[permaculture] Conservatism revisited

rafter t. sass liberationecology at gmail.com
Sun Feb 17 18:31:15 EST 2008


Hello, Dieter - welcome back to the debate you triggered!

Thanks so much for writing:
"... it is not healthy to
   barricade ourselves in a cosy little ecological or permaculture  
corner. Nothing
   is going to bring back the idyllic life of medieval villages, if  
that ever was idyllic."

That is a much-needed counterweight to the "Pc life raft" mentality  
that persistently frames discussion in the Pc community.

What I don't see is how that leads to the idea that we should  
accommodate ourselves to corporate power. You set up a strawman  
argument here: I explicitly disavow a black & white worldview in my  
earlier post on this topic, and David agrees with me.

Far from having "degenerated into bloodshed and repression usually  
worse then the tyranny they supplanted," idealist, radical, utopian  
thinkers and movements have been the ONLY forces in society that have  
succeeded in securing basic human rights. This despite their militant  
confrontation with the status quo, and arguably because of it.  
Radical debate, struggle, and even confrontation, expand the  
boundaries of the debate, and create the space in which the demands  
of more moderate progressive elements become acceptable. Check out  
the Abolitionists, the Suffragettes, the labor movement (particularly  
AFL/CIO), the US civil rights movement, the Indian anti-colonial  
struggle, etc. etc.

It is, unfortunately, a popular distortion of the historical record  
to claim the opposite. Yes, utopian movements have failed to produce  
utopia. Would you dismiss them on those grounds, in the face of all  
that we owe them, rather than oppose corporate power for what it is  
succeeding so well at - i.e. concentrating wealth and power, and all  
the social and ecological consequences that entails?

I heartily agree with you when you say:
"there are obviously problems that at the moment seem too momentous  
to be solved within present models.
Most of all economic growth.  How and with what can we replace  
economic growth as the driving
   force in the economy."

But how in the world does that lead to the conclusion that the  
solutions will maintain some version of corporate structure &  
commodity production?

Like David, I'm not insisting that we have to decide, a priori, that  
our strategies for change have to exclude any traces of the commodity  
economy and corporate institutions. But if I do the opposite, and  
decide a priori, without any real evidence, that they are permanent  
fixtures of human society, I immediately limit myself to a fairly  
narrow window of possible plans, possible futures. Even more  
importantly, by marginalizing those who do oppose corporate/commodity  
economics, we all sacrifice our bargaining position as a people - as  
a planet full of actual, not corporate, persons.

In other words, even if I want a compromise with corporate power, I'm  
shooting myself in the foot if I exclude from the debate those who  
militantly oppose it.

I would include, as attempted exclusion, the red-baiting you  
unfortunately descend to as a closing to your email. This is the only  
part of your email that strays from polite debate, and it makes a  
troubling footnote to the rest of your argument. No one here is  
accusing you of being a lackey of anything, and no one is justifying  
authoritarian misrule and famine, nor is anyone belatedly  
backpedaling from such a stance.

I plead guilty, though, to the insinuation that I might examine and  
re-consider my beliefs as I go through life. It's easy to never  
compromise a belief as vague and middle-of-the-road as "a more human  
and peaceful society." It's when I take stand on a contentious,  
complex, or practical issues that I have to evaluate and re-evaluate  
my position. There is no shame in it - quite the opposite. Pointing  
to the deaths of millions in China and crowing about how you never  
had to change your mind is just offensive. The implication that  
present-day opponents of corporate power are in some analogous  
position to early supporters of Mao is utterly counterproductive.

Last paragraph aside, I appreciate the arguments you are bringing to  
the forum, and the debate they are stimulating. Thank you.

best,
rafter t. sass
The Liberation Ecology Project
liberationecology.org
518-567-7407
skype: raughter






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