[permaculture] Ten unfortunate assumptions of energy addicts

Keith Johnson keithdj at mindspring.com
Mon Oct 27 17:55:04 EDT 2008


I stand corrected. Please, all, accept my apologies for my less  than 
courteous reply to David.

Lundberg might benefit from hearing this kind of critique and begin to 
supply more references for his assertions.

Toby,
May I attach your comments to the posting of Lundberg's "assumptions" I 
made at my blog?
Thanks,
Keith

BTW, Peter and I will be attending the

Toby Hemenway wrote:
> Lundberg gives no references in his original article, and I agree with 
> David that he's just making assertions and telling us to believe they 
> are facts, and condemns anyone who won't believe him as "blind." 
> Although I think we're in for a heap of trouble, energy-wise, it's 
> insupportable to make statements like, "2. Petroleum has no substitute" 
> since people also said that there were no substitutes for wood, whale 
> oil, coal, copper wire, and a hundred other now-replaced commodities. 
> It's foolish to claim we know all there is to know. Remember that 
> physicists in the 19th century said that all the major discoveries had 
> been made. (I'm not saying I know of an oil substitute, just that it's 
> dumb to say there can never be one!) 
>
> So he really needs references to back up those claims. However, most of 
> them are predictions and guesses, like (paraphrasing) "oil depletion 
> will be rapid--those who say it will be gradual are wrong." Hubbert's 
> curve looks pretty gradual to me; what's his evidence? His statements 
> cannot be proven, but he treats them as the only truth.
>
> Lundberg may be a bright guy, but he come across as a complete asshole: 
> shrill, angry, demeaning anyone who disagrees with him, one-sided, 
> making unsupported and unsupportable assertions, and offering only 
> complaints and no solutions. I've read a few of his pieces, and they all 
> seem the same. Even where I agree with him--and I do in many places--I 
> wish he wouldn't assume that most everyone else is stupid. I made that 
> mistake in a couple of articles I wrote, and I still regret having 
> alienated a lot of people who would have been allies. Lundberg is 
> alienating a lot of potential supporters (like me and probably David) as 
> well. Peak oil needs better spokesmanship than that.
>
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
>
>
>
> David Travis wrote:
>   
>> Dear Keith,
>>
>> If you don't want people sharing their
>> opinions or observations about Lundberg's articles, then I'd highly
>> recommend keeping them to yourself. Posting them to a public mailing
>> list might give people the mistaken idea that they're being encouraged
>> to communicate ideas of their own.
>>
>> - David
>>
>>
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 21:41:01 -0400
>>> From: Keith Johnson <keithdj at mindspring.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Ten unfortunate assumptions of energy
>>> 	addicts
>>> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Message-ID: <4903CAAD.2020701 at mindspring.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>
>>> Actually he does but you'd have to read more of his site and not just a 
>>> few paragraphs out of context.
>>>
>>> Archives 
>>> <http://culturechange.org/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=228&Itemid=56>
>>>
>>> I'm sure Jan would be happy to provide the references to which you refer 
>>> if you were to contact him 
>>> <http://culturechange.org/cms/index.php?option=com_contact&Itemid=3> 
>>> instead of just complaining in public forums.
>>>
>>>     "Jan C. Lundberg, a national speaker, writer and publisher, is best
>>>     known for running what was widely considered "the bible of the oil
>>>     industry," Lundberg Survey Inc. In 1979 the firm predicted the
>>>     Second Oil Shock. After 14 years there, he left for-profit work to
>>>     found the nonprofit Sustainable Energy Institute, now Culture
>>>     Change. For almost twenty years he has studied peak oil, energy
>>>     alternatives, and conservation based primarily on grassroots change
>>>     in lifestyle. He has assisted clients interested in the impacts of
>>>     peak oil and climate change on material security and community
>>>     connection. Educated in Europe and on the high seas, he has pursued
>>>     an adventure called a career that is still evolving."
>>>
>>>
>>> David Travis wrote:
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>> Ten unfortunate assumptions of energy addicts
>>>>> Written by Jan Lundberg
>>>>>
>>>>> Our collective problem as we see the world sputter out of control for 
>>>>> the worse (before it gets better) is largely that so many loud mouths 
>>>>> claim to know what IS happening here. Honest and wise assessments of 
>>>>> what all is really going on are hard to come by, partly because the 
>>>>> corporate media suppress independent voices who may have the background 
>>>>> and objectivity to offer clarity.
>>>>>     
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> [snip...]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mr. Lundberg's "background and objectivity" evidently doesn't involve the use of references or sources for any of his claims.
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> -- 
>>> Keith Johnson
>>> "Be fruitful and mulch apply."
>>> Permaculture Activist Magazine
>>> PO Box 5516, Bloomington, IN 47407
>>> (812) 335-0383
>>> http://www.permacultureactivist.net
>>>     
>>>       
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Stay organized with simple drag and drop from Windows Live Hotmail.
>> http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_102008
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> Google command to search archives:
>> site:http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture searchstring
>>
>>
>>
>>   
>>     
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> Google command to search archives:
> site:http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture searchstring
>
>
>
>
>   

-- 
Keith Johnson
"Be fruitful and mulch apply."
Permaculture Activist Magazine
PO Box 5516, Bloomington, IN 47407
(812) 335-0383
http://www.permacultureactivist.net
- Bloomington Permaculture Growers Cooperative http://bloomingtongrowers.locallygrown.net/
- Renaissance Farm and Permaculture Center http://bloomingtongrowers.locallygrown.net/growers/show/212
- http://www.PermacultureTradingPost.com
- Switch to Solar Power the Easy Way http://www.jointhesolution.com/KeithJ-SunPower http://www.PowUr.com/KeithJ-SunPower
- Blog: http://kjpermaculture.blogspot.com/
- Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting http://www.permacultureactivist.net/design/Designconsult.html
- Association for Regenerative Culture http://www.ARCulture.org
- APPLE (Alliance for Post-Petroleum Local Economics) It's a small world after oil. http://www.relocalize.net/groups/applebloomington
- Bloomington Permaculture Guild http://my.calendars.net/bloomingtonpccal/
http://bloomingtonpermacultureguild.blogspot.com/




More information about the permaculture mailing list