[NAFEX] nafex Digest, Vol 53, Issue 80 Question on NZC

Anthony Curcio apc at vassolinc.com
Wed Jun 27 11:17:31 EDT 2007


Michael,
The clover project sounds great.
Can you tell us what "a bit spindle " refers to ?
Did you plant in fall ? Did you use a cover crop ?
What did you do to prepare for planting ?
Would White Dutch work as well ??
Sorry for the long list of questions. We are very interested
in trying the clover. It is very time consuming to mow between the
trees, not to mention the concern of getting too close.
Right now we mulch the entire line which takes a lot of labor.
Thank you, Anthony

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <nafex-request at lists.ibiblio.org>
To: <nafex at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 6:43 AM
Subject: nafex Digest, Vol 53, Issue 80


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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Click Beetle Damage (Richard MURPHY)
>   2. New Zealand Clover (Richard MURPHY)
>   3. Re: New Zealand Clover (Michael Nave)
>   4. Re: Asian pears (ROBERT W   JUDY A HARTMAN)
>   5. Re: Badgersett hazelnuts (loneroc)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:56:37 -0400
> From: "Richard MURPHY" <murphman108 at msn.com>
> Subject: [NAFEX] Click Beetle Damage
> To: "nafex" <nafex at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <BAY101-DAV12E55FB6F1D8EBE678DCEBEC0B0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dammit Dammit Dammit     !!!!!!!
>
> Never Again  !!!
>
> Click Beetles are Very BAD !!!
>
> I left a bunch of them on some one-year-old Tart Cherry trees 2 weeks ago, 
> because they were jusy perched on leaf petioles, appearing to do 
> absolutely nothing. 'Waiting for aphids to eat', I thought, maybe, and 
> left them be. Well friends, last Saturday I went up to find those 8 trees 
> seriously defoliated, 4 of which are plucked bald.
>
> No more mister nice guy. No more words like 'probably, maybe, could, 
> sometimes, usually, etc", describing an insect's habit. Unless it is a 
> documented, proven carnivore and does not eat leaves, I will kill it. 
> Maybe unless you live there, and have the time to count bugs on a daily 
> basis. I don't. I need 2 weeks of 'get away from me' that I can spray on 
> and have it work. So far, Permethrin wins that prize.
>
> Mad Murph.
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 17:12:49 -0400
> From: "Richard MURPHY" <murphman108 at msn.com>
> Subject: [NAFEX] New Zealand Clover
> To: "nafex" <nafex at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <BAY101-DAV19729A41B0C81457109467EC0B0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Here's my observation / comments on NZC............
>
> For Orchard Alley rows Ground Cover, this New Zealand Clover isn't bad, so 
> far.
>
> I planted it last year, and it germinated quickly. Fairly good fill, a bit 
> spindle because I put down too much seed.
> Then, this Spring I had to mow the whole mess once, as there was still a 
> little Timothy hay sneaking through, and a tiny bit of Rape. Having done 
> that one mow, it has come back to about a 6" height, and all are in bloom 
> with white clover flowers.
>    The idea here is to reduce mowing time without allowing the alleys to 
> become 4' tall weeds. So far, the NZC has choked out all competition, and 
> provides stable footing rather than mud. The one thing that I do worry 
> about is voles. This stuff looks like it would be the perfect little 'mini 
> canopy' for voles to run around under. To that end, I am building some 
> bait stations for my little pals. More on that later. One could also then 
> argue, that sprinkling a few of the Zinc Phosphide grain bait pellets near 
> the trees is not too risky, because the birds can't see the pellets below 
> the canopy !! Yay.
>    Well, the reduced mowing is working so far. Last week I mowed the 
> Apples and the Saskatoons alleys, and smiled at the NZC. It also attracts 
> bees. There must be a trade-off, but I haven't seen it yet.
>
> You might want to try a small patch of this clover. It's not too expensive 
> to seed. A little goes a long way.
>
> Richard Murphy
> zone 4 Maine
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 15:26:01 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Michael Nave <jmichaelnave at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] New Zealand Clover
> To: North American Fruit Explorers <nafex at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <804280.69534.qm at web50901.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> The trade off may yet be the voles. They don't come in
> overnight. They build up over the years.
>
>
> --- Richard MURPHY <murphman108 at msn.com> wrote:
>
>> Here's my observation / comments on NZC............
>>
>> For Orchard Alley rows Ground Cover, this New
>> Zealand Clover isn't bad, so far.
>>
>> I planted it last year, and it germinated quickly.
>> Fairly good fill, a bit spindle because I put down
>> too much seed.
>> Then, this Spring I had to mow the whole mess once,
>> as there was still a little Timothy hay sneaking
>> through, and a tiny bit of Rape. Having done that
>> one mow, it has come back to about a 6" height, and
>> all are in bloom with white clover flowers.
>>     The idea here is to reduce mowing time without
>> allowing the alleys to become 4' tall weeds. So far,
>> the NZC has choked out all competition, and provides
>> stable footing rather than mud. The one thing that I
>> do worry about is voles. This stuff looks like it
>> would be the perfect little 'mini canopy' for voles
>> to run around under. To that end, I am building some
>> bait stations for my little pals. More on that
>> later. One could also then argue, that sprinkling a
>> few of the Zinc Phosphide grain bait pellets near
>> the trees is not too risky, because the birds can't
>> see the pellets below the canopy !! Yay.
>>     Well, the reduced mowing is working so far. Last
>> week I mowed the Apples and the Saskatoons alleys,
>> and smiled at the NZC. It also attracts bees. There
>> must be a trade-off, but I haven't seen it yet.
>>
>> You might want to try a small patch of this clover.
>> It's not too expensive to seed. A little goes a long
>> way.
>>
>> Richard Murphy
>> zone 4 Maine>
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> ------------------------------
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> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 22:29:59 -0700
> From: "ROBERT W   JUDY A HARTMAN" <hartmansfruit at msn.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] Asian pears
> To: "North American Fruit Explorers" <nafex at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <BAY107-DAV19BB0B414158674B3E939EA70A0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> I am curious as to what rootstock your Asian pears are grafted on to to 
> make them dwarf.  A number of years ago I had grafted some Asian pears 
> onto quince with an Old Home interstem.  They tended to stunt out at a 
> young age.  The last few years I have put the Asian pears onto Pyrodwarf 
> and they seem to do fine although Pyrodwarf is a relative new rootstock.
>
> I have Korean Giant and Olympic.  The pears from the two varieties 
> visually look the same but when I cut them open and taste them the Korean 
> Giant was sweeter, at least at my location and the environment was the 
> same for both.  I've heard that they are different strains of the same 
> variety.  I just know that there is a difference in taste.
>
> Bob
> Western Washington
>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>  From: William C. Garthright<mailto:billg at inebraska.com>
>  To: North American Fruit Explorers<mailto:nafex at lists.ibiblio.org>
>  Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 11:03 AM
>  Subject: Re: [NAFEX] Asian pears
>
>
>
>  > On a separate topic, I have found exactly one Asian pear. All the other 
> flowers and young fruit got zapped by the freeze.  On a more positive 
> note, all the plants seem to be in good shape.
>  >
>
>
>  My two Asian pears were only planted last year, so of course they aren't
>  yet producing fruit. But after the freeze, they looked about the worst
>  of anything. Neither was too big - the New Century or Shinseiki
>  especially, since it really struggled in our heat last summer - and I
>  honestly wondered if they'd survive the freeze at all. But they're
>  looking surprisingly good.
>
>  The Starking Hardy Giant (or Olympic or Korean Giant - every nursery
>  seems to call the same Asian pear cultivars something different) started
>  leafing out again, um... fairly quickly, and seems to be really taking
>  off this year. It just seems to be much more vigorous in every way than
>  the other. As I say, the New Century (or Shinseiki) really struggled
>  last year, so it was pretty small and scrawny even before the freeze,
>  though it had been sprouting out very strongly in March. Afterwards, it
>  took a long time to green up again, but it seems to be doing fine now.
>  It's not growing anywhere near as strongly as its neighbor, and it
>  remains quite small, but it seems healthy enough. I'm just amazed at
>  what these things can take from Mother Nature and still recover.
>
>  PS. I also planted a Hosui Asian pear this year. That's probably more
>  than enough, if they all make it. (Note that these are all on dwarf
>  rootstocks.)
>
>  Bill
>  Lincoln, NE (zone 5)
>
>  -- 
>  I am among those who think that science has great beauty. A scientist in
>  his laboratory is not only a technician: he is also a child placed
>  before natural phenomena which impress him like a fairy tale. - Marie 
> Curie
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> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 06:42:11 -0500
> From: "loneroc" <loneroc at mwt.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] Badgersett hazelnuts
> To: "North American Fruit Explorers" <nafex at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Message-ID: <001301c7b8b0$33c4aa30$0b6fbecf at steve8b3d64f1c>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi Donna---I do have several "plantings" of Rutter's stuff to the tune of
> about 50 plants---I also have a 75 foot row of Oikos' 'Precocious' 
> cultivar.
> The Oikos plants uniformly have reached about 12' tall and throw up 
> straight
> suckers or rather basal shoots--since only a few of the plants actual 
> expand
> much via suckering.  The Oikos nuts vary in size but average much smaller
> than Rutter's nuts.  My row of 'Precocious' (which was not particularly
> early bearing) is in the process of dying from Eastern Hazel Blight-at 
> least
> half a dozen plants have bough the farm to date and more have been hit.
> Since the plants in question were placed near the highway right-of-way to
> block prying eyes, one might think I'd be disappointed, but I subsequently
> planted a much more attractive line of evergreens and 'Japanese-y' fence
> panels which block the outside world just fine.  The hazels that gave up 
> the
> ghost were directly in front of the largest panel and though they have
> created a window, passersby still can't see through:-)  The Oikos hazels 
> can
> all die without much regret on my part; they do make really nice garden
> stakes, so whatever survives (only some show disease signs) will be still 
> be
> used, if not for the nuts.
>
> The Rutter hazels all are in the 6-8 foot range and are much bushier.  The
> nuts vary in shape and size somewhat but the largest are as large or 
> larger
> than the hazels you find in a can of mixed nuts.  (I don't think I've ever
> been able to purchase just plain hazels, though I did have a dish of
> hazelnut ice cream in Bangkok recently that was the best ice cream I've 
> ever
> eaten--coming from a Wisconsin boy who only generally prefers vanilla 
> that's
> no small praise.  Who ever heard of hazelnut ice cream?)
>
> Rutter's hazels bear heavily, the branches bending under the weight of the
> nuts, and they seem to be regular bearers.  I'm a bit ashamed to say that
> thus far, the mice, voles and blue jays have eaten my crop.  I haven't
> gotten around to picking many.  One harvests them most easily by picking
> whole clusters of nuts, husks and all, prior to the husk-split and then
> letting them sit for a few weeks for the husks to dry--then the nuts just
> fall away from the husks.  Some of the plants drop their nuts easily when
> the husk opens and others seem to hold on to their nuts better.  The 
> reason
> for the two-stage harvest:  you don't have to race the critters to the 
> nuts.
> Rutter's plants show no sign of the blight.
>
> In addition to time constraints--damn job-- I've been a bit reticent to 
> eat
> the nuts because I had an allergic reaction to one of the Oikos fruits.  I
> had harvested a peck or so and cracked a few out, eating them raw--nuts 
> from
> one of the plants caused my throat to swell in a most disconcerting way. 
> I
> suppose that I could have kept the nuts from individual plants separate 
> and
> then tested to see which one brought me to the brink of anaphylaxis, but 
> it
> seemed like a lot of work.  I've never shown signs of being allergic to 
> any
> other nut.  Perhaps someone on the list knows whether roasting would 
> destroy
> any allergens--although this doesn't happen in the case of peanuts.  I'll
> try again--gingerly--with the Rutter nuts at some point.  This fall I 
> should
> get a decent harvest and I need to assess quality down the rows, perhaps
> removing any truly inferior plants.  In my precursory observations there 
> are
> not too many bad ones.  My Badgered hazels are planted at the back side of
> my property behind a row of raspberries and it's a bit awkward to examine
> them without making a deliberate effort at closer inspection.
>
> The last fact I'll bore you with is that Rutter's Amish workers don't
> actually pollinate his trees, rather they remove (male) catkins from ALL 
> but
> the most superior plants in his orchard, thereby guaranteeing that his 
> best
> nut producers are pollinated by superior parents.  This has been his
> breeding technique for many generations of crosses.  Since hazels are wind
> pollinated, the Amish boys (there are girls and adults involved, too) 
> don't
> have to make any difficult horticultural decisions.  The just pull the
> catkins off all plants that don't have bright red tape hanging from the
> bush.  I've visited the Badgered operations twice, and came away very
> impressed with Phil's accomplishment.  We conversed for a couple of hours
> each visit.  Your suspicion that he doesn't suffer fools gladly is, I
> suspect, correct.  At least I'd like to think so, since he didn't run the
> other way when he saw me coming the second time.
>
>
> Steve Herje, Lone Rock, WI ASDA zone 3 (where the Rutter hazels have not 
> yet
> been examined this season for their potential crop.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Donna &/or Kieran" <holycow at cookeville.com>
> To: "North American Fruit Explorers" <nafex at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 6:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [NAFEX] Badgersett hazelnuts
>
>
>> Steve,  You have Badgersett hazels???  Can you tell me how big the nuts
> are?
>> I hemmed and hawed for about 4 years before ordering mine, just got them 
>> a
>> month ago and had to put them in pots as the ground is too dry in the
>> drought.  The longer I waited, the more curious and puzzled I got.  His
> site
>> is not hard to find, and he talks on it like they sell a lot of their
>> seedlings, but I couldn't find even one reference to his place or his
> stuff
>> on the Net.  He has a pretty impressive amount of literature on hazels 
>> and
>> chestnuts on the net, including the translation of a valuable document
> from
>> China on chestnuts.  He is apparently a past president of the American
>> Chestnut Foundation, apparently back in the days when he was around other
>> people.  He has probably stepped on some toes, and it's obvious from his
>> website that he doesn't suffer fools gladly.  But I was getting sort of
>> nervous about the fact that nothing at all was being said on the Net 
>> about
>> his projects.  And I'd talked to Cecil Farris's widow who said I should
>> definitely get named varieties.  But Grinnell, Farris's friend, said he
> was
>> dropping the hazels because they didn't graft well.  I don't want grafted
>> plants anyway, the whole idea sounds stupid to me because a) they sucker
>> really badly so you lose your graft in a thicket of rootstock, and b) 
>> they
>> sucker so much that they are extremely easy to propagate on their own
> roots.
>> Nobody else seemed to be carrying Farris's stuff.
>>     I finally called Badgersett's county extension service and wound up
>> talking to 2 agents, one of them in forestry.  Both seemed to think
>> Badgersett's stuff was pretty neat.  One told me that he hired Amish
>> teenagers to hand pollinate some of his best plants.  One warned me that
>> because they were seedlings that they wouldn't be uniform.  He said one
> bush
>> might get 10' tall and the one beside it only grow to 3'.  I said I 
>> didn't
>> care about that.  Neither person had anything bad to say about the place
> or
>> the plants.  So I put in my order.
>>     I have recently talked to someone at Rutgers I think, a NNGA member
>> working with hazels, and he said that there had been some mixups of
> Farris's
>> stuff that led to some people thinking it wasn't disease resistant.  He
> said
>> the real Grand Traverse was indeed blight resistant and a good variety.
>>     The reason I'm doing all this looking for hazels is that the wild 
>> ones
>> are all over our place, and seedlings keep popping up.  I don't see all
> that
>> many nuts, partly because the bigger bushes had been getting shaded out
> but
>> that has been reversed now.  I'm figuring that hazels like our soil, and
>> that with some added phosphate they might put on some pretty decent 
>> crops.
>> Only trouble is that they make small nuts with thick shells that don't
> taste
>> as good as European hazels.  Farris talked a lot about flavor and oil
>> content.  If I get some good plants going I'l probably do some grafting 
>> to
>> ours just to up the production, not because it's an efficient way to
>> propagate them.
>>     Anyway, anything you can tell me about the stuff you got from Phil
> would
>> be helpful.  Also, I'm looking for anyone who has any of Cecil's plants.
>> Donna
>>
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