[permaculture] re. Lactoferments
diebrand at yahoo.com
Fri Feb 8 13:19:21 EST 2008
I'm allergic to an "us" and "they" mentality that tends to
enclose people in a cosy little alternative corner while
mainstream society moves passed.
> ... parasites ... diseases ... aliens that can cost us our
> health and life ... us [humans] stop the alien menace ..."
Do you take all of this alien stuff literally and not just as
a metaphor for something you disapprove of? I hope not.
>Everything that is wrong in the world today has it's basis in an
>economic system that considers ever increasing production as the
>primary good, and that system is 99% controlled by the corporations.
I'm not going to defend consumerism, nor am I adverse to
bashing the Monsantos of this World. That is the good fight.
Yet, that economic system, with all its imperfections, is all
we have got. There are changes ahead with the resources
of this planet being as limited as they are. The system will
stay stable as long as it has enough flexibility to adapt to
the changes needed. And if you look into history or at other
cultural spheres you are unlikely to find other models that
provide more flexibility.
I agree that there can be no unlimited growth in a limited
environment. What are the solutions for the future? Frankly,
I have no idea. As a hunch, perhaps it needs to include a
redirection of human endeavour into more sustainable forms
of living, but that is so vague as to be almost meaningless.
Anyway, I think we need to be deeply distrustful of utopian
fantasies from the alternative fringe that will collapse into
chaos at the first real test.
>> The bad corporations don't make anything you don't want to buy.
>Oh yes, they do. ...they call that marketing, but I call it lying ...
It's a chicken and egg question and not very productive in
And just to give you another shock, I used to work in
corporate communications. Yes, they are humans!
Not the corporations but the people working there.
And a lot of them do a real good job too. If the effect
of what corporations do can sometimes be negative,
it is not because they or the people working for them
are a "disease", "parasites" or "aliens", it is because
the system makes them function in that way. The
very system that sustains your life like mine like
But do make soap! There is a lot to be said for
> ... the corporations are the power that is perpetuating
> it and fighting against any change.
You would be surprised at just how well they adapt to
change, it's almost scary.
Juergen Botz <jurgen at botz.org> wrote:
Dieter Brand wrote:
>>> How did people change from being makers of things to "consumers?"
>> When our civilization was taken over by an alien species of producers,
> Yes, yes, its always the fault of the others, the aliens. Timeworn recipe
> for finding scapegoats with others, other people, other races. Just too
> convenient, since it releases us of the need to look for the real problem
> which, more often then not, is much closer to home.
I know... "we have met the enemy, and he is us." After all,
corporations today are as much part of us as civilization itself,
right? But then, so are the parasites and diseases that co-
evolved with us... yet at the same time they are aliens who
can cost us our health and life. I'm not trying to disclaim
human responsibility... it's up to us to stop the alien menace.
But to do that we have to recognize it for what it is.
Besides, my statement was factual. Until the corporations
began to dominate the economic system, >90% of all production
was by human individuals. And more importantly, most human
individuals had the basic knowledge to produce the essentials
of their life or at least of what those things actually were
and how they were made. How many people today know even
something as simple as what soap is? Every supermarket has
at least two entire iles full of minor variations of this one
product, sold at a wide range of prices to individuals who
have no clue that it's all the same thing.
Everything that is wrong in the world today has it's basis in an
economic system that considers ever increasing production as the
primary good, and that system is 99% controlled by the corporations.
It isn't that pre-corporations we didn't already have the beginnings
of the same problems or that humans were more enlightened. But
today the situation is as I describe it, and the corporations are
the power that is perpetuating it and fighting against any change.
> The bad corporations don't make anything you don't want to buy.
Oh yes, they do. Much of commerce (especially retail) long ago
stopped being about supplying demand and became all about CREATING
demand. They call that marketing, but I call it lying and
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