[permaculture] Similarities between the Jesus Movementatitsorigin and the

Vital Scherrer vital233 at hotmail.com
Thu Dec 27 17:37:49 EST 2007


Dieter,

LIQ (laughing in quiet=relief)! I was afraid that I really upset you.
But anyway, a honest thank you for your reply of (almost) whatever nature it 
may be - as it is kind of frustrating not to get any feedback - as well as 
for any irony and humour, as the contents of the postings in this mailing 
list are unfortunately, due to the incomprehensible (amount of) "bullshit" 
some people create, too often very grave and "chilling".
And sorry, if I didn't express myself clear enough.

"Romantic notions of utopian societies where the lamb
   will sit alongside the lion are all very fine as far as they
   go, yet things never work out quite like that, do they?"

Sure, but that was not exactly what I was writing about. I just think that 
pemaculture as a "method of human SETTLEMENT" may not necessarily resolve 
all the problems we face today, nor may it be the ultimate, most nature 
friendly and most enjoyable way of life. Of course for now this may seem the 
way to go (meaning the settlement part).

Also, the true utopian society is what we have got now, if one thinks of it 
in the long-run (Utopia meaning an unrealistic ideal society that is 
impossible to realize), if its consequences are thought to the end: One that 
is based on an economy which depends on unlimited growth on a limited 
planet. But for the readers of this mailing list there is no need to say 
more.

"Don't you think that the founders of socialism didn't have
   the highest ideals and (at least in their opinion) the best
   way of achieving paradise on Earth? They certainly didn't
   intended it all to culminate in Stalin's Gulag or to end
   in the massive waste of state planned socialism."

I certainly hope so, at least its authors! But again, that was not what I 
refered to. I meant an improved and sophisticated "hunter and gatherer" 
lifestyle, which actually may be more of a (semi-?) nomadic "food-jungle 
caretaker and gatherer" culture.

"It is the prerogative of youth to live out an idealistic élan,
   yet reason is needed to keep it all from degenerating into
   chaos and destruction, of which there are too many
   examples in history for me to list here."

Now you are giving me rather little credit. - I hope you don't mind a more 
personal question: Are you by any chance a relative of a famous person of 
German history? Not that it would necessarily explain anything. This 
question just popped up somehow. Please excuse my curiosity.
Okay, let me call my intention by its name: What I was going on about was a 
stable and balanced way of life which is truly and genuinely based and 
rooted on natures principles. - This might fit better into the "permaculture 
and politics" thread. - Then again with a lifestyle that is based on natures 
principles, politics may be discarded, except for communal, local self 
governance. An ethnologist who knows about the commonalities of governance 
of tribes who are still living as nomadic hunters and gatherers, might be 
able to give some quiet interesting insights.

Or we might want to learn something from our closest relatives, the Bonobos, 
which "govern" their social conflicts with sex. Though the sex drive of our 
female population is probably too fluctuating for this to work. But it 
surely could mean a substantial enrichment, if we just could feel 
comfortable with it, this might be worth a shot or more :-).

"You want to give every unemployed a piece of land?
   Get real! I live in a region that used to be home to a great
   number of small farmers. There is hardly anybody left."

That's due mainly to the E.C. agriculture policy, which financially favours 
industrial-size farms.
If you would ask for example the expropriated American Indians or the 
Australian Aborigines, whether they would rather have a sufficient amount of 
arable land or the payments, I believe they would pick the land. Certainly a 
respective expert psychologist would tell you that the land will also give 
them back their dignity and self-reliance.

Also, would anybody have thought it would be possible to expropriate all the 
landowners of the communist countries. Such things can be implemented, if 
there is enough support or force backing it up.
When the time is right and the people are ready for it, and maybe most 
importantly, when they believe in it, believe that it can and must be 
changed, permaculture principles can become part of the legislations within 
days. I'm "afraid" that the more the earth gets devastated, the closer we 
get to this time. Let's just hope it won't be too late.

"...They all leave for the city as soon as they can get a buyer
   for their land, many even before that. The young certainly
   don't want to stay on the land. Much too hard to make a
   living..."

...A living with materialistic affluence. When they get unemployment 
payments, they certainly don't want to work on the land. - I know about two 
women who spent their state payments on alcohol until they died as a result 
of that abuse.

Besides that, if the farmers would organize themselves properly, they would 
be the rich guys, as they, by being at the very source of the base of life, 
have this advantage and untapped power potential, with which they could rule 
the world. Instead they let themselves order about by subordinating 
themselves to a subsidy-system, which apparently does a lot of harm to the 
poorest in the third world too. All I can say is: Farmers stick together, 
grow crops which will make you independent and tell the folks in the fancy 
suits and their sympathizers to eat their money or pay a fair price for the 
products! - Meaning a price based on time and energy input of the farmers, 
paid in equal relation to the time and energy input of the rich man's work.

To all of those who are still with us: Sorry that I took such a hike off the 
thread.

In neighbourly friendship too,

Vital


----Original Message Follows----
From: Dieter Brand <diebrand at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: [permaculture] Similarities between the Jesus 
Movementatitsorigin and the
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 04:00:34 -0800 (PST)

Vital,

   Points well taken.

   I said that "love thy ..." was a simple social precept
   (meaning: not complex like the European Constitution for
   example). I didn't say that is was easy to practice.

   Romantic notions of utopian societies where the lamb
   will sit alongside the lion are all very fine as far as they
   go, yet things never work out quite like that, do they?

   Don't you think that the founders of socialism didn't have
   the highest ideals and (at least in their opinion) the best
   way of achieving paradise on Earth? They certainly didn't
   intended it all to culminate in Stalin's Gulag or to end
   in the massive waste of state planned socialism.


   It is the prerogative of youth to live out an idealistic élan,
   yet reason is needed to keep it all from degenerating into
   chaos and destruction, of which there are too many
   examples in history for me to list here.

   You want to give every unemployed a piece of land?
   Get real! I live in a region that used to be home to a great
   number of small farmers. There is hardly anybody left.
   They all leave for the city as soon as they can get a buyer
   for their land, many even before that. The young certainly
   don't want to stay on the land. Much too hard to make a
   living. I can live here because I have a second job which
   allows me to survive even if there is a crop failure. And
   since I spent my live in the major capitals of this World,
   I do appreciate the remoteness and am willing to put up
   with innumerable inconveniences. But I don't blame others
   for seeking the comfort of the cities.

   I didn't intend to misrepresent your lines, anyway not
   more than necessary to get my point across ;-)  And
   I'm certainly not a hardliner of any description.

   Sorry if I can’t resist the urge to use a little irony here
   or there. I know I shouldn’t, since irony like humour
   doesn’t travel easily across national or cultural boundaries.

   In neighbourly love,

   Dieter


Vital Scherrer <vital233 at hotmail.com> wrote:
     Dieter,

I agree with you that love is more than a fleeting "emotion" - it's my
failure that I didn't mention its possibly most important motivating quality
- though obviously and unfortunately too often it is just that too. But then
again, aren't all feelings more than just something transitory and fleeting
as well?

I don't agree with you though that to "Love thy neighbour" is simple. It is
simple to command it, but a whole different story to do it. Would we have
social conflicts if it would be simple?

Of course I didn't mean "sharing" in a sense of a politically centralistic
dictator-socialism, which was forced upon people. Just like capitalism, it
only works with understanding, if people don't feel forced and if the
majority support it. Not to mention that people without a piece of land, are
basically forced to serve the industries and other employers. It's just so
subtle that obviously most people are not aware of this fact.

 >"To give everybody a piece of land to grow
 > their own food on, sounds like a gigantic waste that could
 > easily dwarf even the worst excesses of socialism and
 > capitalism combined. Most would not and could not grow
 > their own food."

Why could they not (learn to) grow their own food, with some help of a
suitable task force and plant material, instead of unemployment payments?
You are giving rather little credit to the unemployed. - It seems like you
are associating some rather awkward emotions with this topic.

...Nor did I mention any trampling 20th century tourists, which might, by
doing so, destroy the basis of life. In other words, I wrote about a kind of
transformation of the fertile lands into a food jungle - which is what
permaculturists do anyway, right? - where people could stroll, discover and
see more of this planet, whatever you would call it. The word "ravishing"
may not necessarily be a good choice.

But I admit this must sound a bit too far fetched - still - or like science
fiction, especially for settler- and planter hardliners.

I just hope you are the only one who misinterpreted my lines. If anybody
else didn't get the picture, I'll be glad to explain.

Vital


---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
_______________________________________________
permaculture mailing list
permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
Google command to search archives:
site:http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture searchstring

_________________________________________________________________
Die neue MSN Suche Toolbar mit Windows-Desktopsuche. Suchen Sie gleichzeitig 
im Web, Ihren E-Mails und auf Ihrem PC! Jetzt neu! http://desktop.msn.de/ 
Jetzt gratis downloaden!




More information about the permaculture mailing list