> or know someone who was there.... please contact
> me.
> >>
> >> thanks!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> permaculture mailing list
> >> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> >> Subscribe, unsubscribe, change your user
> configuration here:
> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >> Read the public message archives here:
> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture
> >> Command to put in your browser's Google search box
> to search these archives:
> >> site:lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture
> [search string (omit the brackets)]
> >> List Usage&  Guidelines:
> >> http://ibiblio.org/permaculture/documents/permaculturelistguide.faq
> >> Permaculture http://www.ibiblio.org/permaculture
> >> Permaculture Mailing List Blog
> >> http://permaculturelist.blogspot.com
> >> permaculture forums http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums
> >> List contact: permacultureforum at gmail.com
> >      
>         
>            
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 13:00:41 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: Rain Tenaqiya<raincascadia at yahoo.com>
> > To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subject: [permaculture] moles, voles, gophers, and
> deer, oh my
> > Message-ID:<477155.92191.qm at web65812.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The first permaculture principle that comes to mind
> here is to turn a problem into a solution: eat them.? If you
> can't bring yourself to do that than my experience with each
> of these is the following:
> > ?
> > 1.? Moles- aren't much of a problem except where they
> mess up foundations, paths, or greywater pipes, etc.? They
> are carnivores and pretty much leave plants alone.? If
> necessary, underground mole traps or a cat work pretty
> well.
> > ?
> > 2.? Voles- the bane of my existence, making it very
> difficult to establish trees and impossible to have an
> annual garden.? Trapping is the only guaranteed solution for
> an annual garden, but a cat can be good enough for
> perennials.? Vole population and behavior vary widely by
> climate, vegetation, population dynamics, etc.? I am in a
> Mediterranean climate with oak savannah.? Simply observe
> where voles are currently active and put regular mouse traps
> in their tunnels and paths, covered with buckets or pots to
> keep out cats and to make a safer-feeling environment for
> the voles.? The traps with the wide plastic ramp-triggers
> work best.? Trees and other perennials must be planted with
> aviary wire all the way around their roots and?the upper six
> inches of trunk?to be totally safe, though I often just use
> plastic bottles with their bottoms cut out around small
> plants, with three or more inches sticking above the ground
> for small or cheap plants that
> >   voles seem less interested in.?
> During dips in the vole population, you can sometimes get
> trees or shrubs established without much trouble, but this
> is very risky and voles have been known to topple mature
> trees like figs.
> > ?
> > 3.? Gophers- similar to voles, though fewer in number,
> thus making them easier to trap.? Traps usually must be
> specifically made for voles and all tunnels are underground,
> making the setting of traps trickier and more laborious.?
> > ?
> > 4.? Deer- fencing deer is the only long-term solution,
> other than killing them.? Depending on the topography and
> population density, fencing must be more or less elaborate.?
> I've used two inch mesh chicken wire on posts set 15 ft
> apart with the fencing only six feet high with few
> problems.? The plastic fencing also works great, though
> degrades faster if in the sun.? Eight ft is recommended in
> more densely populated areas, though you can get away with
> shorter fencing by putting lines of twine above the fencing,
> spaced every ft or so.? White flagging helps the deer see
> the twine.? Two four foot high barriers spaced four feet
> apart also works, and one or both of these can be hedges, so
> fencing can be reduced by live barriers over time.? Dense
> bamboo can work, for example.? Fencing with ground receding
> on the outside works better than the opposite.? Less sturdy
> fencing requires more observation and maintenance.? Trained
> dogs can also keep deer
> >   away.
> > ?
> > For trees out in the open, I've used five ft high
> fencing cut in seven ft pieces to make rounds that are
> secured on one or more stakes.? This is the minimum
> protection trees need to grow above the browse level, and
> most branches within the fence will eventually get chewed
> off by the deer.? I often have to use sticks to direct the
> branches up and away from the fencing.? Wider fencing would
> be better, but would require more stakes.? Eventually, the
> fencing can be removed, but you need to watch for deer
> destroying the trunks by rubbing their antlers on them
> during the rutting season (Fall).? This is more common in
> open country, and may require basically permanent wire mesh
> or other barriers on the trunks.
> > ?
> > Keep in mind that everything I've said is from my
> experience on the US West Coast, and conditions may be
> different elsewhere.? Also beware of gimmicky
> recommendations like putting scents out to deter beasts, or
> those silly solar vibrator things (which may work on a
> limited scale when move around frequently).? For real
> subsistence food growing situations, "easy" solutions will
> not work over time, in my experience.
> > ?
> > Good luck,
> > ?
> > Rain
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 14:57:03 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: Cory Brennan<cory8570 at yahoo.com>
> > To: permaculture<permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and networks
> > Message-ID:<4414.1313.qm at web52606.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> >
> > In some of the projects I've been involved with, we
> haven't had time to get consensus - there were too many life
> and death situations and sometimes we just acted without
> asking anybody, because we knew what to do to save lives and
> even simply explaining to someone who didn't understand it
> or agree with it would take too long.
> >
> > In less grim situations, I've seen consensus minus
> one, or 85% majority, or other non-unanimous varieties work
> well and not be abused, personally. Maybe it is the groups
> I've been in. We never used it to ignore the concerns of the
> holdout - part of the deal was to allow the dissenting
> parties to state why they are dissenting. I found that
> people would communicate to that person after the meeting
> and continue to try to work with the person to meet their
> concerns. In one case, the person was clearly intent on
> disrupting the activities of the group to get what they
> wanted, and we asked the person to leave, but only after
> giving them several chances to work it out. The project
> could have been seriously disrupted if we had continued to
> try to accomodate this individual. I do not feel that one
> person should be able to hold up the forward progress of an
> entire group if the rest of them are working smoothly
> together and making progress toward a mutual goal. That
> >   person should, instead, find a group
> he/she can agree with and work with. There are lots of
> tribes out there!
> >
> > I like that juries must reach consensus to convict.
> There are certain decisions that I feel consensus should be
> used to make. Being able to discuss a matter and reach
> consensus on it is a very useful skill set, but I've also
> found hierarchies quite useful.
> >
> > Cory
> >
> > --- On Mon, 11/1/10, jamesdavid Sneed<harvestcircle at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> From: jamesdavid Sneed<harvestcircle at hotmail.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [permaculture] hierarchies and
> networks
> >> To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> >> Date: Monday, November 1, 2010, 11:00 AM
> >>
> >> I wonder if the division between heirarchy and
> >> decentralization is sometimes too "either-or",
> when small,
> >> decentralized heirarchies may be an avenue to use
> strong
> >> leadership. Consensus without strong individuals
> can
> >> SOMETIMES lead to weak groups, vulnerable to
> outside
> >> conditions that end up "steering the drifting
> boat".
> >> I do think that small heirarchies that are limited
> in their
> >> vertical intgration must have a common theme to
> be
> >> effective, be it philosophical, spiritual,
> familial, or
> >> other. But then, groups using consensus also need
> that
> >> cohesion. Also necessary for those limited
> heirarchies is
> >> the true willingness of the leadership to consult
> and listen
> >> to all members, with real inclusiveness. This is
> probably
> >> less possible if a group exceeds fifty or so
> members.
> >> One ptfall I found that ruined several groups run
> by
> >> consensus was the silly idea of "consensus minus
> one" which
> >> was promoted as a way to avoid being bogged down
> by a
> >> stick-in-the-mud individual but always became a
> way of
> >> ignoring the wisdom or concerns of the last
> holdout to
> >> consensus. Consensus minus one is nothing like
> consensus and
> >> denatures the whole purpose.
> >> How do other permaculture groups deal with this?
> >>
> >>> From: toby at patternliteracy.com
> >>> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 14:54:09 -0700
> >>> To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> >>> Subject: [permaculture] hierarchies and
> networks
> >>>
> >>> One subject we touched on in the recent
> certification
> >> thread was new and old tools for change, and the
> difference
> >> between hierarchical and decentralized
> organizations and
> >> tools. I'd said that I once had high hopes for
> decentralized
> >> leadership tools, like consensus, but was
> disappointed by
> >> how rarely they live up to their promise. I've
> been
> >> skeptical of the value of these and similar
> methods to
> >> actually produce change, and have found the older
> >> tools--strong leadership, old-style voting--at
> least as
> >> effective (though I still prefer inclusive
> versions of these
> >> tools to exclusive).
> >>> I was catching up on a stack of New Yorker
> magazines
> >> this morning, and in the Oct 4 issue there's an
> article that
> >> fits right in to this conversation, "Small Change"
> by
> >> Malcolm Gladwell. Gladwell is known for his book
> "The
> >> Tipping Point" and in general being a whole
> systems thinker.
> >> He's made the points I would have liked to have
> made. I was
> >> intrigued that he feels network tools aren't good
> for doing
> >> design, and that they are better at preserving the
> status
> >> quo than changing it. So here's a quote from the
> article.
> >>> "Unlike hierarchies, with their rules and
> procedures,
> >> networks aren?t controlled by a single central
> authority.
> >> Decisions are made through consensus, and the ties
> that bind
> >> people to the group are loose. This structure
> makes networks
> >> enormously resilient and adaptable in low-risk
> situations.
> >> Wikipedia is a perfect example. . . .
> >>> "There are many things, though, that networks
> don?t
> >> do well. Car companies sensibly use a network to
> organize
> >> their hundreds of suppliers, but not to design
> their cars.
> >> No one believes that the articulation of a
> coherent design
> >> philosophy is best handled by a sprawling,
> leaderless
> >> organizational system. Because networks don?t have
> a
> >> centralized leadership structure and clear lines
> of
> >> authority, they have real difficulty reaching
> consensus and
> >> setting goals. They can?t think strategically;
> they are
> >> chronically prone to conflict and error. How do
> you make
> >> difficult choices about tactics or strategy or
> philosophical
> >> direction when everyone has an equal say?
> >>> "The Palestine Liberation Organization
> originated as a
> >> network, and the international-relations scholars
> Mette
> >> Eilstrup-Sangiovanni and Calvert Jones argue in a
> recent
> >> essay in International Security that this is why
> it ran into
> >> such trouble as it grew: ?Structural features
> typical of
> >> networks?the absence of central authority, the
> unchecked
> >> autonomy of rival groups, and the inability to
> arbitrate
> >> quarrels through formal mechanisms?made the
> P.L.O.
> >> excessively vulnerable to outside manipulation and
> internal
> >> strife.?
> >>> "In Germany in the nineteen-seventies, they go
> on,
> >> ?the far more unified and successful left-wing
> terrorists
> >> tended to organize hierarchically, with
> professional
> >> management and clear divisions of labor." . . .
> They seldom
> >> betrayed their comrades in arms during police
> >> interrogations. Their counterparts on the right
> were
> >> organized as decentralized networks, and had no
> such
> >> discipline. These groups were regularly
> infiltrated, and
> >> members, once arrested, easily gave up their
> comrades.
> >> Similarly, Al Qaeda was most dangerous when it was
> a unified
> >> hierarchy. Now that it has dissipated into a
> network, it has
> >> proved far less effective.
> >>> "The drawbacks of networks scarcely matter if
> the
> >> network isn?t interested in systemic change?if it
> just
> >> wants to frighten or humiliate or make a splash?or
> if it
> >> doesn?t need to think strategically. But if
> you?re
> >> taking on a powerful and organized establishment
> you have to
> >> be a hierarchy . . . .
> >>> "But [network-based activism] is simply a form
> of
> >> organizing which favors the weak-tie connections
> that give
> >> us access to information over the strong-tie
> connections
> >> that help us persevere in the face of danger. It
> shifts our
> >> energies from organizations that promote strategic
> and
> >> disciplined activity and toward those which
> promote
> >> resilience and adaptability. It makes it easier
> for
> >> activists to express themselves, and harder for
> that
> >> expression to have any impact. The instruments of
> social
> >> media are well suited to making the existing
> social order
> >> more efficient. They are not a natural enemy of
> the status
> >> quo. If you are of the opinion that all the world
> needs is a
> >> little buffing around the edges, this should not
> trouble
> >> you. But if you think that there are still lunch
> counters
> >> out there that need integrating [Gladwell
> mentioned civil
> >> rights activists] it ought to give you pause."
> >>> The full article is at
> >>> http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/10/04/101004fa_fact_gladwell?currentPage=all
> >>>
> >>> Toby
> >>> http://patternliteracy.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> _______________________________________________
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> >>   ???
> >> ????????
> >> ?????? ???
> >> ?
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 8
> > Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 20:29:42 -0400
> > From: Keith Johnson<keithdj at mindspring.com>
> > To: permaculture<permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] Moles, Voles and Gophers
> and deers
> > Message-ID:<4CCF5B76.9050206 at mindspring.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
> format=flowed
> >
> > To repel voles, moles and gophers, plant lots of
> daffodils and
> > narcissus, especially as part of a fruit tree guild.
> This will not get
> > rid of them but will help prevent the voles in
> particular from
> > munching roots of favored trees / shrubs. If you are
> in Ca and dealing
> > with pocket gophers, the bulbs will help but planting
> in buried wire
> > "cages" was the standard way landscapers dealt with
> the problem.
> > Hardware stores out there carried them in a variety of
> sizes. Moles do
> > not generally eat roots but rather grubs and worms.
> They stir the soil
> > quite effectively. For example I just harvested about
> 6 buckets of
> > beautiful mole (or gopher) diggings from the edge of
> my compost heap.
> > A.P. Thompson, a Virginia orchardist, developed the
> practice of
> > back-filling fruit tree plantings with a gravel and
> soil mix as a way
> > to discourage rodents. I've tried it and it seems to
> work. You'll want
> > to use sharp gravel rather than a rounded pea gravel.
> You can also
> > trap them with various devices. I've heard of folks
> putting a hose on
> > their muffler and gassing them with CO (carbon
> monoxide). I
> > encountered folks in CA who were using a VERY
> high-powered vacuum
> > cleaner to suck them out of the ground. Some people
> swear that leaving
> > juicy fruit gum in their tunnels screws up their
> intestines but I have
> > not confirmed this.
> >
> > See this link for a trick I haven't tried using
> "castor bean oil
> > granules".
> > http://www.hgtv.com/landscaping/no-more-gophers-or-moles/index.html
> >
> > I also grow castor beans and a plant called gopher
> spurge
> > (Eurphobiaceae) which may or may not repel them, but
> are fun to grow
> > anyway. I've even had deer EAT castor bean plants
> (which are quite
> > toxic, especially the seed).
> >
> > Fencing for the deer is my best choice as I don't have
> a dog.
> >
> > On 10/31/2010 3:32 PM, Cuauhtemoc Landeros wrote:
> >> Does anyone know about how to get rid, remove or
> deter voles, moles, gophers
> >> or deers.
> >> Thanks for the help.
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