[permaculture] composting question

Rob Kelly marshall_mush at yahoo.com
Mon Dec 25 23:04:23 EST 2006


Hello to all,

Thank you for your knowledge and willingness to
share it.  I always receive such valuable advice
from this group.  As someone new and getting
turned onto much of this stuff fairly recently, I
find this forum to be a very valuable resource.

I work with a small, local, organic farm and CSA
in Connecticut and we have recently begun a
composting operation that feels big.  Throughout
autumn we accepted enough leaves to make 4
windrows, each (before settling) perhaps 6 feet
high, 6' wide and 120' long.  We also accepted
and turned in horse manure and some chicken
manure, along with stable dressings from a few
local farms.  They are cooking nicely so far. 

Now for the questions:

1) We are concerned the product will be too
acidic, because it is heavily leaves.  Any
suggested permaculture approaches to increasing
pH?

2) Anyone familiar with composing with mushrooms
on a large scale.  I thought I heard it yielded a
more attractive and balanced product, but don't
have any idea of the cost or process. 

3) And of course, any other creative insight you
might have...always welcome.



Cheers,

Rob

--- permaculture-request at lists.ibiblio.org wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. for ALL! (lynnann)
>    2. Re: trademark - was Food Not Lawns book-
> (Robyn Francis)
>    3. Re: edited draft of Mother Earth News
> request (Keith Johnson)
>    4. Re: for ALL! (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
>    5. Re: trademark - was Food Not Lawns book-
> (Lawrence F. London, Jr.)
>    6. Re: for ALL! (Bruce Zell)
>    7. Jean Pain and Com-Post-Modernism (Keith
> Johnson)
>    8. Re: Food Not Lawns book (+ Thesis File)
> Found,	sort of
>       (sustain_ability at 123mail.org)
> 
> 
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 19:07:56 -0600
> From: "lynnann" <lynnann at newnorth.net>
> Subject: [permaculture] for ALL!
> To: <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
> <003501c727c1$1d2a6ec0$6400a8c0 at lynnanne550f45>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Regardless of what this time of the year means
> to you....I wish all the magic energy possible
> to all of you....love and peace..lynnann (in
> the wondrous snowy northwoods of Wisconsin)
> ps...still harvesting greenpeppers, tomatoes,
> cauliflower and herbs in my "greenroom"
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 12:22:29 +1100
> From: Robyn Francis <erda at nor.com.au>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] trademark - was
> Food Not Lawns book-
> To: permaculture
> <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <C1B57305.21FF%erda at nor.com.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="US-ASCII"
> 
> 
> On 25/12/06 10:56 AM, "Lawrence F. London, Jr."
> <lfl at intrex.net> wrote:
> 
> > Permaculture as a movement and as an umbrella
> discipline, offering much to the
> > world, is extremely important and should
> > not be subject to restrictions of this
> nature.
> > 
> > What's the final word on trademark
> restrictions on use of the word
> > permaculture, if any?
> 
> There was an attempt to trademark the word in
> Australia many years ago and
> it failed as the word is deemed to be firmly in
> the public domain.
> 
> Also Bill's claim that the word permaculture
> was copyright has since been
> legally refuted as individual words cannot be
> copyrighted. (a specific
> rebdition of them e.g. As a logo can be
> tradmarked)
> 
> Naturally normal copyright laws apply to
> published works, but not to the
> word permaculture.
> 
> BTW the permaculture institutes snake/tree logo
> IS trademarked and
> permission should be sought from the institute
> for use
> 
> Ciao
> Robyn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 20:36:38 -0500
> From: Keith Johnson <keithdj at mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] edited draft of
> Mother Earth News request
> To: permaculture
> <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <458F2B26.1010101 at mindspring.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
> format=flowed
> 
> John,
> Were you ever a lawyer? You don't have to
> answer. You could plead the 
> fifth amendment (while it lasts). ;-)
> Keith
> 
> John Fritz wrote:
> > The following is my first draft of a petition
> to The Mother Earth News (MEN) for and update
> to their March/April 1980 story about the
> methods of Jean Pain, in his use of forest
> thicket compost.  I had considered using
> petitions online to compile the signatures but
> thought that this could be construed as an
> adversarial approach to garnering MEN's help. 
> For now I think that I will just submit the
> following to the permaculture list,  set a
> reasonable time limit for response to me, and
> then printout the responses and mail them to
> MEN.  Please do not sign the following petition
> at this time.  I am just looking for input at
> this time.  When we have a final draft I will
> re-submit it as "Final Draft of Mother Earth
> News Petition" and then begin collecting email
> signatures.  Thanks for any ideas you may have.
>  
> >    
> >   John Fritz, NW Arkansas   
> >            
> >      Request to The Mother Earth News for An
> Update onThe Methods of Jean Pain
> >    
> >     Widespread knowledge of Jean Pain's
> forest thicket composting methods would 
> >     help advance rural economies, support the
> healing of our forests and increase the
> >     productivity of our gardens.
> >    
> >     His ideas could empower rural
> self-reliance by providing inexpensive heating
> for our 
> >     homes, water, and cooking while enhancing
> habitat for wildlife.
> >    
> >     We  encourage The Mother Earth News to
> publish an update to it's March/April 1980
> story 
> >     about the methods of Jean Pain especially
> his methods for easy replication and it's 
> >     implications in regard to dwindling
> natural gas supplies.
> >   
> -- 
> Keith Johnson
> "Be fruitful and mulch apply."
> Permaculture Activist Magazine
> PO Box 5516, Bloomington, IN 47408
> (812) 335-0383
> http://www.permacultureactivist.net
> also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting
> also Association for Regenerative Culture
> also APPLE-Bloomington (Alliance for a
> Post-Petroleum Local Economy) It's a small
> world after oil.
>
http://www.relocalize.net/groups/applebloomington
> also Bloomington Permaculture Guild
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 22:41:56 -0500
> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr."
> <lfl at intrex.net>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] for ALL!
> To: permaculture
> <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <458F4884.9090201 at intrex.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii;
> format=flowed
> 
> lynnann wrote:
> > Regardless of what this time of the year
> means to you....I wish all the magic energy
> possible to all of you....love and
> peace..lynnann (in the wondrous snowy
> northwoods of Wisconsin)
> > ps...still harvesting greenpeppers, tomatoes,
> cauliflower and herbs in my "greenroom"
> 
> Merry Traditional American-Scandinavian
> Christmas to you! I'll be celebrating a
> Traditional Southern American
> one myself with my 4 cats: Mr. Einstein,
> Leonardo, Himaloonian and Mr. Nemo.
> 
> I hope you get to hear some Hardanger fiddle
> this season. Enjoy those homegrown GH
> vegetables.
> 
> LL
> -- 
> Lawrence F. London, Jr.
> Venaura Farm
> lfl at intrex.net
> http://market-farming.com
> http://market-farming.com/venaurafarm
> http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
> http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 22:49:29 -0500
> From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr."
> <lfl at intrex.net>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] trademark - was
> Food Not Lawns book-
> To: permaculture
> <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <458F4A49.1010706 at intrex.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii;
> format=flowed
> 
> Robyn Francis wrote:
> 
> > On 25/12/06 10:56 AM, "Lawrence F. London,
> Jr." <lfl at intrex.net> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >>Permaculture as a movement and as an umbrella
> discipline, offering much to the
> >>world, is extremely important and should
> >>not be subject to restrictions of this
> nature.
> >>
> >>What's the final word on trademark
> restrictions on use of the word
> >>permaculture, if any?
> > 
> > 
> > There was an attempt to trademark the word in
> Australia many years ago and
> > it failed as the word is deemed to be firmly
> in the public domain.
> > 
> > Also Bill's claim that the word permaculture
> was copyright has since been
> > legally refuted as individual words cannot be
> copyrighted. (a specific
> > rebdition of them e.g. As a logo can be
> tradmarked)
> > 
> > Naturally normal copyright laws apply to
> published works, but not to the
> > word permaculture.
> > 
> > BTW the permaculture institutes snake/tree
> logo IS trademarked and
> > permission should be sought from the
> institute for use
> 
> Thanks. Good, that is settled once and for all.
> Now, on to the "grumpy old permies" bidness.
> Who are these folks, permatrolls under the
> bridge fighting the raging tarn?
> If someone wants to write a book about natural,
> biological gardening they should include
> a lot about how it fits into a permaculture
> system that also can be implemented on one's
> property.
> Not to do so is wasting a valuable opportunity.
> I would like to hear Heather's thoughts on
> this.
> 
> LL
> -- 
> Lawrence F. London, Jr.
> Venaura Farm
> lfl at intrex.net
> http://market-farming.com
> http://market-farming.com/venaurafarm
> http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
> http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 14:00:46 +1000
> From: "Bruce Zell"
> <bruce at permaculturenq.com.au>
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] for ALL!
> To: "'permaculture'"
> <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
>
<20061225040010.3ED31F861 at fep01.mfe.bur.connect.com.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
> 
> 
> lynnann wrote:
> > Regardless of what this time of the year
> means to you....I wish all the
> magic energy possible to all of you....love and
> peace..lynnann (in the
> wondrous snowy northwoods of Wisconsin)
> > ps...still harvesting greenpeppers, tomatoes,
> cauliflower and herbs in my
> "greenroom"
> 
> Tropical Northern Australian Merry Christmas to
> all of you. We are
> celebration a traditional North Queensland Xmas
> in the shade and by and in
> the water. There is youth about this tradition
> with a big range of exotic
> tropical fruits that have been introduced in
> the last 40 years bearing now.
> Weater Report
>  CAIRNS
> Fine. Light to moderate SE to NE winds. 
> High fire danger. 
> MAX    32 
> UV INDEX - 15 [Extreme]
> No chance of a white Xmas here
> Cheers Bruce
> 
> Merry Traditional American-Scandinavian
> Christmas to you! I'll be
> celebrating a Traditional Southern American
> one myself with my 4 cats: Mr. Einstein,
> Leonardo, Himaloonian and Mr. Nemo.
> 
> I hope you get to hear some Hardanger fiddle
> this season. Enjoy those
> homegrown GH vegetables.
> 
> LL
> -- 
> Lawrence F. London, Jr.
> Venaura Farm
> lfl at intrex.net
> http://market-farming.com
> http://market-farming.com/venaurafarm
> http://venaurafarm.blogspot.com/
> http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech
> 
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 23:58:02 -0500
> From: Keith Johnson <keithdj at mindspring.com>
> Subject: [permaculture] Jean Pain and
> Com-Post-Modernism
> To: Permaculture ibiblio
> <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>,
> 	openpermaculture
> <permaculture at openpermaculture.org>,	BPG
> 
> <bloomingtonpermacultureguild at lists.riseup.net>
> Message-ID: <458F5A5A.7010205 at mindspring.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
> format=flowed
> 
> Another Kind of Energy
> by Peter Bane
> 
> Copyright Nov. 2000, Permaculture Activist
> magazine.
> 
> PERMACULTURE HAS ITS GENESIS in the visionary
> work of J.    Russell 
> Smith, J. Sholto Douglas, Robert Hart, and
> others less well known, who, 
> two generations ago and more, realized the
> urgency of transforming the 
> basis of agricul?ture through the use of trees
> and other perennial 
> crops. They saw the progressive devastation of
> land that followed the 
> plow and knew that only by integrating forestry
> and farming could man's 
> impact on the Earth be tempered and hope for
> humanity's future be 
> secured into the next century. Following the
> revelations of ecologist H. 
> T. Odum (I) on the problem of energy, a third
> leg was added to this 
> vital synthesis as David Holmgren so
> tren?chantly expounds in his essay 
> "Energy and Permaculture" (2). It was for
> Holmgren, a young student of 
> design at Hobart. Tasma?nia, and his unlikely
> mentor, Bill Mollison a 
> bushman turned university professor, to set
> forth a systematic and 
> practical approach to implementing these new
> understandings. 
> Permaculture emphasized redesign of the
> domestic landscape or 
> self---reliance, building the genius of the
> local and the individual 
> into this triune and revolutionary shift.
> Though widely accepted by both traditional and
> post-modern peoples 
> around the world, permaculture has been largely
> ignored by governments 
> and institutions, to which its essential
> message is anathema. The vacuum 
> of official support has obscured the scope and
> extent of this revolution 
> in man's relation to the land. It is important
> therefore, for those of 
> us promoting permaculture concepts and systems
> to realize that the 
> elaboration of the permaculture design system,
> though original to 
> Holmgren and Mollison, was neither isolated nor
> unique, but contemporary 
> with a range of parallel creative work in other
> western countries.
> Rummaging my bookshelf for inspiration on
> energy in preparation for this 
> issue, I came across evidence for a similar
> ideation in a slender thesis 
> by Ida and Jean Pain, Another Kind of Garden.
> First published in 1973 
> and in a fifth edition by 1979, this little
> book documents the work and 
> methods of M. Pain with brushwood compost.
> 
> A Little-Known Visionary
> 
> Pain was a citizen scientist in Occitania, that
> fabled and historic 
> region in the south of France, whose political
> fate has long been 
> submerged within the French state, but whose
> spirit is still restive. 
> Contemporary with Bill Mollison. Pain was
> concerned with the devastation 
> of the Mediterranean forest by fire, a terminal
> process of 
> dehumification of soils that began thousands of
> years ago with the 
> introduction of grazing animals and cereal
> cropping. He experimented 
> with the production of compost from brushwood
> thinnings of the 
> /garrigue, /France's sclerophyllic (dry loving)
> southern forest. By 
> progressive applications of this compost and
> careful mulching to retain 
> moisture, Pain demonstrated and recorded in
> great detail that high 
> quality vegetables could be grown without
> irrigation in these dry soils. 
> He further speculated that the forest itself
> could he regenerated by 
> selective use of the same material.
> 
> What sets Jean Pain apart from Sir Albert
> Howard or other advocates of 
> compost for gardening are two important
> elements, First. Pain placed the 
> source of humic material in the forest and not
> in agriculture. In this 
> way Pain pointed to a way of making productive
> the vast scrubland and 
> dry forest regions of the sub-temperate and
> sub-tropic regions, areas of 
> the planet blessed by abundant sunshine and
> long occupied by humans, but 
> whose soils were exhausted before the modern
> age. Second, motivated by a 
> profoundly post-modern understanding of global
> resource limits, he 
> concerned himself with the production of
> industrially useful energy from 
> this basic earth resource. In this way he
> offers a bridge between 
> traditional livelihoods based in shifting
> cultiva?tion or nomadic 
> herding, and a more modern, prosperous, and
> settled way of life. He also 
> shows westerners a way out of the dilemma of
> dependence on fossil fuels.
> 
> Why then have we not a better knowledge of this
> important man and his 
> work? The answers are several and should
> surprise us little. Jean Pain 
> worked independently in a rural region. He was
> affiliated with no 
> university or government. Though French is a
> world language, it is no 
> longer the leading tongue of science and has
> been eclipsed by English as 
> the lingua franca of cultural innovation.
> Pain's small, didactic volume 
> was self-published, and its translation into
> English was awkward, the 
> text difficult to read. Though Pain networked
> with other researchers in 
> francophone Europe and in California, the
> extent of his outreach appears 
> to have been limited. He was essentially an
> agronomic scientist and 
> inventor, without the personality which might
> have enabled him to 
> publicize and propagate his ideas. And, more
> broadly, his creative work, 
> like so much innovation in energy technology,
> was marginalized by the 
> worldwide conservative reaction of the l980's
> which sought to deny the 
> implica?tions of the oil shocks of the previous
> decade.
> 
> Let's look at Jean Pain's methods and try to
> assess what sort of legacy 
> he has left us as we enter the 21st century.
> 
> The rest of the story:
>
http://www.permacultureactivist.net/PeterBane/Jean_Pain.html
> 
> Merry Christmas from Keith Johnson and Peter
> Bane
> 
> -- 
> Keith Johnson
> "Be fruitful and mulch apply."
> Permaculture Activist Magazine
> PO Box 5516, Bloomington, IN 47408
> (812) 335-0383
> http://www.permacultureactivist.net
> also Patterns for Abundance Design & Consulting
> also Association for Regenerative Culture
> also APPLE-Bloomington (Alliance for a
> Post-Petroleum Local Economy) It's a small
> world after oil.
>
http://www.relocalize.net/groups/applebloomington
> also Bloomington Permaculture Guild
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 04:45:23 -0500
> From: sustain_ability at 123mail.org
> Subject: Re: [permaculture] Food Not Lawns book
> (+ Thesis File) Found,
> 	sort of
> To: "permaculture"
> <permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID:
>
<1167039923.30017.281938351 at webmail.messagingengine.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> 
> Hello, 
> Thanks, again, to those who helped me find the
> thesis 
> ""Edible Ecosystems In Sustainable Agriculture"
> a survey of Permaculture
> in Britain Graeme Sheriff". 
> The URL has expired. The thesis is rather old,
> but I will keep a copy.
> Merry Christmas!
> George
> http://transitions.stumbleupon.com
> 
> On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 16:47:24 -0500,
> sustain_ability at 123mail.org said:
> > Heather,
> >  
> > I am trying to provide a free service myself
> on the 
> > http://transitions.blogspot.com site. But
> there is a difference between
> > free and non-profit. Wealth creation as
> exemplified by the post-WWII
> > Cold War era of Big Oil is still the dominant
> paradigm; I have dedicated
> > myself to struggling with this incredibly
> destructive, murderous, zero
> > sum game materialism. 
> > 
> > Your approach can easily be misconstrued in
> many places as too radical.
> > The best definition of permaculture I have
> seen recently is found in a
> > 45 page thesis that I downloaded but can't
> find the original URL. If you
> > have the time, I can send you the acrobat
> file. 
> > 
> > And to all list members: I am glad we share
> our thoughts and actions and
> > I pray we will continue to do so. 
> > 
> > George
> > PS: I am also trying to track down the author
> of the above mentioned
> > thesis.
> > 
> 
> -- 
> http://www.fastmail.fm - A no graphics, no
> pop-ups email service
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture mailing list
> permaculture at lists.ibiblio.org
>
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/permaculture
> 
> 
> End of permaculture Digest, Vol 47, Issue 45
> ********************************************
> 




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