[permaculture] permaculture Digest, Vol 53, Issue 36

J Kolenovsky garden at hal-pc.org
Thu Jun 14 16:07:27 EDT 2007


I haven't seen this many on one digest number in quite some time.

-- 
J. Kolenovsky, habitat environmentalist  www.celestialhabitats.com
Energy shortages proves its right. Peak Oil is changing your lifestyle.
www.energybulletin.net www.peak-oil-news.info/  www.theoildrum.com/


-----Original Message-----
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[mailto:permaculture-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
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Sent: June 14, 2007 10:12 AM
To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 53, Issue 36

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: greenschooling (Jamie Nicol)
   2. Re: greenschooling (Kenneth Benway)
   3. Re: greenschooling (Linda Shewan)
   4. Re: greenschooling (KNat)
   5. Re: Politics-Is it relevant to Permaculture? (jedd)
   6. Re: What to grow on your quarter acre (lbsaltzman at aol.com)
   7. Re: Politics-Is it relevant to Permaculture?
      (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
   8. Politics and Permaculture (Cindy)
   9. Re: filtering for topic preferences on this list. (Kenneth Benway)
  10. Re: greenschooling (Stephen Figgins)
  11. Organic no-till for dry-land farming? (Dieter Brand)
  12. Filtering for Topic Preferences on this List (Darren Doherty)
  13. Controlling crab grass (Dieter Brand)
  14. Re: Politics-Is it relevant to Permaculture? (Primal Parent)
  15. Re: Politics-Is it relevant to Permaculture? (Kenneth Benway)
  16. Re: Politics and Permaculture (permafrog at riseup.net)
  17. Re: Politics-Is it relevant to Permaculture? (Karen Potts)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:30:46 +0200
From: "Jamie Nicol" <souscayrous at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] greenschooling
To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
	<a6abcbad0706140230v7f29437av3350a18df44ed9fa at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Dear Jenny, with two children of 6 and 10, and with the plan of setting
up a
natural school on 22 hectares of natural farm close to Florence, Italy;
I'd
like very much to keep in touch with your efforts.

Good Luck

Anne
Souscayrous

On 6/14/07, Jenny Katz <jennykatz at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> Hi all--
>
> I've been playing around with something I'm calling "greenschooling"--
> education in the permacultural mold, which is to say: environmentally
> based, but taking nature as structure and model rather than just as
> subject matter. Greenschooling, in other words, is education that
> grows the awareness of learning (and living) in relationship. All
> knowledge, of course, as I don't need to tell you permies, exists in
> relationship; the patterns of "knowledge" and "truth," like the
> patterns of "tree" or "zone one," emerge as a relationship between
> knower and known, between self and environment, between fact and
> context.
>
> I'm trying to figure out what to do with these ideas. I'd be
> homeschooling, but my ex-husband says no, so I'm trying to see the
> gift in that and develop something greater--a solution that benefits
> not only my own two kids (ages 6 and 10) but also helps other
> families, too. I'm interested in developing a series of simple
> techniques (awareness techniques, maybe) that anyone, of any age,
> could implement at any time to increase his or her understanding of
> these patterns, these relationships. I don't want to create a new
> curriculum; instead, I want to shape a lens for understanding the
> indivisible classroom--the curriculum that the world is presenting us
> at all times. It's easy to see and feel the connections when we're in
> the garden or in the woods; harder to do so during math class or the
> dentist appointment. But they're no less valid, and no less present,
> in math class. I want to try and figure out some ways to make this
> clear.
>
> I'm gonna get a website up soon, either at greenschooling.com or at
> indivisibleclassroom.com. If anyone has any suggestions of great
> resources or great people, I'd love to hear...
>
> yours,
> Jenny in Connecticut
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> -go to the above link to subscribe to or unsubscribe from this list-
>


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 06:27:39 -0400
From: "Kenneth Benway" <ken at arcadiandesign.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] greenschooling
To: "'permaculture'" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <000001c7ae6e$a2c19660$660aa8d2 at arcadian.local>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250

Jenny,
	This sounds like a great idea! Both domain names really sound
great. Have you begun a curriculum outline as of yet? How might that
look in the context of a Permaculture framework? By that I mean what are
the zone zero (core courses) for early childhood? Zone two
curriculums..... Perhaps the schooling could somewhat be analogous to
the natural processes of human development. Starting in the womb and
gradually expanding and growing outward until we facilitate the full
creative potential of the human spirit.
	Before you set up your website please let me get back to you
with the name of a hosting service that is supposed to have some
powerful tools built in to maximize your web presence and traffic
potential. I can't remember the name of the company at this time but
will send you the link as soon as I get it from my friend that told me
about it. He has been investigating the best web hosting services out
there for several months and swears this is among the best if not the
best.
	We have a 14yr old daughter who insists on remaining in the
public system (social butterfly) as she enters her first year of high
school. In retrospect I wish we had stayed on a home schooling path with
her but economic constraints made it difficult. 
	This fall we are going to try what the county calls "virtual
schooling" which is internet based. She has already started to play
around with it this summer and is going to try it first semester in the
fall but insists that once a slot opens up in her school of choice (more
demand than class rooms) she will go back to be with some of her
friends. It is our hope that she will become so excited with the
internet approach that she will just forget about the idea of going back
to the state run corporate school building. The web courses interface
with many clubs and groups that are related to different courses in the
curriculum. They put field trips together and coordinate transportation
etc. 
	I will keep you updated if you are interested in how she adapts
to this new learning environment. It could just be some feedback for
your project, you know, field notes from the laboratory of life in the
real world of education. 
	Anyway I am very excited about hearing how your efforts unfold. 
Education is an area that often gets overlooked (other than design
course content) in a Permaculture discussion other than Waldorf or
Montessori and a few others. I think the time has come for someone to
synthesize the best of them into a comprehensive teaching approach that
evolves from the Permaculture dynamic.
Best wishes,
Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Jenny Katz
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 12:10 AM
To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [permaculture] greenschooling

Hi all--

I've been playing around with something I'm calling "greenschooling"-- 
education in the permacultural mold, which is to say: environmentally  
based, but taking nature as structure and model rather than just as  
subject matter. Greenschooling, in other words, is education that  
grows the awareness of learning (and living) in relationship. All  
knowledge, of course, as I don't need to tell you permies, exists in  
relationship; the patterns of "knowledge" and "truth," like the  
patterns of "tree" or "zone one," emerge as a relationship between  
knower and known, between self and environment, between fact and  
context.

I'm trying to figure out what to do with these ideas. I'd be  
homeschooling, but my ex-husband says no, so I'm trying to see the  
gift in that and develop something greater--a solution that benefits  
not only my own two kids (ages 6 and 10) but also helps other  
families, too. I'm interested in developing a series of simple  
techniques (awareness techniques, maybe) that anyone, of any age,  
could implement at any time to increase his or her understanding of  
these patterns, these relationships. I don't want to create a new  
curriculum; instead, I want to shape a lens for understanding the  
indivisible classroom--the curriculum that the world is presenting us  
at all times. It's easy to see and feel the connections when we're in  
the garden or in the woods; harder to do so during math class or the  
dentist appointment. But they're no less valid, and no less present,  
in math class. I want to try and figure out some ways to make this  
clear.

I'm gonna get a website up soon, either at greenschooling.com or at  
indivisibleclassroom.com. If anyone has any suggestions of great  
resources or great people, I'd love to hear...

yours,
Jenny in Connecticut
_______________________________________________
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permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 20:28:54 +1000
From: "Linda Shewan" <linda.shewan at bryn.com.au>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] greenschooling
To: "permaculture" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
	<81E7377A1303BC46A46DD9DDB0FE82CB33DDC6 at EXCHSV01.bryn.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

Hi Jenny,

This may not be what you are looking for but my boys are 7 and 9 and I
desperately want to work out a way to continue the type of education
they have now into the future, except with perhaps a deeper ecology than
we currently have...

I heard Satish Kumar speak a few weeks ago about his Small School in
England. It was amazing to hear so many of my ideas on schooling are
already happening! This article says it all
http://www.resurgence.org/resurgence/issues/kumarschool226.htm. 

My children are in a Montessori school (progressive Montessori I would
say) in Australia and I am running the sustainability module there as a
volunteer. Some of the small school principles are already in action -
our 6-12 year olds are currently running projects building cob ovens,
chook sheds, a rainforest and an edible maze - so hands on projects
using natural materials in a natural environment are part of our
overriding principles. With this interaction in nature they care for the
site and the people in it - because they created it... 

We have also completed a permaculture site design for the school and one
of the areas within it is a food forest which will be run on Natural
Farming Principles. So far we have distributed seeds with hay scattered
over them to disguise them but the crows and sparrows found them all
within days! So no green manure this year... with the NF framework in
mind we teach the children that we should not expect nature to provide
but to feel blessed when she does. They are learning the weeds they can
eat and not to be afraid of nature - with the seriously deadly spiders
and snakes we have in Australia that one is taking some time! 

I'm not sure if any of this is useful to you but feel free to contact me
off list if it is... 

Please let us know when your website is up.

Cheers, Linda


On 6/14/07, Jenny Katz <jennykatz at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> Hi all--
>
> I've been playing around with something I'm calling "greenschooling"--
> education in the permacultural mold, which is to say: environmentally
> based, but taking nature as structure and model rather than just as
> subject matter. Greenschooling, in other words, is education that
> grows the awareness of learning (and living) in relationship. All
> knowledge, of course, as I don't need to tell you permies, exists in
> relationship; the patterns of "knowledge" and "truth," like the
> patterns of "tree" or "zone one," emerge as a relationship between
> knower and known, between self and environment, between fact and
> context.
>
> I'm trying to figure out what to do with these ideas. I'd be
> homeschooling, but my ex-husband says no, so I'm trying to see the
> gift in that and develop something greater--a solution that benefits
> not only my own two kids (ages 6 and 10) but also helps other
> families, too. I'm interested in developing a series of simple
> techniques (awareness techniques, maybe) that anyone, of any age,
> could implement at any time to increase his or her understanding of
> these patterns, these relationships. I don't want to create a new
> curriculum; instead, I want to shape a lens for understanding the
> indivisible classroom--the curriculum that the world is presenting us
> at all times. It's easy to see and feel the connections when we're in
> the garden or in the woods; harder to do so during math class or the
> dentist appointment. But they're no less valid, and no less present,
> in math class. I want to try and figure out some ways to make this
> clear.
>
> I'm gonna get a website up soon, either at greenschooling.com or at
> indivisibleclassroom.com. If anyone has any suggestions of great
> resources or great people, I'd love to hear...
>
> yours,
> Jenny in Connecticut
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> -go to the above link to subscribe to or unsubscribe from this list-
>
_______________________________________________
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http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 06:24:20 -0500
From: KNat <knat at sprintmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] greenschooling
To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <46712564.5020909 at sprintmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Jenny Katz wrote:
> Hi all--
>
> I've been playing around with something I'm calling "greenschooling"--

> education in the permacultural mold, which is to say: environmentally

> based, but taking nature as structure and model rather than just as  
> subject matter. 
Here's link to my Public School attempt. The website is not highest 
priority. The kids are top, the curriculum in software any school can 
use second. Feel free to contact me direct. We are granted to write up 
the curriculum this summer (which you can imagine is the most 
interesting part- tracking both traditionally and organically.)
http://www.ridgeandvalley.org

Recommend book to begin- Self-Design by Brent Cameron.
His plan best I've seen, and I've been doing this for 25 years. (there 
are other models closer to traditional that are weaning school districts

over but if one could go direct, this would be my choice.)
http://www.wondertree.org/

Connection AERO Alternative Education Resource Organization has a bunch 
of us who are similarly engaged (especially among the School Starters)
http://www.educationrevolution.org/index.html

Peace,
Kathyann



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 22:20:52 +1000
From: jedd <jedd at progsoc.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Politics-Is it relevant to Permaculture?
To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <200706142220.53174.jedd at progsoc.org>
Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="iso-8859-1"

On Thu, 14 Jun 2007, Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote:
> Do you live in Australia, Jedd?

 Yup.

 But I don't assume that everyone else does.

 cheers,
 Jedd.


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 08:25:44 -0400
From: lbsaltzman at aol.com
Subject: Re: [permaculture] What to grow on your quarter acre
To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <8C97C9643D2DB97-B10-526 at webmail-mf07.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Southern California in the city of?Santa Barbara.


-----Original Message-----
From: Kenneth Benway <ken at arcadiandesign.org>
To: 'permaculture' <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 2:15 am
Subject: Re: [permaculture] What to grow on your quarter acre




-----Original Message-----
rom: permaculture-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
mailto:permaculture-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
bsaltzman at aol.com
ent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 1:40 PM
o: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
ubject: Re: [permaculture] What to grow on your quarter acre

 have slightly over a quarter an acre of land with a house of 1750
quare feet.? Here is a rough inventory of what is on that land.? 
arry,
here are you located?
en

?Overstory trees
0 Food bearing trees, mostly fruit with some nut and edible seed trees.
rapes
 variety of berries and gooseberry.? 
umerous perennial vegetables including artichokes, chayote, Cannas, hot
hile pepper bushes, sweet potatos and misc. other plants.
here is still room for annual vegetables, medicinal and culinary herbs,
oses and other plants.
We are not yet at the maximum number of useful plants and treesout yet
n what can be planted on this size plot.

arry Saltzman
-----Original Message-----
rom: Sharon Gordon <gordonse at one.net>
o: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
ent: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 8:15 am
ubject: [permaculture] What to grow on your quarter acre


/4 acre =
/10 hectare
,890 square feet
12 square metre
 square rods
standard UK allotment plots of 10 poles or rods, usually 30 by 91 feet
ow much space would you use for your house, shed, and greenhouse?  For
he
rposes of the discussion experiment, assume that four people live and
at
re.
here is your plot?  What natural resources does it have?
hat do you think would be good dimensions for the plot?  Nearly square
uld require the least fencing compared to a rectangular plot, but
sthetically people usually prefer a plot that is in the ratio of about

it to 3 units.  For other favorite ratios, consider standard paper or
otograph sizes.
ow would you lay out the various sections of the plot?
haron
rdonse at one.net
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------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 08:49:58 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl at intrex.net>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Politics-Is it relevant to Permaculture?
To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <46713976.4070806 at intrex.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

jedd wrote:

> On Thu, 14 Jun 2007, Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote:
> 
>>Do you live in Australia, Jedd?
> 
> 
>  Yup.
> 
>  But I don't assume that everyone else does.
> 
>  cheers,
>  Jedd.

I don't know why you'd assume that, Jedd. I think I live in Oz all the
time.

Just call me Toto.

-- 
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
Venaura Farm
lfl at intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://market-farming.com/venaurafarm
http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 06:22:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Cindy <intjring at yahoo.com>
Subject: [permaculture] Politics and Permaculture
To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <62489.17914.qm at web50809.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Sorry, I honestly don't see how politics connects very
well to permaculture. To me, the emphasis of politics
is competing interests, and the parties continually
attempt to create divisions and competition even where
none exist to establish their bases. OTOH,
permaculture emphasizes unity in caring for others.

Further, as someone else said, politics relies on
delegating power to others; permaculture involves
taking power back. Politics generates blame;
permaculture takes responsibility.

Ken, I may come by one of your info sessions to say hi
this weekend and will e-mail you.

Cindy


 
________________________________________________________________________
____________
Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate 
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367


------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 09:29:55 -0400
From: "Kenneth Benway" <ken at arcadiandesign.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] filtering for topic preferences on this
	list.
To: "'permaculture'" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <000401c7ae88$1925a030$660aa8d2 at arcadian.local>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250

Hello to all Permaculture list participants:

I have only been plugged into this list for a little over a week or so.
So I guess I'm somewhat of a rookie. Since the beginning of my
participation I have been amazed at the breadth of knowledge and
information being communicated in this community. I wonder how this ever
got by me. Anyway I'm here now and I sincerely appreciate all of you
from around the globe. This list has become my prime source for
Permaculture dialogue.
 
This list experience for me has, at times been painful as well. What do
I mean by that? What I mean is that I have observed numerous instances
of personal attacks on individuals that from what I can tell are mostly
unprovoked, myself included. Upon reflection I was pondering how much
human potential energy has been wasted as a result of this unproductive
dialog (some of it generated by myself, I admit).I would also like to
share that I do not take these attacks personally. Fortunately I've been
blessed with a menu of tools that allow me to go inside and transcend
the illusion of duality.

In addition, I have been observing a pattern of complaints related
specifically to the bombardment of topics that have no interest to some.
I can appreciate the frustration of opening up your mail box and being
bombarded by a hundred emails where you may be interested in a few.
After careful consideration I have come to the conclusion that due to
the high level of participation on this list as well as the huge variety
of topics being discussed that a blog might be a better format to
encompass the breadth of topics. The advantages of the blog format are
numerous, two being the ability to see the history surrounding a
specific topic as well as graphics capability.
 
My question is; does anyone have a favorite blog site that breaks down
into topical areas? By that I mean one that has the global power of
participation that we observe on this list, but more importantly one
that allows someone to enter a specific topic area and converse with
individuals that are truly interested in that topic.

I would appreciate having this information if anyone is able to provide
it. 

Sincerely,
Ken Benway
Arcadian Design
St Petersburg Fl
www.kenbenway.com

 

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------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 08:58:32 -0500
From: Stephen Figgins <stephen at plainscraft.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] greenschooling
To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <99F55414-580A-416A-A832-F986536FE150 at plainscraft.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed

Sounds great, Jenny!

I have some experience with a school that teaches something similar  
to what I think you have in mind, the Wilderness Awareness School in  
Duvall, Washington.  To get a better understanding of that school I  
spent a couple of years up near Duvall.  I participated in local  
events they held and volunteered to help at they summer day camps  
working with kids the same age as yours.   I was very impressed.

They have developed something like greenschooling techniques already,  
based on the techniques used by tribal people around the world to  
develop awareness in their children and to pattern their minds on the  
natural world.  They teach these techniques in their Art of Mentoring  
program and they employ them in a community school that primarily  
serves homeschooling families in the Seattle area.  They have also  
been working on adapting their techniques for use by school  
teachers.  They teach some special mentoring courses aimed at  
educators and are developing a book aimed at more traditional teachers.

They have a correspondence course that you can take to develop  
wilderness awareness skills.  It incorporates as many of these  
techniques  as they can without a direct mentoring relationship. This  
is called the Kamana program.  That program is more appropriate for  
older kids and adults.  It requires a good deal of self discipline  
too.  A couple of people at the school have been adapting the Kamana  
program for a younger crowd and have some simple books that work  
great to introduce the concept to children as young as yours.  My  
kids (8 and 11) really like them.   Since they are self published  
with lots of color illustrations they are a bit on the expensive side  
but I do recommend them.

There is some wilderness awareness school/permaculture crossover on  
the west coast where some instructors work with both.  I believe this  
is a wonderful way to work with the outer zones and to bring that  
awareness and understanding back into the inner zones.

If you have more questions about the school I would be happy to  
answer them though I'm mostly just a student and a fan of the  
school.  The school started in New Jersey and they still have a lot  
of students and former instructors on the east coast so you should be  
able to get a quick leg up in establishing a greenschool there.    
Here are some online resources to help you begin your exploration:

The Wilderness Awareness School:
   http://www.wildernessawareness.org

A sister school in southern Maine:
   http://www.whitepineprograms.org/

An online forum for students of WAS:
   http://www.naturetalk.net/


If you have an interest in herbalism and wildcrafting you might also  
check out the resources one of their former instructors has put  
together - a simple kit for getting started making salves and  
tinctures and a chutes and ladders type game that builds an  
understanding of native plants with medicinal uses.

   http://www.learningherbs.com/

Best of luck in your endeavors.  I hope to hear more about your  
development of greenschooling!


- Stephen
   from the Kansas Area Watershed


------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 07:09:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dieter Brand <diebrand at yahoo.com>
Subject: [permaculture] Organic no-till for dry-land farming?
To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <993681.49333.qm at web63406.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Sue,
   
  My Internet link doesn?t allow me to watch videos online; however, the
few glimpses
  I managed to get of Peter Andrews? video seemed to show bulldozers
engaged
  in earthworks on a gigantic scale. The very thing I?m trying to avoid.

   
  I was more inspired by Mr. Piri?s (a Zimbabwean farmer) experience of
self-education
  in matters of water conservation which made the rounds a couple of
years ago.
  You may have seen it already, if not, you should be able to find it
soon enough
  by searching Google for "the man who harvested water".
   
  Different from Peter, Mr. Piri used only hand tools and his own labour
to convert
  a barren hillside property into a staged garden with numerous
structures for 
  preventing run-offs and storing water.
   
  There is of course a difference in scale; however, Mr. Piri?s approach
has the 
  advantage that it is unlikely to bankrupt you.
   
  Dieter Brand
  Portugal
   
   
  Sue wrote:
   
  Dieter is describing "Instead I have started collected stones, wooden
logs, etc. to build a multitude of little barriers across the water
lines and around the growing areas. An undisturbed soil is the best
water storage means". This is similar to what Peter Andrews did and can
be seen on YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7pMDHJ1sbY&mode=related&search= Also put
in permaculture into that search for quite a few film clips. Even the
internet can help us communicate the message Sue 

       
---------------------------------
Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo!
TV. 

------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 07:09:19 -0700
From: "Darren Doherty" <darren at permaculture.biz>
Subject: [permaculture] Filtering for Topic Preferences on this List
To: "Permaculture List" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
	<cef38c330706140709t7daa017la6a72ee008cba1b5 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

G'day,

Thanks for the valid comments. I don't buy into what I see as
infantile crap and 'delete'my way along without a moments thought -
its just like spam to me...unfortunately that's life on the
internet...

I do recommend people subscribe to the Permaculture Research
institute's discussion forum (http://forums.permaculture.org.au/) as
it partitions discussions according to topic (as you've suggested). It
has over 1900 members many of whom are very active practitioners -
plus the inevitable coterie of personality types who have interesting
means of interacting with others and who leave their manners well away
from the QWERTY - just like here and just like every other forum I've
seen.

-- 
Hooroo,
Darren J. Doherty
www.permaculture.biz

US Cell: +1 805 455.8914
Yahoo Voice Phone: +1 310 237 6970

WORLD TOUR 2007/8
North America/Europe
Permaculture Design Certificate Course (72hours)
Keyline Design Course (2-6days)


------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 07:38:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dieter Brand <diebrand at yahoo.com>
Subject: [permaculture] Controlling crab grass
To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <271966.60212.qm at web63406.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Hi,
   
  I?m not sure if the term "crab grass" is used in the US. Anyway, it is
  the kind of grass that propagates by whitish rhizomes underground,
  by runners on the surface and by seeds. It is extremely invasive
during
  the summer and goes dormant during the winter.
   
  Whenever I dig out some of this grass from my vegetable garden I?m
  astonished by the quality of the soil which seems to be far superior
in
  places with crab grass than in places without. I always regret having 
  to disturb the soil and thereby destroying its structure in addition
to 
  removing the organic matter of the grass itself.
   
  Hence I wonder, is there any way of controlling crab grass, for
example
  by crowding out or by means of allelophatic properties? Or better
still,
  are there any crops that can compete with crab grass during the
  summer, which would allow me to leave the grass in the soil?
   
  Dieter Brand
  Portugal

       
---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. 

------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 14:41:00 +0000
From: "Primal Parent" <primalparent at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Politics-Is it relevant to Permaculture?
To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <BAY135-F37EC6B1A69B3274084DE7AD81F0 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed



Kenneth Benway wrote:

"We must win this battle in the U.S. or our freedoms here
will be lost and our planet and all her people will continue to suffer
as a result."


didn't crazy horse say the exact same thing?

_________________________________________________________________
Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN

http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm



------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 10:56:57 -0400
From: "Kenneth Benway" <ken at arcadiandesign.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Politics-Is it relevant to Permaculture?
To: "'permaculture'" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <001401c7ae94$41829c20$660aa8d2 at arcadian.local>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250

Primal Parent,
Yes he did, and I for one would like to see them get all there land
back. 
All of the tribes, getting all of their land back. Nothing less really
matters to me, except to the degree the current system might serve to
accomplish that goal. After all we have plenty of evidence demonstrating
how the current system treats mother earth don't we.
Sincerely,
Golden Eagle
(Ken)

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Primal
Parent
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 10:41 AM
To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Politics-Is it relevant to Permaculture?



Kenneth Benway wrote:

"We must win this battle in the U.S. or our freedoms here
will be lost and our planet and all her people will continue to suffer
as a result."


didn't crazy horse say the exact same thing?

_________________________________________________________________
Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN

http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm

_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
-go to the above link to subscribe to or unsubscribe from this list-

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.15/847 - Release Date:
6/12/2007 9:42 PM
 

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.15/847 - Release Date:
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------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 08:07:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: permafrog at riseup.net
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Politics and Permaculture
To: "permaculture" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <3112.127.0.0.1.1181833665.squirrel at tern.riseup.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1

It seems some people have little understanding of what politics is. I
agree that as it is currently practised here in Canada, for example  it
is
all about competing interests vying for control but that is a mutation
of
what politics is meant to be. Politics is how we order society and meet
the needs of society's members.

>From a permaculture perspective we would look to Nature to define a
governance model that enables all to thrive. A model that understands
balance and sharing the surplus so that all can thrive.  Local control
over resources and local food production with trade taking place with
the
villages nearest to us and then spreading out from there if need
demands.

Our current municipal councils may come the closest to a workable
existing
structure.

we may be a long way from the model but politics is very much
pemacuture.

It could be
On Thu, June 14,
Bob Ewing Communications
http://bobewing.org


------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 08:12:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Karen Potts <karen_potts at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Politics-Is it relevant to Permaculture?
To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <67561.9954.qm at web33004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

If you saw Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee (awesome premiered on HBO
recently) the credits at the end describe that the Sioux Indians will
not claim the dollar award that they won in the 80's (I believe) which
is now worth $600 million. The Federal Govt refused their claim of the
land but the courts awarded them money instead.  They simply WANT the
Black Hills, SD returned to them because this land is spiritual and
because it was awarded to them in the original treaty.    End of Story.
   
  Karen

Kenneth Benway <ken at arcadiandesign.org> wrote:
  Primal Parent,
Yes he did, and I for one would like to see them get all there land
back. 
All of the tribes, getting all of their land back. Nothing less really
matters to me, except to the degree the current system might serve to
accomplish that goal. After all we have plenty of evidence demonstrating
how the current system treats mother earth don't we.
Sincerely,
Golden Eagle
(Ken)

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:permaculture-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Primal
Parent
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 10:41 AM
To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Politics-Is it relevant to Permaculture?



Kenneth Benway wrote:

"We must win this battle in the U.S. or our freedoms here
will be lost and our planet and all her people will continue to suffer
as a result."


didn't crazy horse say the exact same thing?

_________________________________________________________________
Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN

http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm

_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
-go to the above link to subscribe to or unsubscribe from this list-

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.15/847 - Release Date:
6/12/2007 9:42 PM


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.15/847 - Release Date:
6/12/2007 9:42 PM


_______________________________________________
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          "Nothing can cure the soul but the senses, just as   nothing
can cure the senses but the soul."  Oscar Wilde


  
 
















       
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