[permaculture] Seed or Plants for tropical Mexico

cuauhtemoc landeros descendingeagle at hotmail.com
Mon Dec 31 00:59:57 EST 2007


Howdy Im working on getting a permaculture/demonstration/education project going in Mexico and was wondering if anyone knows of any great or good nurserys or companies with tropical plants or seeds? Thanks again.   
Lets keep her green and blue.........................> From: permaculture-request at lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: permaculture Digest, Vol 59, Issue 24> To: permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:56:35 -0500> > Send permaculture mailing list submissions to> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to> permaculture-request at lists.ibiblio.org> > You can reach the person managing the list at> permaculture-owner at lists.ibiblio.org> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific> than "Re: Contents of permaculture digest..."> > > Today's Topics:> > 1. (fwd) Re: How to think about climate activism || "Most> Terrifying Video You'll Ever See" (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)> 2. Re: Why Bother With Permaculture? An essay by Ted Trainer> (oliver smith callis)> 3. Mollisons Trust A & Trust B (Laurence Gaffney)> 4. Re: Mollisons Trust A & Trust B (oliver smith callis)> 5. Re: Mollisons Trust A & Trust B (Sean Maley)> 6. Re: Permaculture non-profits (Keith Johnson)> 7. Re: Permaculture non-profits (Sean Maley)> 8. Re: Why Bother With Permaculture? An essay by TedTrainer> (Scott Pittman)> 9. Permaculture People's Party (Healing Hawk)> 10. Re: Mollisons Trust A & Trust B (Robyn Francis)> 11. Re: Permaculture People's Party (Sean Maley)> 12. [Fwd: Nonchemical Way to Control Mosquitoes]> (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)> 13. Re: Permaculture People's Party (Healing Hawk)> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------> > Message: 1> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 01:50:29 -0500> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj at intrex.net>> Subject: [permaculture] (fwd) Re: How to think about climate activism> || "Most Terrifying Video You'll Ever See"> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>, Biodynamic Food and> Farming Discussion <bdnow at envirolink.org>, Sustainable Agriculture> Network Discussion Group <SANET-MG at LISTS.IFAS.UFL.EDU>> Message-ID: <476A10B5.4010907 at intrex.net>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed> > > The whole series:> =================> > Most Terrifying Video You'll Ever See> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDsIFspVzfI> > Patching Holes #1> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGpYI9LcJkA&feature=related> Patching Holes #2> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBy8dEtiCc4&feature=related> Patching Holes #3: The Manpollo Project (Without Explosions> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-JtKsG2fVU> Patching Holes #3: The Manpollo Project (With Explosions)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjqikCEzP7w&feature=related> > How It All Ends: Index> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oCYW4ScUnw&feature=related> How It All Ends: Menu> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoUt4LhkKY0&feature=related> How It All Ends> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF_anaVcCXg&feature=related> > How It All Ends: Nature of Science (pt 1 of 3)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A58X73GnzE&feature=related> How It All Ends: Nature of Science (pt 2 of 3)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls8mYJIncdA&feature=related> How It All Ends: Nature of Science (pt 3 of 3)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DagLYWseing&feature=related> > How It All Ends: Risk Management (pt 1 of 7)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwuDDZ5HM_U&feature=related> How It All Ends: Risk Management (pt 2 of 7)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLoO6qyoV08&feature=related> How It All Ends: Risk Management (pt 3 of 7)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hpNoBfEsLw&feature=related> How It All Ends: Risk Management (pt 4 of 7)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx-7j5lH9gE&feature=related> How It All Ends: Risk Management (pt 5 of 7)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFCS0Pcv-Eg&feature=related> How It All Ends: Risk Management (pt 6 of 7)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnLVSDAbieA&feature=related> How It All Ends: Risk Management (pt 7 of 7)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2F3bw4CmhQ&feature=related> > How It All Ends: Mechanics of GCC (pt 1 of 3)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqEYLvPt0lA&feature=related> How It All Ends: Mechanics of GCC (pt 2 of 3)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29v4FZvhvcc&feature=related> How It All Ends: Mechanics of GCC (pt 3 of 3)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUrNBr6KdRI&feature=related> > How It All Ends: The Manpollo Project (Pt 1 of 2)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7r0dH5R4WA&feature=related> How It All Ends: The Manpollo Project (Pt 2 of 2)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqLzFjUMWwU&feature=related> > How It All Ends: Get What You Want (Pt 1 of 3)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKKd-rGDRHc&feature=related> How It All Ends: Get What You Want (Pt 2 of 3)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwPgv_ynJec&feature=related> How It All Ends: Get What You Want (Pt 3 of 3)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIGXK0xNvdQ&feature=related> > How It All Ends: Why There Is Still Debate (Pt 1 of 2)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpVWFIWZMjk&feature=related> How It All Ends: Why There Is Still Debate (Pt 2 of 2)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS65Pw-O77Y&feature=related> > How It All Ends: Scare Tactics (Pt 1 of 6)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0V9Id6IfJo&feature=related> How It All Ends: Scare Tactics (Pt 2 of 6)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZzlcN4gfTs&feature=related> How It All Ends: Scare Tactics (Pt 3 of 6)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prtpfAaUQA8&feature=related> How It All Ends: Scare Tactics (Pt 4 of 6)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PM4Qu0ht6k&feature=related> How It All Ends: Scare Tactics (Pt 5 of 6)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPW4ZOqLTX4&feature=related> How It All Ends: Scare Tactics (Pt 6 of 6)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Rs-vu2MV2c&feature=related> > How It All Ends: God's Will> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOjCcL1PN_Y> > How It All Ends: I Hope I'm Wrong (Pt 1 of 2)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q81QZxrmsnU&feature=related> How It All Ends: I Hope I'm Wrong (Pt 2 of 2)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmblpxTWffI&feature=related> > How It All Ends: No Holds Barred (Pt 1 of 6)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZJzSURpSpY&feature=related> How It All Ends: No Holds Barred (Pt 2 of 6)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtR0kZaLNxY&feature=related> How It All Ends: No Holds Barred (Pt 3 of 6)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-Ko0U6ncro&feature=related> How It All Ends: No Holds Barred (Pt 4 of 6)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fF1HFz5-G8&feature=related> How It All Ends: No Holds Barred (Pt 5 of 6)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fF1HFz5-G8&feature=related> How It All Ends: No Holds Barred (Pt 6 of 6)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLhLpG0HWkQ&feature=related> > How It All Ends: Trailer (v3)> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twRbGD4zq0s&feature=related> > > > > ------------------------------> > Message: 2> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 02:31:11 -0700> From: "oliver smith callis" <oliversmithcallis at gmail.com>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Why Bother With Permaculture? An essay by> Ted Trainer> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>> Message-ID:> <9e4c50650712200131g3c1edb83m67e7228f60a07058 at mail.gmail.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252> > I just saw that Bill Mollison posted the following on the Tagari Blog a few> days ago, and thought it is relevant:> > *The Permaculture People's Party , by Bill Mollison (Papers and Proposals)> > The Clarion Call.*> *> Preamble: Many of us, and all of us trained in good design for houses and> farms, feel disgusted with the present political systems, which seem to> prefer war to peace, and want or hunger to plenty. We feel we must act to> reverse this intellectual decay and consequent global deterioration.> If we gather our friends, and students of good design, we vastly out-number> the few who have joined "left right" parties. We can take control. We can> legislate to restore the earth, to save and generate forests, to secure> water and clean food supplies, and to live to assist all people to survive,> not to war on them.> All permaculture graduates know how to design life-enhancing houses and> farms. Many are involved in aid programmes, or consult with landowners and> builders. We have, in effect, many thousands of people?years of experience> in building sustainable systems. We have served our apprenticeship as worthy> designers of living systems.> Thus, we believe it is time to take charge of legislating for sustainable> living. Why should we, the majority, put up with the stupidities of the> Liberal/ Labour, Republican/ Democrat, Tory /Socialist dichotomies, whose> efforts are to defeat each other, not to assist all people?> No, we must now vote them all out, and start the urgent repair of society> and the earth itself. Oil men, coal miners, and wood chippers can between> them destroy all of us, for greed. In this, they are assisted by "our> government". To tolerate this is madness. To tolerate the use of biocides is> ridiculous, and to subsidise destructive industries is stupidity. We must> act for sanity and earth-care. Permaculture ethics require us to care for> the earth. The permaculture lifestyle requires us to help others to care for> themselves. Our ethics and lifestyle are the very best training for> responsible government.> By supporting public trusts, Holland has greatly reduced and in fact largely> eliminated the 'public service' (read: public stumbling block) to a very few> people, thus, we must see the real function of government not to invent> policies, but to discover existing policies that work well for problem> solutions.> Most politicians arise from sportsmen, public broadcasters, film stars,> lawyers, and businessmen. None of these can be trusted to evolve sensible> policy; almost all of them operate on conviction based on personal beliefs.> (no basis for sustainable society)> No, policy must be based on well-researched, extant, working models, and> constantly refined by feedback from all levels of users or "consumers" of> that policy. For instance, Finland is noted for the excellence of early> education, Denmark for the volume of exports based on research, Sweden for> developing energy systems that eliminate radio active wastes, or the risks> of atomic energy. And so on???.> Bangladesh has a wonderful system for lending to the poor, involving small> loans, support circles for repayments, and good advice. There are very few> 'bad loans'. We all need to adopt local cash management, credit unions, mini> banks, economies of fair exchange of services and goods, not taxed> expenditure. We do not live to support public servants and bankers in> luxury, or politicians in great comfort, or C.E.Os in obscene wealth. No, it> takes too much misery to keep a few manipulators too fat. We live to help> our families and neighbours live a sustainable existence. This is what> "policy" must be about. *> > > ------------------------------> > Message: 3> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:12:31 +1100> From: "Laurence Gaffney" <lgaffney at bigpond.com>> Subject: [permaculture] Mollisons Trust A & Trust B> To: <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>> Message-ID: <000001c84301$f50e9120$0200000a at default1zw8fr1>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"> > I too would be interested in contributions that can verify or otherwise Bills Trust A & Trust B idea.> I understand that Bill has a (Trust B) Non Profit Trading Trust called McAlistair Trading (XCD Proprietry Limited) the purpose of which according to Bill is to raise funds for his Charitable Trust (A) "The Permaculture Institute" (XAF)> Tagari Publications apparently operates under this Trust B.> > I am unaware of any other "Permaculture People" in Australia who are using this approach.> > I have wondered whether or not the Australian "Company" Sanitarium Health Foods Company which channels its profits to the Seventh Day Adventist Church which is a Charitable Trust may be an example of this structure.> It is the Non Profit Trading Trust (Trust B) in particular that I would like more information about and examples of.> > Laurence Gaffney> > > > > > ------------------------------> > Message: 4> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 05:39:27 -0700> From: "oliver smith callis" <oliversmithcallis at gmail.com>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Mollisons Trust A & Trust B> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>> Message-ID:> <9e4c50650712200439j340954dakaa9d116461875d1a at mail.gmail.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1> > I know that Ecotrust based in Portland is a non profit that has an LLC> for-profit component. In our conversations with them it seems like this> might be similar to what Bill talks about, but I don't have a full grasp of> it yet.> > Non-Profit:> *Ecotrust is a conservation organization committed to strengthening> communities and the environment from Alaska to California. We work with> Native peoples and in the fisheries, forestry, and food sectors to build a> regional economy based on social and ecological opportunities.*> http://www.ecotrust.org/> > For-Profit:> > *Ecotrust Forests LLC (The Fund) owns and manages forestland in the Pacific> Northwest, home to the highest quality investment forestland in the world.> The Fund's objective is to provide long-term value to investors while> nurturing diverse and healthy forests for the region and its inhabitants.*> > *The Fund targets a real annual return of at least 6 percent over the long> term. It strives to be as tax efficient as possible and is designed to> minimize ordinary income. It maintains long-lived, forestland assets that> continuously increase in value, hedge inflation and generate cash returns.*> > *We are seeking accredited individuals, families, foundation and endowment> investors who share our values. We invite you to make a wealth-building> investment and partner with us in ownership of some of the world's most> productive forestland.*> http://www.ecotrustforests.com/> > > ------------------------------> > Message: 5> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 09:43:26 -0800 (PST)> From: Sean Maley <semaley at yahoo.com>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Mollisons Trust A & Trust B> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>> Message-ID: <127158.25735.qm at web52807.mail.re2.yahoo.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1> > This is my understanding of it too, that trust B can be an LLC in most states of USA, except that an LLC isn't well defined in terms of profit or not. Hedge funds have made this entity type very expensive to form (I'm $2000 into it and counting). However, many states do have something often called a "Worker Owned Cooperative", or "Collective", that is like a non-profit, yet allows an equity stake, like the LLC and S/C corporations. It looks like the Design Manual bases some of it's concepts on the Mondragon cooperative, which is also the template for the "Collective" in USA (50 separate laws for 50 independent states, so check local laws).> > http://www.mcc.es/> > Nevertheless, this business structure isn't eligible as a "charity" in the USA (an LLC can be). Even further in the USA is that company ("trust B") B donating to charity ("trust A") A can't operate as a complete model, since the 990 tax forms effectively remove the top donors to a charity as a test for "public support".> > If a non-profit can't show that a certain percentage of funding comes from the "public" then it gets classified as a "private trust", thus losing "charitable" status (donations no longer tax deductible for the donor, i.e. trust B pays taxes). Straight non-profits don't allow for an equity stake.> > Even further, a "charity" can't compete with any business. The IRS considers it an unfair advantage for a charitable business to compete with a regular business (two stores competing, etc).> > Without wide support from the local Permaculture community for whomever sets up the charity for a given region, there is little benefit to setting one up. Not that this has stopped me. I'm just hopeful that everyone figures out what I'm up to in the end.> > Speaking of which, we should all send a donation to the Permaculture Institute near us, or whatever is appropriate. There should be no complaints about lack of service if we aren't sending our money to support them, as outlined in the Design Manual.> > At the same time, the Permaculture Institutes ought to be contacting Caterpillar and requesting a donation of a good size excavator. Go to Yahoo! and look for big businesses in your area. Here in NYC, it's often as simple as bringing a copy of your determination letter and some brochures.> > For a list of Permaculture charities near you:> http://www.guidestar.org/> > Many of these aren't Permaculture charities, so take care to do your research before you donate.> > > -Sean.> oliver smith callis <oliversmithcallis at gmail.com> wrote: I know that Ecotrust based in Portland is a non profit that has an LLC for-profit component. In our conversations with them it seems like this might be similar to what Bill talks about, but I don't have a full grasp of it yet.> > > ---------------------------------> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.> > ------------------------------> > Message: 6> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 13:58:15 -0500> From: Keith Johnson <keithdj at mindspring.com>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Permaculture non-profits> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>> Message-ID: <476ABB47.9050701 at mindspring.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed> > We haven't yet registered our fledgling permaculture non-profit, > ARculture.org (Assoc. for Regenerative Culture) <http://www.ARCulture.org>> with Guidestar but judging by the number of permies who have it would > seem to be an important step.> > Can others report on the advantage this has gained them?> Thanks,> Keith> > Sean Maley wrote:> > Without wide support from the local Permaculture community for whomever sets up the charity for a given region, there is little benefit to setting one up. Not that this has stopped me. I'm just hopeful that everyone figures out what I'm up to in the end.> >> > Speaking of which, we should all send a donation to the Permaculture Institute near us, or whatever is appropriate. There should be no complaints about lack of service if we aren't sending our money to support them, as outlined in the Design Manual.> >> > For a list of Permaculture charities near you:> > http://www.guidestar.org> -- > Keith Johnson> "Be fruitful and mulch apply."> Permaculture Activist Magazine> PO Box 5516, Bloomington, IN 47407> (812) 335-0383> http://www.permacultureactivist.net> http://www.PermacultureTradingPost.com> Switch to Solar Power the Easy Way> http://www.jointhesolution.com/KeithJ-SunPower> http://www.PowUr.com/KeithJ-SunPower> Blog: http://kjpermaculture.blogspot.com/> also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting> http://www.permacultureactivist.net/design/Designconsult.html> also Association for Regenerative Culture> http://www.ARCulture.org> also APPLE-Bloomington (Alliance for a Post-Petroleum Local Economy) It's a small world after oil.> http://www.relocalize.net/groups/applebloomington> also Bloomington Permaculture Guild > > > ------------------------------> > Message: 7> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 12:16:35 -0800 (PST)> From: Sean Maley <semaley at yahoo.com>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Permaculture non-profits> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>> Message-ID: <797611.32482.qm at web52808.mail.re2.yahoo.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1> > >From the guidestar site:> *You must be able to upload a Letter of Determination and Audited Financial Statement to become an Exchange member> > Keith,> > Have you filed the IRS 1023 form, yet? I suspect guidestar lists all charities without asking, despite the above information, as they peddle information like copies of 990 filings and financial data. Supposedly, this is to help validate solicitors. If you get a request for a donation in the mail, you can go to guidestar to make sure it's a legitimate charity or see if there have been any problems.> > Each state also has rules regarding registration with the state when you get the letter from the IRS. Here in NY, we have to register with the charities bureau (attorney general's office) and register anyone publicly soliciting money on our behalf.> > You only need to file the 990 when you make $25k or more or have $250k or more assets.> > Since most Permaculture Institutes would involve education, NY also has an added step of registering with the Department of Education, before filing with the Department of State.> > The State of NY regards operating any unregistered business name as a misdemeanor. I don't understand why so many people and groups have business sounding names, but then I never find them in Department of State name searches. Banks won't even open an account without Department of State documentation and IRS original copies for the EIN (homeland security).> > It sure would be nice to open a business account with PCU.> > > -Sean.> Keith Johnson <keithdj at mindspring.com> wrote: We haven't yet registered our fledgling permaculture non-profit, ARculture.org (Assoc. for Regenerative Culture) with Guidestar but judging by the number of permies who have it would seem to be an important step.> > Can others report on the advantage this has gained them?> Thanks,> Keith> > > ---------------------------------> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.> > ------------------------------> > Message: 8> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 13:51:42 -0700> From: "Scott Pittman" <scott at permaculture.org>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Why Bother With Permaculture? An essay by> TedTrainer> To: "'permaculture'" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>> Message-ID: <000101c8434a$21298830$6a3d920a at 1050A33921534E2>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"> > > > > > Scott Pittman> > Director> > Permaculture Institute> > www.permaculture.org> > -----Original Message-----> From: oliver smith callis [mailto:oliversmithcallis at gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 9:49 AM> To: permaculture> > > > --snip--> > Scott, I imagine you have encountered similar issues in the west of the US> > as well, what is your perspective on how we can effectively approach US> > water law, and an urban sprawl/growth economy with design? I am just> > beginning to learn about how interrelated they are with local politics, as> > well the history of the whole convoluted mess. I just learned that the> > foundation for water law in the west was laid down by the Mormon settlers> > that settled much of it - some of whom were my ancestors - so I hope that my> > understanding of their history and of permaculture can help to> > undo/re-design what they started.> > > > thanks,> > Oliver> > > > Boy! Does this resonate! In New Mexico water laws are very complex and at> best muddy. Officially the state owns all the water and citizen's water> rights are subject to state seizure. On top of this I live in a valley with> four Native American pueblos, all of whom have declared "indigenous" water> rights - which mean they own all the water rights. The people in my> community have been engaged in the longest running law suit (Aamodt suit) in> the federal courts over Pueblo water rights, historic Hispanic water rights,> guaranteed by the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, and Anglo rights. Because> the water has traditionally been used for agriculture there is considerable> tension over the Pueblos opening 36 hole golf courses all over the place> using water to give the illusion of Ireland in the desert.> > > > Many of us find ourselves in the unenviable position of being politically> incorrect when pointing out there are better uses for water than golf,> tourist hotels, and gambling casinos. To many the Native Americans are just> enjoying "payback" for all the suffering and indignities they have suffered> in the past. While acknowledging that they were brutalized and are still> suffering from the effects of conquest and colonization I still think that> there are better uses for water than they are practicing.> > > > What do we do? I think we have to take back the commons, water being a> critical part of that territory. It is extremely difficult when all of our> social and economic fabric is wrapped around the commodification of> everything. I just heard a report from an analyst of venture capital funds> that the hottest two areas for speculative money has been in green energy> startups and homeland security spinoffs. They have pretty much stayed even> until this year in amount of capital invested. This year the green side has> garnered 4.0 billion dollars while homeland security ventures jumped ahead> to 6.2 billion dollars. This means that a lot of investors are betting on> the disasters of climate change to foster a boom in personal security, arms,> mercenary armies, and on and on. I bring this up to emphasize what we are> up against (the commodification of disaster??!!).> > > > I deal with all of this at my community level; I've long since given up on> directly confronting the federal or state machine. Mostly I feel that I am> pouring a lot of energy into maintaining the status quo while at the same> time revealing the lies and corruption as loudly as I can without,> hopefully, being seen as a party pooper or nut. I am also trying hard to> work with my students, professionals, and others to vision an alternative> future. I don't think that we have come up with any real solutions yet. At> the heart of this is how to engage and enroll our communities in a more just> and sane lifestyle.> > > > As I look at alternative currencies, barter systems like LETS, and co-op> movements like Mondragon they all seem to be partial answers but for some> reason none of them seems to generate enough participation to provide all> the needed products and services even in a small community. So rereading> Marx, Engels, Kropotkin, and other economic visionaries seems part of my> search but the more I read and experience the more I am convinced that we> have to come up with a whole new idea. I am convinced that there is a good> design solution out there somewhere hovering on the edges of our collective> consciousness.> > > > So the complicated part is expanding our imagination, in the near term I> work on the regional water plan for the community. I am trying to find> young farmers who will partner with our aging population of farmers who have> land, water, equipment, and most importantly knowledge but are physically> unable to work the land any more. There is an amazing lack of> agriculturalists in our region, which is primarily the result of corporate> agriculture's pricing small farmers out of the market. The pressure is> enormous on these small farmers to sell to developers who will strip the> water off of the farm and put up trailer houses (mobile homes to those who> live in them) or cheap frame houses that leak energy through every joint.> > > > We have been successful in forcing the county and city to impose severe> water restrictions on new construction as well as forcing large developers> to treat and reuse all waste water on site. It is a small victory but a> victory none the less. Our hope is that through the trickle up theory that> the State and ultimately the Fed will take notice and use our local> ordinances to guide their legislation.> > > > Conversations like this and new list serves are springing up all over the> world and our evolving collective knowledge is critical to our future. This> list sharpens my thinking and keeps me honest which is a great service and> that doesn't even touch on the incredible data, and problem solving that is> evidenced here week after week.> > Thanks Lawrence!!> > > > Sorry if this is a little rambling but that is my mood today, my mind is all> over the map, and hopeful...> > > > Scott > > > > ------------------------------> > Message: 9> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 14:53:19 -0600> From: "Healing Hawk" <healinghawk at earthlink.net>> Subject: [permaculture] Permaculture People's Party> To: "'permaculture'" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>,> <austinperm at yahoogroups.com>> Message-ID: <B5ECA87036724481816C49FFCA195F1C at rastus>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"> > Well, there we have it. Doesn't Mollison have the final word? End of> discussion, right? > Okay, now that we know, how do we implement the PPP, or whatever we want to> call it? I'll speak to US political reality. > > Policy is made outside of government, per se, in the think tanks and policy> boards, mostly of the corporatist right, as they are who organized> themselves first. NAM, the National Association of Manufacturers, formed> around the time of the Civil War and has had a say in US economic policy> ever since. On page 20 of _Suiting Themselves_, Sharon Beder has a diagram> of the US corporatist policy infrastructure which includes NAM, the Business> Council, the Committee for Economic Development, the Conference Board,> American Enterprise Institute, the Center for Strategic and International> Studies, the Brookings Institution, the Institute for International> Economics, the Council on Foreign Relations, and the Council on> Competitiveness. Virtually every political news story in the US mainstream> media (aka the corporatist press and media), quotes one or more of these> sources is quoted and used as windows on the status quo in the US political> structure. Thus I suggest something like the US Permaculture Guild (or> whatever people want to name it) that would lobby and become a player in the> policy-making game in DC.> > Electorally, 52% of eligible voters in the US don't even register to vote,> and of those who do, around 50% actually vote. So right away, we see that> less than 25% of eligible voters in the US actually elect the sitting> government. Add in third parties and the percentage shrinks even more. If> we import a lot of politically savvy politicians from one or more of the> existent parties in the US, they end up in control of the party, as they did> in the Green Party, of which I was a part for a while. Democracy looked a> lot like that of the Democratic Party, that is, not at all like real> democracy. That can't be allowed to carry the day in PPP. PPP must> practice authentic democracy, or isocracy (political equality). Either each> person is an equal owner of the decision-making process or each person is> politically equal. I don't know which is better, or if something else> should be invented.> > Most states set the bar pretty high for getting a third party on the ballot.> It takes a major effort of either volunteers or professionals who get paid> to gather signatures of a certain percentage of voters who voted in the last> election who remain registered voters. They can be newly registered voters,> and I suggest registering voters as a means of reaching people sympathetic> to the PPP. Volunteers are better for this because they are more> enthusiastic and inclusive, generally. Volunteers are better for all of it,> but if we're running our Permacultures, we may not have a lot of time to> devote to PPP organizing. If our designs are mature, we have more time. > > There needs to be a national PPP organization and a PPP in each of the> states, too. Each produces its own bylaws, holds conventions, etc. This is> a lot of work. That's why it's left to the Repugnocrats, for the most part,> in the US and perhaps elsewhere. George Washington University offers an> online MA in Political Management. It has two tracks, one electoral and one> advocacy oriented. http://www.gwu.edu/~gspm/ has the info on this program.> It's impressive. PPP has to be as potent as any other organization in any> discussion. We're late to the party.> > Tommy Tolson> Austin, TX > > -----Original Message-----> > *The Permaculture People's Party , by Bill Mollison (Papers and Proposals)> > The Clarion Call.*> *> Preamble: Many of us, and all of us trained in good design for houses and> farms, feel disgusted with the present political systems, which seem to> prefer war to peace, and want or hunger to plenty. We feel we must act to> reverse this intellectual decay and consequent global deterioration.> If we gather our friends, and students of good design, we vastly out-number> the few who have joined "left right" parties. We can take control. We can> legislate to restore the earth, to save and generate forests, to secure> water and clean food supplies, and to live to assist all people to survive,> not to war on them.> All permaculture graduates know how to design life-enhancing houses and> farms. Many are involved in aid programmes, or consult with landowners and> builders. We have, in effect, many thousands of people-years of experience> in building sustainable systems. We have served our apprenticeship as worthy> designers of living systems.> Thus, we believe it is time to take charge of legislating for sustainable> living. Why should we, the majority, put up with the stupidities of the> Liberal/ Labour, Republican/ Democrat, Tory /Socialist dichotomies, whose> efforts are to defeat each other, not to assist all people?> No, we must now vote them all out, and start the urgent repair of society> and the earth itself. Oil men, coal miners, and wood chippers can between> them destroy all of us, for greed. In this, they are assisted by "our> government". To tolerate this is madness. To tolerate the use of biocides is> ridiculous, and to subsidise destructive industries is stupidity. We must> act for sanity and earth-care. Permaculture ethics require us to care for> the earth. The permaculture lifestyle requires us to help others to care for> themselves. Our ethics and lifestyle are the very best training for> responsible government.> By supporting public trusts, Holland has greatly reduced and in fact largely> eliminated the 'public service' (read: public stumbling block) to a very few> people, thus, we must see the real function of government not to invent> policies, but to discover existing policies that work well for problem> solutions.> Most politicians arise from sportsmen, public broadcasters, film stars,> lawyers, and businessmen. None of these can be trusted to evolve sensible> policy; almost all of them operate on conviction based on personal beliefs.> (no basis for sustainable society)> No, policy must be based on well-researched, extant, working models, and> constantly refined by feedback from all levels of users or "consumers" of> that policy. For instance, Finland is noted for the excellence of early> education, Denmark for the volume of exports based on research, Sweden for> developing energy systems that eliminate radio active wastes, or the risks> of atomic energy. And so on....> Bangladesh has a wonderful system for lending to the poor, involving small> loans, support circles for repayments, and good advice. There are very few> 'bad loans'. We all need to adopt local cash management, credit unions, mini> banks, economies of fair exchange of services and goods, not taxed> expenditure. We do not live to support public servants and bankers in> luxury, or politicians in great comfort, or C.E.Os in obscene wealth. No, it> takes too much misery to keep a few manipulators too fat. We live to help> our families and neighbours live a sustainable existence. This is what> "policy" must be about. > > > > ------------------------------> > Message: 10> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 08:22:35 +1100> From: Robyn Francis <erda at nor.com.au>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Mollisons Trust A & Trust B> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>> Message-ID: <C391284B.5AEA%erda at nor.com.au>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"> > One of the key protective strategies behind Mollison's 2 trust systems> (designed for him by a commercial banker) is that the charitable trust> (Permaulture Institute) owns all property and assets, whereas the Mc> Alistair Trading Trust undertakes the commercial activities (Tagari> Publications, Pc courss & consulting t)which could be vulnerable to attack,> litigation, bankruptcy etc, thus ensuring that if anything does go under,> the land can't be threatened.> > In the early '80's only a few years after setting up the trust system, one> of the trading enterprises under the Mc Alistair Trading Trust, Self> Reliance Seeds (Australia's first non-hybrid seed specialist), came under> attack from a US-based seed company under international copyright law during> the spate of large corporations taking over independent seed companies when> Plant Patenting came into being. Self Reliance seeds was wound up without> threatening the Tagari property and assets.> BTW A new seed company was soon formed independent of the trust structure> called Phoenix Seeds (symbolising the new rising from the ashes of the old).> > The moral of the story is to separate ownership of land from> enterprise-based activities.> > The shifting of profits from one entity to another is not so simple under> Australian trust law, Oz trust law is complex and constantly changing.> > Ciao> Robyn> > > > > ------------------------------> > Message: 11> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 14:40:20 -0800 (PST)> From: Sean Maley <semaley at yahoo.com>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Permaculture People's Party> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>> Message-ID: <27035.81717.qm at web52805.mail.re2.yahoo.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1> > Healing Hawk <healinghawk at earthlink.net> wrote:Electorally, 52% of eligible voters in the US don't even register to vote, and of those who do, around 50% actually vote. So right away, we see that less than 25% of eligible voters in the US actually elect the sitting government. Add in third parties and the percentage shrinks even more.> ==============> This is to say nothing about voting rights being stripped from a significant portion of the population:> > http://dunwalke.com> > It's a long story for online, but enlightening.> > Hierarchy isn't capable of permanently organizing this many people in a fair way. The grass roots network needs to be built up considerably more than we currently enjoy before pulling the plug safely. Only when enough of us control our own food, shelter and energy will the time be right to let the bankers, politicians, and business executives have their money, all of it.> > The real power is in those things that sustain us. Money only means something to us when we don't have the basic necessities of life and/or enough somebodies need money for the same reasons. Needing money indicates that the system in which we depend for life has become too complex. Type one error?> > > -Sean.> > > ---------------------------------> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.> > ------------------------------> > Message: 12> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 17:49:24 -0500> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflj at intrex.net>> Subject: [permaculture] [Fwd: Nonchemical Way to Control Mosquitoes]> To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>> Message-ID: <476AF174.6080600 at intrex.net>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed> > -------- Original Message --------> Subject: Nonchemical Way to Control Mosquitoes> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 09:37:57 -0500> From: ARS News Service <NewsService at ars.usda.gov>> Reply-To: ARS News Service <NewsService at ars.usda.gov>> To: ARS News subscriber <lflj at bellsouth.net>> > STORY LEAD:> New Nonchemical Approach to Curbing Mosquitoes> ___________________________________________> > ARS News Service> Agricultural Research Service, USDA> Sharon Durham, (301) 504-1611, sharon.durham at ars.usda.gov> December 20, 2007> --View this report online, plus photos and related stories, at www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr> ___________________________________________> > Most pesticides are toxic to insects and humans alike, but a molecular pesticide developed by Agricultural Research > Service (ARS) scientists may provide a new way to deal with mosquito pests without causing a risk to human health.> > The molecular pesticide technology would also overcome the mosquito's ability to develop resistance to particular > pesticides. A molecular pesticide has nucleic acid, such as DNA or RNA, as its active ingredient. The technology also > has potential to be used against other insect pests.> > The technology was developed by ARS entomologists Julia W. Pridgeon and James J. Becnel, in the ARS Mosquito and Fly > Research Unit, Center for Medical, Agricultural and Veterinary Entomology, Gainesville, Fla. Their technology prevents > mosquitoes from producing essential proteins necessary for their survival. Although other approaches to nonchemical pest > control are being pursued, this ARS invention has certain advantages.> > The molecular pesticide concept allows scientists to design each pesticide specifically for the targeted individual pest > species. It interrupts genes essential for insect survival, causing the insect to die. This recently discovered > technology maximizes safety and minimizes environmental impact on beneficial insects.> > In addition, molecular pesticides should be effective against pest species that are resistant to conventional chemical > pesticides. Chemical pesticides often have an impact on the physiological systems shared by humans, but this new method > only targets specific genes of the pest species. Molecular pesticides can also be easily administered--by contacting the > insect externally.> > This technology would also reduce the time and costs associated with obtaining regulatory approval of new products and > would also serve as a model system for developing novel insecticides. Successful development and transfer of molecular > pesticides could represent a quantum leap in developing new toxicants for pest control.> > A patent application for this technology has been submitted and ARS is seeking a cooperative research and development > partner to develop appropriate formulations that can be marketed and sold commercially. This research was partially > funded by the Deployed War-Fighter Protection Research Program funded from the U.S. Department of Defense.> > ARS is the U.S. Department of Agriculture's chief scientific research agency.> > ___________________________________________> > This is one of the news reports that ARS Information distributes to subscribers on weekdays. Send feedback and questions > to the ARS News Service at NewsService at ars.usda.gov.> > * You are subscribed to "ARS News" as lflj at bellsouth.net.> * To change the address, please notify the ARS News Service at NewsService at ars.usda.gov.> * To unsubscribe, send a blank email to leave-139273-39272K at ls.ars.usda.gov.> * Other ARS news products are available by e-mail. For details about them or to subscribe, please contact the ARS News > Service or visit http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/lists.htm.> __________________________________________> ARS News Service, Information Staff, Agricultural Research Service> 5601 Sunnyside Ave., Room 1-2251, Beltsville MD 20705-5128> NewsService at ars.usda.gov | www.ars.usda.gov/news> Phone (301) 504-1636 | fax (301) 504-1486> > > > > ------------------------------> > Message: 13> Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 17:55:29 -0600> From: "Healing Hawk" <healinghawk at earthlink.net>> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Permaculture People's Party> To: "'permaculture'" <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>> Message-ID: <58AE1CC383DB40CEA07AE949E65E58B4 at rastus>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"> > Indeed, there are Republican Party moves afoot in many states to> disenfranchise as many likely Democratic voters as possible before November,> 2008 when the Repugs expect to take a huge drubbing. > > Part of designing the PPP will have to be avoiding hierarchy, I think.> That's a mind stretcher, though, for a people deeply enmeshed in hierarchies> of some sort. It probably needs to be a stretch to come up with an> acceptable PPP.> > I suspect there is a lot we can influence before "pulling the plug." Perhaps> we need also to consider that the rigidly unsustainable people who remain> must also be accounted for in a sustainable system, for at least a> generation, until they all die off. They will mess up things if not> accounted for. > > Money is a very strange consideration.> > My opinion is that each individual needs to have the resources to say "no"> to anything to which they feel the need to say no. In a society that> controls the food and starves those who say "no," the human volitional> potential is disabled. This must stop, if humans are to be, as Lovelock> says it, the brain and nervous system of Gaia. We have a lot of> developmental work to do to get there. I think our politics should support> that work rather than judging us as inherently evil persons who must be> controlled to keep us from running amok. Power is the ability to change, I> think, and the first thing that needs to change is the damage that this> judgment of humans as inherently evil does to our self-esteem. > > In _Cracking the Code_, Thom Hartmann says that the political legitimation> of human dominion over other humans arises from Hobbes. Conservatives act> as if it comes directly from God, but it's not in _The Bible_. Besides> being God of the conservatives, Hobbes was King James II's tutor. As money> is a totally artificial human construction, the way it is given and withheld> is a purely political decision. It's the accepted political currency in the> present system and poverty is greater in the US than it's been since the New> Deal while per capita income has risen, although no one but the> socioeconomic top 2% benefited. I think it would be a type one error to> design a sustainable society that keeps money. Money makes oppression too> accessible.> > Thanks for a thoughtful response.> > Tommy Tolson> Austin, TX > > -----Original Message-----> From: permaculture-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org> [mailto:permaculture-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Sean Maley> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 4:40 PM> To: permaculture> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Permaculture People's Party> > Healing Hawk <healinghawk at earthlink.net> wrote:Electorally, 52% of eligible> voters in the US don't even register to vote, and of those who do, around> 50% actually vote. So right away, we see that less than 25% of eligible> voters in the US actually elect the sitting government. Add in third> parties and the percentage shrinks even more.> ==============> This is to say nothing about voting rights being stripped from a significant> portion of the population:> > http://dunwalke.com> > It's a long story for online, but enlightening.> > Hierarchy isn't capable of permanently organizing this many people in a> fair way. The grass roots network needs to be built up considerably more> than we currently enjoy before pulling the plug safely. Only when enough of> us control our own food, shelter and energy will the time be right to let> the bankers, politicians, and business executives have their money, all of> it.> > The real power is in those things that sustain us. Money only means> something to us when we don't have the basic necessities of life and/or> enough somebodies need money for the same reasons. Needing money indicates> that the system in which we depend for life has become too complex. Type> one error?> > > -Sean.> > > > ------------------------------> > _______________________________________________> permaculture mailing list> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture> > > End of permaculture Digest, Vol 59, Issue 24> ********************************************
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