[permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 67, Issue 25
Bryce Ruddock
bruddockjr at wi.rr.com
Tue Aug 26 22:01:04 EDT 2008
Regarding longevity of black locust wood see the following
links:http://www.hungarobinia.hu/az_akac/index_en.php
,http://www.blacklocust.org/blidata/locust/robiniapseudo.html,
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=3388348.
If any of these do not give a result then google durability of black
locust and follow the trail from there . The first 2 links are within the
first 3 pages.
The compounds responsible for the durability seem to be the tannins and
robinetins found in the wood.
Bryce Ruddock
----- Original Message -----
From: <permaculture-request at lists.ibiblio.org>
To: <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 12:21 PM
Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 67, Issue 25
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Compost Celebration in Santa Fe, 9/13-14 (Woody Wodraska)
> 2. what makes black locust last so long? (paul wheaton)
> 3. Re: what makes black locust last so long? (Niels Corfield)
> 4. Re: what makes black locust last so long? (maria morehead)
> 5. Re: what makes black locust last so long? (Margaret L. Wilson)
> 6. Re: what makes black locust last so long? (jacque greenleaf)
> 7. Re: what makes black locust last so long? (Jay Woods)
> 8. Re: what makes black locust last so long? (paul wheaton)
> 9. Re: what makes black locust last so long?
> (Jim Powell (Madison Environmental Justice Organization))
> 10. Re: what makes black locust last so long? (paul wheaton)
> 11. Re: what makes black locust last so long? (Jay Woods)
> 12. Re: what makes black locust last so long? (lbsaltzman at aol.com)
> 13. Re: what makes black locust last so long? (Toby Hemenway)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 13:36:12 -0700
> From: Woody Wodraska <wodraska at mac.com>
> Subject: [permaculture] Compost Celebration in Santa Fe, 9/13-14
> To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <992E8D87-0164-4CC9-B8CF-892D61268C8F at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> The Single Most Important Thing
> To Know About Gardening Is
> How To Make Good Compost In days gone by a family's wealth was
> measured by the size of their compost pile. The answer to most garden
> questions is living compost. With compost, you are prepared to
> co-create with the spirit world a
> wonderful garden. Soil fertility is the key to serving
> future generations and is the foundation of garden or civilization,
> for that matter.
>
> Good, lively compost
> *Provides living organisms to work and nourish the soil: worms and
> microlife by the billions;
> *Brings light and air to tight clay soils;
> *Brings character and tilth to loose, sandy soils;
> *Adds nutrients in usable form for the plants;
> *Holds moisture.
>
> BETTER THAN IMAGINED...A CONSCIOUS COMPOST CELEBRATION with
> Biodynamic Compostmeister Barbara M V Scott MSc
>
> Sept. 13 (10am-4pm) and Sept. 14 (10am-2pm)
>
> Santa Fe, NM The Fairgrounds
> Master Gardener Site [next to Botanical Garden Plant Sale]
>
> Contact: Steven McFadden 505-428-8444 or Woody Wodraska 603-588-2302
>
> Woody Wodraska
> wodraska at mac.com
> Free chapters from
> "Deep Gardening: Soul Lessons from 17 Gardens" at
> http://www.soulmedicinejourney.com/Book.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 10:59:21 -0700
> From: "paul wheaton" <paul at richsoil.com>
> Subject: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
> <22d4eb790808251059r4555a9dhc046d8fa01a6f3ca at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I have asked this question about 20 times in all sorts of different
> places. Any time anybody seems like they might possibly know ...
>
> So I ask it again here.
>
> In case nobody knows, I hope that somebody might carry this question
> with them and maybe some day spot an answer.
>
> So we know that black locust wood lasts a long time. Old time farmers
> would call it "stone wood" claiming that it would last longer than
> stones when used as fence posts.
>
> Why? Does it have some anti-fungal property? Anti-microbial? I've
> heard some people say something about it could be because it is just
> so dense - but that doesn't seem right either. Other dense woods seem
> to decompose fairly rapidly.
>
> Would it be less than wise to use black locust as a garden border
> because of some alelopathic effect as it decomposes? Or would it
> somehow make an excellent garden border because it will last 30 years,
> and what little of it that does rot will pass on the n-fixing it did
> when it was alive.
>
> I've been trying to get an answer to this question for three years ...
> maybe I'm asking it wrong, or researching it wrong ... or something
> ...
>
> Help!
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 19:33:25 +0100
> From: Niels Corfield <mudguard at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <48B2FAF5.2000108 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> My money's on chemicals. It'll have to be a high resin content reckon.
> I recently came 3rd in a head-to-head of the best firewoods and that was
> behind a couple of oaks that like grow 5-times slower!
> So that may well point to density also.
> I don't think it's allelopathic, that's not listed anywhere. It's not an
> aromatic wood also, like cedar. But basically it's not treated, so I
> think it'll be great as a border. After all you wouldn't think twice
> about putting untreated oak in that position, so why black locust.
> I think walnut which is known for it's allelopathy is still fine for
> pole wood etc. Though way too high value for that application but safe
> for plants as a timber.
> Why not direct your question directly to Geoff Lawton, or PRI forum, or
> in the UK: Phil Corbett (Cool Temperate) or Martin Crawford (ART).
> You could ask Elaine Ingham also.
> My feeling though is it's safe to use in that application. Especially as
> treated timber/reclaimed rail sleepers are commonly used for raised
> beds, which /do/ leach their toxins into the soil. This one's gotta be
> better.
> Just wish I had a nice stand of it nearby for a similar application.
> BTW, love that tree.
>
> Cheers,
> Niels
>
> My Bookmarks:
> http://del.icio.us/entrailer
>
> My Pics and Projects:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/nielscorfield/
> http://picasaweb.google.com/mudguard
>
> Groups I Contribute to:
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/polyculturepeople/
> http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/leeds_permaculture_network/?yguid=243022692
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/scythe
>
>
>
>
> paul wheaton wrote:
>> I have asked this question about 20 times in all sorts of different
>> places. Any time anybody seems like they might possibly know ...
>>
>> So I ask it again here.
>>
>> In case nobody knows, I hope that somebody might carry this question
>> with them and maybe some day spot an answer.
>>
>> So we know that black locust wood lasts a long time. Old time farmers
>> would call it "stone wood" claiming that it would last longer than
>> stones when used as fence posts.
>>
>> Why? Does it have some anti-fungal property? Anti-microbial? I've
>> heard some people say something about it could be because it is just
>> so dense - but that doesn't seem right either. Other dense woods seem
>> to decompose fairly rapidly.
>>
>> Would it be less than wise to use black locust as a garden border
>> because of some alelopathic effect as it decomposes? Or would it
>> somehow make an excellent garden border because it will last 30 years,
>> and what little of it that does rot will pass on the n-fixing it did
>> when it was alive.
>>
>> I've been trying to get an answer to this question for three years ...
>> maybe I'm asking it wrong, or researching it wrong ... or something
>> ...
>>
>> Help!
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> Google command to search archives:
>> site:http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture searchstring
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 11:51:16 -0700
> From: "maria morehead" <spiralmother at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
> <5a4c19e50808251151q2e65188cl8ff7148c6684ca5a at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> and you have a case study in place at giovanni's....
>
> On 8/25/08, paul wheaton <paul at richsoil.com> wrote:
>>
>> I have asked this question about 20 times in all sorts of different
>> places. Any time anybody seems like they might possibly know ...
>>
>> So I ask it again here.
>>
>> In case nobody knows, I hope that somebody might carry this question
>> with them and maybe some day spot an answer.
>>
>> So we know that black locust wood lasts a long time. Old time farmers
>> would call it "stone wood" claiming that it would last longer than
>> stones when used as fence posts.
>>
>> Why? Does it have some anti-fungal property? Anti-microbial? I've
>> heard some people say something about it could be because it is just
>> so dense - but that doesn't seem right either. Other dense woods seem
>> to decompose fairly rapidly.
>>
>> Would it be less than wise to use black locust as a garden border
>> because of some alelopathic effect as it decomposes? Or would it
>> somehow make an excellent garden border because it will last 30 years,
>> and what little of it that does rot will pass on the n-fixing it did
>> when it was alive.
>>
>> I've been trying to get an answer to this question for three years ...
>> maybe I'm asking it wrong, or researching it wrong ... or something
>> ...
>>
>> Help!
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> Google command to search archives:
>> site:http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture searchstring
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Supporting vibrant health in my community by providing education,
> nutrition,
> herbal connection and ritual through grateful interaction with Gaia.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:02:11 -0700
> From: "Margaret L. Wilson" <booldawgs at frontiernet.net>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <424200B4BAC54B0C895EB67C6EE4BB87 at Marge>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> I have black locust taking over my yard. It has sprung up under the
> house,
> invaded water, leach and septic lines. It was in the yard when we bought
> the property. I would be careful planting it as a border.
> Margaret
> http://farfarawayfarm.blogspot.com/
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "paul wheaton" <paul at richsoil.com>
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 10:59 AM
> Subject: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
>
>
>>I have asked this question about 20 times in all sorts of different
>> places. Any time anybody seems like they might possibly know ...
>>
>> So I ask it again here.
>>
>> In case nobody knows, I hope that somebody might carry this question
>> with them and maybe some day spot an answer.
>>
>> So we know that black locust wood lasts a long time. Old time farmers
>> would call it "stone wood" claiming that it would last longer than
>> stones when used as fence posts.
>>
>> Why? Does it have some anti-fungal property? Anti-microbial? I've
>> heard some people say something about it could be because it is just
>> so dense - but that doesn't seem right either. Other dense woods seem
>> to decompose fairly rapidly.
>>
>> Would it be less than wise to use black locust as a garden border
>> because of some alelopathic effect as it decomposes? Or would it
>> somehow make an excellent garden border because it will last 30 years,
>> and what little of it that does rot will pass on the n-fixing it did
>> when it was alive.
>>
>> I've been trying to get an answer to this question for three years ...
>> maybe I'm asking it wrong, or researching it wrong ... or something
>> ...
>>
>> Help!
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> Google command to search archives:
>> site:http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture searchstring
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:34:41 -0700 (PDT)
> From: jacque greenleaf <jacque_greenleaf at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <830872.22104.qm at web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
> So that adds another question to this topic - what makes it sprout like
> mad? In a nearby town there's a house and lot that look like something in
> a horror movie because of the intensive sprouting. Some of these sprouts
> are over 20 feet high, and the house is uninhabitable. Yet there are many
> perfectly behaved black locust trees in that same neighborhood.
>
> --- On Mon, 8/25/08, Margaret L. Wilson <booldawgs at frontiernet.net> wrote:
> From: Margaret L. Wilson <booldawgs at frontiernet.net>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Monday, August 25, 2008, 12:02 PM
>
> I have black locust taking over my yard. It has sprung up under the
> house,
> invaded water, leach and septic lines. It was in the yard when we bought
> the property. I would be careful planting it as a border.
> Margaret
> http://farfarawayfarm.blogspot.com/
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "paul wheaton" <paul at richsoil.com>
> To: "permaculture" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 10:59 AM
> Subject: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
>
>
>>I have asked this question about 20 times in all sorts of different
>> places. Any time anybody seems like they might possibly know ...
>>
>> So I ask it again here.
>>
>> In case nobody knows, I hope that somebody might carry this question
>> with them and maybe some day spot an answer.
>>
>> So we know that black locust wood lasts a long time. Old time farmers
>> would call it "stone wood" claiming that it would last longer
> than
>> stones when used as fence posts.
>>
>> Why? Does it have some anti-fungal property? Anti-microbial? I've
>> heard some people say something about it could be because it is just
>> so dense - but that doesn't seem right either. Other dense woods seem
>> to decompose fairly rapidly.
>>
>> Would it be less than wise to use black locust as a garden border
>> because of some alelopathic effect as it decomposes? Or would it
>> somehow make an excellent garden border because it will last 30 years,
>> and what little of it that does rot will pass on the n-fixing it did
>> when it was alive.
>>
>> I've been trying to get an answer to this question for three years ...
>> maybe I'm asking it wrong, or researching it wrong ... or something
>> ...
>>
>> Help!
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> Google command to search archives:
>> site:http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture searchstring
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> Google command to search archives:
> site:http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture searchstring
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:56:19 -0500
> From: Jay Woods <woodsjay at cox.net>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <200808251856.19463.woodsjay at cox.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/theses/available/etd-11242003-154755/unrestricted/etd.pdf
>
> 2.4 Secondary Metabolites of Black Locust and Effect on Animals
> As mentioned previously, the heartwood of BL is primarily used for fence
> posts,
> poles, railroad ties, and mine timbers and can endure for over 100 years
> in
> the soil. Its
> remarkable decay resistance is due to high flavonoid concentrations (6% of
> dry
> weight),
> specifically the constituents, robtin (15,000 ppm), robinetin (20,000 to
> 80,000 ppm) and
> dihydrorobinetin (53,000 to 176,000 ppm)(Smith et al., 1989). Other,
> flavonoids present in
> the heartwood are butein, butin, fisetin, fustin, and liquiritigenin
> (Duke,
> 2000)
>
> On Monday 25 August 2008 12:59:21 pm paul wheaton wrote:
>> I have asked this question about 20 times in all sorts of different
>> places. Any time anybody seems like they might possibly know ...
>>
>> So I ask it again here.
>>
>> In case nobody knows, I hope that somebody might carry this question
>> with them and maybe some day spot an answer.
>>
>> So we know that black locust wood lasts a long time. Old time farmers
>> would call it "stone wood" claiming that it would last longer than
>> stones when used as fence posts.
>>
>> Why? Does it have some anti-fungal property? Anti-microbial? I've
>> heard some people say something about it could be because it is just
>> so dense - but that doesn't seem right either. Other dense woods seem
>> to decompose fairly rapidly.
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:46:58 -0700
> From: "paul wheaton" <paul at richsoil.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
> <22d4eb790808251846m501c3490oa403c71a870d7a7d at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Thanks for the link Jay! Lots of excellent info!
>
> Some of it was over my head, but I did manage to learn quite a few things.
>
> I tried to find out what flavonoids were, and I found out that they
> prevent cancer. But that doesn't help me to understand how they make
> the wood last so long. Do flavonoids poison natures composters? Are
> flavonoids like some sort of natural plastic?
>
>> http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/theses/available/etd-11242003-154755/unrestricted/etd.pdf
>>
>> 2.4 Secondary Metabolites of Black Locust and Effect on Animals
>> As mentioned previously, the heartwood of BL is primarily used for fence
>> posts,
>> poles, railroad ties, and mine timbers and can endure for over 100 years
>> in
>> the soil. Its
>> remarkable decay resistance is due to high flavonoid concentrations (6%
>> of dry
>> weight),
>> specifically the constituents, robtin (15,000 ppm), robinetin (20,000 to
>> 80,000 ppm) and
>> dihydrorobinetin (53,000 to 176,000 ppm)(Smith et al., 1989). Other,
>> flavonoids present in
>> the heartwood are butein, butin, fisetin, fustin, and liquiritigenin
>> (Duke,
>> 2000)
>>
>> On Monday 25 August 2008 12:59:21 pm paul wheaton wrote:
>>> I have asked this question about 20 times in all sorts of different
>>> places. Any time anybody seems like they might possibly know ...
>>>
>>> So I ask it again here.
>>>
>>> In case nobody knows, I hope that somebody might carry this question
>>> with them and maybe some day spot an answer.
>>>
>>> So we know that black locust wood lasts a long time. Old time farmers
>>> would call it "stone wood" claiming that it would last longer than
>>> stones when used as fence posts.
>>>
>>> Why? Does it have some anti-fungal property? Anti-microbial? I've
>>> heard some people say something about it could be because it is just
>>> so dense - but that doesn't seem right either. Other dense woods seem
>>> to decompose fairly rapidly.
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> Google command to search archives:
>> site:http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture searchstring
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 22:12:46 -0500
> From: "Jim Powell (Madison Environmental Justice Organization)"
> <jimpowell at mejo.us>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <48B374AE.4090105 at mejo.us>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> This is great! Thanks.
>
> I have a cord of black locust, and love the way it burns. It's from the
> previous owner of my land who hated black locust because she thought of
> it an an invasive. I also have a great black locust fence, that I sure
> hope last 100 years, as you write. We border some park land, and that's
> how they treat it too--an invasive to be rid of. It does grow like
> crazy, but then the pioneers here in south central Wisconsin planted in
> on purpose.
>
> Echoing a previous question: any idea why it grows like crazy, at least
> on occasion? Apparently it didn't grow to like crazy for 150 years (when
> the pioneers planted it), but now it does (or people think it does).
>
> JIM
> Rock River Watershed
> South Central Wisconsin
>
> Jay Woods wrote:
>> http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/theses/available/etd-11242003-154755/unrestricted/etd.pdf
>>
>> 2.4 Secondary Metabolites of Black Locust and Effect on Animals
>> As mentioned previously, the heartwood of BL is primarily used for fence
>> posts,
>> poles, railroad ties, and mine timbers and can endure for over 100 years
>> in
>> the soil. Its
>> remarkable decay resistance is due to high flavonoid concentrations (6%
>> of dry
>> weight),
>> specifically the constituents, robtin (15,000 ppm), robinetin (20,000 to
>> 80,000 ppm) and
>> dihydrorobinetin (53,000 to 176,000 ppm)(Smith et al., 1989). Other,
>> flavonoids present in
>> the heartwood are butein, butin, fisetin, fustin, and liquiritigenin
>> (Duke,
>> 2000)
>>
>> On Monday 25 August 2008 12:59:21 pm paul wheaton wrote:
>>
>>> I have asked this question about 20 times in all sorts of different
>>> places. Any time anybody seems like they might possibly know ...
>>>
>>> So I ask it again here.
>>>
>>> In case nobody knows, I hope that somebody might carry this question
>>> with them and maybe some day spot an answer.
>>>
>>> So we know that black locust wood lasts a long time. Old time farmers
>>> would call it "stone wood" claiming that it would last longer than
>>> stones when used as fence posts.
>>>
>>> Why? Does it have some anti-fungal property? Anti-microbial? I've
>>> heard some people say something about it could be because it is just
>>> so dense - but that doesn't seem right either. Other dense woods seem
>>> to decompose fairly rapidly.
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
>> Google command to search archives:
>> site:http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture searchstring
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 21:41:51 -0700
> From: "paul wheaton" <paul at richsoil.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
> <22d4eb790808252141y6bcbe8bdg17ab6d4e3b3ebbcf at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> So I went to add this excellent link to my online notes and I see that
> Toby Hemenway did, indeed answer this question some time ago. And I
> even responded. How could I forget that?
>
> His response was quite interesting. Something about big heaps of
> natural fungicides that are strongly locked up in the wood. So the
> wood won't rot and at the same time the fungicides don't ooze into
> other stuff.
>
> More at
> http://www.permies.com/permaculture-forums/224_0/organic-practices/what-makes-black-locust-last-so-long-is-it-safe-for-gardens
>
> On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 6:46 PM, paul wheaton <paul at richsoil.com> wrote:
>> Thanks for the link Jay! Lots of excellent info!
>>
>> Some of it was over my head, but I did manage to learn quite a few
>> things.
>>
>> I tried to find out what flavonoids were, and I found out that they
>> prevent cancer. But that doesn't help me to understand how they make
>> the wood last so long. Do flavonoids poison natures composters? Are
>> flavonoids like some sort of natural plastic?
>>
>>> http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/theses/available/etd-11242003-154755/unrestricted/etd.pdf
>>>
>>> 2.4 Secondary Metabolites of Black Locust and Effect on Animals
>>> As mentioned previously, the heartwood of BL is primarily used for fence
>>> posts,
>>> poles, railroad ties, and mine timbers and can endure for over 100 years
>>> in
>>> the soil. Its
>>> remarkable decay resistance is due to high flavonoid concentrations (6%
>>> of dry
>>> weight),
>>> specifically the constituents, robtin (15,000 ppm), robinetin (20,000 to
>>> 80,000 ppm) and
>>> dihydrorobinetin (53,000 to 176,000 ppm)(Smith et al., 1989). Other,
>>> flavonoids present in
>>> the heartwood are butein, butin, fisetin, fustin, and liquiritigenin
>>> (Duke,
>>> 2000)
>>>
>>> On Monday 25 August 2008 12:59:21 pm paul wheaton wrote:
>>>> I have asked this question about 20 times in all sorts of different
>>>> places. Any time anybody seems like they might possibly know ...
>>>>
>>>> So I ask it again here.
>>>>
>>>> In case nobody knows, I hope that somebody might carry this question
>>>> with them and maybe some day spot an answer.
>>>>
>>>> So we know that black locust wood lasts a long time. Old time farmers
>>>> would call it "stone wood" claiming that it would last longer than
>>>> stones when used as fence posts.
>>>>
>>>> Why? Does it have some anti-fungal property? Anti-microbial? I've
>>>> heard some people say something about it could be because it is just
>>>> so dense - but that doesn't seem right either. Other dense woods seem
>>>> to decompose fairly rapidly.
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 04:16:40 -0500
> From: Jay Woods <woodsjay at cox.net>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <200808260416.40174.woodsjay at cox.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Are you gardening under the trees and cultivating. That will trigger
> suckering
> from root clipping.
>
> On Monday 25 August 2008 10:12:46 pm Jim Powell (Madison Environmental
> Justice
> Organization) wrote:
>> This is great! Thanks.
>>
>> I have a cord of black locust, and love the way it burns. It's from the
>> previous owner of my land who hated black locust because she thought of
>> it an an invasive. I also have a great black locust fence, that I sure
>> hope last 100 years, as you write. We border some park land, and that's
>> how they treat it too--an invasive to be rid of. It does grow like
>> crazy, but then the pioneers here in south central Wisconsin planted in
>> on purpose.
>>
>> Echoing a previous question: any idea why it grows like crazy, at least
>> on occasion? Apparently it didn't grow to like crazy for 150 years (when
>> the pioneers planted it), but now it does (or people think it does).
>>
>> JIM
>> Rock River Watershed
>> South Central Wisconsin
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 09:30:26 -0400
> From: lbsaltzman at aol.com
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
> To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <8CAD5970891DF11-1684-44F0 at webmail-ne14.sysops.aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Flavanoids frequently?act as anti-oxidents.? I don't know what
> happens?once the lumber is cut,?but possibly the presence of anti-oxidents
> slows down the decay process. Just a guess.?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: paul wheaton <paul at richsoil.com>
> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 6:46 pm
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
>
>
>
> Thanks for the link Jay! Lots of excellent info!
>
> Some of it was over my head, but I did manage to learn quite a few things.
>
> I tried to find out what flavonoids were, and I found out that they
> prevent cancer. But that doesn't help me to understand how they make
> the wood last so long. Do flavonoids poison natures composters? Are
> flavonoids like some sort of natural plastic?
>
>> http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/theses/available/etd-11242003-154755/unrestricted/etd.pdf
>>
>> 2.4 Secondary Metabolites of Black Locust and Effect on Animals
>> As mentioned previously, the heartwood of BL is primarily used for fence
>> posts,
>> poles, railroad ties, and mine timbers and can endure for over 100 years
>> in
>> the soil. Its
>> remarkable decay resistance is due to high flavonoid concentrations (6%
>> of dry
>> weight),
>> specifically the constituents, robtin (15,000 ppm), robinetin (20,000 to
>> 80,000 ppm) and
>> dihydrorobinetin (53,000 to 176,000 ppm)(Smith et al., 1989). Other,
>> flavonoids present in
>> the heartwood are butein, butin, fisetin, fustin, and liquiritigenin
>> (Duke,
>> 2000)
>>
>> On Monday 25 August 2008 12:59:21 pm paul wheaton wrote:
>>> I have asked this question about 20 times in all sorts of different
>>> places. Any time anybody seems like they might possibly know ...
>>>
>>> So I ask it again here.
>>>
>>> In case nobody knows, I hope that somebody might carry this question
>>> with them and maybe some day spot an answer.
>>>
>>> So we know that black locust wood lasts a long time. Old time farmers
>>> would call it "stone wood" claiming that it would last longer than
>>> stones when used as fence posts.
>>>
>>> Why? Does it have some anti-fungal property? Anti-microbial? I've
>>> heard some people say something about it could be because it is just
>>> so dense - but that doesn't seem right either. Other dense woods seem
>>> to decompose fairly rapidly.
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> permaculture mailing list
>> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mail
> man/listinfo/permaculture
>> Google command to search archives:
>> site:http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture searchstring
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
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>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 09:37:51 -0400
> From: Toby Hemenway <toby at patternliteracy.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] what makes black locust last so long?
> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <48B4072F.1060102 at patternliteracy.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>
> Jay Woods wrote:
>> Are you gardening under the trees and cultivating. That will trigger
>> suckering
>> from root clipping.
> Jay has named the cause of the "invasive" property of black locust. If
> we're being more careful with language, black locust is better termed
> "expansive," since it's merely spreading, like bamboo, into directly
> adjacent soil, as opposed to "dispersive", which, unlike black locust,
> means setting seed and flying off into new environments. The word
> "invasive" is grossly inaccurate, as it puts all the impetus on the
> species. A species' ability to enter a new environment depends on
> qualities of that environment (like natural predators, disturbance,
> unused resources, etc.) more than the qualities of the new species. I
> like Dave Jacke's term of opportunistic far more than the loaded
> "invasive." (Dave is sitting next to me right now at the PDC I'm
> teaching.)
>
> Black locust puts out suckers if the main trunk is cut or if the roots
> are cut (disturbance). So a naive attempt to get rid of it by cutting,
> and then angrily cutting the inevitable suckers in ignorance of the
> intrinsic qualities of the species, will result in exactly the opposite
> of the desired result. And in typical hubris (writer returns to soapbox)
> we then hate the plant instead of holding up a mirror to see the real
> cause of the problem, and trying to understand the character of what we
> are dealing with.
>
> So how do you work with nature instead of against? If you are determined
> to get rid of this valuable, multi-functional fast sequesterer of
> carbon, girdle it and wait for it to die before cutting it down. But
> better yet, because girdling doesn't always work, in an act of
> ecological aikido, use the shoots as coppice for firewood, browse,
> wattle-and-daub construction, small fence supports, and a hundred other
> things.
>
> Toby
> http://patternliteracy.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
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>
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