[permaculture] what is "politics" exactly...?/capitalism

rhonda.b at insightbb.com rhonda.b at insightbb.com
Mon Dec 10 17:54:21 EST 2007


Hi all, 

I put this out on my local guild list and was encouraged to put it out here . . . . It fits with the thread below and I'm also curious to see what responses it generates.

blessings,
Rhonda Baird
Bloomington, Indiana


rhonda.b at insightbb.com wrote:
> A corporation will swallow a 10% loss in revenue unhappily, but at 
> what point does it falter? 20%, 30%? 50%? At what point, would it make 
> a change? How fast could it happen? And with the increasing 
> instability in our systems, how swift might this change be? I suspect, 
> eventually, they will bring themselves down. For over a decade [I'm in my early 30's], I've 
> been railing against the corporations, and someone asked me ten years ago what I 
> would put in their place. Vibrant local economies. Trade, farming, 
> craftsmanship and artisans. I would like to see these things given 
> more of a chance to operate sustainably.  I don't know whether the 
> system will evolve fast enough or not, but that's where I would like 
> to put my energy. Others need to do different work and all of the work 
> is synergistic. Each of you, as part of the guild and the myriad of 
> choices you make each day, is a part of it. And it is happening. I 
> think we would all agree, though that a lot more needs to be done.
> Rhonda

----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Vlaun <scott at moosepondarts.com>
Date: Monday, December 10, 2007 16:38
Subject: Re: [permaculture] what is "politics" exactly...?
To: permaculture <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>

> Scott,
> 
> I really appreciate the thoughts below and your commitment 
> to  
> changing the system. As someone who has worked for Seeds of 
> Change  
> for many years promoting organic seeds, I often struggle with 
> issues  
> about capitalism that you bring up below, no matter how 
> important the  
> overall mission of the company.  Since you, and other 
> leading  
> permaculturists have also worked for SOC and its parent company 
> M&M  
> Mars on Permaculture and sustainable production projects, how do 
> you  
> see that as different than what Hawken, McDonough and others 
> have  
> done to reform industrial capitalist enterprises?
> 
> It seems like we need to be working on all fronts; to stem the 
> tide  
> and change the paradigm. Having that kind of capital to make 
> big  
> projects happen isn't perfect, but it can be useful.
> 
> 
> 
> Scott Vlaun
> Moose Pond Arts+Ecology
> Design Solutions for a Sustainable Future
> 
> 450 Main St. Studio 2
> Norway, Maine 04268
> 207-739-2409 Studio
> 207-890-4099 Cell
> http://www.moosepondarts.com
> 
> 
> 
> On Dec 7, 2007, at 2:09 PM, Scott Pittman wrote:
> 
> > This is a great thread and I want to add my two bits later but 
> for  
> > now I
> > would like to point out several of the people/books referenced 
> by  
> > Keith in
> > his list that I have trouble with.
> >
> > Amory Lovins, Paul Hawkins, William McDonough, and to some 
> extent the
> > Natural Step are all proponents of capitalism in a revised 
> form.   
> > They are
> > dangerous in my mind because they don't question the economic 
> order  
> > but
> > rather look to a reformed industrial state that will pollute 
> less  
> > or be more
> > energy conserving but don't question the very roots of the 
> system.   
> > In my
> > mind they are incredible dangerous because they allow people 
> to  
> > feel good
> > about the current arrangement so that they can continue 
> to  
> > participate.
> > It's like looking to biofuels to solve peak oil and then 
> not  
> > dealing with
> > our systems of transport and industrial processes.  To 
> have "good"  
> > guys like
> > Al Gore internationally flogging biofuels and florescent bulbs 
> as the
> > solution to Global Warming creates warm feelings of false 
> security,  
> > and set
> > us back enormously.
> >
> > Paul Hawkin and a past hero of mine Lester Brown (founder 
> of  
> > Worldwatch
> > Institute) are both now looking to bio-technology (I read gmo 
> food)  
> > as a
> > solution to some of our problems.
> >
> > William McDonough excites everyone because of his Ford 
> plant  
> > makeover that
> > is solar oriented and lessens the waste stream.  I'm 
> not  
> > overwhelmed with
> > this accomplishment when the men and women on the assembly 
> lines in  
> > these
> > architectural wonders are still doing the same mindless and 
> soul  
> > eroding
> > jobs.
> >
> > As I have mentioned before on this list I think there are a 
> limits  
> > to growth
> > in industry just as there are in nature and that once you 
> exceed those
> > limits you lose sustainability.  It a tree branches one 
> too many  
> > times it
> > starves the last addition because of viscosity.  Our 
> industrial  
> > machine
> > overcomes this by adding more energy (fuel) with the 
> predictable  
> > outcome of
> > pollution, lack of care of people and depletion of 
> resources.  It  
> > is built
> > into the system.
> >
> > Capitalism by its very nature cannot be "Green".
> >
> > I would much rather see Ivan Illich on this list!
> >
> > Scott Pittman
> > Director
> > Permaculture Institute
> > www.permaculture.org
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Keith Johnson [mailto:keithdj at mindspring.com]
> > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 10:48 AM
> > To: permaculture
> > Subject: Re: [permaculture] what is "politics" exactly...?
> >
> > Stimulated by Paul Cereghino's assertion (or recommendation) that
> >
> >     Permaculture design (even as applied 
> to politics) should focus on
> > analysis of actual processes and phenomena, flows, source, 
> sink,  
> > etc...
> >
> >
> > I Googled Ecology of  Politics and Political Ecology to 
> see what  
> > was out
> > there that might correspond with Permacultural perspectives 
> and found,
> > not surprisingly,  an interconnected web of familiar 
> thoughts, people,
> > books, theory and practice including:
> >
> >     Social Ecology: In response to the 
> social and ecological crisis in
> >     which we find ourselves immersed, 
> social ecology advocates a
> >     reconstructive approach that promotes 
> a directly democratic,
> >     confederal politics. As a body of 
> ideas, social ecology  
> > envisions *a
> >     moral economy that moves beyond 
> scarcity and hierarchy toward a
> >     world that fully celebrates diversity*.
> >
> >         Social ecology 
> is, in the words of its leading exponents, "a
> >         coherent 
> profound critique of current social, political, and
> >         anti-
> ecological trends" as well as "a *reconstructive,
> >         ecological, 
> communitarian, and ethical approach to society*".
> >
> >         What literally 
> defines social ecology as "social" is its
> >         recognition of 
> the often overlooked fact that *nearly all our
> >         present 
> ecological problems arise from deep-seated social
> >         problems*. 
> Conversely, present ecological problems cannot be
> >         clearly 
> understood, much less resolved, without resolutely
> >         dealing with 
> problems within society. To make this point more
> >         concrete: 
> *economic, ethnic, cultural, and gender conflicts,
> >         among many 
> others, lie at the core of the most serious
> >         ecological 
> dislocations we face today*--apart, to be sure,  
> > from
> >         those that are 
> produced by natural catastrophes.
> >
> >     Ivan Illich (who distinguishes between 
> /environment as commons / 
> > from
> >     the /environment as resource)
> >
> >     /Political ecology (which Wikipedia 
> defines as) the study of how
> >     political, economic, and social 
> factors affect environmental  
> > issues.
> >     The majority of studies analyze the 
> influence that society, state,
> >     corporate, and transnational powers 
> have on environmental problems
> >     and influencing environmental policy. 
> There are many approaches to
> >     these issues, and some scholars give 
> weight to the role that  
> > access
> >     to natural resources plays in 
> structuring political and economic
> >     life: particularly how land 
> degradation, 'fortress'-style wildlife
> >     conservation, or deforestation 
> influences a range of social
> >     relations and politics.
> >
> >     A number of books (for which I have 
> created a new category at
> >     Permaculture Trading Post called Eco-
> Politics>     
> <http://astore.amazon.com/pctradingpost-20?% 
> > 5Fencoding=UTF8&node=32>
> >     and invite you to suggest other titles 
> to add)
> >
> >     Deep Ecology
> >
> >     Noam Chomsky
> >
> >     Dave Foreman (Earth First)
> >
> >     Peter Kropotkin
> >
> >     Eco-socialism
> >
> >     Inclusive Democracy
> >
> >     Green syndicalism
> >
> >     Ecofeminism
> >
> >     Gaia philosophy
> >
> >     Greens
> >
> >     Anarcho-primitivism
> >
> >     Bioregionalism
> >
> > <http://astore.amazon.com/pctradingpost-20/detail/ 
> > 0520236289/105-6154186-766
> > 5265>
> >
> >     Ecopsychology (what Mollison was 
> teaching when he met David
> >     Holmgren, I've been told).
> >
> >     Thomas Berry
> >
> >     Appropriate technology
> >
> >     Joanna Macy
> >
> >     Anti-Globalization
> >
> >     Amory Lovins
> >
> >     William McDonough
> >
> > <http://astore.amazon.com/pctradingpost-20/detail/ 
> > 0865475873/105-6154186-766
> > 5265>
> >
> >     Paul Hawken and Natural Capitalism
> >
> > <http://astore.amazon.com/pctradingpost-20/detail/ 
> > 0316353000/105-6154186-766
> > 5265>
> >
> >     The Natural Step
> >
> >     Derrick Jensen
> >     
> <http://astore.amazon.com/pctradingpost-20?% 
> > 5Fencoding=UTF8&node=29>
> >
> >     Jarred Diamond
> >
> >     Vandana Shiva
> >
> >     Arundhati Roy
> >
> >     E.O. Wilson
> >
> >     ...and much more. If Permaculture 
> represents "the connecting
> >     science", these provide many 
> opportunities to connect the dots and
> >     build bridges between our local 
> cultures and the living planet.
> >
> > Paul Cereghino wrote:
> >>> Permaculture design (even as applied to politics) should 
> focus on
> >>> analysis of actual processes and phenomena.  Flows, 
> source, sink,
> >>> etc...  If natural systems are are the source of 
> inspiration for
> >>> ecological design, what is the source of inspiration for political
> > design.
> >>>
> >>> More critically... what is the effective transitional system from
> >>> current state to target state (least work greatest effect).
> >>>
> > -- 
> > Keith Johnson
> > "Be fruitful and mulch apply."
> > Permaculture Activist Magazine
> > PO Box 5516, Bloomington, IN 47407
> > (812) 335-0383
> > http://www.permacultureactivist.net
> > http://www.PermacultureTradingPost.com
> > Switch to Solar Power the Easy Way
> > http://www.jointhesolution.com/KeithJ-SunPower
> > http://www.PowUr.com/KeithJ-SunPower
> > Blog: http://kjpermaculture.blogspot.com/
> > also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting
> > http://www.permacultureactivist.net/design/Designconsult.html
> > also Association for Regenerative Culture
> > http://www.ARCulture.org
> > also APPLE-Bloomington (Alliance for a Post-Petroleum 
> Local  
> > Economy) It's a
> > small world after oil.
> > http://www.relocalize.net/groups/applebloomington
> > also Bloomington Permaculture Guild
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture mailing list
> > permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subscribe or unsubscribe here:
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> >
> >
> >
> 
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