[permaculture] Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of whatever)
cory8570 at yahoo.com
Thu Aug 19 15:47:49 EDT 2010
Thank you for your well-stated and thought provoking response, I agree utterly. The principles work, period, because they are based on natural law. It doesn't matter who uses them, if they aren't used properly, they don't work as well or at all.
I would love a list of the universities permauclture is taught in - this would be very helpful for some projects I'm involved with. I'm aware of a few, but not all 25. I would like it to be all of them! As well as high schools, trade schools, etc. I'm trying to do my part to contribute to that.
--- On Mon, 8/16/10, Toby Hemenway <toby at patternliteracy.com> wrote:
> From: Toby Hemenway <toby at patternliteracy.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Designing a Movement (was: Ethics of whatever)
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Monday, August 16, 2010, 7:38 AM
> rafter wrote:
> > Teaching Pc for, and to, white nationalists, would be
> bad for the movement.
> I think this gets to one of the central confusions of this
> discussion, and why at times we are talking past each other
> (and BTW, I know someone who taught a PDC for white
> ideologists, who told me that a lot of important insights
> came out--for the instructor as well).
> I think we fall into two camps: those who view permaculture
> as a movement, and those who view it as a design approach.
> Of course, most of us--myself included--hold portions of
> both views, but I think one will predominate in each person.
> If you think of Pc as a movement, then we are activists who
> are trying to transform people's view of the world, and we
> need everyone to see it our way. We are right. Permaculture
> is then a worldview, an ideology of sorts, and people need
> to do it our way, or the wrong side will win. And our
> ideology needs to remain pure and uncorrupted. If the
> wrong people infiltrate us, permaculture will become
> tainted, ruined, and it will turn into something we don't
> want. You are either following it or not; you're with us or
> against us, and if you are against us, you need to be
> transformed.You can see that I don't like the idea of Pc
> being a movement, even though I'm often caught up in its
> evangelical qualities. And it's not a big step from being a
> movement to being a cult, which some accuse permaculture of
> being. Some of the arguments made here are almost cult-like:
> we have secret knowledge that needs to be kept from the army
> or they will do harm with it.
> Or the other view: If permaculture is a design approach,
> then at its essence it is a set of tools for Earth- and
> people-care that is not dependent on belief or ideology. It
> can't be corrupted because its use either does or doesn't
> follow the ethics and principles, and it stops being
> permaculture when those are not being adhered to. Or at
> least we can say it is a poor or incomplete use of
> permaculture. A person is either a good designer or a poor
> one. You use the principles in your work or you don't. You
> use ecological and social metrics to assess whether you've
> been successful: As biodiversity up? Are people healthy?
> This puts the responsibility on the user, and not on
> permaculture as a movement that may be corrupted by bad
> Larry Santoyo's phrase is useful here: We don't DO
> permaculture, we USE permaculture in what we do. Activists
> in a movement do permaculture. Designers use permaculture in
> what they do. If the army uses permaculture, it will result
> in Earth care and people care. If it doesn't have that
> result, then they aren't using permaculture; they are
> ideologists applying capitalist/corporate ideology to yet
> another tool they have made poor use of. If we don't teach
> them permaculture, there is no chance of them doing the good
> it can do. It cannot make them worse, in my view. It will
> either be abandoned by them, or it will make them good
> designers of healthy systems.
> Again, I think "go where you are invited" applies. I have
> no intention of trying to transform the army with
> permaculture: that's ideology. But if they come to me
> to ask how they can use permaculture to have ecologically
> and socially successful and sound projects, I'll be there.
> The student must be ready for the teacher, or there will be
> no learning.
> And incidentally, I've really appreciated what Rafter and
> manyy others have written here, especially the Rafter/Scott
> dialog. Thanks for a thought provoking thread.
> And, Cory and all: Permaculture is already being taught in
> over 25 universities in the US alone, at last count.
> And: I absolutely approve, as Kevin suggested, of making
> the ethics, principles, and curriculum much clearer and less
> subject to wild interpretations. Hence the need for
> organizations that link permaculturists together,
> On Aug 12, 2010, at 2:55 PM, rafter sass wrote:
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