[pbs] pbs Digest, Vol 62, Issue 24
Adam Fikso
adam14113 at ameritech.net
Tue Mar 18 18:33:25 EDT 2008
----- Original Message -----
From: <pbs-request at lists.ibiblio.org>
To: <pbs at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 4:48 PM
Subject: pbs Digest, Vol 62, Issue 24
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Gladiolus books (Diane Whitehead)
> 2. Re : Gladiolus books (lucgbulot at aol.com)
> 3. Wiki Additions-Narcissus and Whiteheadia, Colored Logo
> (Mary Sue Ittner)
> 4. Re: Gladiolus books (Dell Sherk)
> 5. Re: Wiki Additions-Narcissus and Whiteheadia, Colored Logo
> (Diane Whitehead)
> 6. Re: Eranthis hyemails 'Guinea Gold' (totototo at telus.net)
> 7. Re: Eranthis hyemails 'Guinea Gold' (Jim McKenney)
> 8. Re: Eranthis hyemalis Tubergenii Group 'Guinea Gold'
> (David Victor)
> 9. Merendera sobolifera (Jim McKenney)
> 10. Re: Eranthis hyemails 'Guinea Gold' (Paul T.)
> 11. Re: Eranthis hyemalis Tubergenii Group 'Guinea Gold'
> (Jim McKenney)
> 12. Re: Eranthis hyemalis Tubergenii Group 'Guinea Gold'
> (Jim McKenney)
> 13. Re: Eranthis hyemalis Tubergenii Group 'Guinea Gold' (Paul T.)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:23:15 -0700
> From: Diane Whitehead <voltaire at islandnet.com>
> Subject: Re: [pbs] Gladiolus books
> To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <4830438C-427A-4300-9FF3-3D0E73E42D11 at islandnet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> Powells in Portland Oregon has 1 copy left of Gladiolus in Tropical
> Africa for $17.95
>
> http://www.powells.com/biblio/1-9780881923339-2
>
>
> Diane
>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:49:30 -0400
> From: lucgbulot at aol.com
> Subject: [pbs] Re : Gladiolus books
> To: pbs at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <8CA57378D7AE3EA-148C-3D9 at WEBMAIL-MB05.sysops.aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi Dell,
>
> I just had a look at abebooks.com... 30 copies (new and second hand) are
> avalaible from various book sellers - price ranging from $ 12 to 45...
> Even out of print (I believe), this book is easy to find...
>
> Luc
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:11:19 -0700
> From: Mary Sue Ittner <msittner at mcn.org>
> Subject: [pbs] Wiki Additions-Narcissus and Whiteheadia, Colored Logo
> To: pbs at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20080318104538.015d9c58 at mail.mcn.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> New Narcissus from Jay Yourch:
> 'Toby the First' and a group picture of 'Wisley'
> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/NarcissusDivisionSix
> 'Puppet'
> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/NarcissusDivisionFive#Puppet
> 'Trepolo'
> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/NarcissusDivisionEleven#Trepolo
> 'Mount Hood'
> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/NarcissusDivisionOne#Mount
> group shot of 'Chromacolor'
> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/NarcissusDivisionTwo#Chromacolor
> 'Pappy George' and 'Sweetness'
> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/NarcissusDivisionSeven
> 'Toto'
> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/MiniatureNarcissus#Toto
>
> Additional pictures of Whiteheadia growing in the rocks in Namaqualand,
> September 2006. We weren't traveling with Diane and Don, but we were there
> at the same time and don't know if the plants we found in the rocks were
> the same plants they found in the same rocks. These were the only ones we
> saw in our three days in Namaqualand and maybe the found the same ones.
> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Whiteheadia
>
> Also Jennifer Hildebrand has added color to the wiki logo. If you can't
> see
> this, you may need to refresh or reload the page. I have found in Mozilla
> Firefox that can have fleeting results with the new image replaced with
> the
> old image at a later date. It seems to be tenacious about holding on to
> the
> past. Thanks Jen for this attractive improvement.
>
> Mary Sue
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 14:34:15 -0400
> From: "Dell Sherk" <dells at voicenet.com>
> Subject: Re: [pbs] Gladiolus books
> To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" <pbs at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <20080318183505.714094C011 at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Thanks, Diane, for the tip. It looks like some inconsiderate person has
> snatched it up already. :<0
>
> Dell
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pbs-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:pbs-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org]
> On Behalf Of Diane Whitehead
> Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 1:23 PM
> To: Pacific Bulb Society
> Subject: Re: [pbs] Gladiolus books
>
> Powells in Portland Oregon has 1 copy left of Gladiolus in Tropical
> Africa for $17.95
>
> http://www.powells.com/biblio/1-9780881923339-2
>
>
> Diane
>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> pbs mailing list
> pbs at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/pbs
> http://pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:43:35 -0700
> From: Diane Whitehead <voltaire at islandnet.com>
> Subject: Re: [pbs] Wiki Additions-Narcissus and Whiteheadia, Colored
> Logo
> To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <8B04BF09-33C5-4A46-8D90-6DC80D23B414 at islandnet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> I got "tuned in" to Whiteheadia, so I found it in quite a few places.
> No exciting variants, though.
>
> Diane Whitehead
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 12:12:18 -0700
> From: totototo at telus.net
> Subject: Re: [pbs] Eranthis hyemails 'Guinea Gold'
> To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <20080318191129.81NJVBHCQB at priv-edmwaa05.telusplanet.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On 18 Mar 08, at 11:59, Jim McKenney wrote:
>
>> There are those who regard nomenclatural matters as mattes of right
>> and wrong: in their view, there is only one right way to do things. I
>> don?t look at it that way at all.
>
> Oh, come now, what's a little bolshevism between friends?
>
>> I?ve been thinking a lot about winter aconites lately, and these
>> seemingly simple little flowers offer some examples of just how
>> opinion comes to influence nomenclature.
>>
>> In the heading for this post I?ve deliberately used the provocative,
>> benignly provocative I hope, combination Eranthis hyemalis ?Guinea
>> Gold?.
>>
>> Those of you who know your winter aconites know that ?Guinea Gold? was
>> raised in the early twentieth century and presented to the gardening
>> public as a hybrid between what were then known as Eranthis hyemalis
>> and E. cilicica. I believe it was Bowles who coined the name
>> tubergenii for the hybrid group. Until recently, the usual citation of
>> the name would have been Eranthis x tubergenii ?Guinea Gold?.
>
> Janis Ruksans, in his book "Buried Treasure", mentions this plant as
> one he's received from many sources and doesn't think he's ever
> gotten the "real thing." I have a patch labelled "Eranthis ?
> tubergenii" that originated at Gothenberg and, afaik, doesn't pretend
> to be 'Guinea Gold'. Its flowers are rather small, but a deep
> saturated yellow, with darkish foliage, just as Ruksans describes.
>
> Since both specific names are validly published, names for this plant
> are valid whether they presume one species or two.
>
>
>> Some modern botanists regard Eranthis hyemalis and E. cilicica as
>> conspecific. In that view, ?Guinea Gold? is not a hybrid ? at any
>> rate, not an interspecific hybrid. That allows it to be cited as
>> Eranthis hyemalis ?Guinea Gold?: both parents of this cultivar are of
>> the species Eranthis hyemalis.
>>
>> There is another formula one encounters: Eranthis hyemalis Tubergenii
>> Group ?Guinea Gold?. I?m not sure what to make of this combination: I
>> assume it is tacit recognition of the existence of more than one
>> ?Guinea Gold?. In this view, if I?ve got it right, although the
>> original ?Guinea Gold? was a clone, this combination of names
>> recognizes that not only does more than one plant now go around under
>> the name ?Guinea Gold?, but also that the true, original plant is
>> seemingly lost in the crowd.
>
> What that fancy names means is "a particular clone called Guinea
> Gold, which is a one of a flock of similar looking plants, the
> Tubergenii Group, that can be distinguished from run of the mill
> Eranthis hyemalis. Got it?
>
>
>> Some people throw up their hands in the face of such complexities. I
>> relish them as a way of attaining more finely nuanced expressions of
>> the relationships involved. Is one right and the others wrong? I
>> don?t think so. Like everything else in science, the scientific basis
>> of nomenclature is an if?then proposition. If you believe that
>> Eranthis hyemalis and E. cilicica are discrete species, you write
>> Eranthis x tubergenii ?Guinea Gold?.
>>
>> If you believe E. hyemails and E. cilicica are conspecific, you write
>> Eranthis hyemalis ?Guinea Gold?.
>>
>> If you believe the plants going around under the name ?Guinea Gold?
>> cannot with certainty be attributed to the original clone, then you
>> write Eranthis Tubergenii Group ?Guinea Gold? or even Eranthis
>> hyemalis Tubergenii Group ?Guinea Gold?.
>
> Or Eranthis ? tubergenii.
>
>> But is one of these right and the others wrong? Get out the boxing
>> gloves!
>
> They're all correct. Remember that taxonomy is largely a science of
> opinion, not hard facts, so the only measure of validity is whether
> the publication of a name met the technical rules such as Latin
> description, etc.
>
> My best guess is that the cross has been made more than once and the
> original 'Guinea Gold' is long lost track of in a crowd of
> lookalikes. It probably still exists in some gardens, as eranthis
> seem to be pretty permanent plants, but who knows?
>
>
>
>
> --
> Rodger Whitlock
> Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
> Maritime Zone 8, a cool Mediterranean climate
>
> on beautiful Vancouver Island
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:41:59 -0400
> From: "Jim McKenney" <jimmckenney at jimmckenney.com>
> Subject: Re: [pbs] Eranthis hyemails 'Guinea Gold'
> To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" <pbs at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <001a01c88930$22f9a240$2f01a8c0 at Library>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I think I follow you, Roger.
>
> If so, then to indicate that scenario where all the claimants to the name
> Guinea Gold are grouped, should we write Eranthis hyemalis Tubergenii
> Group
> Guinea Gold Group?
> Eranthis hyemalis Guinea Gold Group?
> Eranthis Guinea Gold Group?
>
> Is there a better way?
>
> Jim McKenney
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:45:27 +0000
> From: David Victor <davidxvictor at btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: [pbs] Eranthis hyemalis Tubergenii Group 'Guinea Gold'
> To: pbs at lists.ibiblio.org
> Message-ID: <20080318194540.B6A9B4C02A at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> You raised a question about the term Tubergenii Group. Its a
> cultivar group name i.e. a superset of cultivars which contains the
> cultivar 'Guinea Gold'. Someone somewhere has published the name
> Tubergenii Group, together with a description of the range of
> cultivars that it includes. The rules are laid down in the Cultivated
> Code.
>
> The aim with such a grouping is to pull together plants that have a
> horticultural relationship which are within a Denomination Class (as
> laid down by the Cultivated Code, which is normally a genus), but
> which otherwise may not be a very close botanical relationship. For
> example, it could be a group of variegated plants or a group of early
> flowering varieties. However, the groups that are normally chosen
> are close and are often a group of interspecific hybrids.
>
> An appropriate example taken from the Code might be in Iris, the
> Dutch Group, which includes the complex of early flowering cultivars
> arising mainly from I. tingitana, I. xiphium var. lusitanica and I
> xiphium var. praecox.
>
> Incidentally, one useful feature of such Groups for horticultural
> purposes is that a particular cultivar can be in more than one group,
> depending on the need of the author.
>
> Best regards,
> David Victor
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:05:23 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Jim McKenney <jamesamckenney at verizon.net>
> Subject: [pbs] Merendera sobolifera
> To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <247132.20871.qm at web84312.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> I mentioned Merendera sobolifera and its peculiar floral construction in
> several recent posts. I?ve added three images of Merendera sobolifera to
> the wiki this afternoon. These show the unusual corm, the peculiar,
> tenuous, elongated tepals and the ?hooks? which hold the tepals together
> at the waist (arcane botanical term) of the flower.
>
> Take a look at:
>
> http://www.pacificbulbsociety.org/pbswiki/index.php/Merendera
>
> Enjoy!
>
> Jim McKenney
> jimmckenney at jimmckenney.com
> Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871? North, 77.09829? West, USDA
> zone 7
> My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com
> BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/
>
> Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS
> Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org
>
> Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 07:54:33 +1100
> From: "Paul T." <ptyerman at ozemail.com.au>
> Subject: Re: [pbs] Eranthis hyemails 'Guinea Gold'
> To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <69naj8$73npi9 at outbound.icp-qv1-irony-out3.iinet.net.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
>
>>
>>If so, then to indicate that scenario where all the claimants to the name
>>Guinea Gold are grouped, should we write Eranthis hyemalis Tubergenii
>>Group
>>Guinea Gold Group?
>>Eranthis hyemalis Guinea Gold Group?
>>Eranthis Guinea Gold Group?
>
> Jim,
>
> Does the "aff" tag fit here? Never quite sure how it is
> applied. Always think of it as meaning "related to" or "possibly"
> when I see it in naming. Could Eranthis aff. 'Guinea Gold' be
> applied in this case?
>
> Are many of the 'Guina Gold' that are about coming from seedlings
> from the original? Given it is a hybrid between species (or not,
> depending on whether they're all hyemalis <grin>) then I would assume
> you'd throw back to both sides, which would give you a whole range of
> different flowers under the one name etc?
>
> Cheers.
>
> Paul T.
> Canberra, Australia - USDA Zone Equivalent approx. 8/9
>
> Growing an eclectic collection of plants from all over the world
> including Aroids, Crocus, Cyclamen, Erythroniums, Fritillarias,
> Galanthus, Irises, Trilliums (to name but a few) and just about
> anything else that doesn't move!!
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:35:15 -0400
> From: "Jim McKenney" <jimmckenney at jimmckenney.com>
> Subject: Re: [pbs] Eranthis hyemalis Tubergenii Group 'Guinea Gold'
> To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" <pbs at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <001b01c8893f$f56aeef0$2f01a8c0 at Library>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Thanks, David and Paul.
>
> David, you sort of touched on the aspect of the capital G Group concept
> which appeals to me so greatly, and which makes it such a useful tool when
> sorting out plants without pedigrees: while it's axiomatic that the
> categories of formal botany not be polyphyletic, the elements which make
> up
> a capital G Group may be polyphyletic.
>
> Has no subset (i.e. capital G Group) of Tubergenii Group been named for
> the
> group of cultivars which are candidates for consideration as 'Guinea
> Gold'?
>
> The plants which make up Tubergenii Group as I know it range widely in
> characters. Many are not particularly desirable as garden plants.
>
> But every once and a while one runs across a plant which has the sort of
> characteristics which make an exceptional garden plant and seems to answer
> to one's preconceived notion of what 'Guinea Gold' should be. These have
> presumably been the source of the "false Guinea Golds" said to be making
> the
> rounds.
>
> When the question before us is "which is the true 'Guinea Gold', that
> subset
> is the one we need to focus on.
>
> Paul mentioned the despicable practice (no bad reflection meant on you,
> Paul) of using the abbreviation aff. in naming plants. Aff. is neo-Latin
> for
> "beats me, I guess it's [fill in the blank]" Since all living things are
> presumably related at one level or another, every living thing is "aff"
> every other living thing to some degree. And so this aff. business doesn't
> tell us much. We gardeners are by and large optimistic sorts. Does hope
> bloom anywhere else so eternally as it does among gardeners?
>
> To answer your other question, Paul, I think I've read that the original
> 'Guinea Gold' is/was "sterile". I'll repeat my usual caveat here: claims
> of
> sterility in the older literature have to be taken with caution. Often the
> "sterility" in question is the result of a triploid condition in a
> population which is otherwise diploid. Such triploids often give abundant
> viable seed when pollinated by tetraploids.
>
>
> Jim McKenney
> jimmckenney at jimmckenney.com
> Montgomery County, Maryland, USA, 39.03871? North, 77.09829? West, USDA
> zone
> 7
> My Virtual Maryland Garden http://www.jimmckenney.com
> BLOG! http://mcwort.blogspot.com/
>
> Webmaster Potomac Valley Chapter, NARGS
> Editor PVC Bulletin http://www.pvcnargs.org
>
> Webmaster Potomac Lily Society http://www.potomaclilysociety.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:45:17 -0400
> From: "Jim McKenney" <jimmckenney at jimmckenney.com>
> Subject: Re: [pbs] Eranthis hyemalis Tubergenii Group 'Guinea Gold'
> To: "'Pacific Bulb Society'" <pbs at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <001c01c88941$5c039f80$2f01a8c0 at Library>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I noticed that David (thank you) unobtrusively corrected the typo in the
> subject line of my original post for this thread.
>
> Aside from the embarrassment, there is a practical aspect to this that's
> on
> my mind.
>
> If we correct typos in the subject line, will the messages with the
> correction link with the ones with the typo for search purposes?
>
> Jim McKenney
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 08:47:43 +1100
> From: "Paul T." <ptyerman at ozemail.com.au>
> Subject: Re: [pbs] Eranthis hyemalis Tubergenii Group 'Guinea Gold'
> To: Pacific Bulb Society <pbs at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <6eq1ke$5p6r1o at outbound.icp-qv1-irony-out4.iinet.net.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
>
>>
>>To answer your other question, Paul, I think I've read that the original
>>'Guinea Gold' is/was "sterile". I'll repeat my usual caveat here: claims
>>of
>>sterility in the older literature have to be taken with caution. Often the
>>"sterility" in question is the result of a triploid condition in a
>>population which is otherwise diploid. Such triploids often give abundant
>>viable seed when pollinated by tetraploids.
>
> Or, of course, they were sterile in those conditions, but taken into
> other conditions they were no longer sterile. I often here talk of
> particular things which are sterile in such-and-such a country, but
> here in Aus (or vice versa) they produce seed. Sometimes a change in
> environment can beat that sterility, and all it takes is one beating
> of that sterility to start producing those seedlings that muddy the
> waters as to the name being a clone or a group. And that is leaving
> aside the just plain "wrong thing under wrong name" problem that
> brings named clones uniqueness undone. <grin>
>
> Cheers.
>
> Paul T.
> Canberra, Australia - USDA Zone Equivalent approx. 8/9
>
> Growing an eclectic collection of plants from all over the world
> including Aroids, Crocus, Cyclamen, Erythroniums, Fritillarias,
> Galanthus, Irises, Trilliums (to name but a few) and just about
> anything else that doesn't move!!
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> pbs mailing list
> pbs at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/pbs
>
>
> End of pbs Digest, Vol 62, Issue 24
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