From fullcircle@jps.net Mon Jan 24 21:51:47 2000
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Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:39:34 -0800
To: market-farming post <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Announcing the Market Farming discussion group.


Hi all,

Forgive the cross-posts and feel free to pass this around freely.

New mailing list/newgroup/webforum for Market Farming
Please send to all appropriate venues.

Announcing the Market Farming discussion group.
-----------------------------------------------

At last, a truly practical, production-oriented mailing list for farmers
of
small acreage, owned and administered by farmers of small acreage.  The
challenges of making a living providing food and fiber to
consumer-direct
markets from small acreage are different from those of large landholders
both in scale and scope.  The consumer-direct aspect, whether to
restaurants, farmers' markets, CSAs, or websites, provides challenges
distinct from the wholesale, packing house, or broker marketplace.  We
invite all small aceage farmers, regardless of their market outlet, to
participate in this forum.

We hope to see discussions on appropriate scale production methods and
equipment, marketing and profitability, cropping sequences and
diversification, sustainability, both of the land and of the farm
family,
working with extension agents, private consultants, and fellow farmers,
in
other words, all those things involved in making a living providing food
and fiber from your small acreage.

The technology for this forum is provided by MetaLab through their Lyris
mailing list server. This powerful software allows participation by
either
Web browser, newgroup reader or e-mail, allowing farmers who only use
email
to gain access.

Self-subscribe through the Web by accessing the website at
http://franklin.oit.unc.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=market-farming

In case you do not have Web access or for any reason need to use the
email
interface send an e-mail to:

lyris@franklin.oit.unc.edu
--------------------------

with any one of the following messages in either the subject line or
message body:

subscribe market-farming
subscribe market-farming your_name
join market-farming your_name
alternate address: join-market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu

The FAQ will be sent to you to show you have successfully subscribed
or you may read it (market-farming.faq) at:

http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/documents/market-farming.faq

We welcome your participation!

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From cavm@aol.com Mon Jan 24 22:41:24 2000
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Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:41:22
Subject: relations with neighbors
To: market-farming
From: "Cornelius A. Van Milligen" <cavm@aol.com>


In this hype-sensative society we live in the relationship of even a small 
farmer to his/her neighbors is a big concern.  Is it appropriate to dicuss 
in this forum the various ways we can keep things peaceful with those 
around us?

What about odors, flies, manure, runnoff, surplus production, fertilizers, 
noise, etc?

From genevieve.carruthers@agric.nsw.gov.au Mon Jan 24 23:04:16 2000
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From: "Genevieve Carruthers"<genevieve.carruthers@agric.nsw.gov.au>
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     In response to this - as much of my work is involved in trying to sort 
     out disputes between urban/rural dwellers, and to ensure sustainable 
     agriculture, this is a suitable topic (although it is also covered a 
     lot on sites such as Sanet and Agnet). However, I joined primarily to 
     see what sort of market incentives there might be for sustainable 
     farming, and the items below seem to fit more into the regulatory 
     response area.
     
     Genevieve Carruthers
     Environmental 
     Systems Specialist
     New South Wales Agriculture
     AUSTRALIA


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: relations with neighbors 
Author:  "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu> at smtpgwy
Date:    24/1/00 22:41


In this hype-sensative society we live in the relationship of even a small 
farmer to his/her neighbors is a big concern.  Is it appropriate to dicuss 
in this forum the various ways we can keep things peaceful with those 
around us?
     
What about odors, flies, manure, runnoff, surplus production, fertilizers, 
noise, etc?
     
---
You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: genevieve.carruthers@agric.ns
gov.au
To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-market-farming-98931O@franklin.oit.un
edu
     
     


From fullcircle@jps.net Tue Jan 25 04:00:19 2000
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Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 23:50:32 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: relations with neighbors


Genevieve,

This forum is more oriented toward production and marketing issues.  Direct
problems like spray drift may be appropriate but philosophical questions
are probably more the perview of forums like Sanet.

Thanks for asking

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From farmsted@cfw.com Tue Jan 25 06:28:00 2000
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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 6:27:53
Subject: Congrats!
To: market-farming
From: "Jeff Ishee" <farmsted@cfw.com>


  I must admit . . . It's exciting to see a new discussion group related to 
market farming.
  We've all witnessed some phenomenal growth in our sector of agriculture 
during the past few years. I hope that the "market-farming" list will be 
not only a true forum for producers and participants in this dynamic 
vocation, but a continuous "electronic field day"  where we all learn and 
share effective techniques in production and marketing.
  Might I be so bold as to suggest that we refrain from political and 
philosophical matters, and yes, even those potentially provocative points 
that we all enjoy pontificating in other lists. I would encourage 
participants to stick to the subject matter as introduced by Marcie.

"making a living providing food and fiber to consumer-direct markets from 
small acreage"

  Again - congrats on the new discussion list. Let's learn from each other 
and do great things for small-scale, high profit agriculture.

Jeff Ishee
Bittersweet Farmstead
Middlebrook, Virginia

From awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us Tue Jan 25 09:36:57 2000
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From: "Wiediger, Alison" <awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us>
To: 'market farming list serv' <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: introduction
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 08:23:14 -0600
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I'd like to introduce us : Paul and Alison Wiediger, Au Naturel Farm, Smith
Grove, KY, 84 certified organic acres, grass finished beef and lamb, organic
veggies and cut flowers, potted perennials, year-round growing in unheated
high tunnels (unheated greenhouses, cold frames, hoop houses, whatever you
call them).

We market to retail customers in the town closest to us, Bowling Green.  We
each have 25 years experience growing organically, and this farm has been
organic for 10.

We had an article on our winter growing published in the Jan issue of
"Growing for Market" and are planning to hold a day-long workshop on the
techniques this summer.

We're very glad to see a list serv devoted to the issues of market growing,
and hope for a lot of good information exchange.

Paul and Alison Wiediger
Au Naturel Farm
Smiths Grove, KY

From random@palas.com Tue Jan 25 10:28:13 2000
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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:28:9
Subject: Tomato Support?
To: market-farming
From: "John Swartz" <random@palas.com>


Greetings,

With a new list like this it's always a little difficult to decide whether 
a question or comment is on topic or not.  If this is inappropriate let me 
know...  thanks.

We've grown tomatoes for market for several years now, but haven't really 
found a *good* way of supporting them.  We've tried not supporting them 
(low labor input but, low fruit output, sunscald, definitely not the way to 
go), staking, string trellises,  post and lintels made of 2X2.  This year 
we're considering cages.  I had been planning to make the cages out of 
woven wire fencing, but then read somewhere that people were using hog 
panels (!?!)  Anybody doing that?  If so, how do you roll that stuff up? 
It's pretty stiff.

We've also had problems with transporting the tomatoes without bruising 
them.  I'm considering lining the crates etc. with bubble wrap...  Any 
ideas there?

Again, I hope I'm not off topic, and I'm really looking forward to 
following this group.

John Swartz
Copper Pig Farm
Center Square, Indiana, USA

From flowers@rt66.com Tue Jan 25 10:33:00 2000
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To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: row cover


severl local farmers have been looking for row cover that has the  best
field life any sugestions? one tried pro 17 with the reinforcemnet and found
it a disaster as the reinforcing mesh fell apart in field and contaminated
his greens
martin

Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow



From awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us Tue Jan 25 10:34:41 2000
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From: "Wiediger, Alison" <awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us>
To: 'market farming' <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: RE: Tomato Support?
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 09:20:48 -0600
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We tried a method we liked last year, and will expand it this year.  We used
6' steel fence posts, in the middle of a 4' bed, about 10-12' apart, with
the end posts slanted like a deadman.  We used high-tensile fencing wire, 1
strand at the top, with a strainer in the middle to tighten it.  Then we
used twine down from the wire to the tomatoes planted on both sides.  The
tomatoes were minimally suckered, and trained to two leaders up the twine.
It might not work for a really aggressive non-determinate, but worked well
for most of our plants.

On transporting, we never pack more than two layers deep if the tomatoes are
ripe.  But, we have collected, at our local grocery store, the boxes they
get hydroponic tomatoes in, and they have individual rounded sections for
each tomato - a terrific way to transport those wonderful, tasty, but
fragile heirlooms in a ripe state.

Alison Wiediger
Au Naturel Farm
Smiths Grove, KY

> ----------
> From: 	John Swartz[SMTP:random@palas.com]
> Reply To: 	market farming
> Sent: 	Monday, January 24, 2000 7:00 PM
> To: 	market farming
> Subject: 	Tomato Support?
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> With a new list like this it's always a little difficult to decide whether
> 
> a question or comment is on topic or not.  If this is inappropriate let me
> 
> know...  thanks.
> 
> We've grown tomatoes for market for several years now, but haven't really 
> found a *good* way of supporting them.  We've tried not supporting them 
> (low labor input but, low fruit output, sunscald, definitely not the way
> to 
> go), staking, string trellises,  post and lintels made of 2X2.  This year 
> we're considering cages.  I had been planning to make the cages out of 
> woven wire fencing, but then read somewhere that people were using hog 
> panels (!?!)  Anybody doing that?  If so, how do you roll that stuff up? 
> It's pretty stiff.
> 
> We've also had problems with transporting the tomatoes without bruising 
> them.  I'm considering lining the crates etc. with bubble wrap...  Any 
> ideas there?
> 
> Again, I hope I'm not off topic, and I'm really looking forward to 
> following this group.
> 
> John Swartz
> Copper Pig Farm
> Center Square, Indiana, USA
> 
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as:
> awiediger@hart.k12.ky.us
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
> 

From flowers@rt66.com Tue Jan 25 10:47:37 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: Tomato Support?


considering cages.  : we've used 6/6/10/10 concrete reinforcing wire. pretty
cost effective and  easy to use,can be repaired and even run over with
tractor and reformed..:)
lasts many years 
cages increase yields and work super wth plastic weed barrier
 
we have been using the long term weed barrier designed for greenhouse floors
or field production of containerized plants
 its high dollar per sq foot (~$0.05/sq foot  or $2200 per acre vs 1 mil
@108/acre)but lasts many years(10 so far) so i think the cost is about the
same as i mil black plastic over the life of the fabric but handles weeds
better and does not get destroyed by elk !or dogs 
martin

>

>
>
>
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow



From fullcircle@jps.net Tue Jan 25 11:05:16 2000
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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 08:04:34 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Tomato Support?


John,

You're right on topic.  This is exactly why we started this list.

I use field fence cages, about 2 feet in diameter, for my peppers ( they
top the cage by the end of the season) and my early determinate tomatoes.
My heirlooms are just too darn big for this approach.

For heirlooms, we use 8 foot sections of easy pull conduit, 4 feet apart
dropped into a 2 foot deep pilot hole.  We plant one tomato at each pole
and one in the middle, then we do that labor-intensive basket weave with
untreated sisal.  We weave 4-6 poles at a time.  This is great work day
stuff if you have a CSA.

If you're small enough, or have access to a lot of field fencing scraps, it
might be possible to stack field fence cages one on top of the other using
conduit or a 2x2 for support.  It's a trade-off between capital investment
and labor.  Of course, there's always the labor to set-up and take down any
system.

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From fullcircle@jps.net Tue Jan 25 11:21:41 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Transporting tomatoes


Jon Swartz asks

>We've also had problems with transporting the tomatoes without bruising
>them.  I'm considering lining the crates etc. with bubble wrap...  Any
>ideas there?

Vine-ripened heirlooms are a tough transport.  I found that we had more
bruises from pickers that from the actual transport.  If you looked at the
bruises, they were where a thumb and four fingers grabbed the tender big
guys.

We taught our helpers to cradle the tomato with one hand and pull from the
shoulders or use pruners to cut the stem close.  We pack them shoulders
down in recycled LA lugs we collect during the winter Chilean fruit season.
LA lugs are the wooden ended,  paper sided containers that grapes and
tree-fruit come in here.  I've recently seen a shift to styrofoam, however.
I know the evening stocking schedule at several local grocery stores.  The
health code won't let the produce guys save empty boxes in the back room,
so I have to get them as the department is stocked.  Be sure you get the
lids so your boxes are stackable.

Bubble wrap in the bottom is a good idea.  Be sure to wash it with a bleach
or food-grade peroxide to keep it clean.  That obviously means using it
smooth-side up.


Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From pike@always-online.com Tue Jan 25 11:47:52 2000
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Hi Alison & Paul!  This is great, isn't it!  I hope everyone picks up on
this thread to introduce themselves.

I'm Liz Pike of Morningstar Gardens in very snowy Pollocksville, NC.  We
have 45 acres-5 acre homesite, 17 leased to a conventional farmer, the rest
is wooded/wetlands.  I kept out 5 acres for my non-certified organic, market
garden, which at the present time is 3200 sq ft, which will eventually grow
to fill those 5 acres.  Still debating the certification thing, but we'll
see.    We just started raising meat rabbits, and had 80 chickens whom we
lost to a wild dog attack back in August, along with 5 rabbits (breeding
stock!)-must start over this spring.  1 surviving chicken became a housepet
& has her cage in our basement living room.  (We put her out in the snow
this morning & she promptly flew around the house to the kitchen window
sill, wanting to be let back in.  She's now foraging through the cat & dog
food-LOL!)  Besides the usual veggies, we sell lots of sunflowers, fresh as
bouquets, then dried in the fall, with a bit of raffia, jute & other dried
fruit & flowers as au naturel bird feeders.  I sell through the New Bern
Farmer's Market which is 15 miles away, and hope within a year or two to
have an on-farm stand, & subscription gardening similar to a CSA .  Still
got lots to learn & experience!

How 'bout it everyone?   Step right up & let's get to know you!

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina

PS  To Lawrence & Marcie-thank you, thank you, thank you from the bottom of
my heart!  Great work!


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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-33452-2000.01.25-10.28.12--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Tomato Support?
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:58:40 -0500
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Hi John!  For market farming, I don't think this is off topic--if it is then
lots of us are in the wrong place!  ; }

I don't think hog panels can be rolled up-ours can't.  We use them for
various needs, hadn't really thought of using them to stake tomatoes.  Great
idea.  Farmers around here use fencing with 4x4 or 6x6 holes on each side of
a tomato row.  They then insert stakes, horizontally near the plants,
resting them in the holes for the plants to use as support.  Callaway
Gardens, last year, trialed growing tomatoes on twine similar to beans.
I've thought about trying this, but I don't have the time to train the
plants up the twine.  In the past, I've let them sprawl, and after 6
encounters last year with black widow spiders who love sprawling tomatoes,
I've got to do something different.  The hog panels sound interesting.
I've resisted using the popular concrete reinforcing wire as it is so rusty
even before you buy it!

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina




From pike@always-online.com Tue Jan 25 12:03:41 2000
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Subject: Re: Tomato Support?
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Marcie, If only we could see pictures of this tomato weave!  (Don't hit
me--I'm thankful enough for the new list!)

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina


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Subject: Re: Transporting tomatoes
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----- Original Message -----
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Transporting tomatoes


> We pack them shoulders down in recycled LA lugs we collect during the
winter Chilean fruit season. LA lugs are the wooden ended,  paper sided
containers that grapes and tree-fruit come in here.  <

Do you wash these lugs?  Chilean fruit is loaded with pesticides.   Organic
produce can only be put in reuseable containers from other organic
produce-according to my agency-if & when I certify.

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina


From growing4market@earthlink.net Tue Jan 25 12:10:13 2000
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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:07:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Tomato Support?
From: "Lynn Byczynski" <growing4market@earthlink.net>
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Greetings,

If some of the tomatoes you are growing are shorter indeterminates, Red
Cardinal Farm in the Minneapolis area uses tunnels of concrete reinforcing
wire.  They lop the wire off every 7 sections, I believe.  After planting,
laying drip and mulching, they then lay the tunnel, each section covers
maybe 3 plants.  The plants grow up through the tunnel.  Most uses for
reinforcing wire involve tall standing cages, which may be necessary for
heirlooms or indeterminates, but these things looked like they worked great
fro shorter plants, and you can nest them for storage at the end of the
year.

---
Dan Nagengast <growing4market@earthlink.net>
Growing for Market 
Kansas Rural Center 785/748-0959



>
>

From lh@pressroom.com Tue Jan 25 12:13:24 2000
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References:
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 nc.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:13:34 -0500
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Leigh Hauter <lh@pressroom.com>
Subject: Re: Tomato Support?


I've tried just about everything with tomatoes and I'm not sure which is
the best.  Last year we trellised about 400 and staked an equal amount.
They both take work and while, theoretically, trellising is easier, I
wasn't so sure.  Runnning fencing beside the tomato row is easiest but it
seems rather expensive. and cleaning thte fence is always a problem.

Just letting them sprawl, unless you are growing an industrial type tomato
like the large growers in Florida do, is sure wasteful..  It seems you lose
atleast 3 or 4 times more tomatoes that way.

From cgrowers@guppy.pond.net Tue Jan 25 13:00:35 2000
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Subject: Re: Transporting tomatoes
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 00 10:11:09 -0800
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Short Intro: Creative Growers raises 3 acres of mixed produce, edible 
flowers, cut flowers, and herbs on 3 owned acres & 3 rented acres in 
Western Oregon, 20 miles west of Eugene. Our primary marketing is to area 
restaurants, but we also have a small subscription program. In addition, 
we raise and process 1500-2000 broilers on 12 acres of pasture, sold to 
individuals off the farm.

We raise around 700 row feet of tomatoes each year in Western Oregon. All 
plants are transplanted into single-row beds with IRT film laid down at 
least 1 week prior, more if time allows. Our primary market is 
restaurants, and last year we raised something like 30 varieties. No, not 
all of them were worthwhile, but the diversity is what we're going for.  
Our tomato offerings break down to about 100 ft or so of cherry tomatoes, 
marketed as a colorful mix (except for currants, marketed seperately), an 
equal amount of canners (mostly for us). The remaining space is 40% red 
slicers & 60% heirlooms of every color out there.

All tomatoes are supported using the stake & weave method: a T-post stake 
between every 3 plants (ie, 3 plants between each stake), plastic twine 
is wrapped around each post & pulled taught between posts, repeated on 
each side. Weaving is done so that the twine rests below a couple nodes 
from the top. I try to weave once a week, although it often turns into 
every other, from a week or two after transplanting in June until the 
second week of September. The last several weavings are key, especially 
for heavy yeilding indeterminates, such as Brandywines. Otherwise, the 
tops tip over, and greatly increase harvesting time, or the overall tippy 
weight brings down an entire section of plants.
It usually takes me about an hour to 1.5 to weave all 3 rows, depending 
on how messy they are. Employees usually take 30-45 minutes longer.

Other cultural notes: the main drawback of this system has been some 
occurance of sunscald on southern facing fruits. This may be due to the 
twine tying back the foliage, exposing the fruit. This year we may try 
Sun Shield, an accepted Organic material that is supposed to protect 
against sunburning. We also spray the tomatoes every 7-10 days with 
chelated calcium and fish/kelp. This pretty well eliminated blossom end 
rot that has continually dogged many of the heirlooms in the past. As we 
already spray, a couple more applications of  Sun Shield shouldn't be too 
taxing on our system.

Harvesting: timing is CRITICAL! Our tomatoes must be able to hold in 
either a hot kitchen, or in the cooler (horrors!). Chefs and their crews 
generally have little time to baby product. We have found that if a 
tomato is ready to eat when picked, it is overripe. It will bruise when 
picked, bruise when sorted, bruise when transported to market, bruise 
when rifled through in the kitchen. ALL our tomatoes are picked 1-3 days 
early. This is when most color is present, but the flesh is firm, with a 
small amount of give. It is a feel thing, and probably the hardest crop 
to teach employees how to harvest. Yellows are the most critical - if a 
yellow tomato has all its color when picked, it will most likely have a 
mealy consistancy. Picked with some green within the yellow, the texture 
will remain firm while the flavor will retain some tartness/acidity when 
fully yellowed.  All our tomatoes are harvested onto plastic bread trays, 
lined with several layers of newspaper. The trays are tall enough to 
allow stacking without smooshing fruit. Trays are sorted by both type 
(green, yellow, red, pink, black, etc.) and ripeness. We have smaller 
plastic trays we use for packaging to one restaurant (again, they stack 
nicely, and hold up great in the jostling kitchen), and use either 
scavanged boxes or berry flats to the others.

2 more notes in closing:
1) If bruising persists during harvest or transport, you probably need to 
harvest the fruits a couple days earlier.
2) While hierlooms are once again the rage in the tomato world, remember 
that sometimes a variety goes out of production for good reasons, and 
should probably stay out of production.

Aaron

Creative Growers
Aaron Silverman
88741 Torrence Rd.
Noti, Or. 97461
cgrowers@pond.net
Quality Produce & Pastured Poultry


From goodows@excite.com Tue Jan 25 13:06:41 2000
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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:6:39
Subject: Re: Tomato Support?
To: market-farming
From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" <goodows@excite.com>


For tomatoe support we started using the tomato weave last season and 
really liked it. We grow mostly heirloom indetermanents. About 600 plants 
per season.
The way we do the weave is to put in a stake than 2 plants than another 
stake and on and on until we get to the end of the row (50').  The tomatoes 
are mulched and let to grow until they are about 12" high than we string 
the first weave. We start at one end and tie sisal twine to the stake (we 
get the rolls for a bailer). At the next stake we run a loop around it and 
tighted as much as possible and proceed to the next stake and put a loop 
around it and tighten until we get to the end of the row. Repeat up the 
other side of the row. I find this to be less labor than tieing the plants 
to stakes and can do all 600 plants in about two hours. We wait fro the 
plants to start to fall over before weaving again. On the first couple of 
weaves it is nice to have a helper tuck all the lower branches inside the 
string and make sure the plants are inside the weave and no outside of it.

When we ship tomatoes to market we use bread racks lined with either old 
row cover or toweling to keep them from injury. We are very careful picking 
and do it much like Marcie described. Another thing I do is make sure there 
is no stem left on the fruit before putting on the bread rack, stems will 
ruin a perfectly good tomato. This step adds time but has saved countless 
tomatoes. We like to pick right into the shipping containers so we touch 
the fruit as little as possible. If we have more tomatoes than bread racks 
than we pick into bushel baskets never going more than 2 high, usually we 
put a towel or row cover in the bottom for protection.

Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris Ohio

From guldann@ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 25 13:19:21 2000
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Subject: tomato support
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Hi new list thanks to Marcie and Lawrence for starting this.  My name is
Beth we have 85 acres in central Massachusetts also very snowy at the
moment.  We are entering our 3rd year as a CSA. We had 37 members last year
and will be no bigger this year.  We have an ecelectic mix of farm animals
and are hoping this summer to build a barn/farm stand/CSA distribution
center.  Ah wishes/money.
Tomatoes we tie ours up.  Two sturdy posts at each end of approx 50 ft row,
run a wire between two and support with tomato stakes.  Suckers removed from
tomatoes, twine wrapped around stem and tied on to wire.  Luckly this isn't
my job :), the guys are considering changing the methods this way:  instead
of  wrapping twine aroung the entire length of stem wrap a bit at bottom
then run twine up through small circular holers(I am not explaining this
well, we've seen the system in greenhouses) and then tie to wire should save
some time not wrapping.  I have an ok picture of our tomatoes if anyone
wants me to e-mail it to you.
Corn tell me everything you know :).  Someone else (I deleted the post) on
Csa list mentioned underplanting with vetch as a weed deterrent and as a N
source thought this sounded interesting.  I also plan to try planting
sunflower in the corn how far apart should they be?  Thanks Beth


From bg006@scn.org Tue Jan 25 13:26:57 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:26:44
Subject: CSA year round production for Western WA
To: market-farming
From: bg006@scn.org


I am about to enter my 7th season with CSA and am considering
year round production. Anybody out there in the north country
have any experience using heated or un heated greenhouses, straw bale,
double poly, woodstove, rabbits, hot water, cables, hot manure, forced air
air, etc. in such a way as to justify the profit of the vegies alone.
I am intrigued by the solviva greenhouse but $30,000.00 seems kind
of steep!

Is Eliot Coleman's Winter Harvest Manual gonna do it for me?
Thanks for this list Marcie!

Douglas Hendrickson
Salt Creek Farm CSA
Port Angeles, WA

From lh@pressroom.com Tue Jan 25 13:29:29 2000
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References:
 <LYR98960-33497-2000.01.25-12.10.11--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.un
 c.edu>
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:29:13 -0500
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Leigh Hauter <lh@pressroom.com>
Subject: Re: tomato support


 underplanting with vetch as a weed deterrent and as a N
>source thought this sounded interesting.


I think the usda has a handout on this.  Haven't tried it, though

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References: <LYR98963-33452-2000.01.25-10.28.12--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98960-33490-2000.01.25-11.57.10--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: grape tomatoes
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:43:19 -0800
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Keeping with the tomato theme, can anyone tell me a seed source for grape
tomatoes?  Johnny's sells the currants, which I had at a restaurant and all
I can say is they are pretty :).  Beth


From awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us Tue Jan 25 13:47:37 2000
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From: "Wiediger, Alison" <awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us>
To: 'market farming' <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: RE: grape tomatoes
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:33:27 -0600
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Try Totally Tomatoes, Johnny's Selected Seeds, Territorial

Alison Wiediger
Au Naturel Farm
Smiths Grove, KY

> ----------
> From: 	Hook Family[SMTP:guldann@ix.netcom.com]
> Reply To: 	market farming
> Sent: 	Tuesday, January 25, 2000 3:43 PM
> To: 	market farming
> Subject: 	grape tomatoes
> 
> Keeping with the tomato theme, can anyone tell me a seed source for grape
> tomatoes?  Johnny's sells the currants, which I had at a restaurant and
> all
> I can say is they are pretty :).  Beth
> 
> 
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as:
> awiediger@hart.k12.ky.us
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
> 

From whistle@halcyon.com Tue Jan 25 13:49:50 2000
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Subject: Re: grape tomatoes
From: "Shelley Pasco" <whistle@halcyon.com>
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Try Totally Tomatoes--I just ordered some today. (803) 663-0016.
Shelley

----------
>From: "Hook Family" <guldann@ix.netcom.com>
>To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
>Subject: grape tomatoes
>Date: Tue, Jan 25, 2000, 1:43 PM
>

> Keeping with the tomato theme, can anyone tell me a seed source for grape
> tomatoes?  Johnny's sells the currants, which I had at a restaurant and all
> I can say is they are pretty :).  Beth
>
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: whistle@halcyon.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
> 

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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:53:42 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: CSA year round production for Western WA


Douglas,

An excellent book for yur consideration is Winter Gardening in the
Maaritime Northwest: Cool season crops for the year-round gardener by Binda
Colebrook published by Sasquatch Books out of Seattle.  I got my copy
through Territorial Seed Company.  They're on the web at
http://www.territorial-seed.com

You may also want to get a copy of Growing Across the Seasons:  A Season
and Harvest Extension Guide for the Small-Acreage Farmer published by UC
cooperative Extension in Placer and Nevada counties in northern California
(foothills)  While this has some are specific data, there are good sections
on Market diversification, Mulches, Row Covers, Cloches, Cold Frames and
Greenhouses, and budgetary decision making.
It's available through Placer UCCE for $11.58 which includes taxes and
shipping.  To order a copy, send a check made payable to UC Regents to UCCE
Placer 11477 E  Avenue, Auburn, CA 95603.




Marcie


Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



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From: "Bill Shoemaker" <wshoemak@inil.com>
To: <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Hi-Tunnels
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:17:59 -0600
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I'm a new subscriber who is not a market farmer but who works with them =
in research and extension in northern Illinois. I'm currently working =
with Hi-Tunnels for vegetable production and wonder if there is anyone =
on the list who is successfully using Hi-Tunnels in the western Great =
Lakes region. You're welcome to contact me privately or to post a =
response but my interest is in knowing whether or not there is a =
community of growers in this region using Hi-Tunnels that I'm unaware =
of. I'd like to hear about your experiences and concerns. Thanks.

Bill Shoemaker
Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
Univ of Illinois - St Charles Hort Research Center

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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>I'm a new subscriber who is not a market =
farmer but who=20
works with them in research and extension in northern Illinois. I'm =
currently=20
working with Hi-Tunnels for vegetable production and wonder if there is =
anyone=20
on the list who is successfully using Hi-Tunnels in the western Great =
Lakes=20
region. You're welcome to contact me privately or to post a response but =
my=20
interest is in knowing whether or not there is a community of growers in =
this=20
region using Hi-Tunnels that I'm unaware of. I'd like to hear about your =

experiences and concerns. Thanks.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>Bill Shoemaker<BR>Sr Research Specialist, =
Food=20
Crops<BR>Univ of Illinois - St Charles Hort Research=20
Center</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From WebbK@missouri.edu Tue Jan 25 15:56:48 2000
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From: "Webb, Kevin" <WebbK@missouri.edu>
To: 'market farming' <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: RE: CSA year round production for Western WA
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:56:56 -0600
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You might also try: Solar Gardening : Growing Vegetables Year-Round the
American Intensive Way by Leandre Poisson. You can check it out on amazon
at:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0930031695/o/qid=948833427/sr=8-1/102
-9782825-5529622

Kevin

     Kevin Webb
     Food Circles Networking Project
     Department of Rural Sociology
     University of Missouri-Columbia
     105 Sociology
     Columbia, MO  65211
     (573) 882-3776
     [573] 882=1473 (fax)
     webbk@missouri.edu
     On the web at: http://www.foodcircles.missouri.edu


-----Original Message-----
From: Marcie Rosenzweig [mailto:fullcircle@jps.net]
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 1:54 PM
To: market farming
Subject: Re: CSA year round production for Western WA


Douglas,

An excellent book for yur consideration is Winter Gardening in the
Maaritime Northwest: Cool season crops for the year-round gardener by Binda
Colebrook published by Sasquatch Books out of Seattle.  I got my copy
through Territorial Seed Company.  They're on the web at
http://www.territorial-seed.com

You may also want to get a copy of Growing Across the Seasons:  A Season
and Harvest Extension Guide for the Small-Acreage Farmer published by UC
cooperative Extension in Placer and Nevada counties in northern California
(foothills)  While this has some are specific data, there are good sections
on Market diversification, Mulches, Row Covers, Cloches, Cold Frames and
Greenhouses, and budgetary decision making.
It's available through Placer UCCE for $11.58 which includes taxes and
shipping.  To order a copy, send a check made payable to UC Regents to UCCE
Placer 11477 E  Avenue, Auburn, CA 95603.




Marcie


Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



---
You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: WebbK@missouri.edu
To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')

From lh@pressroom.com Tue Jan 25 16:13:18 2000
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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:11:27 -0500
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: Leigh Hauter <lh@pressroom.com>
Subject: Tomatoes


Interesting  -
just drove the truck out through the 15 inches of new snow and there in the
mailbox was a Johnny's newsletter about tomatoes with an article on
stringing tomatoes.

The newsletter also pushed red plastic. I was interested in anyone's
experience with red plastic.  I used it last year (my supplier sells it for
a lot cheaper than Johnny's)) and got the earliest tomatoes ever ( July 4th
tomatoes around here is considered a true sign of great farming practices
and a lot of luck). We had tomatoes by the last week of June.

However, our tomatoes also stopped growing two weeks early.  We didn't grow
all tomatoes through the red stuff, but it seems they were always close
enough to affect the production.

Anyone else have any experience with red plastic.  I intend to use it again
on my early tomatoes, but I intend to grow my later tomatoes on another
part of the farm, far away from red plastic.

From bg006@scn.org Tue Jan 25 16:17:29 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:17:23
Subject: Re: CSA year round production for Western WA
To: market-farming
From: bg006@scn.org


Thanks Marcie! I have Binda Colebrooks book and Poisson's
"Solar Gardening" (Thanks Kevin) as well. The Co-op guide sounds
interesting.

From brbf@compulinx-net.net Tue Jan 25 17:40:58 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 17:40:47
Subject: Re: Tomato Support?
To: market-farming
From: "Lyn Chapis" <brbf@compulinx-net.net>


HOG PANELS WERE MENTIONED... THEY MAKE GREAT SUPPORTS FOR COMPOST PILES.  
WE PLACE SEVERAL AROUND OUR SEVEN ACRES OF PRODUCE.  KEEP THEM HANDY.

IT DOES TAKE TWO PEOPLE TO FORM A CIRCLE AND SECURE WITH WIRE.

From flowers@rt66.com Tue Jan 25 18:22:14 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: Tomatoes



>
>The newsletter also pushed red plastic. I was interested in anyone's
>experience with red plastic. 

 
we've used a bit on peppers as well as tomatoes and had similar experience
with significant yield increase but problems with weeds especially nut grass
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow



From flowers@rt66.com Tue Jan 25 18:23:59 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: Tomatoes


and your supplier is ?? always looking for a better price... i think marvel
plastic in pa has a pretty good price (7175641478)

martin

>Interesting  -
>just drove the truck out through the 15 inches of new snow and there in the
>mailbox was a Johnny's newsletter about tomatoes with an article on
>stringing tomatoes.
>
>The newsletter also pushed red plastic. I was interested in anyone's
>experience with red plastic.  I used it last year (my supplier sells it for
>a lot cheaper than Johnny's)) and got the earliest tomatoes ever ( July 4th
>tomatoes around here is considered a true sign of great farming practices
>and a lot of luck). We had tomatoes by the last week of June.
>
>However, our tomatoes also stopped growing two weeks early.  We didn't grow
>all tomatoes through the red stuff, but it seems they were always close
>enough to affect the production.
>
>Anyone else have any experience with red plastic.  I intend to use it again
>on my early tomatoes, but I intend to grow my later tomatoes on another
>part of the farm, far away from red plastic.
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: flowers@rt66.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>
>
>
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow



From lh@pressroom.com Tue Jan 25 18:29:35 2000
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In-Reply-To:
 <LYR98980-33565-2000.01.25-18.23.59--lh#pressroom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu
 >
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:29:48 -0500
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Leigh Hauter <lh@pressroom.com>
Subject: Re: Tomatoes


Rain-flo irrigation in PA
717-445-6976

From lh@pressroom.com Tue Jan 25 18:31:37 2000
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In-Reply-To:
 <LYR98980-33564-2000.01.25-18.22.13--lh#pressroom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu
 >
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:31:55 -0500
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Leigh Hauter <lh@pressroom.com>
Subject: Re: Tomatoes


we had a number of weeds that didn't think the red plastic was a weed
barrier and behaved accordingly.

From gutierrez-lagatta@home.com Tue Jan 25 20:04:20 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 20:4:15
Subject: Introductions
To: market-farming
From: "Adriana Gutierrez" <gutierrez-lagatta@home.com>


I'd like to introduce myself.  As a hydroponic greenhouse grower, I'm a bit 
of an odd-duck in this crowd but my products, markets, philosophies and 
information needs are consistent with those of this group.  I grow salad 
mix, gourmet greens and herbs in a 3,000 square foot greenhouse.  I sell 
all of my production to 6 upscale restaurants in Sarasota, Florida.  
February 6 will be my first anniversary in business and it has been an 
incredible year of learning.  Thanks to the organizers for setting up this 
forum.

From pike@always-online.com Tue Jan 25 20:38:18 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-33549-2000.01.25-15.56.45--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: CSA year round production for Western WA
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----- Original Message -----
From: Webb, Kevin <WebbK@missouri.edu>

> You might also try: Solar Gardening : Growing Vegetables Year-Round the
> American Intensive Way by Leandre Poisson. You can check it out on amazon

I just checked this out of the library-thank goodness-I'd be bored silly
with all this snow & nothing to do, well, I could go mop the floor, finish
the laundry, organize a closet, NOT!

I'd really like to experiment with the cones they build, but can't locate
the fiberglass sheets.  All I can find are the corrugated ones, which cannot
be rolled into a cone.

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina




From london@metalab.unc.edu Wed Jan 26 02:23:31 2000
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Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 02:23:48 -0500 (EST)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@metalab.unc.edu>
X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Greenhouse/coldframe/cloche glazing. WAS:Re: CSA year round production
 for Western WA
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On Tue, 25 Jan 2000, Elizabeth Pike wrote:

> > You might also try: Solar Gardening : Growing Vegetables Year-Round the
> > American Intensive Way by Leandre Poisson. You can check it out on amazon

I have this book, excellent.

> I just checked this out of the library-thank goodness-I'd be bored silly
> with all this snow & nothing to do, well, I could go mop the floor, finish
> the laundry, organize a closet, NOT!

Help us build a new market farming resources website. I've got a new URL
http://metalab.unc.edu/dirtfarm, even an email ID to connect to a webforum
for file descriptions alongside a file (pix, sound/document
upload/view/download area: dirtfarmer@metalab.unc.edu; also:
market-gardening@metalab.unc.edu. We need FAQs, pix, info and
links/descriptions of related websites, recommended reading lists,
tool/equipmen/materialst sourcelists.
 
> I'd really like to experiment with the cones they build, but can't locate
> the fiberglass sheets.  All I can find are the corrugated ones, which cannot
> be rolled into a cone.

I was just going to post about greenhouse glazing options, sources,
construction methods. Got curious about polycarbonate and did a websearch.
It seems that polycarbonate is better to use than fiberglass; better UV
and weather protection. Comes in sheets of different thicknesses as well
as double and triple wall greenhouse glazing panels. 
Here are the two first URL's I ran across:

This one has an outlet in Asheville NC
SPS Corporation
http://www.spscorp.com
(look for dealers who sell retail)
Nexus Greenhouses Systems
204 Cross Street
Darlington, SC 29532
1-803-395-1509
Nexus Greenhouses Systems
#7 Lawterdale Circle
Asheville, NC 28804
1-704-253-9006

This one seems to do online mail order via Thomas Register website.
United States Plastic Corporation
 1-800-809-4217 
 United States Plastic Corp.
 1390 Neubrecht Road, Lima, Ohio 45801
 Phone: 1-800-809-4217
 Fax: 1-800-854-5498 
http://www.thomasregister.com/olc/usplastic/sheet29.htm

Be sure to watch Norm Abrams "New Yankee Workshop"
on PBS TV this coming Saturday/Sunday
He will be constructing a medium sized freestanding
greenhouse glazed with flat polycarbonate sheets

You'll probably learn a lot about working with
polycarbonate in this particular show.

LL

Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu




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Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 03:03:37 -0500 (EST)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@metalab.unc.edu>
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To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Announcing a new Community Supported Agriculture Mailing List (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 02:53:48 -0500 (EST)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@metalab.unc.edu>
To: CSA-L@prairienet.org
Subject: Announcing a new Community Supported Agriculture Mailing List


On something of a lark I went ahead and created another CSA mailing list
which I hope will prove to be useful to you all. If not I can always
delete it. I am willing to be owner of this list until any of you,
Anna Barnes, Sarah, John, anyone else let me know that you want to do it
alone or share this easy job with co-owner(s). Just send me email and I
will configure new owner(s) for the list. If you want to keep the list
and have me run it I will do so though all I have time to do
is technical maintenance. Descriptive and promotional documents for CSA
will have to be written by someone else and emailed to me to add to the
list website. I'd also be willing to build an accompanying website for the
list containing info, links and all the documentation on the list. CSA
runs on MetaLab's Lyris server the same location and protocols as the new
market-farming list of Marcie's.

Feel free to subscribe and make the best use possible of CSA. It is
extremely easy to use and has many nice features and user options.
Subscribing and unsubscribing is uncomplicated and partly automated.

Enjoy,

Lawrence
-

Welcome to the Community Supported Agriculture e-mail 
list and discussion group: csa@franklin.oit.unc.edu

FAQ

Frequently Asked Questions about the 
Community Supported Agriculture discussion group


1. WHAT IS Community Supported Agriculture?

Name of list: csa
Posting address for list: csa@franklin.oit.unc.edu

csa@franklin.oit.unc.edu is a mailing list/newsgroup/webforum
for networking among farmers involved in operating a CSA


The listowners are:

(temporary owner)
Lawrence F. London, Jr., 
Venaura Farm,
lflondon@mindspring.com

*******************************************************

2. HOW DO I SUBSCRIBE TO CSA?

Self-subscribe throuth the Web by accessing the website at
http://franklin.oit.unc.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=csa.


Subscribing & unsubscribing to csa 
using email instead of the Web interface: 

In case you do not have Web access or for any reason need to use the email
interface, here are some key commands;

In all cases, the default server address is: lyris@franklin.oit.unc.edu

This is the email address to send commands to change the status of your
account. Other addresses are shown where appropriate. Note that commands
may be placed in either the subject line or in the body of the
message. For
some actions you have several choices of commands and you may use the one
that suits your preferred mode.

SUBSCRIBING:
subscribe csa
subscribe csa your_name
join csa
join csa your_name
alternate address: join-csa@franklin.oit.unc.edu

UNSUBSCRIBING:
unsubscribe csa
leave csa
alternate address: leave-csa@franklin.oit.unc.edu

SETTING MEMBERSHIP TO DIGEST MODE:
set csa digest

SETTING MEMBERSHIP TO INDEX MODE:
set csa index

SETTING MEMBERSHIP TO DISCUSSION MODE:
set csa mail

TEMPORARILY SUSPENDING MAIL FROM THE LIST: set csa nomail
RESUMING MAIL FROM THE LIST:
set csa mail
set csa digest
set csa index

You may subscribe as an e-mail list, a digest of that list or just gain
access to the usegroup which gives you access to posts from the web but
doesn't deliver them to your mailbox. If you lack web access, or the
e-mail
commands don't seem to work, e-mail me at lflondon@mindspring.com
or london@metalab.unc.edu with your email address and (optional)
full name, and I'll sign you up.


*******************************************************

3. HOW DO I UNSUBSCRIBE TO CSA?

At the end of every post to this list there is text at the bottom of the
page with automated unsubscription info and procedure. Here is a sample
from a typical post:

You are currently subscribed to csa as: <your email address>
To unsubscribe send a blank email to
leave-csa-<user number>@franklin.oit.unc.edu

OR Self-unsubscribe by accessing the website at
http://franklin.oit.unc.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=csa.

If you lack web access, or the instructions don't work for you, e-mail me
with your full name and email address, and I'll unsubscribe you.
PLEASE DO NOT SEND UNSUBSCRIBE MESSAGES TO THE ENTIRE LIST.


*******************************************************
5. DO I HAVE TO SUBSCRIBE TO READ THE POSTS?

You  can read the posts using the Web interface as well as the News
interface without being a subscriber to the list.

To read using the Web interface go to:

http://franklin.oit.unc.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=csa and click
on the button that says "Visit csa without joining"

To read using the News interface use the following methods:

Method 1 using your news reader:
-
Access via Usenet news can be had by adding this news server name to your
list of news servers in your news reader, or make it your default server:

franklin.oit.unc.edu

Connect to the franklin.oit.unc.edu news server, download the list of
available newsgroups and subscribe to csa. Subscribing to the csa
newsgroup 
does not make you a subscriber to the list. You can post to the newsgroup 
only if you are a list subscriber; otherwise you can read the newsgroup.

Method 2 using your Web browser [+ news reader]: -
go to this URL (i.e. type this URL into the dialog box in your web
browser)
news://franklin.oit.unc.edu (news:// is part of a URL just like ftp:// and
http://) and download the list of available newsgroups and subscribe to 
csa.

or go to this URL:
news://franklin.oit.unc.edu/csa for reading (and/or posting if
you're a list subscriber)

*******************************************************

5. HOW DO I POST TO Community Supported Agriculture?

Send your messages to:
csa@franklin.oit.unc.edu

You have to be a list subscriber to post to csa using either the
Email, Web or News interface. You can, however read all posts, including
the archives, as a non-subscriber.

In order to post to csa, you must be subscribed 
to the list AND send your message from the email account that you used to 
subscribe to the list. In other  words, if you have several e-mail
accounts 
or aliases, you need to send e-mail from the account you used to
subscribed.

IMPORTANT NOTE: All posts to csa are permanently archived.  This
allows folks to go back and search for specific information in a thread.
It also means your name is archived with your post.  If this is a problem
for you, it's best you not use this list.

*******************************************************

6. WHERE CAN I FIND ARCHIVES OF POSTINGS TO MARKET FARMING?

On the world wide web at:
http://franklin.oit.unc.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=csa

*******************************************************

8. WHAT ARE SOME OTHER WEBSITES OR DISCUSSION GROUPS THAT MIGHT BE OF
INTEREST

SANET-MG Sponsored the Sustainable Agriculture Network from the USDA, this
list is international in scope. It is largely populated by academics and
the discussions are frequently philosophical and/or policy oriented.
However, farmers frequently lurk here and research on any given topic is
available for the asking. Archives and subscription information can be
found at http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail

BD-L Biodynamic farming list. The philosophy and practice of biodynamics
http://www.biodynamics.com/ gets you to the website and subscription to
the
list. BD CSAs are listed here.

Lawrence London's websites and forums at MetaLab:
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden
http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture

There's a special document with info on accessing all these lists in a
file
at this URL: http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/forumdoc.txt

Lists of interest at the MetaLab Lyris server include:

csa
soil-quality
seed-saving
community-foodsystems
herb 
market-farming
permaculture
permaculture-calendar

The Sustainable Farming Connection
Developed and maintained by Craig Cramer formerly editor of The New Farm.
This site is a cornucopia of resources and topics. Sustainable techniques
for farms of all sizes and crops.
http://sunsite.unc.edu/farming-connection/

ATTRA - Appropriate Technology Transfer to Rural Areas One of the best
appropriate scale and alternative crop sites on the web. Loaded with
publications and links. This is THE site for posting apprenticeship and
internship opportunities www.ATTRA.org

IF YOU GARDEN FOR PLEASURE, LANDSCAPE, AND EXPERIMENTATION the following
sites may be better suited to your needs

http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden 
Rodale Press Gardening http://www.rodalepress.com./gardening.htm
National Gardening Association www.garden.org

IF YOU HOMESTEAD OR FARM PRIMARILY AS A LIFESTYLE CHOICE AND GROW FOOD
primarily to feed your own family, the following site may be better suited
to your needs

http://www.homestead.org

*******************************************************
8. OTHER RESOURCES

GROWING FOR MARKET is a monthly newsletter that has articles by and about
market farmers. Good ideas and honest discussion abound. Subscriptions are
$30/year. GFM, Fairplain Publications, P.O. Box 3747, Lawrence, KS 66046;
Tel 800-307-8949/fax: 913.841.2559. growing4market@earthlink.net

THE COMMUNITY FARM A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture Edited and
produced by Jim Sluyter and Jo Meller. Quarterly publication comes out in
February, May, August and November. $20 US TCM 3480 Potter Rd. Bear Lake,
MI 49614 (616) 889-3216 fsfarm@mufn.org

*******************************************************

9. WHERE CAN THE COMMUNITY SUPPORTED AGRICULTURE MAILING LIST FAQ BE
FOUND?

The FAQ will be sent to you automatically to indicate 
that you have subscribed successfully 

OR you may read it (csa.faq) at:
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/documents/csa.faq

OR have it sent to you by email by sending email to:
lyris@franklin.oit.unc.edu
with the message text or subject line containing:
get csa csa-list.faq

*******************************************************

Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu



From pike@always-online.com Wed Jan 26 09:08:31 2000
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  (SMTPD32-6.00) id AF2B22940258; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:05:31 -0500
Message-ID: <000801bf6807$0b652120$04000003@default>
From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: <gutierrez-lagatta@home.com>,
	"market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Produce pricing from garden web
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:10:02 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF67DD.2126FDA0"
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF67DD.2126FDA0
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

  This is in response to a question asked on the garden web about =
produce pricing.  Thought y'all might be interested:

  You can call your area's big produce wholesaler's to get a product =
update & price list. This gives you an idea what your chefs, other =
restaurants, & grocery stores are paying as well as what to expect on =
the general produce market in upcoming weeks. These updates give lots of =
info on weather & pest problems, & crop conditions occurring in =
California, Florida & other main growing areas. Of course you don't want =
to compete with these prices, who can? But it gives you time to plan to =
take advantage of their misfortune. Here is an example from February, =
1999. An update on lettuce said that that crop had suffered frost & wind =
damage. The update on potatoes stated due to a bumper crop there were =
lots to store. So I knew to start lettuce, & not plant as many potatoes. =
I also found how many are in a case of whatever & how many bunches are =
considered a case. I was also surprised to see that just 5 lbs of baby =
squash wholesaled for $27-that's $5.40 lb!! I upped my price when I saw =
that!!!! This info may not give you enough time to plant & grow =
something, but what you have can be priced accordingly.=20
  I just find it very interesting & educating. You will understand more =
of where your chef is coming from when he discusses price, quality, etc. =
He may even be willing to give you a price list from his own suppliers.

How to get these lists?  Just say you're interested in wholesale produce =
prices.  I told them I was a local market gardener & they put me on =
their mailing list-they KNOW I'm not their competition, can't produce on =
that quantity.  If they won't do it, have a chef friend or restaurant =
manager do it for you.  Prices might fluctuate daily, but restaurants & =
grocery stores order by the week, so the updates are issued by the week. =
 Most any produce wholesaler should have this update/newsletter, etc.  =
The one I use is Foster-Caviness, don't know if they're nationwide.=20

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina


------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF67DD.2126FDA0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3401" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV>This is in response to a question asked on the garden web about =
produce=20
  pricing.&nbsp; Thought y'all&nbsp;might be interested:</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>You can call your area's big produce wholesaler's to get a =
product update=20
  &amp; price list. This gives you an idea what your chefs, other =
restaurants,=20
  &amp; grocery stores are paying as well as what to expect on the =
general=20
  produce market in upcoming weeks. These updates give lots of info on =
weather=20
  &amp; pest problems, &amp; crop conditions occurring in California, =
Florida=20
  &amp; other main growing areas. Of course you don't want to compete =
with these=20
  prices, who can? But it gives you time to plan to take advantage of =
their=20
  misfortune. Here is an example from February, 1999. An update on =
lettuce said=20
  that that crop had suffered frost &amp; wind damage. The update on =
potatoes=20
  stated due to a bumper crop there were lots to store. So I knew to =
start=20
  lettuce, &amp; not plant as many potatoes. I also found how many are =
in a case=20
  of whatever &amp; how many bunches are considered a case. I was also =
surprised=20
  to see that just 5 lbs of baby squash wholesaled for $27-that's $5.40 =
lb!! I=20
  upped my price when I saw that!!!! This info may not give you enough =
time to=20
  plant &amp; grow something, but what you have can be priced =
accordingly.=20
</DIV>
  <P>I just find it very interesting &amp; educating. You will =
understand more=20
  of where your chef is coming from when he discusses price, quality, =
etc. He=20
  may even be willing to give you a price list from his own=20
suppliers.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>How to get these lists?&nbsp; Just say you're interested in =
wholesale=20
produce prices.&nbsp; I told them I was a local market gardener &amp; =
they put=20
me on their mailing list-they KNOW I'm not their competition, can't =
produce on=20
that quantity.&nbsp; If they won't do it, have a chef friend or =
restaurant=20
manager do it for you.&nbsp; Prices might fluctuate daily, but =
restaurants &amp;=20
grocery stores order by the week, so the updates are issued by the =
week.&nbsp;=20
Most any produce wholesaler should have this update/newsletter, =
etc.&nbsp; The=20
one I use is Foster-Caviness, don't know if they're nationwide. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Liz Pike<BR>Morningstar Gardens<BR>Pollocksville, North=20
Carolina<BR></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF67DD.2126FDA0--


From aquaponics@hotmail.com Wed Jan 26 10:03:52 2000
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	Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:04:12 PST
X-Originating-IP: [146.226.164.96]
From: "Charlie Shultz" <aquaponics@hotmail.com>
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Workshop Announcement (Aquaponics/Aquaculture)
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:04:12 PST
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed



FYI, the University of the Virgin Islands (St. Croix) has announced the 2nd 
Annual Aquaponics and Tilapia Aquaculture Workshop this summer.  Dates are 
June 25-July 1.  Additional information can be viewed at:

http://rps.uvi.edu/AES/Aquaculture/UVIShortCourse.html

Charlie Shultz
Water Quality Analyst, UVI
St. Croix, USVI
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From flowers@rt66.com Wed Jan 26 10:49:30 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: CSA year round production for Western WA


i'e been considering playing with the saran wrap product used for pallet
wraping as a short term 'glazing' for cold frame/cloche..perhaps even a hoop
house ...any one out there tried this ??

martin>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Webb, Kevin <WebbK@missouri.edu>
>
>> You might also try: Solar Gardening : Growing Vegetables Year-Round the
>> American Intensive Way by Leandre Poisson. You can check it out on amazon
>
>I just checked this out of the library-thank goodness-I'd be bored silly
>with all this snow & nothing to do, well, I could go mop the floor, finish
>the laundry, organize a closet, NOT!
>
>I'd really like to experiment with the cones they build, but can't locate
>the fiberglass sheets.  All I can find are the corrugated ones, which cannot
>be rolled into a cone.
>
>Liz Pike
>Morningstar Gardens
>Pollocksville, North Carolina
>
>
>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: flowers@rt66.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>
>
>
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow



From fullcircle@jps.net Wed Jan 26 11:13:57 2000
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 du>
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Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:13:19 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Glazing - coldframes & cloches


Martin asks

>i'e been considering playing with the saran wrap product used for pallet
>wraping as a short term 'glazing' for cold frame/cloche..perhaps even a hoo=
p
>house ...any one out there tried this ??


I haven't tried this and, actually wouldn't.  Saran Wrap(tm) or any other
kitchen film has virtually no UV stability adn would go to shreds or powder
in rather quick order, maybe even less than 30 days, then you have the
problem of how to get this hydrocarbon based contamination out of your
field.

I have used plastic 1 and 2.5 gallon water bottles with the bottoms cut out
as cloches.  I punch a hole in the bottom and anchor it with irrigation
stakes against the wind.  I punch a hole in the cap, and tie it with a
string to the jug.  Cap them at night to reduce heat loss, take it off
about 10am to ventolate.  Doesn't work against freezes.  Ok against light,
quick frost.

I've also use contractor's plastic to wrap field fence tomato, pepper and
eggplant cages in early spring, or for an unforseen frost.  This stuff will
hold up in the sun for about a year, so it comes out of the field intact
and can be recycled.

One caution, peppers in particular are more sensitive to cold feet than
ambient air temps.  If the soil is not at least 55=B0F at root depth, don't
set them out.  They will pout and may not catch up all season.  If you want
to test this for yourself set one out earlier than the rest and see what
happens.   Everyone should have a good soil thermometer, but if you don't
try the sit test.  If you can sit comfortably on bare soil at about 10am
for at least 15 minutes it's probably ok.  If you feel like your fanny is
freezing off, your peppers won't be happy.

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
=46ull Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From farmsted@cfw.com Wed Jan 26 12:14:57 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:14:51
Subject: farmers mkt workshop
To: market-farming
From: "Jeff Ishee" <farmsted@cfw.com>


  Anyone in the Mid-Atlantic region involved in agricultural direct
marketing will certainly want to check out the Virginia / DC Farmers'
Market Workshop. Scheduled for March 18, 2000 in the beautiful
Shenandoah Valley of Virginia, the event is being co-sponsored by VA
Cooperative Extension, the VA Farmers Direct Marketing Association, and
the Staunton/Augusta Farmers' Market.
  A new website has just been posted at:

http://www.marketfarm.homestead.com/home.html

  Featured speakers include: Andy Lee, Joel Salatin, Jeff Ishee, Ann
Yonkers, Bernadine Prince, Emmitt Snead, Harry Crosby, Matt Cauley, and
many others.
  Virginia Commissioner of Agriculture Carlton Courter will address the
workshop on the importance of public farmers' markets to small farm
operations.
  For more information, contact:
        VA / DC Farmers' Market Workshop
        Registration Coordinator
        P.O. Box 52
        Middlebrook, VA 24459
        (540) 886-9394
        farmsted@cfw.com


From glenn@smallfarms.com Wed Jan 26 14:28:58 2000
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: CSA year round production for Western WA
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Hey Martin:

I tried using the shrink wrap on a temporary hoop structure.  There were
difficulties in making seals on the frames and getting the shrink wrap
to seal to itself in unsupported areas.  Wind was a major factor. 
Consider trying this in a protected area with only light winds.

Marcie is right in that clean up may be a mess with fragments of shrink
wrap falling apart on you as attempt to pick it up.  So do repairs and
clean up long before UV deterioration begins.

Keep me/us posted on this, will you?

glenn
Buy from the Farmer
http://www.smallfarms.com
>
> i'e been considering playing with the saran wrap product used for pallet
> wraping as a short term 'glazing' for cold frame/cloche..perhaps even a hoop
> house ...any one out there tried this ??

> martin>

From maryspiral@juno.com Wed Jan 26 16:35:57 2000
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To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:31:50 -0600
Subject: Share box size
Message-ID: <20000126.163218.-437097.2.maryspiral@juno.com>
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From: Mary Hoelterhoff <maryspiral@juno.com>


I'd like to get some feedback on what size box, is being used for CSA
shares.

I use a 1 1/9 bu waxed vegetable box......

also let me know what size is used for different types of shares, i.e.
family, full, half, etc.

Thanks, 



Mary Hoelterhoff
Blue Skink Farm CSA
Monticello, KY

________________________________________________________________
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From ehendrsn@redsuspenders.com Wed Jan 26 20:28:29 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Henderson" <ehendrsn@redsuspenders.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Share box size
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:56:30 -0500
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Our CSA, Genesee Valley Organic CSA, does not use a box.  The food is set
out on tables and the members select their own food and place it in their
own containers.
Elizabeth
-----Original Message-----
From: Mary Hoelterhoff <maryspiral@juno.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 4:37 PM
Subject: Share box size


>I'd like to get some feedback on what size box, is being used for CSA
>shares.
>
>I use a 1 1/9 bu waxed vegetable box......
>
>also let me know what size is used for different types of shares, i.e.
>family, full, half, etc.
>
>Thanks,
>
>
>
>Mary Hoelterhoff
>Blue Skink Farm CSA
>Monticello, KY
>
>________________________________________________________________
>YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
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From london@metalab.unc.edu Wed Jan 26 21:33:22 2000
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Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:33:36 -0500 (EST)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@metalab.unc.edu>
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To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu,
        csa-l@prairienet.org, permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Announcing the new Community Supported Agriculture mailing list.
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A Community Supported Agriculture mailing list has been started
countesy of UNC MetaLab's Lyris server. Please distribute this
announcement wherever appropriate. The market-farming list may also
be of interest to many of you; information about it, this list and other
agriculture and permaculture forums can be found at 
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden.

Lawrence London
CSA List owner

Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu

<><><>

Welcome to the Community Supported Agriculture e-mail 
list and discussion group: csa@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Community Supported Agriculture Mailing List List FAQ

Frequently Asked Questions about the 
Community Supported Agriculture discussion group


* WHAT IS Community Supported Agriculture?

Name of list: csa
Posting address for list: csa@franklin.oit.unc.edu

csa@franklin.oit.unc.edu is a mailing list/newsgroup/webforum
for networking among farmers involved in operating a CSA

The listowner is:

Lawrence London 
Venaura Farm
lflondon@mindspring.com
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden


* HOW DO I SUBSCRIBE TO CSA?

Self-subscribe throuth the Web by accessing the website at
http://franklin.oit.unc.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=csa.


Subscribing & unsubscribing to csa 
using email instead of the Web interface: 

In case you do not have Web access or for any reason need to use the email
interface, here are some key commands;

In all cases, the default server address is: lyris@franklin.oit.unc.edu

This is the email address to send commands to change the status of your
account. Other addresses are shown where appropriate. Note that commands
may be placed in either the subject line or in the body of the
message. For
some actions you have several choices of commands and you may use the one
that suits your preferred mode.

SUBSCRIBING:
subscribe csa
subscribe csa your_name
join csa
join csa your_name
alternate address: join-csa@franklin.oit.unc.edu

UNSUBSCRIBING:
unsubscribe csa
leave csa
alternate address: leave-csa@franklin.oit.unc.edu

SETTING MEMBERSHIP TO DIGEST MODE:
set csa digest

SETTING MEMBERSHIP TO INDEX MODE:
set csa index

SETTING MEMBERSHIP TO DISCUSSION MODE:
set csa mail

TEMPORARILY SUSPENDING MAIL FROM THE LIST: set csa nomail
RESUMING MAIL FROM THE LIST:
set csa mail
set csa digest
set csa index

You may subscribe as an e-mail list, a digest of that list or just gain
access to the usegroup which gives you access to posts from the web but
doesn't deliver them to your mailbox. If you lack web access, or the
e-mail
commands don't seem to work, e-mail me at lflondon@mindspring.com
or london@metalab.unc.edu with your email address and (optional)
full name, and I'll sign you up.


* HOW DO I UNSUBSCRIBE TO CSA?

At the end of every post to this list there is text at the bottom of the
page with automated unsubscription info and procedure. Here is a sample
from a typical post:

You are currently subscribed to csa as: <your email address>
To unsubscribe send a blank email to
leave-csa-<user number>@franklin.oit.unc.edu

OR Self-unsubscribe by accessing the website at
http://franklin.oit.unc.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=csa.

If you lack web access, or the instructions don't work for you, e-mail me
with your full name and email address, and I'll unsubscribe you.
PLEASE DO NOT SEND UNSUBSCRIBE MESSAGES TO THE ENTIRE LIST.


* DO I HAVE TO SUBSCRIBE TO READ THE POSTS?

You  can read the posts using the Web interface as well as the News
interface without being a subscriber to the list.

To read using the Web interface go to:

http://franklin.oit.unc.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=csa and click
on the button that says "Visit csa without joining"

To read using the News interface use the following methods:

Method 1 using your news reader:
-
Access via Usenet news can be had by adding this news server name to your
list of news servers in your news reader, or make it your default server:

franklin.oit.unc.edu

Connect to the franklin.oit.unc.edu news server, download the list of
available newsgroups and subscribe to csa. Subscribing to the csa
newsgroup 
does not make you a subscriber to the list. You can post to the newsgroup 
only if you are a list subscriber; otherwise you can read the newsgroup.

Method 2 using your Web browser [+ news reader]: 
-
go to this URL (i.e. type this URL into the dialog box in your web
browser)
news://franklin.oit.unc.edu (news:// is part of a URL just like ftp:// and
http://) and download the list of available newsgroups and subscribe to 
csa.

or go to this URL:
news://franklin.oit.unc.edu/csa for reading (and/or posting if
you're a list subscriber)


* HOW DO I POST TO Community Supported Agriculture?

Send your messages to:
csa@franklin.oit.unc.edu

You have to be a list subscriber to post to csa using either the
Email, Web or News interface. You can, however read all posts,
including the archives, as a non-subscriber.

In order to post to csa, you must be subscribed  to the list AND send your
message from the email account that you used to subscribe to the list. In
other  words, if you have several e-mail accounts or aliases, you need to
send e-mail from the account you used to subscribed.

IMPORTANT NOTE: All posts to csa are permanently archived.  This
allows folks to go back and search for specific information in a thread.
It also means your name is archived with your post.  If this is a problem
for you, it's best you not use this list.


*  WHERE CAN I FIND ARCHIVES OF POSTINGS TO CSA?

On the world wide web at:
http://franklin.oit.unc.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=csa


* WHAT ARE SOME OTHER WEBSITES OR DISCUSSION GROUPS 
  THAT MIGHT BE OF INTEREST

SANET-MG Sponsored by the Sustainable Agriculture Network at the USDA,
this list is international in scope. It is largely populated by academics
and the discussions are frequently philosophical and/or policy oriented.
However, farmers frequently lurk here and research on any given topic is
available for the asking. Archives and subscription information can be
found at http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail

BD-L Biodynamic farming list. The philosophy and practice of biodynamics
http://www.biodynamics.com/ gets you to the website and subscription to
the list. BD CSAs are listed here.

InterGarden at MetaLab (forums, links, information):
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden
http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture

There's a special document with info on accessing all these lists in a
file at this URL: http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/forumdoc.txt

Lists of interest at the MetaLab Lyris server include:

csa
soil-quality
seed-saving
community-foodsystems
herb 
market-farming
permaculture
permaculture-calendar

The Sustainable Farming Connection
Developed and maintained by Craig Cramer formerly editor of The New Farm.
This site is a cornucopia of resources and topics. Sustainable techniques
for farms of all sizes and crops.
http://sunsite.unc.edu/farming-connection/

ATTRA - Appropriate Technology Transfer to Rural Areas One of the best
appropriate scale and alternative crop sites on the web. Loaded with
publications and links. This is THE site for posting apprenticeship and
internship opportunities www.ATTRA.org

IF YOU GARDEN FOR PLEASURE, LANDSCAPE, AND EXPERIMENTATION the following
sites may be better suited to your needs

http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden 
Rodale Press Gardening http://www.rodalepress.com./gardening.htm
National Gardening Association www.garden.org

IF YOU HOMESTEAD OR FARM PRIMARILY AS A LIFESTYLE CHOICE AND GROW FOOD
primarily to feed your own family, the following site may be better suited
to your needs

http://www.homestead.org

* OTHER RESOURCES

GROWING FOR MARKET is a monthly newsletter that has articles by and about
market farmers. Good ideas and honest discussion abound. Subscriptions are
$30/year. GFM, Fairplain Publications, P.O. Box 3747, Lawrence, KS 66046;
Tel 800-307-8949/fax: 913.841.2559. growing4market@earthlink.net

THE COMMUNITY FARM A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture Edited and
produced by Jim Sluyter and Jo Meller. Quarterly publication comes out in
February, May, August and November. $20 US TCM 3480 Potter Rd. Bear Lake,
MI 49614 (616) 889-3216 fsfarm@mufn.org


* WHERE CAN THE COMMUNITY SUPPORTED AGRICULTURE MAILING
  LIST FAQ BE FOUND?

The FAQ will be sent to you automatically to indicate 
that you have subscribed successfully 

OR you may read it (csa.faq) at:
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/documents/csa.faq

OR have it sent to you by email by sending email to:
lyris@franklin.oit.unc.edu
with the message text or subject line containing:
get csa csa-list.faq

<><><>

Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu



From klokeid@victoria.tc.ca Thu Jan 27 01:00:57 2000
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 <LYR98948-33621-2000.01.26-02.23.31--klokeid#victoria.tc.ca@franklin.oit.u
 nc.edu>
References: 
 <LYR98852-33575-2000.01.25-20.38.17--london#metalab.unc.edu@franklin.oit.u
 nc.edu>
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Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:55:47 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: "Terry J. Klokeid" <klokeid@victoria.tc.ca>
Subject: Re: Greenhouse/coldframe/cloche glazing. WAS:Re: CSA year round
 production for Western WA


Lawrence F. London writes:
>I was just going to post about greenhouse glazing options, sources,
>construction methods.

I am interested to learn more about construction methods. More
specifically, about greenhouse construction using something like post and
beam -- I have lots of logs from the site I am clearing to build a couple
of greenhouses, and would like to use those for the structure.

I would use clear plastic as the covering, with no heating involved. These
greenhouses will be season extenders, not year-round operations. Total area
to cover is about 10 or 12 metres by 25 metres or more -- depedning on how
far I go with the clearing.

One advantage I see to post and beam is that I would be able to easily
attach small structures to the posts -- supports fro runner beans, for
example. I could also attach pollen barriers, to the posts to separate vars
of, say tomatoes that might be succeptible to crossing. I am growing for
seed and so have relatively  many varieties, each in relatively small
quantities.

The logs I have are mainly Douglas fir. Only a handful of cedars. .







Terry J. Klokeid, Ph.D.
Amblewood Organic Farm
126 Amblewood Drive, Fulford Harbour
Salt Spring Island BC V8K 1X2
Voice/Fax (250) 653-4099
email  amblewood@mail.com

"On a trouv=E9 en bonne politique, le secret de faire mourir de faim ceux
qui, en cultivant la terre, font vivre les autres." (Voltaire)




From gutierrez-lagatta@home.com Thu Jan 27 01:25:03 2000
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 01:30:29 -0500
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta <gutierrez-lagatta@home.com>
Organization: @Home Network
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Greenhouse/coldframe/cloche glazing. WAS:Re: CSA year round 
 production for Western WA
References: <LYR99039-33794-2000.01.27-01.00.56--gutierrez-lagatta#home.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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> I am interested to learn more about construction methods. More
> specifically, about greenhouse construction using something like post and
> beam -- I have lots of logs from the site I am clearing to build a couple
> of greenhouses, and would like to use those for the structure.

Lawrence,
Check out this site from Mississippi State University.  They have lots
of greenhouse plans available:

http://ext.msstate.edu/pubs/is941.htm

From klokeid@victoria.tc.ca Thu Jan 27 04:06:59 2000
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 <LYR98948-33795-2000.01.27-01.25.03--klokeid#victoria.tc.ca@franklin.oit.u
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References: 
 <LYR99039-33794-2000.01.27-01.00.56--gutierrez-lagatta#home.com@franklin.o
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 01:05:19 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: "Terry J. Klokeid" <klokeid@victoria.tc.ca>
Subject: Greenhouse design, was Re: Greenhouse/coldframe/cloche glazing


Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta write:
>Check out this site from Mississippi State University.  They have lots
>of greenhouse plans available:
>
>http://ext.msstate.edu/pubs/is941.htm

Thanks for the reference, it's a time-saver to get references like this.. A
search with Google turns up approx. 27,000 sites with greenhouse plans...

However, I am still hoping to find a post and beam design.
My timbers will be much more massive than the 2x materials that most plans
assume. That means that the problem of rotting away from humidity is much
less of a concern.






Terry J. Klokeid, Ph.D.
Amblewood Organic Farm
126 Amblewood Drive, Fulford Harbour
Salt Spring Island BC V8K 1X2
Voice/Fax (250) 653-4099
email  amblewood@mail.com

"On a trouv=E9 en bonne politique, le secret de faire mourir de faim ceux
qui, en cultivant la terre, font vivre les autres." (Voltaire)




From lh@pressroom.com Thu Jan 27 06:56:50 2000
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In-Reply-To:
 <LYR98980-33809-2000.01.27-04.06.59--lh#pressroom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu
 >
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 06:56:26 -0500
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Leigh Hauter <lh@pressroom.com>
Subject: Re: Greenhouse design, was Re: Greenhouse/coldframe/cloche glazing



>However, I am still hoping to find a post and beam design.
>My timbers will be much more massive than the 2x materials that most plans
>assume. That means that the problem of rotting away from humidity is much
>less of a concern.

Our greenhouse is similar to what you describe.  I planted 8 ft locust
posts since they seem to last forever (about 25 years as fence posts) on, I
think, 8 foot centers.  I used a little concrete to stabilize them in the
ground like I would a gate post.  Then I ran thinner logs as the beam,
nailing hem to the top of the posts.  For the plastic supports I used 10'
by 2" pvc pipe attaching one end to the beam with pipe clamps and bending
the other end down to another locust log on the ground 8 ft away.  I then
covered it with greenhouse plastic.  By using furring strips in between two
layers of plastic an airspace was created for better insulation.

It works just as well as a store bought greenhouse and was alot cheaper.
This green house is 40 ft long and is used as a season extender.  I'm in
northern Virginia.

From flowers@rt66.com Thu Jan 27 09:44:00 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: Glazing - coldframes & cloches:saran wrap


see your point ,,i thought so too but so far the samples we have in sun in
winter (at 7000 feet elevation at very high uv in put )are still stable and
flexible after 6 weeeks and counting will keep the list up dated=20

actually we were considering them for very short term use  ,perhaps only 3-4
weeks season extension as initial cloches much as sweet corn farmers use
clear plastic to enhance early germintion

no quite ready to do large scale trial yet :)  martin

>Martin asks
>
>>i'e been considering playing with the saran wrap product used for pallet
>>wraping as a short term 'glazing' for cold frame/cloche..perhaps even a=
 hoop
>>house ...any one out there tried this ??
>
>
>I haven't tried this and, actually wouldn't.  Saran Wrap(tm) or any other
>kitchen film has virtually no UV stability adn would go to shreds or powder
>in rather quick order, maybe even less than 30 days, then you have the
>problem of how to get this hydrocarbon based contamination out of your
>field.
>
>I have used plastic 1 and 2.5 gallon water bottles with the bottoms cut out
>as cloches.  I punch a hole in the bottom and anchor it with irrigation
>stakes against the wind.  I punch a hole in the cap, and tie it with a
>string to the jug.  Cap them at night to reduce heat loss, take it off
>about 10am to ventolate.  Doesn't work against freezes.  Ok against light,
>quick frost.
>
>I've also use contractor's plastic to wrap field fence tomato, pepper and
>eggplant cages in early spring, or for an unforseen frost.  This stuff will
>hold up in the sun for about a year, so it comes out of the field intact
>and can be recycled.
>
>One caution, peppers in particular are more sensitive to cold feet than
>ambient air temps.  If the soil is not at least 55=B0F at root depth, don't
>set them out.  They will pout and may not catch up all season.  If you want
>to test this for yourself set one out earlier than the rest and see what
>happens.   Everyone should have a good soil thermometer, but if you don't
>try the sit test.  If you can sit comfortably on bare soil at about 10am
>for at least 15 minutes it's probably ok.  If you feel like your fanny is
>freezing off, your peppers won't be happy.
>
>Marcie A. Rosenzweig
>Full Circle Organic Farm
>Auburn, CA
>
>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: flowers@rt66.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>
>
>
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow



From lh@pressroom.com Thu Jan 27 10:03:33 2000
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 >
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:03:11 -0500
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Leigh Hauter <lh@pressroom.com>
Subject: Re: Glazing - coldframes & cloches:saran wrap



>>I haven't tried this and, actually wouldn't.  Saran Wrap(tm) or any other
>>kitchen film has virtually no UV stability adn would go to shreds or powder
>>in rather quick order, maybe even less than 30 days, then you have the
>>problem of how to get this hydrocarbon based contamination out of your
>>field.

Test it, I bet it wouldn't last 2 or 3 days.  Regular construction plastic
starts to turn brittle in a week if left in the sun.

From pike@always-online.com Thu Jan 27 10:04:08 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: <organicgrowing@egroups.com>,
	"market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <a9.fde634.25c1b0da@aol.com>
Subject: Re: sunflowers
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:05:35 -0500
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As for types of sunflowers, we prefer pollenless varieties as regular
sunflowers drop alot of pollen to the chagrin of customers.  We get all our
seed from Liberty www.libertyseed.com   2 of our pollenless favorites are
Double Shine (double petaled, resembles a giant coreopsis) & Moonbright
(traditional brown disk, yellow petals).  Of the regular, pollen dropping
varieties, we like Autumn Beauty (6-8" heads) & Teddy Bear, which is as
Ericka stated, like a giant mum.  It's larger cousin is the Giant Sungold.
We also dry sunflowers (Valentine 6" heads) to use for fall & Christmas
crafts. We grow the traditional Large Grey Striped (bird seed variety!) for
the 10"-12" heads we use to dry, decorate & sell as bird feeders in the fall
& as Christmas gifts.

All of the above seed will grow to 6', but planting closer will yeild
shorter & earlier flowers.  When we plant large areas 1/4 acre, along the
edge where seed piles up, the flowers can be as small as 3", toward the
center 4'.  If given enough room, they will branch out to form smaller
flowers.  We use the smaller flowers in our regular garden bouquets.
Sunflowers are a hot market now & we're doubling the amount to plant this
year.  They were always the first to go of everything on our tables at the
farmer's market.

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina



From flowers@rt66.com Thu Jan 27 10:14:46 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: saran cloche


>>glenn thanks for the input 

we were considering using the saran wrap product short term as we are aware
of the uv deterioration problem 

we have used the 6 foot clear perforated poly for low tunnels but the main
problem with these ,if you are not using a preemergent herbicide ,is the
lack of weed control

i am trialing a moveable cloche made from concrete mesh reinforcement wire
5ft  wide covered with saran... when you need to weed you can lift one edge
of the frame and clip  it to a post placed at one edge 
after weeeding the cloche is then closed 
7-10 foot sections seem best.. 1 mil clear perforated plastic works well
enough but is a bit difficult to attach to the frame 

 but the saran is lower cost and for short term use we are finding its just
as effective ..just as long as you remove when still flexible  ....and it
sticks to it self so one can attach it around the frame and it adhears to it
self.
will advise futher trial results after we do a 300 foot row this spring 

martin






Hey Martin:
>
>I tried using the shrink wrap on a temporary hoop structure.  There were
>difficulties in making seals on the frames and getting the shrink wrap
>to seal to itself in unsupported areas.  Wind was a major factor. 
>Consider trying this in a protected area with only light winds.
>
>Marcie is right in that clean up may be a mess with fragments of shrink
>wrap falling apart on you as attempt to pick it up.  So do repairs and
>clean up long before UV deterioration begins.
>
>Keep me/us posted on this, will you?
>
>glenn
>Buy from the Farmer
>http://www.smallfarms.com
>>
>> i'e been considering playing with the saran wrap product used for pallet
>> wraping as a short term 'glazing' for cold frame/cloche..perhaps even a hoop
>> house ...any one out there tried this ??
>
>> martin>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: flowers@rt66.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>
>
>
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow



From fullcircle@jps.net Thu Jan 27 10:21:00 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Share box size


Mary and Liz

I'm forwarding your question and answer on CSA boxes to the two CSA lists,
they are actually a more appropriate forum for this question, and I'll
answer on those.  You can subscribe to one or both as follows:

CSa-l from prairienet.  This is the original, John just unsubscribed
everyone because of the bounce-backs form bad addresses and the
unsubscribes posted to the list.  FYI January and June bring huge
unsubscribe requests to all lists as students move on.

To subscribe send an e-mail to listproc@prairienet.org with subscribe CSA-L
and your first name and last name in the message body.  OR go to the
website at http://www.prairienet.org/pcsa/CSA-L/subscribing.html and fill
out the form.

The other list is the new MetaLab list started by Lawrence London whose
posts have appeared here.

To subscribe to that list send an e-mail to lyris@franklin.oit.unc.edu with
subscribe csa your_name in either the subject or message body, OR go to the
website at
http://franklin.oit.unc.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=csa.


Thanks

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From pike@always-online.com Thu Jan 27 10:23:57 2000
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Subject: Re: flowers
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:25:26 -0500
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>Any good ideas on actually transporting
> flower arrangements to the new farmer's mkt. we're joining this year? I'm
> wondering if dealing with keeping arrangements upright is worth the higher
> price I'll be getting.
> Linda
> Homestead Farms

A flower farming friend, and myself, transport our single stem flowers
(those varities we sell by the stem) in 5 gallon buckets.  They're
free/cheap & hold flowers upright.  To keep glads upright, I put in a
section of chicken wire rolled up (sometimes I cut it down to whatever
height I need for that particular variety), in the bucket.  This is
especially good for glads.  We fill the buckets with water once we get to
market, and set them on the floor or short shelves 6-10" off the floor.

I prearrange garden bouquets the night before, tie with jute & stick in
several large, antique coffee pots (cowboy style) that I've purchased over
the years.  People seem to like these informal arrangements.  I never bring
any home.  When they sell, I stick them in cellophane sleeves like florists
use.  My friend who sells all her flowers by the stem, semi-arranges as the
customer picks & chooses.  She also wraps using the preformed cellaphane
sleeves.  In between customers she makes up a few arrangements & displays in
vases.  Sometimes they sell, sometimes not.  People like picking & choosing,
whether it's flowers or veggies!

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina




From flowers@rt66.com Thu Jan 27 10:31:06 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: Glazing - coldframes & cloches:saran wrap


weve been testing 'pallet wrap ' for the past 6 weeks and so far, it is
still quite flexible and no loss of structure in our high uv climate at 7000
feet  at least under winter conditions.
 we certainly aware of its propensity to degrade quickly but so far so good
and we do intend to use it for very short term cloches in spring to gain a
few week advantage at minimal cost  

martin >
>>>I haven't tried this and, actually wouldn't.  Saran Wrap(tm) or any other
>>>kitchen film has virtually no UV stability adn would go to shreds or powder
>>>in rather quick order, maybe even less than 30 days, then you have the
>>>problem of how to get this hydrocarbon based contamination out of your
>>>field.
>
>Test it, I bet it wouldn't last 2 or 3 days.  Regular construction plastic
>starts to turn brittle in a week if left in the sun.
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: flowers@rt66.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>
>
>
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow



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To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 08:30:41 -0600
Subject: source of organic cottonseed
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From: Mary Hoelterhoff <maryspiral@juno.com>



A friend  of mine is looking for a source, for organic cottonseed.

 She's just needs a small amount.

I've looked in Fedco, Johnny's, Pinetree, ....and did find some in
Southern Exposure Seed Exchange ( not listed as organic)

Does anyone know of other sources?

Mary Hoelterhoff
Blue Skink Farm CSA
Monticello, KY

________________________________________________________________
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From flowers@rt66.com Thu Jan 27 11:03:58 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: transporting flower arrangements to the new farmer's mkt.


www.ascfg.org is the best source of info on flower growing/ selling that i
am aware of ....reasonable priced for a professional organization of cut
flower growers


consider transporting the arrangenents dry ;wrapped in florist waxed paper
then recutting stems  at market.

we use rose "coffins" ie. large styrofaom boxes,used to ship roses that  we
get used from local florist.
they ususally last us a few year us pretty heavy use if kept out of sun 
martin
>
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow



From blevy@rsocsun.tamu.edu Thu Jan 27 11:18:31 2000
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Subject: Re: source of organic cottonseed
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this probably wouldn't answer your friend's need, but FYI, I got some nankeen cotton
seed
from Souther Exposure and grew it out last year, it was a beautiful caramel-colored
short
staple cotton and by growing it out myself I now have a couple of quarts of bolls
(with
seeds) from one packet. I would call and ask them if their cotton seed were organic,
I
wouldn't be surprised if they were. This nankeen cotton also makes a really nice
decorative plant (why I grew it), it is taller, red tinted and more feathery looking
than
regular cotton and the blooms are saucer-sized and pale yellow. Also, Texas has an
organic cotton program, maybe your friend could contact their officer with the state
department of ag and could be put in touch with a farmer who would give her whatever
amount of organically grown cotton bolls (with seeds still embedded) she needed.

Mary Hoelterhoff wrote:

> A friend  of mine is looking for a source, for organic cottonseed.
>
>  She's just needs a small amount.
>
> I've looked in Fedco, Johnny's, Pinetree, ....and did find some in
> Southern Exposure Seed Exchange ( not listed as organic)
>
> Does anyone know of other sources?
>
> Mary Hoelterhoff
> Blue Skink Farm CSA
> Monticello, KY
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
> Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
> Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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> ---
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> To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')




From flowers@rt66.com Thu Jan 27 11:27:31 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: source of organic cottonseed


also try New Mexcio organic commodities commission  (nmocc )at 505 266 9849
they have an extensive contact list for organic cotton growers 

martin

>this probably wouldn't answer your friend's need, but FYI, I got some
nankeen cotton
>seed
>from Souther Exposure and grew it out last year, it was a beautiful
caramel-colored
>short
>staple cotton and by growing it out myself I now have a couple of quarts of
bolls
>(with
>seeds) from one packet. I would call and ask them if their cotton seed were
organic,
>I
>wouldn't be surprised if they were. This nankeen cotton also makes a really
nice
>decorative plant (why I grew it), it is taller, red tinted and more
feathery looking
>than
>regular cotton and the blooms are saucer-sized and pale yellow. Also, Texas
has an
>organic cotton program, maybe your friend could contact their officer with
the state
>department of ag and could be put in touch with a farmer who would give her
whatever
>amount of organically grown cotton bolls (with seeds still embedded) she
needed.
>
>Mary Hoelterhoff wrote:
>
>> A friend  of mine is looking for a source, for organic cottonseed.
>>
>>  She's just needs a small amount.
>>
>> I've looked in Fedco, Johnny's, Pinetree, ....and did find some in
>> Southern Exposure Seed Exchange ( not listed as organic)
>>
>> Does anyone know of other sources?
>>
>> Mary Hoelterhoff
>> Blue Skink Farm CSA
>> Monticello, KY
>>
>> ________________________________________________________________
>> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
>> Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
>> Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
>> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>>
>> ---
>> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: blevy@rsocsun.tamu.edu
>> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>
>
>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: flowers@rt66.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>
>
>
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow



From greenman@ucla.edu Thu Jan 27 11:47:23 2000
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: source of organic cottonseed/Southern Exposure Seed Exchange
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From their website at http://www.southernexposure.com/index1.html-ssi I read:

>Our seed varieties are produced by natural methods. We do not and never will offer
genetically engineered varieties.

 >Much of our seed is organically grown. All our seed is free of chemical treatment, and
safe
 for children and the Earth. Our seed production methods emphasize the importance of a
living
 healthy soil and respect for the interdependent web of life that sustains us all.

Unfortunately you cannot order from the website - unless you want the online special of
sorghum - 5 lb minimum.

David King

Wilderness Flowers wrote:

> also try New Mexcio organic commodities commission  (nmocc )at 505 266 9849
> they have an extensive contact list for organic cotton growers
>
> martin
>
> >this probably wouldn't answer your friend's need, but FYI, I got some
> nankeen cotton
> >seed
> >from Souther Exposure and grew it out last year, it was a beautiful
> caramel-colored
> >short
> >staple cotton and by growing it out myself I now have a couple of quarts of
> bolls
> >(with
> >seeds) from one packet. I would call and ask them if their cotton seed were
> organic,
> >I
> >wouldn't be surprised if they were. This nankeen cotton also makes a really
> nice
> >decorative plant (why I grew it), it is taller, red tinted and more
> feathery looking
> >than
> >regular cotton and the blooms are saucer-sized and pale yellow. Also, Texas
> has an
> >organic cotton program, maybe your friend could contact their officer with
> the state
> >department of ag and could be put in touch with a farmer who would give her
> whatever
> >amount of organically grown cotton bolls (with seeds still embedded) she
> needed.
> >
> >Mary Hoelterhoff wrote:
> >
> >> A friend  of mine is looking for a source, for organic cottonseed.
> >>
> >>  She's just needs a small amount.
> >>
> >> I've looked in Fedco, Johnny's, Pinetree, ....and did find some in
> >> Southern Exposure Seed Exchange ( not listed as organic)
> >>
> >> Does anyone know of other sources?
> >>
> >> Mary Hoelterhoff
> >> Blue Skink Farm CSA
> >> Monticello, KY
> >>
> >> ________________________________________________________________
> >> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
> >> Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
> >> Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
> >> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
> >>
> >> ---
> >> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: blevy@rsocsun.tamu.edu
> >> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >---
> >You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: flowers@rt66.com
> >To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
> >
> >
> >
> Martin Connaughton
> Wilderness Flowers
> 223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
> Santa Fe, NM 87501
> zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: greenman@ucla.edu
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')


From awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us Thu Jan 27 12:20:47 2000
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From: "Wiediger, Alison" <awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us>
To: 'market farming' <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: RE: source of organic cottonseed
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:07:14 -0600
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I have some that we grew out this summer. It is from a long staple
whiteXshort staple brown.  You get two color plants - green and maroon and
two colors of fibre, but both colors fibre from both colors plants.  The
cotton is either white or brown, 3/4" staple, beautiful luster. We can
select seed from either the brown or the white cotton - you'll still
probably get a mix of color, but dominantly white from the white, brown from
the brown.  We intend to continue selection toward the brown.  We are
certified organic.  The cotton was grown with composted chicken manure for
extra fertility, and with no irrigation in our severe drought.  WE got about
15 lbs from two 50' rows.  We have not ginned it yet, but would be willing
to separate out seed for folks who are interested. We have bought the green
from SESE and plan to grow it out this year. We'll price the seed we have
the same as Southern Exposure if anyone is interested.

Paul and Alison Wiediger
Au Naturel Farm
Smiths Grove, KY


> ----------
> From: 	Mary Hoelterhoff[SMTP:maryspiral@juno.com]
> Reply To: 	market farming
> Sent: 	Thursday, January 27, 2000 8:30 AM
> To: 	market farming
> Subject: 	source of organic cottonseed
> 
> 
> A friend  of mine is looking for a source, for organic cottonseed.
> 
>  She's just needs a small amount.
> 
> I've looked in Fedco, Johnny's, Pinetree, ....and did find some in
> Southern Exposure Seed Exchange ( not listed as organic)
> 
> Does anyone know of other sources?
> 
> Mary Hoelterhoff
> Blue Skink Farm CSA
> Monticello, KY
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
> Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
> Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
> 
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as:
> awiediger@hart.k12.ky.us
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
> 

From fullcircle@jps.net Thu Jan 27 13:05:15 2000
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 nc.edu>
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:04:37 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: source of organic cottonseed


Hi all,

Sally Fox of Foxfire pioneered organic colored cotton.  She got run out of
California by the conventional white cotton growers allegedly because of
contamination fears.  She's now in Arizona.  Her website is
http://www.foxfibre.com  You might visit and drop her a line.  She may sell
or know who sells garden quantities of organic seed in many colors.

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From ehendrsn@redsuspenders.com Thu Jan 27 15:35:55 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Henderson" <ehendrsn@redsuspenders.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Share box size
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:47:06 -0500
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Dear Marcie,
I am bewildered at the abundance of lists.  If there is a CSA list on
prairienet, why start another one! Let's all work together!
Elizabeth
-----Original Message-----
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 27, 2000 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: Share box size


>Mary and Liz
>
>I'm forwarding your question and answer on CSA boxes to the two CSA lists,
>they are actually a more appropriate forum for this question, and I'll
>answer on those.  You can subscribe to one or both as follows:
>
>CSa-l from prairienet.  This is the original, John just unsubscribed
>everyone because of the bounce-backs form bad addresses and the
>unsubscribes posted to the list.  FYI January and June bring huge
>unsubscribe requests to all lists as students move on.
>
>To subscribe send an e-mail to listproc@prairienet.org with subscribe CSA-L
>and your first name and last name in the message body.  OR go to the
>website at http://www.prairienet.org/pcsa/CSA-L/subscribing.html and fill
>out the form.
>
>The other list is the new MetaLab list started by Lawrence London whose
>posts have appeared here.
>
>To subscribe to that list send an e-mail to lyris@franklin.oit.unc.edu with
>subscribe csa your_name in either the subject or message body, OR go to the
>website at
>http://franklin.oit.unc.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=csa.
>
>
>Thanks
>
>Marcie A. Rosenzweig
>Full Circle Organic Farm
>Auburn, CA
>
>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as:
ehendrsn@redsuspenders.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>


From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Thu Jan 27 16:22:37 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Newbie Intro
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:22:31 -0800
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Hello, all.  My name is Rose and I'm primarily a cutflower grower in upstate
New York, zone 5.

My husband, Fred, and I rototilled 2.5 acres last year (with our wonderful
new 14hp BCS) in preparation for this year's planting.

The majority of this space will be devoted to cutflowers from seedlings
grown in our new heated hoophouse and from direct sown.  About 30% of the
space will be devoted to produce.

The aim is to sell directly to customers thru Farmers Markets, as well as to
florists, restaurants, and anyone else who'll have us.  The acreage is
obviously bigger than farmers markets can support - but, since this scale is
all very new to us - we haven't the foggiest idea of what 2.5 acres looks
like planted!

But, hey, seeds are cheap, right?

Good to be on board.  I'm looking forward to hearing what you all discuss
and getting ideas on market farming.

Thanks,

Rose


From marc@aculink.net Thu Jan 27 17:24:47 2000
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Rose & Fred Lieberman wrote:
> 
> Hello, all.  My name is Rose and I'm primarily a cutflower grower in upstate
> New York, zone 5.
> 
> My husband, Fred, and I rototilled 2.5 acres last year (with our wonderful
> new 14hp BCS) in preparation for this year's planting.
> 
> The majority of this space will be devoted to cutflowers from seedlings
> grown in our new heated hoophouse and from direct sown.  About 30% of the
> space will be devoted to produce.
> 
> The aim is to sell directly to customers thru Farmers Markets, as well as to
> florists, restaurants, and anyone else who'll have us.  The acreage is
> obviously bigger than farmers markets can support - but, since this scale is
> all very new to us - we haven't the foggiest idea of what 2.5 acres looks
> like planted!
> 
> But, hey, seeds are cheap, right?
> 
> Good to be on board.  I'm looking forward to hearing what you all discuss
> and getting ideas on market farming.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Rose

Good luck!!

Actually we are getting some seeds that sell for around
$400/lb!! 

Marc

From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Thu Jan 27 17:34:33 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Seeds not so cheap
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 17:34:06 -0800
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Hi, Marc.  Since I'm new to all this, I've been doing a lot of reading, and
you can't imagine how many people say: "Oh, don't worry about planting too
much.  After all, seeds are inexpensive."

NOT!

I know what you mean.  They can be VERY expensive.

I get most of my seeds from Johnny's and Fedco.  Fedco for prices.  Johnny's
for whatever Fedco doesn't carry.

Rose


From fullcircle@jps.net Thu Jan 27 17:38:44 2000
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:37:58 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Seeds not so cheap


Rose,

You may want to check Stokes.  They're in your area and their prices are
resonable for small grower quantities.

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From london@metalab.unc.edu Thu Jan 27 18:35:13 2000
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:35:30 -0500 (EST)
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On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Elizabeth Henderson wrote:

> Dear Marcie,

> I am bewildered at the abundance of lists.  If there is a CSA list on
> prairienet, why start another one! Let's all work together!
> Elizabeth

Because csa-l unsubscribed everyone on the list for maintenance or
whatever. I resubscribed to find that it does not seem to be active.
My test post there is the only message I have seen since I resubscribed.
I will probably unsubscribe.

Admittedly I acted to start this list at the opportune time. So be it.
The list will remain and flourish, hopefully. We have a good beginning
with 40 subscribers as of this moment. 

The CSA-L list was/is one of the single best resources for market and csa
farmers ever to exist on the Web. This momentum needs to continue
regardless of which list it happens on. I hope we agree about this.

One of the reasons the csa-l list unsubscribed everyone was various
unproductive threads and invalid email addresses for subscribers.
The MetaLab Lyris CSA list has automated, unattended, built-in email
address checking - users are automatically unsubscribed if mail sent to
their ID bouces for X number (configurable) days. It is much easier to
administer, has more user and admin options and features and is accessable
by email, news and the Web instead of just by email.

I hope you'll subscribe and make it work for you.

Cheers,

Lawrence

> >The other list is the new MetaLab list started by Lawrence London whose
> >posts have appeared here.
> >
> >To subscribe to that list send an e-mail to lyris@franklin.oit.unc.edu with
> >subscribe csa your_name in either the subject or message body, OR go to the
> >website at
> >http://franklin.oit.unc.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=csa.


Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu




From london@metalab.unc.edu Thu Jan 27 18:39:22 2000
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On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Rose & Fred Lieberman wrote:

> I get most of my seeds from Johnny's and Fedco.  Fedco for prices.  Johnny's
> for whatever Fedco doesn't carry.

Could you post contact info for Fedco?

I hear Park Seed is good and carries many heirloom varieties. 
I'll post some of my seed company adresses after I put the catalogs 
in a pile to read from.

Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu





From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Thu Jan 27 18:52:47 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: FEDCO # (was Re: Seeds not so cheap)
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:52:26 -0800
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Hi, Lawrence.

FEDCO's number is 207-873-7333

I ordered more than half my seed from them last year, as well.  They're
great to do business with.

My only complaint is that they offer very little cultural information that's
greenhouse related, unlike Johnny's Selected Seeds which not only offers the
info in the catalog, but one can readily speak to an "expert" when calling
them.  But for prices, you can't beat Fedco!

Rose.



From sojournr@missouri.org Thu Jan 27 18:59:17 2000
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"Lawrence F. London, Jr." wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2000, Rose & Fred Lieberman wrote:
> 
> > I get most of my seeds from Johnny's and Fedco.  Fedco for prices.  Johnny's
> > for whatever Fedco doesn't carry.
> 
> Could you post contact info for Fedco?
> 
> I hear Park Seed is good and carries many heirloom varieties.
> I'll post some of my seed company adresses after I put the catalogs
> in a pile to read from.

Here are some of my favorite garden/herb/seed suppliers:

Le Jardin du Gourmet: Sample Herb Seed Packets Price: US$0.30/each

They used to offer a very reasonably priced introductory package of
garlic and shallots, don't know if they still do that anymore or not.

http://www.kingcon.com/agljdg/INDEX.HTM

Another good and very reasonably priced seed source is Pinetree
Gardens.  Normal size packets (and sometimes slightly larger than usual)
for usually under a dollar, often 60 or 70 cents or so:

http://www.superseeds.com

General seeds, flowers, veggies, good prices on quantities larger than a
packet (quantities of an oz, 1/4 lb, 1/2 lb, and 1 lb and up, often a
pound of seed for say, beans or peas, costs less than a packet from some
suppliers).  The best price I've found on the Earthway Garden Seeder and
its accessories (which I bought).  They charge actual shipping but no
handling fee.  Also carry packing equipment for small to medium scale
growers.  They don't have a web presence but here's their address:

Morgan County Wholesale
18761 Kelsay Road
Barnett, MO     65011-3009

I USED to like Gardener's Supply Company but when I went to their web
site recently they had gone yuppie.  More than half their stuff now
seems to be cutesy garden statues and expensive flower bowls.  But they
do still sell capillary matting and soil blockers.  They're at

http://www.gardeners.com

Mellinger's is a perennial favorite (and annuals and supplies too). 
They have the Automator for the best price I've ever found.  The
automator is a little plastic "well" you put around tomatoes and
peppers.  It has 4 "spikes" sticking down into the ground.  You put
water in the tray and it is dispensed through the spikes.  Makes a huge
difference in plant growth and health and yield.  They carry other
stuff, like 12" to 15" trees for very low prices, and tropical
houseplants, orchids, jasmine, even edible ginger and stevia.  They
carry a pretty good pressure canner though I think Lehman's is actually
cheaper for that.  They carry some trellis netting with a lifetime
warranty.  Seed starting trays, peat pots, etc. for pretty good prices.

http://www.mellingers.com

Gurney's, carries weird things like sugar beet and mangel seeds. 
Carries trees and shrubs, including 4 varieties of disease resistant
apples:  Jonafree, Goldrush, Carefree Liberty, and Freedom.  They only
have a catalog order form on their "website" but at least it saves you a
stamp.

http://www.gurneys.com

Gardens Alive sells just about any beneficial insect you can imagine,
and loads of organic pesticides like BT and pyrethrum/rotenone,
insecticidal soaps, etc.  for not necessarily price-gouging prices.  I
don't know any other source for this stuff except I've seen lady bugs in
Burpee's catalog, but given the fact that EACH and EVERY year they give
me $20 or more off my order it looks pretty cheap to me.  I don't know
why they keep doing that but they do.  This year, if I "buy" $35 worth
of stuff I get a discount of $25.  I don't know, I guess most people buy
loads of stuff because every year there's more and more interesting
stuff in their catalog.  So I guess they're not losing money doing
this.  This year their catalog has 18 pages of color photos and thorough
descriptions of common diseases and insect pests.  That alone makes it
worth your while to send for the catalog.  No website that I know of.

Garden's Alive
5100 Schenley Place
Lawerenceburg, IN    47025
(812) 537-8650

And finally, a newcomer to my list:  Walt Nicke's Garden Talk.  I don't
know how I got on this guy's mailing list but the introduction alone
(entitled Think Globally, Rest Frequently:  The lazy mans' guide to
saving the Earth) make me willing to buy something from the man.  There
are some very, very nice tools in this catalog, REAL tools.  Felco
pruners.  The big ones.  Well made, might I say, finely CRAFTED, garden
spades and forks, not the stamped metal crap at the lumber yard that
comes dull and won't hold an edge anyway.  And there's a wee little bit
of the obligatory cutesy stuff - a face made out of leaves to stick on
your lapel, or a larger version to hang on your wall - but by and large
this is a vendor of Quality Tools.

Walt Nicke Co.
36 McLeaod Lane
PO Box 433
Topsfield, Massachusetts     01983
(978) 887-3388

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From guldann@ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 27 19:01:00 2000
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References: <LYR99061-33913-2000.01.27-16.22.36--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98960-33925-2000.01.27-17.24.44--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Hi Rose, Fred and list,
I grow flowers for my CSA and myself, I love flowers.  What are everyones
favorite annuals I might even ask your favorite "easy" annuals.  The flowers
get attention after the veggies.  So I sort of need easy ones.  I have
ordered a few seeds already, I'll look them up later if anyone is
interested.  Thanks Beth from snowy Massachusetts

> > My husband, Fred, and I rototilled 2.5 acres last year (with our
wonderful
> > new 14hp BCS) in preparation for this year's planting.
> >
> > The majority of this space will be devoted to cutflowers from seedlings
> > grown in our new heated hoophouse and from direct sown.  About 30% of
the
> > space will be devoted to produce.
> >
> > The aim is to sell directly to customers thru Farmers Markets, as well
as to
> > florists, restaurants, and anyone else who'll have us.  The acreage is
> > obviously bigger than farmers markets can support - but, since this
scale is
> > all very new to us - we haven't the foggiest idea of what 2.5 acres
looks
> > like planted!
> >
> > But, hey, seeds are cheap, right?
> >
> > Good to be on board.  I'm looking forward to hearing what you all
discuss
> > and getting ideas on market farming.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Rose
>
> Good luck!!
>
> Actually we are getting some seeds that sell for around
> $400/lb!!
>
> Marc
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: guldann@ix.netcom.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>


From guldann@ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 27 19:02:12 2000
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Subject: Re: Seeds not so cheap
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So far about $500 on seeds and that is not counting seed potatoes and a few
seedlings we may buy.  Beth

> Hi, Marc.  Since I'm new to all this, I've been doing a lot of reading,
and
> you can't imagine how many people say: "Oh, don't worry about planting too
> much.  After all, seeds are inexpensive."
>
> NOT!
>
> I know what you mean.  They can be VERY expensive.
>
> I get most of my seeds from Johnny's and Fedco.  Fedco for prices.
Johnny's
> for whatever Fedco doesn't carry.
>
> Rose
>



From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Thu Jan 27 21:11:00 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Easy annuals...
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:10:09 -0800
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Hi, Beth.

As far as "easy" annuals, it can't get much easier than sunflowers,
calendulas, and cosmos.

I've heard that some folks have done a subscription service for specialty
cutflower bouquets.  That's done - I'm sure - in upscale communities.  I'm
not in one of those.

Does the regular CSA subscription that you work with include flowers, or are
they just available and "extra" when subscribers come to your farm?

Rose


From whistle@halcyon.com Thu Jan 27 21:22:25 2000
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Subject: Re: Easy annuals...
From: "Shelley Pasco" <whistle@halcyon.com>
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I have to add Rudbeckia "Indian Summer" and Bachelor Buttons to the easy 
annuals list. Also Asters aren't too difficult and everybody loves
them--they're nice because they come on relatively late in the season. Also
try Zinnias--who doesn't love zinnias? The only tricky part is waiting until
the soil warms up a little and giving them support like you would any other
flower.
Shelley
Whistling Train Farm
Kent, WA

----------
>From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
>To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
>Subject: Easy annuals...
>Date: Thu, Jan 27, 2000, 9:10 PM
>

> Hi, Beth.
>
> As far as "easy" annuals, it can't get much easier than sunflowers,
> calendulas, and cosmos.
>
> I've heard that some folks have done a subscription service for specialty
> cutflower bouquets.  That's done - I'm sure - in upscale communities.  I'm
> not in one of those.
>
> Does the regular CSA subscription that you work with include flowers, or are
> they just available and "extra" when subscribers come to your farm?
>
> Rose
>
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: whistle@halcyon.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
> 

From bennett@frognet.net Thu Jan 27 21:38:38 2000
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From: "D.Bennett" <bennett@frognet.net>
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Subject: Re: Seeds not so cheap
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:31:52 -0500
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Does Fedco have a web site?  I don't know them and would like to have a
catalog.  This is my first year also.  Well, not really, about 25 years ago
I quit gardening and doing farmers' markets.  So much has changed though, it
seems like this is the first year!

-----Original Message-----
From: Rose & Fred Lieberman <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Thursday, January 27, 2000 5:33 PM
Subject: Seeds not so cheap


>Hi, Marc.  Since I'm new to all this, I've been doing a lot of reading, and
>you can't imagine how many people say: "Oh, don't worry about planting too
>much.  After all, seeds are inexpensive."
>
>NOT!
>
>I know what you mean.  They can be VERY expensive.
>
>I get most of my seeds from Johnny's and Fedco.  Fedco for prices.
Johnny's
>for whatever Fedco doesn't carry.
>
>Rose
>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: bennett@frognet.net
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>


From pike@always-online.com Thu Jan 27 22:37:30 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR99061-33913-2000.01.27-16.22.36--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-33925-2000.01.27-17.24.44--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: cheap seed
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----- Original Message -----
From: Marc & Marcy <marc@aculink.net>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: Newbie Intro



> Rose & Fred Lieberman wrote:
> >
> > But, hey, seeds are cheap, right?
>
> Good luck!!
>
> Actually we are getting some seeds that sell for around
> $400/lb!!
>
> Marc


I just paid $458 for 1 lb. of my most popular sunflower seed!!  Cheapest
price I could find.

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina


From pike@always-online.com Thu Jan 27 22:46:38 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
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Hi Beth, I just sent out an email on sunflowers.  I'll look it up & forward
a copy to you.  They were so successful last year I think I'll cut back on
the types of flowers I grow & stick with sunflowers.  They really complement
veggies & look spectacular on the table.

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina


From marc@aculink.net Thu Jan 27 23:04:47 2000
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Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:58:56 -0700
From: Marc & Marcy <marc@aculink.net>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Greenhouse Covering
References: <LYR99061-33623-2000.01.26-03.49.49--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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I believe this could be of possible concern for some in the
group.

Our first order of 6 mil UV-treated poly arrived a few
months ago for our greenhouse that used steel support
ribbing and no problem with compatibility on the directions
for steel. 

It took three 4' by 4' pallets connected together and a
Yellow Freight truck with hydraulic unloading capability. I
could only move the palletting with my backhoe. (I state
this to let those not baptized with poly delivery know how
big the package is and the delivery charge is not free.)

Our second order of 6 mil UV-treated poly arrived a week or
so ago for our latest greenhouse effort and a BIG problem
came with it! When we got the package, the protective
covering had instructions that stated not to use in contact
with PVC.

Our latest and greatest greenhouse design uses 2 inch PVC
with center beam-on-post support. At 30' by 95' it is not
practical to abandon it considering it is already
erected/assembled and waiting for the poly!

We called the saleswoman and she said that the only problem
with PVC was the black color and we could just paint it.  

A call to the factory on the 1-800 number printed on the
protective cover got us THE Techy engineer who told us there
is a two-fold problem.  One is with the black PVC (we have
white) and the other problem is due to the chloride in PVC
pipe.  When the sun hits the PVC it will cause chloride
gases to escape and the poly will turn white where the PVC
touches and disintegrate.  An older formulation of covering
USED to be OKAY to use with PVC.

Thought some of you would like to know.

(We are pursuing covering the PVC but await 3M's blessing
for the covering)

Marc S. Nameth

From pike@always-online.com Thu Jan 27 23:31:33 2000
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References: <LYR99061-33623-2000.01.26-03.49.49--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-33988-2000.01.27-23.04.46--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Very interesting, Marc.  I just paid $110 for a 20x25 piece of greenhouse
plastic that's approved for PVC.  Almost made the mistake of ordering the
stuff NOT recommended til I read the teeny-tiny print.  Could have used
cheap, non-uv stuff, but didn't want to spend all that time picking up those
hellish pieces when it decided to disintegrate.

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina



From marc@aculink.net Thu Jan 27 23:37:57 2000
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Elizabeth Pike wrote:
> 
> Very interesting, Marc.  I just paid $110 for a 20x25 piece of greenhouse
> plastic that's approved for PVC.  Almost made the mistake of ordering the
> stuff NOT recommended til I read the teeny-tiny print.  Could have used
> cheap, non-uv stuff, but didn't want to spend all that time picking up those
> hellish pieces when it decided to disintegrate.
> 
> Liz Pike
> Morningstar Gardens
> Pollocksville, North Carolina


Yep!! Pays to read the fine print!!

Marc

From lh@pressroom.com Thu Jan 27 23:49:35 2000
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 >
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:49:15 -0500
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Leigh Hauter <lh@pressroom.com>
Subject: Flower shares


We added a flower share to our regular vegetable share last year.  It was
very successful. We are expanding the program for this coming season and
raising the price and are already close to sold out even though we have not
started our spring subscription drive.
Oh course, we are serving a relatively affluent, singles and couples
dominated community, Washington DC.

We started our program incrementally.  When I first started a CSA, 7 years
ago, there were no flowers.  The next year zinnias, the following year we
added sunflowers to our regular share.  Then black eyed Susans, and so on.
We have also played around with other flowers that we have either not
continued or decided not to grow very many of.

I just made our seed orders for the coming year  (over $800 worth) and
there were a lot of flowers.  This year the core flowers in our flower
share will be sunflowers, zinnias, black eyed Susans, coneflowers,
strawflowers, calendula, asters, salvia, Shasta daisies and gloriosa
daisies.  We are planning on growing  to a much lessor degree almost a
dozen others.  I think I would grow this many flowers even if we diddn't
have a flower share.  We like flowers around the farm.

We deliver almost all of our shares (DC has horrible traffic and very few
people could get out to our farm for their shares).  Sunflowers are in the
five gallon buckets and for the others I have bought 4 and 5 quart plastic
paint buckets.  Because of the time involved we don't give bouquets but
instead bunches.  I either pull out the stems from the bucket in front of
the shareholder or let the shareholder select her own stems  (ie this week
you get a dozen zinnias, two sunflowers, six black eyed Susans, two
strawflowers and four coneflowers).  I try to give close to two dozen stems
a week.


The regular vegetable shares get flowers (sunflowers and zinnias mostly)
occasionally.  Either when we have extra time for cutting, when the shares
are small, or when there are extras to cut.


That's probably than you wanted to know about a flower share.
Leigh

From marc@aculink.net Fri Jan 28 00:23:22 2000
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Anyone care to share sources and/or prices for irrigation
tape and chrysanthemums?  

Just found out today my favorite mum place (Huff's in
Kansas) sold their business and the new people aren't doing
wholesale business.

Thanks,
Marcy Nameth
SE Colorado

From flowers@rt66.com Fri Jan 28 00:25:24 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: cheap seed


try gloeckner or modena seed for sunbrite@ $130 per pound

martin>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Marc & Marcy <marc@aculink.net>
>To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
>Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 5:17 PM
>Subject: Re: Newbie Intro
>
>
>
>> Rose & Fred Lieberman wrote:
>> >
>> > But, hey, seeds are cheap, right?
>>
>> Good luck!!
>>
>> Actually we are getting some seeds that sell for around
>> $400/lb!!
>>
>> Marc
>
>
>I just paid $458 for 1 lb. of my most popular sunflower seed!!  Cheapest
>price I could find.
>
>Liz Pike
>Morningstar Gardens
>Pollocksville, North Carolina
>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: flowers@rt66.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>
>
>
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow



From london@metalab.unc.edu Fri Jan 28 01:06:54 2000
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Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 01:07:11 -0500 (EST)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@metalab.unc.edu>
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To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
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Just thought I would submit an opinion on this:

It would seem to me that discussion of any CSA _production_ issues
should be considered appropriate and on-topic in this market farming list.

There seem to be many here who do run CSA's and need a good place for nuts
+ bolts, in depth, production info exchange, Q&A and general discussion of
this topic. 

Lawrence

Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu



From lflondon@mindspring.com Fri Jan 28 01:56:59 2000
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
To: csa@franklin.oit.unc.edu, market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu,
        sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: (fwd) PASA conference
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 00:56:10 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm -|- InterGarden
Reply-To: lflondon@mindspring.com, london@metalab.unc.edu
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Nick Pine is an authority on renewable energy with special expertise
in solar thermal  home/farm/shop/greenhouse heating systems. His
interesting posts can be read in the Usenet newsgroup,
alt.solar.thermal.=20
Someone might ask him about glazing options for cloches, greenhouses
and coldframes.  -  I have many of his writings archives at:
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/renewable-energy.html

Lawrence=20
<>
On 8 Jan 2000 09:12:05 -0500, in misc.rural nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick
Pine) wrote:

The Pennsylvania Association for Sustainable Agriculture conference is
happening on Friday and Saturday Feb 4 and 5 at Penn State; $75, with
an optional $17 "Rotational Grazing Feast"/Banquet on Friday night
(PASA--"Farming for the Future"/P O Box 419/Millheim, PA 16854.)

PASA's earthy-crunchy. The conference is sponsored by AgRestore,
Albert's Organics, Inc, American Farmland Trust, Center for Rural
Pennsylvania, Chesapeake Bay Foundation, Dairyland Sales and Service,
Earth's Best Baby Food, Fertrell, Free Choice Enterprises, Ltd,
Goodness Greeness, Healthy Harvest/Greater Pittsburgh Community Food
Bank, Headwaters RC&D, Kreamer Feed Inc, Natural Dairy Products Corp,
Penn State College of Agricultural Sciences, Pennsylvania Certified
Organic, Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture [the worldwide cookie
package stampers], Pennsylvania Department of Environmental
Protection, Pennsylvania Farmers Union, EQI Inc, P. L. Rohrer, Rodale
Institute, Tait Farm Foods, Tuscarora Organic Growers Cooperative,
Walnut Acres Organic Farms, and the Western PA Chapter of OCIA.=20

There's a $10 mini-conference on Women in Agriculture on=20
Thursday, Feb 3.

The conference begins on Friday morning at 8 with a continental
breakfast, and the exhibit hall with its sustainable trade show opens.
Vandana Shiva gives a keynote address at 9:30.=20

=46riday's talks include

Stolen Harvest: the Hijacking of the Global Food Supply
   Vandana Shiva, Research Foundation for Science,=20
  Technology and Ecology
Tough Times for Tender Chicken
   Ray Bolton, Berks Co.
Not Business as Usual: Putting your Money Where your Mouth is
   Judy Wicks, White Dog Cafe
   Jeff Furman, Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream
Medium-scale Organic Vegetable Production or How I Make a Living
While Maintaining the Appearance of Sanity
   Don Kretschmann, Beaver Co.

=46riday evening concludes with a Sustainable Socializing Hour,=20
the Rotational Grazing Feast, and the PASA Chat N' Chew Cafe'.

Saturday's talks include

The Four P's of Pastured Poultry (4 hours)
   Diane Kaufman, Farmer, American Pastured Poultry=20
   Producer's Association
Converting to Holistic Herd Health Care: A Homeopathy-based=20
  System (4 hours)
   Edgar Sheaffer, DVM
Getting Rid of Mildews, Scab and Botrytis from Foliage:=20
   The Secrets of a Good Compost Tea
   Elaine Ingham, Soil Foodweb Inc.
Organizing Farmer to Chef Relationships
   Doyle Freeman, Penn's Corner Farm Alliance
   Kevin Von Klause, White Dog Cafe'
   Bill Fuller, Big Burrito Group
Ecological Waste Treatment: A Fundamental Design Revolution
   John Todd, Ocean Arks Institute
Taking Your CSA to the Next Millennium
   Elizabeth Henderson, Peacework Organic Farm
Hog Calling: Factory Farms and Community Action
   David Brubaker, GRACE
   Paul Durrenburger, Penn State=20
   Pennsylvanians for Responsible Agriculture.

John Todd gives a closing address at 3 PM.

Nick

Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden      =20
http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere      =20
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu


From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Fri Jan 28 07:03:16 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Fedco (was Re: Seeds not so cheap)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:02:40 -0800
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Fedco does not have a website to speak of.  It justs says they exist, but
the site is not interactive, and they don't even have an e-mail address!

FEDCO's number is 207-873-7333.

One of the reasons they do so little in the way of advertising is it keeps
their costs down.  Their catalog, while very thick, has no colored pictures,
although the descriptions are full and very interesting.

They don't have banks of people manning phones; they charge YOU if you order
by fax; they don't have a great website.  But what they do have is CHEAP
PRICES.

Their quality is very high.  Oh, and another intersting thing about Fedco is
that they code every seed to let you know whether the company or farm - be
it a small farm or a huge one - is involved in genetic manipulation.
However, none of their seed is GM'd.  The information is just about those
particular companies.

Most of the seed is organically grown.  They give generous discounts if the
orders get in by a certain time.  But even without the discounts, you can't
beat the prices!

Rose


From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Fri Jan 28 07:24:36 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: An example of Fedco and JSS prices...(was Re: cheap seed)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:24:37 -0800
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Speaking of sunflowers, although they don't carry the range of sunflowers
some other catalogs do, they have the following prices:

For Fedco:  I didn't order these, but...

Prado Red and Prado Gold - $25/oz
Lemon Queen - $25/lb


As far as JSS (Johnny's Selected Seeds), these seeds I ordered:

Sonja 35.50/oz
Sunrich Orange and Yellow 21.65/oz
Tohoku Yae 54.50/oz (I had to choke this down when I ordered it)!
Ikarus 26.00/oz


Whew!

Rose


From BRBF@compulinx-net.net Fri Jan 28 07:30:02 2000
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Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:32:28 -0400
Subject: favorite annuals
From: "K&L.Chapis" <BRBF@compulinx-net.net>
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HI ALL!  MY CUSTOMERS AND I HAVE ENJOYED A LIGHT PINK/PURPLE COSMOS CALLED
VERSAILLES/ PINK EYE FROM JOHNNY'S.  THE STEMS ARE FAIRLY STRONG FOR COSMOS-
THEY BLOOM FOR A VERY LONG TIME AND ARE SPECTACULAR BUNCHED WITH BLOOMING
CINN. BASIL.
I COULD USE A SOURCE FOR FLORAL SLEEVES.  I'M IN OHIO.
LOVE THIS EXCHANGE OF INFO!
LYN
----------
> From: "Hook Family" <guldann@ix.netcom.com>
> To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
> Subject: Re: Newbie Intro 
> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:03:24 -0800 
> 
>Hi Rose, Fred and list,
>I grow flowers for my CSA and myself, I love flowers.  What are everyones
>favorite annuals I might even ask your favorite "easy" annuals.  The
flowers
>get attention after the veggies.  So I sort of need easy ones.  I have
>ordered a few seeds already, I'll look them up later if anyone is
>interested.  Thanks Beth from snowy Massachusetts
>
>> > My husband, Fred, and I rototilled 2.5 acres last year (with our
>wonderful
>> > new 14hp BCS) in preparation for this year's planting.
>> >
>> > The majority of this space will be devoted to cutflowers from seedlings
>> > grown in our new heated hoophouse and from direct sown.  About 30% of
>the
>> > space will be devoted to produce.
>> >
>> > The aim is to sell directly to customers thru Farmers Markets, as well
>as to
>> > florists, restaurants, and anyone else who'll have us.  The acreage is
>> > obviously bigger than farmers markets can support - but, since this
>scale is
>> > all very new to us - we haven't the foggiest idea of what 2.5 acres
>looks
>> > like planted!
>> >
>> > But, hey, seeds are cheap, right?
>> >
>> > Good to be on board.  I'm looking forward to hearing what you all
>discuss
>> > and getting ideas on market farming.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Rose
>>
>> Good luck!!
>>
>> Actually we are getting some seeds that sell for around
>> $400/lb!!
>>
>> Marc
>>
>> ---
>> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: guldann@ix.netcom.com
>> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
>$subst('Email.Unsub')
>>
>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: brbf@compulinx-net.net
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>



From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Fri Jan 28 07:35:09 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Floral Sleeves  (was Re: favorite annuals)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:35:10 -0800
Message-ID: <01bf69a5$435dbc00$3bfb96d1@default>
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Lyn, I know next-to-nothing about the sleeves themselves, but here are two
suppliers.

The first one is listed in the ASCFG (Assoc. for Specialty Cut Flower
Growers) quarterly publication, but the company just lists the 800# and no
location:  1-844-442-7793; but their website is www.flowersleeves.com

I called them yesterday and they're sending me samples.

A-ROO Company is in Strongsville, OH.  I called them and they sent me a
generous array of sample sleeves:

phone: 440-238-8850
email: salesohio@a-roo.com
website: www.a-roo.com


Rose


From ehendrsn@redsuspenders.com Fri Jan 28 07:59:04 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Henderson" <ehendrsn@redsuspenders.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Fedco (was Re: Seeds not so cheap)
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:10:13 -0500
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FEDCO's discounts are actually very substantial.  Our order is over $700,
but with the discounts, 2% for early order, 20% for volume and 1% for being
organic, we paid $550.
Liz
-----Original Message-----
From: Rose & Fred Lieberman <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Friday, January 28, 2000 7:04 AM
Subject: Fedco (was Re: Seeds not so cheap)


>Fedco does not have a website to speak of.  It justs says they exist, but
>the site is not interactive, and they don't even have an e-mail address!
>
>FEDCO's number is 207-873-7333.
>
>One of the reasons they do so little in the way of advertising is it keeps
>their costs down.  Their catalog, while very thick, has no colored
pictures,
>although the descriptions are full and very interesting.
>
>They don't have banks of people manning phones; they charge YOU if you
order
>by fax; they don't have a great website.  But what they do have is CHEAP
>PRICES.
>
>Their quality is very high.  Oh, and another intersting thing about Fedco
is
>that they code every seed to let you know whether the company or farm - be
>it a small farm or a huge one - is involved in genetic manipulation.
>However, none of their seed is GM'd.  The information is just about those
>particular companies.
>
>Most of the seed is organically grown.  They give generous discounts if the
>orders get in by a certain time.  But even without the discounts, you can't
>beat the prices!
>
>Rose
>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as:
ehendrsn@redsuspenders.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>


From gcr@rhealiving.com Fri Jan 28 07:59:26 2000
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Reply-To: <gcr@rhealiving.com>
From: "Donna Fezler" <gcr@rhealiving.com>
To: "'market farming'" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: RE: Flower shares
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:02:20 -0600
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Importance: Normal


Can someone make price recommendations for a farmers market?  I realize she
is serving an affluent urban community, so can we have discussion of pricing
of flowers.

Donna Fezler
GCR
Jacksonville, IL

http://www.rhealiving.com


----


From guldann@ix.netcom.com Fri Jan 28 08:12:16 2000
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From: "Hook Family" <guldann@ix.netcom.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98960-33971-2000.01.27-21.38.37--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Seeds not so cheap
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:13:50 -0800
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FEDCO's number is 207-873-7333

They do not have a web page in which you can order from.  Call for the
catalogue, its worth the read.  We order most of our seeds from fedco.  Beth

> Does Fedco have a web site?  I don't know them and would like to have a
> catalog.  This is my first year also.  Well, not really, about 25 years
ago
> I quit gardening and doing farmers' markets.  So much has changed though,
it
> seems like this is the first year!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rose & Fred Lieberman <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
> To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
> Date: Thursday, January 27, 2000 5:33 PM
> Subject: Seeds not so cheap
>
>
> >Hi, Marc.  Since I'm new to all this, I've been doing a lot of reading,
and
> >you can't imagine how many people say: "Oh, don't worry about planting
too
> >much.  After all, seeds are inexpensive."
> >
> >NOT!
> >
> >I know what you mean.  They can be VERY expensive.
> >
> >I get most of my seeds from Johnny's and Fedco.  Fedco for prices.
> Johnny's
> >for whatever Fedco doesn't carry.
> >
> >Rose
> >
> >
> >---
> >You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: bennett@frognet.net
> >To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
> >
>
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: guldann@ix.netcom.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
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>


From guldann@ix.netcom.com Fri Jan 28 08:16:32 2000
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From: "Hook Family" <guldann@ix.netcom.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR99061-33913-2000.01.27-16.22.36--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98960-33925-2000.01.27-17.24.44--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-33949-2000.01.27-19.00.58--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98960-33985-2000.01.27-22.46.37--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Newbie Intro
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:15:54 -0800
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Liz Thanks for the sunflower info.  Beth
----- Original Message -----
From: Elizabeth Pike <pike@always-online.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: Newbie Intro


> Hi Beth, I just sent out an email on sunflowers.  I'll look it up &
forward
> a copy to you.  They were so successful last year I think I'll cut back on
> the types of flowers I grow & stick with sunflowers.  They really
complement
> veggies & look spectacular on the table.
>
> Liz Pike
> Morningstar Gardens
> Pollocksville, North Carolina
>
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: guldann@ix.netcom.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
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>


From guldann@ix.netcom.com Fri Jan 28 08:35:24 2000
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From: "Hook Family" <guldann@ix.netcom.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98960-34060-2000.01.28-07.59.22--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: flowers and flower pricing
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:36:56 -0800
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Donna took the words right out of my mouth, I too would like to know retail
flower pricing.  I know many of you do farmer's markets are there any farm
stand people out there?  "Spying" on local farm stands I noted that they
sold single sunflower flowers for $1.00 ea.
So far my planned flowers to grow this year are:
Calendula: grew them last year for the first time didn't do well do to the
drought BUT did live when some other flower didn't

Zinnia love them have grown for 2 years first year fabulous last year due to
drought didn't grow as tall
Annual Baby Breath have never grown and suggestions said very easy in
catalogue
Salvia silver grew last year never got a flower, vegetation ok
Joseph's Coat Perfecta an amarantus never grown
Two more anmaranthus Green Thumb and Pygmy Torch never grew before
Bachelor Buttons have grown in past
Cosmos grew 2 years ago, may never have to plant them again had bunch last
year didn't plant any of them
Sunflowers have grown am going to grow more this year, also had lots that re
seeded themselves last year good thing about the only good looking flower
(besides cosmos) on the place.

Have seeds coming from Fedco don't remember what!  Beth PS flowers are just
a part of share this year pick your own with instructions as to how many





From jcvk@hotmail.com Fri Jan 28 09:30:00 2000
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From: "Jennifer-Claire Klotz" <jcvk@hotmail.com>
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: SARE Producer Grants
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 06:30:18 PST
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If you live in the Western and North Central region it is not to late to 
apply for a USDA SARE Producer Grant.  These are for production research and 
marketing.  AMS is contributing funds such that there will be a greater 
number of recipients of marketing grants than in the past and the criteria 
for the marketing proposals has been broadened.

For more information visit http://www.sare.org

On the left hand side click on your region for more information on how to 
apply!

Claire

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From fullcircle@jps.net Fri Jan 28 09:33:22 2000
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Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 06:32:51 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: market-farming list & csa production discussion (thumbs up?)


Lawrence,

I agree that production issues, i.e. how much to plant, what to plant vs
farmers' mkts, and all cultural practice, soil, and pest topics etc. are
appropo to this list.  I think when the discussion is about CSA specific
share or marketing related topics - brochures, drop sites, where to get
shareholders, shareholder retention, pricing, growing for other farms,
trading produce, etc., the CSA list(s) are better sites.

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From ThymeForEwe@nemaine.com Fri Jan 28 09:43:07 2000
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Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:45:22 -0500
From: Steve & Robin Follette <ThymeForEwe@nemaine.com>
Organization: Thyme For Ewe Farm     http://www.nemaine.com/organic
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Fedco does have a website.  At this time it lists only what is not
available or is on back order.

http://www.fedcoseeds.com

We combined our order with one other farm and individuals this year for a
discount of 32%.  We got 20% for over $300, 2% for getting our order in
before today and 10% for picking it up.  Our discount wouldn't have been
10% less if we hadn't had the orders from individuals.  For the
individuals, they got a big discount they wouldn't have otherwise gotten.

Picking up our order is a  lot of fun.  We stop at the warehouse for seeds,
head down the road to Moose Tubers and then stop for lunch at a nice
restaurant (and spend our discount) on the way home.  It's an all day event
since they're just over three hours from my farm.

Robin

Thyme For Ewe Farm
Farm fresh vegetables and meats.
http://www.nemaine.com/organic



From ThymeForEwe@nemaine.com Fri Jan 28 09:48:30 2000
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From: Steve & Robin Follette <ThymeForEwe@nemaine.com>
Organization: Thyme For Ewe Farm     http://www.nemaine.com/organic
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: cheap seed
References: <LYR99061-33913-2000.01.27-16.22.36--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-33925-2000.01.27-17.24.44--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98995-33983-2000.01.27-22.37.29--ThymeForEwe#nemaine.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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> I just paid $458 for 1 lb. of my most popular sunflower seed!!  Cheapest
> price I could find.
>
Liz, do you mind sharing what kind of sunflower this is?  For that amount
it must be wonderful and I'd love to look up pics on the net.


Robin

Thyme For Ewe Farm
Farm fresh vegetables and meats.
http://www.nemaine.com/organic



From fullcircle@jps.net Fri Jan 28 09:55:03 2000
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Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 06:54:29 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: RE: Flower shares


Donna,

Here, in northern California, outside the San Francisco Bay area, bouquets
go for $3.50 to $5.00 per bunch at the farmers' markets depending on the
flowers involved.  Cosmos, zinnias and small sunflowers tend to be at the
$3.50 end.  I have noticed an inflationary trend in flower pricing over the
last couple of years.

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From fullcircle@jps.net Fri Jan 28 10:17:02 2000
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Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:16:28 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Netiquette


Dearest list,

After sending out several personal reminders in the last two days, I
thought it necessary to post a reminder to the list.

Please, please for the sake of your fellow listees, use snips to cut the
message you respond to.  Quote back only those lines needed for
clarification or direct response.

Those of us in rural areas may not have a local dial-up number to an
unlimited use ISP.  Those who don't pay message units AND useage units to
download their mail.  The more uncut quotes, the higher the cost.  Also,
mailbox space on ISP servers varies.  If someone is subscribed to several
mailing lists, it's possible for their mailbox to fill up and some messages
to bounce back.  Finally, if you signed up for digest, you probably get
sick of reading the same post, quoted in its entirety.  And there's
probably more than one.

OK, that's my list ogre, er owner, message for the day.  ;-)

Please reply privately with whines and complaints.

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From CLABEOTS@baraboo.k12.wi.us Fri Jan 28 10:19:57 2000
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From: "Chris Labeots" <CLABEOTS@baraboo.k12.wi.us>
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Subject: Fwd: Sunflowers
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Sorry I had to send this in a forward but it wasn't accepted the other =
way.

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From: "Chris Labeots" <CLABEOTS@baraboo.k12.wi.us>
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Subject:  Sunflowers
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Quick intro : I have been selling vegetables at our local Farmers' Market =
for 5 yrs. I grow on 2 acres of field all by hand (rototiller too, but I =
have to push it by hand! ) .I am going to try sunflowers for the first =
time this summer, after having no luck with flowers 3 yrs ago. But , i =
need to know:

1) What types of sunflowers hold up well in picking and transport?

2) What is the best way to display them?  Best for both flowers and sales.

3)What types would be good for a beginner in sunflowers? Ease of growing =
and low seed price since I don't know if they"ll sell even.Little or no =
flowers are at our market..... Maybe I should try other flowers also....wel=
l, just sunflower questions now.



--=_2D74895F.C5A4C8E1--

From pike@always-online.com Fri Jan 28 10:24:09 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR99061-33913-2000.01.27-16.22.36--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-33925-2000.01.27-17.24.44--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98995-33983-2000.01.27-22.37.29--ThymeForEwe#nemaine.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34075-2000.01.28-09.48.29--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: sunflower pic
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:25:00 -0500
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Here's a pic Robin.  Double Shine-pollenless, double petaled, 4-6" heads.  I
like it better than the Teddy Bear or Giant Sungold.   I have a florist
contract for 1/2 acre, the others I sell at market for $1.75 stem, or  or 6
for $10.  I sold out most every week.  Dried the ones I didn't sell.

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina



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------=_NextPart_000_0084_01BF6979.EEF8B820--


From fullcircle@jps.net Fri Jan 28 10:44:37 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Fedco has a website


Robin,

Thanks for the website reference for Fedco.

>snip<
>We combined our order with one other farm and individuals this year for a
>discount of 32%.  We got 20% for over $300, 2% for getting our order in
>before today and 10% for picking it up.  Our discount wouldn't have been
>10% less if we hadn't had the orders from individuals.  For the
>individuals, they got a big discount they wouldn't have otherwise gotten.
>snip<

We try to do this with several local market growers adn our Peaceful Valley
soil amendments orders.  These kinds of cooperative arrangements are what
will ultimately help each of us not only survive, but build community.

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From pike@always-online.com Fri Jan 28 10:47:10 2000
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References: <LYR99061-33965-2000.01.27-21.10.56--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34027-2000.01.28-00.23.22--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: irrigation source
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www.Irrigation-Mart.com .   My favorite for any irrigation needs.

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina



From kampy@netins.net Fri Jan 28 10:54:15 2000
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From: Marie Kamphefner <kampy@netins.net>
Subject: Moose Tuber
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What, pray tell, is a moose tuber?  Where would one find information about
building a hoop house?

Thanks in advance.

Marie Kamphefner
Strawberry Lane Farm
http://www.netins.net/showcase/slf


From pike@always-online.com Fri Jan 28 11:04:38 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "Chris Labeots" <CLABEOTS@baraboo.k12.wi.us>,
	"market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <s8916557.097@baraboo.k12.wi.us>
Subject: Re: Sunflowers
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:06:05 -0500
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>I also forgot to ask if the sunflowers are started inside or just seeded
outside in place. And, What amount would be a good amount to grow?< Chris


I forgot to answer your questions!!  Should have compiled the emails into
one-sorry!

I plant all my sunflowers outside.  I just don't have the room to start them
earlier since we grow so many.    As far as amounts to grow, just remember
they need about 1-2' spacing.  So working this out & whatever space you can
alot for them will help you determine how many to grow.  My first year of
planting to sell sunflowers, I did 2-200' rows.  And I actually stumbled
across selling sunflowers in the first place.  I began cutting the
volunteers around the yard to decorate & fix up my predominantly veggie
booth at farmer's market.  Sold the flowers before anything else!

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina





From sojournr@missouri.org Fri Jan 28 11:13:16 2000
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Marie Kamphefner wrote:
> 
> What, pray tell, is a moose tuber?  Where would one find information about
> building a hoop house?
> 
> Thanks in advance.
>
Don't know about "Moose Tubers", but here are some green house DIY
sites.  The last one is for a hoop house, I don't remember about the
first two.

http://ext.msstate.edu/pubs/is941.htm
http://www.eren.doe.gov/consumerinfo/refbriefs/vg9.html
http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/bae/programs/extension/publicat/postharv/green/green.html

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From flowers@rt66.com Fri Jan 28 11:15:47 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: Moose Tuber


try www.attra.org for hoop house plans  martin


>What, pray tell, is a moose tuber?  Where would one find information about
>building a hoop house?
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Marie Kamphefner
>Strawberry Lane Farm
>http://www.netins.net/showcase/slf
>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: flowers@rt66.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>
>
>
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow



From pike@always-online.com Fri Jan 28 11:19:01 2000
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Subject: Re: Hoop House Plans
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Marie, here's the one I'm currently building.  Tiny by other list
subscribers' comparisons, but it'll get me up & running-very inexpensively.
(I only need one for spring & fall season extension, & seed starting).

http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/bae/programs/extension/publicat/postharv/green/green
.html

The only change I am making is using a center support, and the greenhouse UV
plastic I spoke of in an earlier email.  Regular plastic will disintegrate
quickly (within 3 months)in our heat.  The greenhouse plastic is warranted
to last for 4-6 years.  It has a special additive to keep condensation from
dripping, by causing moisture to flow down to the sides of the greenhouse,
where it won't affect plants.   You can also order their Thermal Film, which
claims to allow the higest level of diffused growing light of any thermal
film.  Plus, it offers high P.A. R. light transmission and contains the
condensate control additives also.  It can be ordered in whatever size you
need from

http://www.hobbygardens.com/grenhous.html

They also sell the whole greenhouse package, minus lumber, and accessories
such as heaters, ventilation equipment, etc.

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina


From pike@always-online.com Fri Jan 28 11:38:00 2000
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My prices (cellophane sleeves, no vases):

Sunflowers $1.75 per stem, 6/$10
Garden bouquets 3 sizes $2, $3, $4
Miniature roses, 1 dz $4  (these are 1"-2"  blooms.  Customers get a kick
out of buying a dozen roses for $4.  I also tell them, they dry perfectly
for crafts, just quit putting water in them, and set them aside on top of
fridge or cabinet.  Fresh blooms do not last as long as full size roses.)

My flower friend (this is all she sells):

4 stems $6, 8 stems $10.  Prices include a few stems of filler material,
some she grows, some she gathers wild.

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina




From flowers@rt66.com Fri Jan 28 11:40:49 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: An example of Fedco and JSS prices...(was Re: cheap seed)


im not sure current prices at gloeckner on these seeds but they are usually
the best priced and good service 
they are at 8003453787 ... eg.sunbright was $130 per 10000 seed (~.93# #)jss
was $162.


>Speaking of sunflowers, although they don't carry the range of sunflowers
>some other catalogs do, they have the following prices:
>
>For Fedco:  I didn't order these, but...
>
>Prado Red and Prado Gold - $25/oz
>Lemon Queen - $25/lb
>
>
>As far as JSS (Johnny's Selected Seeds), these seeds I ordered:
>
>Sonja 35.50/oz
>Sunrich Orange and Yellow 21.65/oz
>Tohoku Yae 54.50/oz (I had to choke this down when I ordered it)!
>Ikarus 26.00/oz
>
>
>Whew!
>
>Rose
>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: flowers@rt66.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>
>
>
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow



From flowers@rt66.com Fri Jan 28 11:45:24 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: An example of Fedco and JSS prices...(was Re: cheap seed)


>Speaking of sunflowers, although they don't carry the range of sunflowers
>some other catalogs do, they have the following prices:
>E&R 1356 e.200S monroe ia,46772 no phone/fax/http/emial .....only snail...

has sonya @ $23.85 per ounce ...$82 per 1/4 #....lemon queen @24.5/#

Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow



From flowers@rt66.com Fri Jan 28 11:51:51 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: favorite annuals:ASCFG


if you are into cutflowers you should join www.ascfg.org 

really great listserve of PROFESSIONAL FLOWER GOWERS WITH CENTURIES OF
EXPERIENCE (NEED TO BE MEEMBER TO ACESS LISTSERVE)AND A TERRIFFIC ANNUAL
MEETING..THIS YEAR AUSTIN TX.. THAT WILL TEACH YOU MORE ABOUT FLOWER GROWING
IN A FEW DAYS THEN YOU MIGHT LEARN IN A LIFETIME

 ALSO THERE IS A ONE DAY GROWERS SCHOOL THAT WILL GIVE YOU A BIG ADVANTAGE
OVER YOUR COMPETITION AND PUT YOU LIGHT YEARS AHEAD 

IF THAT IS NOT ENOUGH ASCFG HAS A ANNUAL TRIAL WHERE YOU GET TO TRIAL SEED
NOT YET AVAILABLE FOR GENERAL RELEASE !! MARTIN ASCFG MEMBER SINCE 1994


>HI ALL!  MY CUSTOMERS AND I HAVE ENJOYED A LIGHT PINK/PURPLE COSMOS CALLED
>VERSAILLES/ PINK EYE FROM JOHNNY'S.  THE STEMS ARE FAIRLY STRONG FOR COSMOS-
>THEY BLOOM FOR A VERY LONG TIME AND ARE SPECTACULAR BUNCHED WITH BLOOMING
>CINN. BASIL.
>I COULD USE A SOURCE FOR FLORAL SLEEVES.  I'M IN OHIO.
>LOVE THIS EXCHANGE OF INFO!
>LYN
>----------
>> From: "Hook Family" <guldann@ix.netcom.com>
>> To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
>> Subject: Re: Newbie Intro 
>> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:03:24 -0800 
>> 
>>Hi Rose, Fred and list,
>>I grow flowers for my CSA and myself, I love flowers.  What are everyones
>>favorite annuals I might even ask your favorite "easy" annuals.  The
>flowers
>>get attention after the veggies.  So I sort of need easy ones.  I have
>>ordered a few seeds already, I'll look them up later if anyone is
>>interested.  Thanks Beth from snowy Massachusetts
>>
>>> > My husband, Fred, and I rototilled 2.5 acres last year (with our
>>wonderful
>>> > new 14hp BCS) in preparation for this year's planting.
>>> >
>>> > The majority of this space will be devoted to cutflowers from seedlings
>>> > grown in our new heated hoophouse and from direct sown.  About 30% of
>>the
>>> > space will be devoted to produce.
>>> >
>>> > The aim is to sell directly to customers thru Farmers Markets, as well
>>as to
>>> > florists, restaurants, and anyone else who'll have us.  The acreage is
>>> > obviously bigger than farmers markets can support - but, since this
>>scale is
>>> > all very new to us - we haven't the foggiest idea of what 2.5 acres
>>looks
>>> > like planted!
>>> >
>>> > But, hey, seeds are cheap, right?
>>> >
>>> > Good to be on board.  I'm looking forward to hearing what you all
>>discuss
>>> > and getting ideas on market farming.
>>> >
>>> > Thanks,
>>> >
>>> > Rose
>>>
>>> Good luck!!
>>>
>>> Actually we are getting some seeds that sell for around
>>> $400/lb!!
>>>
>>> Marc
>>>
>>> ---
>>> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: guldann@ix.netcom.com
>>> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
>>$subst('Email.Unsub')
>>>
>>
>>
>>---
>>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: brbf@compulinx-net.net
>>To unsubscribe send a blank email to
>$subst('Email.Unsub')
>>
>
>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: flowers@rt66.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>
>
>
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow



From ThymeForEwe@nemaine.com Fri Jan 28 11:57:41 2000
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From: Steve & Robin Follette <ThymeForEwe@nemaine.com>
Organization: Thyme For Ewe Farm     http://www.nemaine.com/organic
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Moose Tuber
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Moose tubers are potatoes.  While we were there last year we asked about
the name.  Years ago a gentleman dug up a potato that looked like a moose's
head with antlers.  He called it a moose tuber and the name stuck.  This is
what Fedco calls their potatoes.

Robin

Thyme For Ewe Farm
Farm fresh vegetables and meats.
http://www.nemaine.com/organic



From guldann@ix.netcom.com Fri Jan 28 12:08:15 2000
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References: <LYR98960-34086-2000.01.28-10.17.01--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Netiquette
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Dear Marcie and list, I don't disagree but thought I should point something
out and ask for assistance.  I send two I believe messages that I thought
would go to the author only and not the list, yup both came to list.  I hit
reply not reply to all.  It appears this list is formatted different than
some other lists I am on.  So other than sending a new message how does one
send to author only?  Thanks Beth

> Dearest list,
>
> After sending out several personal reminders in the last two days, I
> thought it necessary to post a reminder to the list.
>
> Please, please for the sake of your fellow listees, use snips to cut the
> message you respond to.  Quote back only those lines needed for
> clarification or direct response.
> > Please reply privately with whines and complaints.
>
> Marcie A. Rosenzweig
> Full Circle Organic Farm
> Auburn, CA
>



From guldann@ix.netcom.com Fri Jan 28 12:18:04 2000
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From: "Hook Family" <guldann@ix.netcom.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98960-34060-2000.01.28-07.59.22--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34067-2000.01.28-08.35.23--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98960-34114-2000.01.28-11.37.59--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: flowers
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Hi list, Just remembered 2 years ago at the winter NOFA conference (this
year Feb. 5) I went to a class on selling flowers.  I am no way going to
remember everything the teacher taught here is some:
group flowers that will be sold by the stem into monocolor buckets
when making bouquets put in one wierd thing.  He said his wierd things were
unusual flowers or unusual wild stuff ie grass branch etc.
he also said he sprinkled rose oil around (sparingly) his booth he swore it
attracted buying customers.
Haven't tried any of above :) Beth


From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Fri Jan 28 12:27:27 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Moose Tuber
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 12:27:12 -0800
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Moose Tubers is just the sub-company name of the part of Fedco that sells
seed potatoes.

You know, Moose - Maine...

No such thing as a moose tuber.  Just a division of Fedco.

Rose


From KWallie@aol.com Fri Jan 28 12:27:51 2000
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In a message dated 1/28/00 10:54:03 AM Central Standard Time, 
flowers@rt66.com writes:

<< ..THIS YEAR AUSTIN TX.. THAT WILL TEACH YOU MORE ABOUT FLOWER GROWING
 IN A FEW DAYS >>
when???

From fullcircle@jps.net Fri Jan 28 12:33:49 2000
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Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:33:16 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Netiquette -  author only replies


HI all,

I'm using EudoraPro on a Mac so this may be different for those of you
using other e-mail progarms.

Beth, you are correct.  The csa-l and the others I'm on reply only to the
author and not to the entire list.

As I understand it, the standard protocol for MetaLab mailing lists is to
reply to the list when you hit reply.  I think this can be changed if the
consensus of the list is to do so.

When I want to reply individually, I use my cursor to highlight the maining
address of the person who sent the massage, and copy it.  Then I hit reply
and use my cursor to highlight the list address and paste the individual
address in its place.

Once I'm in the reply screen, I can highlight an delete those portions of
the original message body that aren't pertinent to my reply.  Or I can
select the entire message body for deletion and just answer the question
asked.

This worked the same way when I had aol a million years ago, and when I
used Microsoft mail, and when I send a message through Netscape's mailing
command.

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From london@metalab.unc.edu Fri Jan 28 13:15:44 2000
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@metalab.unc.edu>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: market-farming list & csa production discussion (thumbs up?)
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On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Marcie Rosenzweig wrote:

> I agree that production issues, i.e. how much to plant, what to plant vs
> farmers' mkts, and all cultural practice, soil, and pest topics etc. are
> appropo to this list.  I think when the discussion is about CSA specific
> share or marketing related topics - brochures, drop sites, where to get
> shareholders, shareholder retention, pricing, growing for other farms,
> trading produce, etc., the CSA list(s) are better sites.

Absolutely. Thanks.


From london@metalab.unc.edu Fri Jan 28 13:24:24 2000
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I have got to hand it to you. You are really good at tactfully
enforcing the list rules and netiquette. You are doing a marvelous job.
This list is amazing and you are contributing so much to making
it useful and friendly.

We are up to 178 subscribers now. I posted to about 16 Usenet newsgroups
last night announcing the csa list with promo for the market-farming list
(I had done same for market-farming before).

Cheers,

Lawrence


From london@metalab.unc.edu Fri Jan 28 13:36:21 2000
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On Fri, 28 Jan 2000, Hook Family wrote:

> out and ask for assistance.  I send two I believe messages that I thought
> would go to the author only and not the list, yup both came to list.  I hit
> reply not reply to all.  It appears this list is formatted different than
> some other lists I am on.  So other than sending a new message how does one
> send to author only?  Thanks Beth

All you need to do is EDIT your To: header line in your outgoing
message. This usually involves cutting and pasting in the email address of
the desired recipient or manually typing in it to the To: line. That's
about all there is to it.

This list is set up to automagically send replies to the list. This keeps
desired input to the list from getting lost or forgotten when the reply
goes to the author who may not want his or her mailbox filling up with
private email replies to his posts to the list. 


From snsaquasys@townsqr.com Fri Jan 28 18:05:14 2000
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Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:02:59 -0600
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: S & S Aqua Farm <snsaquasys@townsqr.com>
Subject: Hoop house plans


At 09:49 AM 01/28/2000 -0600, Marie wrote:
Where would one find information about
>building a hoop house?
>

Our friends Jack and Suzanne Frazier at Ozark Exotica have a set of plans
available for a house we've used extensively.  Finished size is about
14'x60', with easy to roll-up sides for adjusting temps.  Plans sell for
$10, and the entire house cost us around $240 and a day to construct.

My sister has some plan books for sale at her herb plant business:

Diana Danford
The Herbin' Center
950 CR 8270
West Plains, MO 65775
417-256-1263
Herbin@townsqr.com
http://users.townsqr.com/herbin/

and Jack and Suzanne can be reached at <ozarkexotica@unidial.com>

Paula Speraneo
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775  417-256-5124
Web page  http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/


From gutierrez-lagatta@home.com Fri Jan 28 18:34:32 2000
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Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:39:16 -0500
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta <gutierrez-lagatta@home.com>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: sunflower pic
References: <LYR99061-33913-2000.01.27-16.22.36--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-33925-2000.01.27-17.24.44--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98995-33983-2000.01.27-22.37.29--ThymeForEwe#nemaine.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34075-2000.01.28-09.48.29--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99039-34088-2000.01.28-10.24.09--gutierrez-lagatta#home.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Elizabeth Pike wrote:
> 
> Here's a pic Robin.  Double Shine-pollenless, double petaled, 4-6" heads.  I
> like it better than the Teddy Bear or Giant Sungold.   I have a florist
> contract for 1/2 acre, the others I sell at market for $1.75 stem, or  or 6
> for $10.  I sold out most every week.  Dried the ones I didn't sell.

Liz,
A couple of follow-up sunflower questions:
1.  What type of spacing do you plant the Double-Shines at?
2.  Source for the seed?
3.  Yield in number of saleable stems per plant/acre
4.  Days to harvest/length of harvest
5.  Has anybody tried to sell sunflowers to restaurant accounts along
with greens and veggies?

Adriana Gutierrez
Green Cuisine
Sarasota, FL

From sojournr@missouri.org Fri Jan 28 18:42:29 2000
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Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:46:00 -0600
From: Sojourner <sojournr@missouri.org>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Marcie Rosenzweig wrote:
> 
> HI all,
> 
> I'm using EudoraPro on a Mac so this may be different for those of you
> using other e-mail progarms.
> 
> Beth, you are correct.  The csa-l and the others I'm on reply only to the
> author and not to the entire list.
> 
> As I understand it, the standard protocol for MetaLab mailing lists is to
> reply to the list when you hit reply.  I think this can be changed if the
> consensus of the list is to do so.

Please, let's don't.  I'm on this list in the hopes of sharing
information.  Therefore I expect my responses to list traffic to appear
to the list as a whole.  I am on several other lists and seldom have had
any reason to address individuals privately.  When a person crosses that
boundary between fellow-listmember and friend, I add them to my private
e-mail address book and communicate with them off-list same as any other
friend.  But list business is list business, and IMHO the reply-to
address should be the list address to keep it that way.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From lflondon@mindspring.com Fri Jan 28 19:35:09 2000
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Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:34:19 -0500
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
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To: Sandra Beerman <sbeerman@ucinet.com>, market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
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Sandra Beerman wrote:
> 
> Lawrence, I have been reading the market garden page but don't know if I
> should ask this question there, Could you please take a look at this

Sure could be asked there. I will copy the list with my reply. Hope this
is OK.

> picture and tell me if you know of any source for the cord( tie downs)
> ??
> http://www.hort.vt.edu/faculty/welbaum/pictures/8-13.html
> Thank you for your time. Sandie Beerman-Tree House Farm

I have never seen this type of cord. It may be only available in Japan
but
you could always check the catalogs of the many greenhouse equipment
suppliers.
I would think that this method of venting a tunnel would be used
worldwide
and the necessary equipment universally available.

Anybody in the list familiar with this cord and have lists of greenhouse
equipment suppliers?
(I have some catalogs & will post info RSN).

It looks like some type of modified bungi with hooks or other attaching
apparatus at ends.
Homebrew could be done using any type of
auto/truck/tractor/bicycle/motorcycle
innertube. Cut in one place and split lengthwise and tie off one end.
Cut strips by pulling a 
block of wood with several razor or xacto blades embedded in it - this
will cut several strips 
at once, all equal width. Make the block cutter by drilling several
small diameter holes into 
the end of the block through its length, all equi-spaced across its
width. Take a knife and 
cut along  the length of the block from the top down to meet the
predrilled hole to open up the 
slot to accept the blade. Slide the one-sided/backed blades into the
slots from the end of the 
block. Innertubes should be readily available from tire dealers free or
real cheap. With this 
method you could make hundreds of bungii rapidly and they would last
forever. The Japanese row 
cover bungis could be pricy if not widely used by growers. These could
be held to the ground with 
cheap plastic or galvanized tent pegs from Home Depot, Lowes, Walmart,
or Kmart. 

LL

-- 
Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu

From pike@always-online.com Fri Jan 28 19:38:05 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR99061-33913-2000.01.27-16.22.36--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-33925-2000.01.27-17.24.44--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98995-33983-2000.01.27-22.37.29--ThymeForEwe#nemaine.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34075-2000.01.28-09.48.29--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99039-34088-2000.01.28-10.24.09--gutierrez-lagatta#home.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34216-2000.01.28-18.34.31--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: sunflower pic
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 19:39:36 -0500
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Adriana Gutierrez wrote:

> Liz,
> A couple of follow-up sunflower questions:
> 1.  What type of spacing do you plant the Double-Shines at?

1 1/2'

> 2.  Source for the seed?

Liberty, though it's expensive, and other suppliers listed recently may have
it cheaper ( I searched hi & lo, and couldn't).

> 3.  Yield in number of saleable stems per plant/acre

This varies.  Some plants branch out & some don't-depends on weather,
spacing, fertilizer.  Minimum 1 per plant, maximum 5 per plant, usual, 3 per
plant.  Haven't figured out the per acre yeild.

> 4.  Days to harvest/length of harvest

As usual, this varies.  For me, zone 8, about 60-75 days-I plant on April 15
& usually have flowers for July 4th sales.

> 5.  Has anybody tried to sell sunflowers to restaurant accounts along
> with greens and veggies?

I don't do restaurant sales.  For restaurants, if you're talking about
putting them on the table, the flowers must be small & pollenless.
Sunflowers can be top heavy, so they need adequate size & weight of
container, usually too large for restaurant tables.  Small bouquets with the
flowers cut way down would look great, and of course, those large
arrangements near the doors.

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina



From pike@always-online.com Fri Jan 28 19:51:53 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Greenhouse construction
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 19:53:26 -0500
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Had someone recommend using PVC electrical conduit instead of plumbing =
PVC since it breaks down in sunlight.  Is this true of regular PVC?  I =
noticed at the hardware store tonight the grey, electrical pipe  did =
indeed say sunlight resistant & the white plumbing ones didn't.=20

Any advice?  (For as much time as I'm spending researching & attempting =
to make this thing last I should be building it the size of my house!  =
Should have gone with a kit-but then I've always gotta do it the hard =
way-all on my own.)

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina=20



------=_NextPart_000_0066_01BF69C9.5776A700
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3401" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">Had someone recommend using PVC =
electrical=20
conduit instead of plumbing PVC&nbsp;since it breaks down in =
sunlight.&nbsp; Is=20
this true of regular PVC?&nbsp; I noticed at the hardware store tonight =
the=20
grey, electrical pipe&nbsp; did indeed say sunlight resistant &amp; the =
white=20
plumbing ones didn't.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">Any advice?&nbsp; (For as much =
time as I'm=20
spending researching &amp; attempting to make this thing last I should =
be=20
building it the size of my house!&nbsp; Should have gone with a kit-but =
then=20
I've always gotta do it the hard way-all on my own.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">Liz Pike<BR>Morningstar=20
Gardens<BR>Pollocksville, North Carolina</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0066_01BF69C9.5776A700--


From pike@always-online.com Fri Jan 28 21:53:40 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: starting farmers' markets
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 21:55:04 -0500
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I have some questions to ask for those of you connected with farmer's =
markets. =20

Our little market is located downtown, in the historic district-more =
tourists than residents (you cook when you go on vacation don't you ;^/ =
??)   I drove back down there today to do some thinking.  =20

Have any of you started your own farmer's market, or manage/managed one? =


Are any of you connected with private farmer's markets, and is there =
such a thing?

I have access to several commercial properties on which to start a new =
market.  The locations are close to the major shopping area (yes, we =
only have one!), which pulls from 4 counties.  They're close to several, =
major, affluent neighborhoods.   The city supports the one downtown, =
just barely, just so they can appease the other businesses, and say see? =
 We're trying to build traffic downtown.  A major blow to the area came =
this past fall when a $125 million bridge project opened, deflecting all =
incoming traffic into the downtown-no impulse shoppers now.  I don't =
know to what extent it will affect the fm, but it must affect it. =20

>From a consumer's viewpoint (mom with kids), a new location, where I'd =
like to put one, would entice me to shop at a fm.  Convenience is the =
name of the game these days & I feel we farmers at this particular fm =
are missing out on alot of sales/potential customers.  The city-run fm =
has rules that tie the hands of the farmers (not allowing farm animals =
to visit occasionally-I'd love to take a couple of my silkies for the =
kids to see!), and do not have rules that would help us (they allow =
resellers & far too many crafters, & people who sell socks-go =
figure!!!).   It also has alot of problems with keeping market =
managers-lots of favoritism & cat-fights among the women vendors-I hate =
this!  (Makes me want to get my farmstand built & CSA going, but can't =
do it this soon.) =20

I don't want to run a market-I'm a farmer.  But then I need the market =
to stay a farmer!  =20

Very frustrated,

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3401" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">I have some questions to ask for =
those of=20
you connected with farmer's markets.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">Our little market is located =
downtown, in=20
the historic district-more tourists than residents (you cook when you go =
on=20
vacation don't you ;^/ ??)&nbsp;&nbsp; I drove back down there today to =
do some=20
thinking.&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">Have any of you started your own =
farmer's=20
market, or manage/managed one?&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">Are any of you connected with =
private=20
farmer's markets, and is there such a thing?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">I have&nbsp;access to several =
commercial=20
properties on which to start a new market.&nbsp; The locations are close =
to the=20
major shopping area (yes, we only have one!), which pulls from 4 =
counties.&nbsp;=20
They're close to several, major, affluent neighborhoods.&nbsp;&nbsp; The =
city=20
supports the one downtown, just barely, just so they can appease the =
other=20
businesses, and say see?&nbsp; We're trying to build traffic =
downtown.&nbsp; A=20
major blow to the area came this past fall when a $125 million bridge =
project=20
opened, deflecting all incoming traffic into the downtown-no impulse =
shoppers=20
now.&nbsp; I don't know to what extent it will affect the fm, but it =
must affect=20
it.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">From a&nbsp;consumer's viewpoint =
(mom with=20
kids), a new location, where I'd like to put one, would entice me to =
shop at a=20
fm.&nbsp; Convenience is the name of the game these days &amp; I feel we =
farmers=20
at this particular fm are missing out on alot of sales/potential=20
customers.&nbsp; The city-run fm has&nbsp;rules that tie the hands of =
the=20
farmers (not allowing farm animals to visit occasionally-I'd love to =
take a=20
couple of my silkies for the kids to see!), and do not have rules that =
would=20
help us (they allow resellers &amp; far too many crafters, &amp; people =
who sell=20
socks-go figure!!!).&nbsp;&nbsp; It also has alot of problems with =
keeping=20
market managers-lots of favoritism&nbsp;&amp;&nbsp;cat-fights among the =
women=20
vendors-I hate this!&nbsp; (Makes me want to get my farmstand built =
&amp; CSA=20
going, but can't do it this soon.)&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">I don't want to run a market-I'm a =

farmer.&nbsp;&nbsp;But then I need the market to stay a =
farmer!&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">Very frustrated,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">Liz Pike<BR>Morningstar=20
Gardens<BR>Pollocksville, North Carolina</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF69DA.558AA5C0--


From marc@aculink.net Fri Jan 28 21:56:02 2000
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Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 19:50:05 -0700
From: Marc & Marcy <marc@aculink.net>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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..snip..
>  Oh, and another intersting thing about Fedco is
> that they code every seed to let you know whether the company or farm - be
> it a small farm or a huge one - is involved in genetic manipulation.

..snip..

That could be tens of thousands of codes per pound of seeds.
The writing must be quite teeny!

Marc

From pike@always-online.com Fri Jan 28 22:10:01 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
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References: <LYR99061-34051-2000.01.28-07.03.16--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34238-2000.01.28-21.56.01--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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> > that they code every seed to let you know whether the company or farm...

> That could be tens of thousands of codes per pound of seeds.
> The writing must be quite teeny!
>
> Marc

Very funny, Marc.  I can just see us all, farmers across the land, sitting
among packages of seeds with enormous magnifying glasses.  We'd all go
cross-eyed!  And the day after, all those supposed-to-be-straight farm
rows...okay, enough, I'm going to bed now, (hic, hysterical, hic, giggle,
oops layoff that strawberry wine, save some for next snowstorm, hic!)

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina


From tcervinka@hotmail.com Fri Jan 28 22:36:46 2000
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From: "Tanya Cervinka" <tcervinka@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Fwd: Sunflowers
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 19:37:04 PST
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Regarding good varieties of sunflowers for cut flowers, I've been most 
impressed with Valentine and Sonja in terms how many actual harvestable 
stems they produce and because as a floral designer droopy heads frustrate 
me.  For someone just starting out variety trials might be a good idea, to 
see what grows in your area, and I would recommend making sure the varities 
tried are pollenless.  Both of these varieties are available from Johnny's.

Tanya Cervinka

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From blevy@rsocsun.tamu.edu Fri Jan 28 22:37:30 2000
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--------------B72F86E480A2428502AAC1E3
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Hi Elizabeth -
I'm just curious - what are your feelings about the potential for the
bridge diversion to actually boost downtown businesses and bring in more
intentional shoppers? And would you consider locating a market downtown
as part of that growth, if it seemed like a good move? How salvageable
do you think the downtown is? Does it have charm, old buildings,
anything?

Elizabeth Pike wrote:

>   I have some questions to ask for those of you connected with
> farmer's markets. Our little market is located downtown, in the
> historic district-more tourists than residents (you cook when you go
> on vacation don't you ;^/ ??)   I drove back down there today to do
> some thinking. Have any of you started your own farmer's market, or
> manage/managed one? Are any of you connected with private farmer's
> markets, and is there such a thing? I have access to several
> commercial properties on which to start a new market.  The locations
> are close to the major shopping area (yes, we only have one!), which
> pulls from 4 counties.  They're close to several, major, affluent
> neighborhoods.   The city supports the one downtown, just barely, just
> so they can appease the other businesses, and say see?  We're trying
> to build traffic downtown.  A major blow to the area came this past
> fall when a $125 million bridge project opened, deflecting all
> incoming traffic into the downtown-no impulse shoppers now.  I don't
> know to what extent it will affect the fm, but it must affect it. From
> a consumer's viewpoint (mom with kids), a new location, where I'd like
> to put one, would entice me to shop at a fm.  Convenience is the name
> of the game these days & I feel we farmers at this particular fm are
> missing out on alot of sales/potential customers.  The city-run fm has
> rules that tie the hands of the farmers (not allowing farm animals to
> visit occasionally-I'd love to take a couple of my silkies for the
> kids to see!), and do not have rules that would help us (they allow
> resellers & far too many crafters, & people who sell socks-go
> figure!!!).   It also has alot of problems with keeping market
> managers-lots of favoritism & cat-fights among the women vendors-I
> hate this!  (Makes me want to get my farmstand built & CSA going, but
> can't do it this soon.) I don't want to run a market-I'm a farmer.
> But then I need the market to stay a farmer! Very frustrated, Liz Pike
>
> Morningstar Gardens
> Pollocksville, North Carolina



--------------B72F86E480A2428502AAC1E3
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
<BODY BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">
Hi Elizabeth -
<BR>I'm just curious - what are your feelings about the potential for the
bridge diversion to actually boost downtown businesses and bring in more
intentional shoppers? And would you consider locating a market downtown
as part of that growth, if it seemed like a good move? How salvageable
do you think the downtown is? Does it have charm, old buildings, anything?

<P>Elizabeth Pike wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;<STYLE></STYLE>
<FONT FACE="Saturday Sans ICG">I
have some questions to ask for those of you connected with farmer's markets.</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT FACE="Saturday Sans ICG">Our
little market is located downtown, in the historic district-more tourists
than residents (you cook when you go on vacation don't you ;^/ ??)&nbsp;&nbsp;
I drove back down there today to do some thinking.</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT FACE="Saturday Sans ICG">Have
any of you started your own farmer's market, or manage/managed one?</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT FACE="Saturday Sans ICG">Are
any of you connected with private farmer's markets, and is there such a
thing?</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT FACE="Saturday Sans ICG">I have access to several
commercial properties on which to start a new market.&nbsp; The locations
are close to the major shopping area (yes, we only have one!), which pulls
from 4 counties.&nbsp; They're close to several, major, affluent neighborhoods.&nbsp;&nbsp;
The city supports the one downtown, just barely, just so they can appease
the other businesses, and say see?&nbsp; We're trying to build traffic
downtown.&nbsp; A major blow to the area came this past fall when a $125
million bridge project opened, deflecting all incoming traffic into the
downtown-no impulse shoppers now.&nbsp; I don't know to what extent it
will affect the fm, but it must affect it.</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT FACE="Saturday Sans ICG">From
a consumer's viewpoint (mom with kids), a new location, where I'd like
to put one, would entice me to shop at a fm.&nbsp; Convenience is the name
of the game these days &amp; I feel we farmers at this particular fm are
missing out on alot of sales/potential customers.&nbsp; The city-run fm
has rules that tie the hands of the farmers (not allowing farm animals
to visit occasionally-I'd love to take a couple of my silkies for the kids
to see!), and do not have rules that would help us (they allow resellers
&amp; far too many crafters, &amp; people who sell socks-go figure!!!).&nbsp;&nbsp;
It also has alot of problems with keeping market managers-lots of favoritism
&amp; cat-fights among the women vendors-I hate this!&nbsp; (Makes me want
to get my farmstand built &amp; CSA going, but can't do it this soon.)</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT FACE="Saturday Sans ICG">I
don't want to run a market-I'm a farmer.&nbsp; But then I need the market
to stay a farmer!</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT FACE="Saturday Sans ICG">Very frustrated,</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT FACE="Saturday Sans ICG">Liz
Pike</FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Saturday Sans ICG">Morningstar Gardens</FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Saturday Sans ICG">Pollocksville, North Carolina</FONT>&nbsp;</BLOCKQUOTE>
&nbsp;
</BODY>
</HTML>

--------------B72F86E480A2428502AAC1E3--


From cappy@harborside.com Fri Jan 28 23:24:33 2000
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Subject: Marketing concerns


Hello Everyone,

What a great discussion forum!  Lots of great ideas, 
support, networking and kinship.

I write a marketing column for the Capital Press 
Agriculture Weekly (published Fridays in Salem, Oregon, 
distributed to Oregon, Washington, Idaho, California). 

The column, "Fresh New Ideas" is targeted to small 
farms and specialty food companies.

Some of you know me through the CSA discussion forum 
@prairienet.com

Hats off to all of you for the long hours and hard work 
you do.  I'm really impressed!

I would appreciate hearing from you (you can simply 
e-mail me directly) with your marketing concerns.  What 
kind of marketing questions and needs do you have?   
What works best for you?  What do you stay away from?

Listening is the most important thing in my work.  I'll 
never run out of topics to cover in my column, and I 
like to keep on top of things and help address what's  
important to people.  I'm more than happy to share 
ideas and chat more about marketing.

Thanks for your input.  Hope this is a great year for 
everyone!

Cappy (Capella) Tosetti
on the Oregon coast

cappy@harborside.com

www.bumpercropmarketing.com   I'm a conference speaker 
on marketing.  My website site explains more on this 
and has some informative LINKS.  I'm about to add more 
on associations, these Internet discussion groups. In 
no way am I trying to promote my speaking engagements - 
the calendar is filling up nicely.  Instead, I'm simply 
inviting an exchange of ideas on the subject of 
marketing.  The website gives you an idea of who I am. 
Thanks again!




From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Sat Jan 29 07:18:41 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Hoop house plans
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 07:18:32 -0800
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Fred and I purchased the Frazier plans.  They're very easy to read and easy
to follow, especially for non-builder types (me and Fred)!

We got all the materials and sited the PVC house.  Now, as soon as the
ground thaws, we'll finish.

I spoke to Jack Frazier on the phone a few weeks ago and he told me that one
of the purposes he he uses it for is overwintering spinach!

Sounds good to me.

Rose


From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Sat Jan 29 07:29:40 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Help with irrigation and mulch
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 07:29:31 -0800
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Hi, folks.

Two topics I need clarity on:  Irrigation and Mulches.

I have a 2.5 acre (expanding to 3 to 5) tilled piece devoted mainly to
cutflowers.  This was tilled last year.  But this is the first year we're
planting it all.

I need some advice and counsel on drip irrigation and mulches.

For instance, will a drip irrigation system for 2.5 to 5 acres incapacitate
a submersible well?

As far as mulching goes, I'm thinking of straw.  Any ideas?

Thanks,

Rose


From CAVM@aol.com Sat Jan 29 07:37:08 2000
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Subject: Re: Help with irrigation and mulch
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Rose,

If you are asking if the well will provide enough water for drip irrigation, 
it depends on the capacity of your well.  If you are asking if the drip 
irrigation will pollute the well, it depends on the type of soil on your land 
but it is unlikely to leach fertilizer and pesticide into a deep well.

As for straw mulch, you may have a problem with weed seeds.  Straw is just 
taken from the fields after harvesting the crop.  It is not cleaned at all in 
my area so I doubt if it can be declared weed free anywhere.  You might 
consider some of the work done by USDA in using various colored plastic 
mulches on different crops.  No weeds, less watering and might even enhance 
the productivity of the crop.

Good luck

Cornelius A. Van Milligen
Kentucky Enrichment Inc
Soil Amendments 

From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Sat Jan 29 08:24:21 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Help with irrigation and mulch
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:24:04 -0800
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Hi, Cornelius.  Thanks for your response.

As far as the capacity of the well, we don't know yet because it isn't there
yet.  But in this area drilled wells are often a minimum of 8 gal/min.  It
could easily go higher.  But one never knows.

My problem is that I don't know how much water a drip irrigation system
demands and in what times - gal/min.

As far as hurting the well with contaminants, that won't happen since we
grow everything organically - flowers included.

So, I guess I need to understand the mechanics of a drip irrigation system
and how much water it calls for.

Thanks,

Rose


From goodows@excite.com Sat Jan 29 08:38:54 2000
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Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 05:17:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley <goodows@excite.com>
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Rose,
Get the Drip Works catalogue. It is full of info your need to do irrigation
including how to calculate your well capacity. I believe the website is
dripworks.com. We are irrigating our 5 acres for the first time this season.
We are also on a well and don't anticipate any problems.

Mulch, I love straw mulch and have not had weed problems because of straw.
We use certified organic straw from a local grower we know (he also supplies
our chicken feed and hay). We used IRT mulch last year but for tomatoes I
will go back to straw. We will still use the plastic for early tomatoes,
eggplant, peppers, green beans and sweet corn but straw for tomatoes,
potatoes, leeks.
Don't use hay for mulch unless you want weeds as hay is just a mix of
grasses and legumes generally most with seed heads arttatched. Straw should
have few to no seedheads as it has been threshed before bailing. if the
field had a weed problem than you could have weeds but than again you can
break bales open before buying to see if they contain weeds-not all the
bales but a few samples. This is good if you are buying hay to see if there
is any mold buried in the bales.
>  


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





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From pike@always-online.com Sat Jan 29 08:50:51 2000
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Subject: Re: Help with irrigation and mulch
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Rose, if I were you, I'd go with green manures.  They mulch, fertilize &
build humus in your soil.  And you avoid the usual problems with other
mulches such as weed seeds.  Personally, I think green manures are easier to
plant, than mulch is to spread, though I do use a combination of both
depending on the crop.   Johnny's & Peaceful Valley Farm Supply sell many
types (& possibly your local farm supply).  I usually sow them 4-5 weeks
after I've planted a crop of whatever.  Clovers are great for those growing
veggies-they bring in pollinators.

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina


From pike@always-online.com Sat Jan 29 09:04:26 2000
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Subject: Re: Sunflowers
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:05:57 -0500
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From: Tanya Cervinka > Regarding good varieties of sunflowers for cut
flowers, I've been most  impressed with Valentine and Sonja in terms how
many actual harvestable  stems they produce and because as a floral designer
droopy heads frustrate me.

Droopy flowers-this is another point I forgot to cover.  I wait to cut my
flowers when the heads are upright, on a clear day, a little cloudy or
overcast & they hang their heads a bit, so I don't cut them.

I love Valentine, and will be trying Sonja's sister this
spring-Soraya-supposed to have 20-25 flowers per plant, long stems, 4-6"
heads-I hope Johnny's is correct!

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina


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Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 06:05:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley <goodows@excite.com>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Help with irrigation and mulch
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On Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:52:19 -0500, market farming wrote:

>  Rose, if I were you, I'd go with green manures.  They mulch, fertilize &
>  build humus in your soil.  And you avoid the usual problems with other
>  mulches such as weed seeds.  Personally, I think green manures are easier
to
>  plant, than mulch is to spread, though I do use a combination of both
>  depending on the crop.   Johnny's & Peaceful Valley Farm Supply sell many
>  types (& possibly your local farm supply).  I usually sow them 4-5 weeks
>  after I've planted a crop of whatever.  Clovers are great for those
growing
>  veggies-they bring in pollinators.

There some crops that need a straw or plastic mulch.  All of the nightshades
(except spuds) seem very sensitive to soil born diseases which green manures
cannot control because even though they cut down on erosion there is still
soil exposed and rain/watering will cause the soil to splash up on the
plants (not as much as bare soil but there will still be some splashing) and
the spread of soil born diseases can start happening. 
>  A heavy  straw mulch will prevent this and also keep a lot of moisture in
the soil and also add lots of organic matter over the season . plastic
mulches will keep the diseases at bay and keep moisture in but they do
nothing to build the soil up and i am at a loss of how to dispose of all the
plastic. Some of ours goes to a charity Haunted forest we help out with
(black plastic hung from trees in a dark forest is amazingly scary, spent
row covers make excellent ghosts, but the waste problem is still there and
the owners of the forest I assume landfill the plastic we leave there).
2 other crops I grow that need straw are celery and leeks for the blanching
effect. I could pile up soil around the plants but straw leaves them so much
cleaner and is easier to use than digging dirt.

Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





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From guldann@ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 29 09:20:10 2000
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From: "Hook Family" <guldann@ix.netcom.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-34243-2000.01.28-22.36.45--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98960-34321-2000.01.29-09.04.26--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject:  Sunflowers
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:23:56 -0800
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With the high cost of sunflower seeds I have a question.  Are all the
varieties that you have been discussing hybrids?  I was thinking if not some
seeds could be saved.  I had many volunteer sunflowers come up last year,
but of course I am not trying to get a large quantity to supply farmer's
market.  Beth


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References: <LYR98960-34254-2000.01.28-23.24.32--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Marketing concerns
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:16:14 -0800
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Hi Cappy, I decided to ask this question to the list because I think the
answer would be helpful.  Since its winter and because we are taking a
business class, in which I am learning I have a lot to learn.  I am aware
there is a whole field of marketing psychology I think grocery stores and
their suppliers try to us it ie: colors of boxes, where on shelf, music in
background etc.  Well there must be similar tips for setting up your
farmer's market booth or a farm stand.  So when a customer walks in they
immediately think wow nice place must have good vegetables.  Thanks Beth
----- Original Message -----
From: <cappy@harborside.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
> Listening is the most important thing in my work.  I'll
> never run out of topics to cover in my column, and I
> like to keep on top of things and help address what's
> important to people.  I'm more than happy to share
> ideas and chat more about marketing.
>
> Thanks for your input.  Hope this is a great year for
> everyone!
>
> Cappy (Capella) Tosetti
> on the Oregon coast



From goodows@excite.com Sat Jan 29 09:53:17 2000
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Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 06:49:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley <goodows@excite.com>
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On Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:16:14 -0800, market farming wrote:

>  Hi Cappy, I decided to ask this question to the list because I think the
>  answer would be helpful.  Since its winter and because we are taking a
>  business class, in which I am learning I have a lot to learn.  I am aware
>  there is a whole field of marketing psychology I think grocery stores and
>  their suppliers try to us it ie: colors of boxes, where on shelf, music
in
>  background etc.  Well there must be similar tips for setting up your
>  farmer's market booth or a farm stand.  So when a customer walks in they
>  immediately think wow nice place must have good vegetables.  Thanks Beth

Eric Gibson's book "Sell What You Sow" has alot on this topic. I have not
read the book but I have attended several workshops of his (based on this
book) in the past and I remember things like using descriptive cards, have
things priced (I use a dry erase board but it may be more effective to put
price cards with each kind of veggie). Never place anything of worth on the
ground. Customers assume the higher in the air something is the more it is
worth (just below eye level is the most expensive in the stores). Which
brings us to having at least 3 levels on your stand-this is eye catching and
can be a real money maker.
Also think about traffic patterns at your farmer's market stand. Last year
we expiremented with this. For a while we had our two table set up so they
were side by side with an isle running between them. We had an EZup shelter
over top and a fake oriental rug as the "floor". People did not like this
set up as they always stayed out at the edges of our stand and seem shy
about approaching us. Than we changed so the tables were set up end to end
so they ran in a line perpendicular to our truck. we sat on one side and
customers bought things on the other side, EZup shelter over 2/3 of the
table space.  Attendance picked up and lots of people comment postively on
the change and had no problem coming into our area.
Another thing Mr Gibson points out is cheap prices usually make folks wonder
what is wrong with your product so You might as well keep the price on the
high end.

Psychology of marketing is a very interesting topic and far more important
than most people think
>  


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





_______________________________________________________
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From sojournr@missouri.org Sat Jan 29 09:56:24 2000
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Lucy Goodman-Owsley wrote:
> 
> Don't use hay for mulch unless you want weeds as hay is just a mix of
> grasses and legumes generally most with seed heads arttatched. Straw should
> have few to no seedheads as it has been threshed before bailing.

Oat straw is full of seeds, I don't know why, I guess the threshing is
more difficult than for wheat or rice.  Not that that should be a
problem if you use enough mulch.

I've never had a problem using hay for mulch either (see below).  YMMV

> if the
> field had a weed problem than you could have weeds but than again you can
> break bales open before buying to see if they contain weeds-not all the
> bales but a few samples. This is good if you are buying hay to see if there
> is any mold buried in the bales.

Mold in hay used for mulch should make no difference whatsoever (unless
you're allergic to molds).  The best garden I ever had was mulched in
moldy hay thrown out by the horse stable nearby.  No weed problem,
either.  On the other hand, if you're paying for it, moldy hay should
certainly COST less.

I've used both straw and hay for deep mulching (not a little thin layer)
and it quite thoroughly smothers out the vast majority of weeds.  What
little might manage to get a start is easily uprooted - if the mulch is
laid on there thick enough.  Deep mulching doesn't lend itself to
mechanical means of weed control, unless someone out there smarter than
me has come up with a means to do it (which is entirely likely - there
being someone smarter than me out there I mean <VBG>).  But a weed whip
will surely take care of whatever few weeds manage to root into the
mulch quickly and easily even on a larger area than the 50x50 garden I
had.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From sojournr@missouri.org Sat Jan 29 10:00:54 2000
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Subject: Re: Sunflowers
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Hook Family wrote:
> 
> With the high cost of sunflower seeds I have a question.  Are all the
> varieties that you have been discussing hybrids?  I was thinking if not some
> seeds could be saved.  I had many volunteer sunflowers come up last year,
> but of course I am not trying to get a large quantity to supply farmer's
> market.  Beth

I've been wondering as well, since sunflowers are so easy to save seed
for (compared to say, tomatoes, which is a messy process).

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From mayorsson1@hotmail.com Sat Jan 29 10:03:48 2000
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From: "Edward Marshall" <mayorsson1@hotmail.com>
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Cut Flower Subscriptions
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:04:03 EST
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Hello Folks, We have been growing cut flowers for farmers' mkts, and have 
recently become interested in selling a subscription for bouquets, or 
individual stems.  This could be delivered or pick-your-own at the farm, at 
a reduced price.  The PYO would involve a little education on how to cut the 
flowers and post harvest treatment, but beyond that might be more profitable 
in the end.  Is anyone doing this, and does anyone have any pricing 
information available?  Any ideas on liability insurance?  Jen Henn, Edward 
Marshall Union Grove, NC
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From pike@always-online.com Sat Jan 29 10:04:02 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: farmers' markets
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:05:20 -0500
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Betsy wrote:
>Hi Elizabeth - I'm just curious - what are your feelings about the =
potential for the bridge diversion to actually boost downtown businesses =
and bring in more intentional shoppers? And would you consider locating =
a market downtown as part of that growth, if it seemed like a good move? =
How salvageable do you think the downtown is? Does it have charm, old =
buildings, anything? <

The shoppers need to be local, meaning they have kitchens to cook the =
produce.  The bridge diverted locals, which means the only ones coming =
downtown are tourists.  The shops are all touristy-very few locals shop =
them.  The downtown is made up of historic homes renovated by the type =
of clientele who buy from farmer's markets, along with 2 marinas, =
residents of which come to buy, too.  And as happens in lots of cities, =
this good, small, area is surrounded by a much larger area where the =
type of clientele would rather have crack than a good tomato ; ).  I'm a =
farmer.  It isn't my job to revitalize the downtown.  I need the sales & =
staying put, just because this is where the only farmer's market is & =
this is the way it's always been done, just feels like I'm shooting =
myself in the foot. =20

Where are your markets located?  Are they under cover or do you provide =
your own cover?  Do any of you participate in co-op produce stores, =
where you bring in your produce, and it's sold like a grocery store, =
meaning you don't have to be present to accept sales?  I've seen this =
done at a small store in Riverdale, GA.  A co-op of farmers got together =
& opened a store stocked with their farm products-produce, jams, =
jellies, bread, landscape plants, etc.  If it was produced on the farm, =
it was allowed to be sold.  Shoppers shopped just like a grocery store.  =
I know this removes the farmer's face from his products.  I'd love to =
figure out a way to implement a similar idea with the farmers hanging =
around-maybe by rotating staffing the store.  Excuse the =
ramblings...just looking for alternatives to bring farmers' markets (at =
least my farmer's market) into the 21st century!

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina

------=_NextPart_000_0068_01BF6A40.59E82320
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3401" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">
<DIV>Betsy wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>&gt;Hi Elizabeth - I'm just curious - what are your feelings about =
the=20
potential for the bridge diversion to actually boost downtown businesses =
and=20
bring in more intentional shoppers? And would you consider locating a =
market=20
downtown as part of that growth, if it seemed like a good move? How =
salvageable=20
do you think the downtown is? Does it have charm, old buildings, =
anything?=20
&lt;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The shoppers need to be local, meaning they have kitchens to cook =
the=20
produce.&nbsp; The bridge diverted locals, which means the only ones =
coming=20
downtown are tourists.&nbsp; The shops are all touristy-very few locals =
shop=20
them.&nbsp;&nbsp;The downtown is made up of historic homes renovated by =
the type=20
of clientele who buy from farmer's markets, along with 2 marinas, =
residents of=20
which come to buy, too.&nbsp; And as happens in lots of cities, this =
good,=20
small, area is surrounded by a much larger area where the type of=20
clientele&nbsp;would rather have crack than a good tomato ; ).&nbsp; I'm =
a=20
farmer.&nbsp; It isn't my job to revitalize the downtown.&nbsp; I need =
the sales=20
&amp; staying put, just because this is where the only farmer's market =
is &amp;=20
this is the way it's always been done, just feels like I'm shooting =
myself in=20
the foot.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Where are your markets located?&nbsp;&nbsp;Are they under cover or =
do you=20
provide your own cover?&nbsp; Do any of you participate in co-op produce =
stores,=20
where you bring in your produce, and it's sold like a grocery store, =
meaning you=20
don't have to be present to accept sales?&nbsp; I've seen this done at a =
small=20
store in Riverdale, GA.&nbsp; A co-op of&nbsp;farmers got together &amp; =
opened=20
a store stocked with their farm products-produce, jams, jellies, bread,=20
landscape plants, etc.&nbsp; If it was produced on the farm, it was =
allowed to=20
be sold.&nbsp; Shoppers shopped just like a grocery store.&nbsp; I know =
this=20
removes the farmer's face from his products.&nbsp; I'd love to figure =
out a way=20
to implement a similar idea with the farmers hanging around-maybe by =
rotating=20
staffing the store.&nbsp; Excuse the ramblings...just looking for =
alternatives=20
to bring farmers' markets (at least my farmer's market) into the 21st=20
century!</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Liz Pike<BR>Morningstar Gardens<BR>Pollocksville, North=20
Carolina</DIV></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0068_01BF6A40.59E82320--


From sojournr@missouri.org Sat Jan 29 10:19:22 2000
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> Elizabeth Pike wrote:
> 
> The shoppers need to be local, meaning they have kitchens to cook the
> produce.  The bridge diverted locals, which means the only ones coming
> downtown are tourists.  The shops are all touristy-very few locals
> shop them.  The downtown is made up of historic homes renovated by the
> type of clientele who buy from farmer's markets, along with 2 marinas,
> residents of which come to buy, too.  And as happens in lots of
> cities, this good, small, area is surrounded by a much larger area
> where the type of clientele would rather have crack than a good tomato
> ; ).  I'm a farmer.  It isn't my job to revitalize the downtown.  I
> need the sales & staying put, just because this is where the only
> farmer's market is & this is the way it's always been done, just feels
> like I'm shooting myself in the foot.

It's tough enough, IMHO, to grow the stuff without having to solve the
problems of the cities we left behind as well.  <VBG>

The problem is that many of these "farmer's markets" that are run under
the aegis of a city governing body frequently end up being the sort of
mess you described (with the infighting, the flea-market atmosphere,
etc.).  The city isn't trying to provide a service, they're trying to
control the situation.  They're not interested in the farmer or his
sales or his customers, but only in sweeping the barn leavings into a
corner where they can be ignored.  (Well, not quite that harsh,
hopefully you know what I mean).

So the city isn't going to solve the problem because they ARE the
problem.  And you trying to solve the city's problem would be like
trying to teach the pig to sing - it'll frustrate you and only annoy the
pig.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From bchenkel@conpoint.com Sat Jan 29 10:22:21 2000
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What is an EZup  cover - does this supply shade?  Does it come in several sizes?  Does it
give shade for customers or just the table?  Where are they available?  Bev.

Lucy Goodman-Owsley wrote:

> On Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:16:14 -0800, market farming wrote:
>
> >  Hi Cappy, I decided to ask this question to the list because I think the
> >  answer would be helpful.  Since its winter and because we are taking a
> >  business class, in which I am learning I have a lot to learn.  I am aware
> >  there is a whole field of marketing psychology I think grocery stores and
> >  their suppliers try to us it ie: colors of boxes, where on shelf, music
> in
> >  background etc.  Well there must be similar tips for setting up your
> >  farmer's market booth or a farm stand.  So when a customer walks in they
> >  immediately think wow nice place must have good vegetables.  Thanks Beth
>
> Eric Gibson's book "Sell What You Sow" has alot on this topic. I have not
> read the book but I have attended several workshops of his (based on this
> book) in the past and I remember things like using descriptive cards, have
> things priced (I use a dry erase board but it may be more effective to put
> price cards with each kind of veggie). Never place anything of worth on the
> ground. Customers assume the higher in the air something is the more it is
> worth (just below eye level is the most expensive in the stores). Which
> brings us to having at least 3 levels on your stand-this is eye catching and
> can be a real money maker.
> Also think about traffic patterns at your farmer's market stand. Last year
> we expiremented with this. For a while we had our two table set up so they
> were side by side with an isle running between them. We had an EZup shelter
> over top and a fake oriental rug as the "floor". People did not like this
> set up as they always stayed out at the edges of our stand and seem shy
> about approaching us. Than we changed so the tables were set up end to end
> so they ran in a line perpendicular to our truck. we sat on one side and
> customers bought things on the other side, EZup shelter over 2/3 of the
> table space.  Attendance picked up and lots of people comment postively on
> the change and had no problem coming into our area.
> Another thing Mr Gibson points out is cheap prices usually make folks wonder
> what is wrong with your product so You might as well keep the price on the
> high end.
>
> Psychology of marketing is a very interesting topic and far more important
> than most people think
> >
>
> Lucy Goodman-Owsley
> Boulder Belt CSA
> New Paris, OH
> Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
> Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
> http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
> Want Social Change? Join a CSA!
>
> _______________________________________________________
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From goodows@excite.com Sat Jan 29 10:42:13 2000
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On Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:23:43 -0800, market farming wrote:

>  What is an EZup  cover - does this supply shade?  Does it come in several
sizes?  Does it
>  give shade for customers or just the table?  Where are they available? 
Bev.

They are basically tents with no sides and depending on the size of the
EZ-up and your stand they can shelter just the display or everything.
They range in size from 8'x8' to I believe 20'x20' and prices range from
$160 to $3,000. We got the cheapest one they make 3 years ago and will
probably get 2 more seasons out of it. The cheap ones you can get at Lowe's
or wal-mart, though wal-mart charges more.
For the more expensive models write to:
 A Steele and Co
W12351 Long Lane
Stockholm, WI 54769
1-800-693-3353

These are common at flea markets and other outdoor events-you know the white
peaked tents?
We got ours to protect the greens from the sun and found they are nice when
it rains too (which is seldom here in Ohio anymore)
>  


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





_______________________________________________________
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From pike@always-online.com Sat Jan 29 10:46:27 2000
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References: <LYR98963-34322-2000.01.29-09.06.28--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Help with mulch
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:47:32 -0500
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I agree Lucy.  The mulch really needs to complement whatever crop under
which it is being used.  I have no way to dispose of plastic, and to be
certified (which is pending), I must have the certification committee's
approval for whatever I use, & cannot use any plastic that's PVC-which
virtually eliminates most anything to which I have easy access.   The green
manures have improved my soil so much, I'd much rather use these wherever I
can.  I've had no soil borne disease problems, though weather related
blights are still a huge problem.  I underplant peppers & tomatos with dwarf
white clover, which here in the heat goes dormant in July, then I slip
corrugated cardboard under & around the plants, & keep it there until the
end of August.

I do use straw under potatos & will experiment this year with something I
discovered last year.  I sowed several patches of sweet alyssum which I use
to attract & harbor beneficials throughout the garden.  Volunteer potatos
grew up through one patch & none were attacked by potato beetles.  Whether
the beetles were confused by the alyssum or attacked by lady beetles I don't
know.  I will experiment again this year.

Which all goes to show, Ruth, farming is part science, part luck, which in
the end equals pure magic!

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina


From llami@teleport.com Sat Jan 29 10:47:02 2000
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Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 07:43:32 -0800
Subject: Re: Help with irrigation and mulch
From: Lee Lawton <llami@teleport.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Hello, I'm new here. What a great forum!

I haven't used green manures before. I use straw mulch and a no-till system.
I'd like to hear more about using the green manure right along with the
growing veggies. I've heard a lot about using green manures for
overwintering (I'm in Zone 8), but I don't know much about using them during
the growing season.

Thanks,

Lee Lawton
Over the Rainbow Farm
Junction City, Oregon

> From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
> Reply-To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:52:19 -0500
> To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
> Subject: Re: Help with irrigation and mulch
> 
> Rose, if I were you, I'd go with green manures.  They mulch, fertilize &
> build humus in your soil.  And you avoid the usual problems with other
> mulches such as weed seeds.  Personally, I think green manures are easier to
> plant, than mulch is to spread, though I do use a combination of both
> depending on the crop.   Johnny's & Peaceful Valley Farm Supply sell many
> types (& possibly your local farm supply).  I usually sow them 4-5 weeks
> after I've planted a crop of whatever.  Clovers are great for those growing
> veggies-they bring in pollinators.
> 
> Liz Pike
> Morningstar Gardens
> Pollocksville, North Carolina
> 
> 
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: llami@teleport.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
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From pike@always-online.com Sat Jan 29 10:59:56 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-34243-2000.01.28-22.36.45--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98960-34321-2000.01.29-09.04.26--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34324-2000.01.29-09.20.09--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re:  Sunflowers
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:01:31 -0500
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Beth wrote: >Are all the varieties that you have been discussing hybrids?  I
was thinking if not some seeds could be saved.  I had many volunteer
sunflowers come up last year<

Some are, some aren't.  I haven't saved any seed as I'm not sure if they
cross.  Don't want to take that chance so I order fresh each year.  The
volunteers are nice!  I sold all mine, that I didn't use myself!

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina



From pike@always-online.com Sat Jan 29 11:07:10 2000
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Subject: Re: Marketing concerns
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Lucy Goodman-Owsley:> Psychology of marketing is a very interesting topic
and far more important than most people think.<

This is the exact problem I'm having with our farmer's market.  The
marketing just isn't there.  Not necessarily traditional marketing like ads
and such, but marketing the "farm" part.  The vendors just don't get it.
This is what customers miss & enjoy immensely.  It's also why  state fairs
are so hugely popular-at least in our state!  (I love ours!)

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina



From pike@always-online.com Sat Jan 29 11:10:06 2000
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References: <LYR99136-34318-2000.01.29-08.38.54--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34328-2000.01.29-09.56.23--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Help with irrigation and mulch
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I think Lucy is wary of moldy hay from her horsey days : ).  I know when I
hear "moldy" hay I run!  (Though lately, I've actually been looking for
some!)

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina




From bchenkel@conpoint.com Sat Jan 29 11:27:42 2000
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Lucy - this email is just to you.  How do the EZup attach to the
ground.  Our market area is concrete.  Do the legs go into cement
blocks?  Bev.


From doodles@netins.net Sat Jan 29 11:35:09 2000
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Subject: Organic Trade Association press release against GMOs
From: "Ericka & Rich Dana" <doodles@netins.net>
To: JCNews <jcnews@yosemite.leepfrog.com>, orgaNicgrowing@egroups.com,
        Market Farming List <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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**************************************************************
News Release -
Contact:
Sylvia Tawse (303) 415-9778;
Lisa Bell (303) 247-1100;
Holly Givens/OTA (413) 774-5484
www.ota.com

For Immediate Release Holly Givens (413) 774-7511
*****************************************************
OTA calls for moratorium on using GMOs in agriculture
*****************************************************
GREENFIELD, Mass. (Jan. 14, 2000) - Citing the adverse impact of
genetically modified organisms (GMOs) on organic production, the Organic
Trade Association (OTA) is calling for a moratorium on the use of
genetically modified organisms (GMOs) in all agricultural
production.

"More independent research and regulation are necessary before any more
GMOs are allowed in agriculture. As long as GMOs continue to be allowed,
organic producers are at risk from background levels of GMOs," OTA said in a
position statement released today.

Genetic engineering works by moving DNA between species in ways that are
not possible in nature. The use of this technology in agriculture has the
potential to cause unintended effects on the environment and on human
health, OTA pointed out. Organic certification organizations already
prohibit the use of GMO seeds or other products of GMOs in organic
production.

Although the certified organic label means GMOs are not used, OTA noted
that some organic products could inadvertently contain small amounts of GMO
material from exposure to pollen from GMO crops in the field or incidental
GMO ingredients in processing. Minor ingredients made from corn or soy, in
particular, must be carefully sourced to avoid GMO by-products.

At the very minimum, OTA said, there should be mandatory labeling of GMO
foods, with the real goal of an outright, worldwide moratorium on GMO use in
all agriculture. "Labeling should apply to all genetically engineered
products destined for food-not only raw agricultural products but processing
enzymes, yeasts, extractions, and other genetically engineered minor
ingredients as well," OTA said in written comments submitted to the U.S.
Food and Drug Administration (FDA).

OTA pointed out that organic producers take great care to offer customers a
quality product with only the limited use of synthetic processing materials
or ingredients. "Now, producers are faced with not only the problem of
contamination in the field but, more fundamentally, even the inability to be
sure
they are choosing non-genetically engineered minor ingredients-because they
are not labeled. The burden of labeling should not be on the producers of
conventional or organic food.

They are not the ones introducing this new technology. The burden should be
on the companies seeking to market these novel products."

OTA also supports the consumer's right to know and to choose foods and
other products based on environmental, personal health, religious, dietary
or other preferences.

"Labeling of GMO products or products containing GMOs is necessary to
making these choices," OTA said.

In addition to urging FDA to adopt mandatory labeling for GMO foods, OTA
has requested that the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency halt the use of
GMOs, especially Bt plants. The comment to EPA was filed in response to
Monsanto's application for experimental use permits for three new strains of
Bt corn. Spelling out how Bt plants are harmful to organic agriculture, OTA
called the introduction of Bt plants without extensive scientific study
"irresponsible."

"Because of EPA's lack of oversight and consequent ignorance of the
negative effects of Bt plant pesticides, including the effects on non-target
species, EPA must now take significant steps to regain public confidence.
Until a transparent and scientifically rigorous process for setting
conditions for registration is established, these steps should include a
moratorium on the registration of genetically modified plant pesticides,"
OTA told EPA.

Urging EPA to immediately rescind the registrations of any low- or
moderate-dose plant pesticides, OTA added, "If EPA chooses not to enact a
moratorium on further registrations, it should require and monitor
scientifically sized refugia." Thus, at the very least, OTA wrote, EPA
should review and revise its policy regarding buffer zones, incorporate
independent ecological field studies, and insist on the creation of buffer
zones around Bt crops as part of the requirement for the use of Bt corn.

The Organic Trade Association (OTA) is the business association representing
the organic agriculture industry in North America. Its more than 1,000
members include growers, shippers, processors, certifiers, farmers'
associations, distributors, importers, exporters, consultants, retailers and
others. Founded in 1985, OTA encourages global sustainability through
promoting and protecting the growth of diverse organic trade.

***************************************************************************
For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the Ban-GEF list,
send email to Ban-GEF@lists.txinfinet.com with HELP in the SUBJECT line.  

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Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:31:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley <goodows@excite.com>
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On Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:11:40 -0500, market farming wrote:

>  I think Lucy is wary of moldy hay from her horsey days : ).  I know when
I
>  hear "moldy" hay I run!  (Though lately, I've actually been looking for
>  some!)
>  
Liz is indeed correct-I don't use hay for mulch (we had a nice
hemlock/thistle problem we are still dealing with from hay mulch) but will
compost the stuff. Mainly we buy hay for the chickens and moldy hay is not
fit for any livestock

If you need moldy hay go for those big rolls-farmer's will usually sell them
in a rotted/moldy state for about $4 to $10 per roll (these are ohio organic
prices BTW) and load them on your truck for you. If you are composting them
they need not be cert organic for organic farms.
>  


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





_______________________________________________________
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Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:26:20 -0800
Subject: Re: Marketing concerns
From: "Shelley Pasco" <whistle@halcyon.com>
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Hi Liz,
I think we've got a different situation up in our corner of the world. We've
got a huge demand for neighborhood farmers' markets, and not enough farmers
to fill them all up (yet). While many are run decently, there are a few in
Seattle that are run by one organization. These people really get it--the
marketing is there, the vendor support is there (i.e. keep crafts and
purchased goods out). By marketing, I'm talking about street banners,
sandwich boards on streetcorners for many blocks around the markets,
sometimes even radio time. Consequently the first of these markets is rated
as one of the best in the country--in the USA! They've all got waiting lists
for farmers so they'll be opening up one more next year. The organizers are
pursuing city and county money now to give them a push, and then it will be
very exciting to see what happens. Due in large part (I feel) to these
market organizers, the farmers' markets are very successful, and the local
government has been made aware that there is a need, a desire, and a reason
to keep local farming alive.
Shelley
Whistling Train Farm
Kent, WA

----------
>From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
>To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
>Subject: Re: Marketing concerns
>Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000, 8:08 AM
>

> Lucy Goodman-Owsley:> Psychology of marketing is a very interesting topic
> and far more important than most people think.<
>
> This is the exact problem I'm having with our farmer's market.  The
> marketing just isn't there.  Not necessarily traditional marketing like ads
> and such, but marketing the "farm" part.  The vendors just don't get it.
> This is what customers miss & enjoy immensely.  It's also why  state fairs
> are so hugely popular-at least in our state!  (I love ours!)
>
> Liz Pike
> Morningstar Gardens
> Pollocksville, North Carolina
>
>
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: whistle@halcyon.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
> 

From KWallie@aol.com Sat Jan 29 11:42:29 2000
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From: KWallie@aol.com
Message-ID: <92.c82d16.25c4727f@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:42:39 EST
Subject: Re: EZup
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In a message dated 1/29/00 10:28:18 AM Central Standard Time, 
bchenkel@conpoint.com writes:

<< How do the EZup attach to the
 ground.  Our market area is concrete.  Do the legs go into cement
 blocks?  Bev. >> 
 get your answers at:
 <A HREF="http://www.bobwhite.com/ezup/ezup.htm">Click here: Ez-Up

http://www.bobwhite.com/ezup/ezup.htm</A> 

E-Z Up shelters are extremely unique, as they do not require any tools or 
assembly to erect. There is no center pole to get in the way. For any type of 
activity an E-Z Up can be erected by two people under 60 seconds. Never again 
worry about hardware, ropes or perspiration. This is the easiest tent you 
will ever erect.  
 Fully Self-Contained
It's all here as a single unit. (Shown folded and stored in the E-Z Up Carry 
Bag), No loose parts....no assembly....no tools or ropes needed....It's all 
one piece!
E-Z Up Steel Frame
Built tough to last. High-strength large diameter plated tubing and 
aircraft-grade fasteners....E-Z Up Frames are built with quality 
craftsmanship....for years of rugged service.
Telescoping Legs
Manufactured from the finest Aircraft Aluminum. Simply extend and snap into 
place at adjustable heights from 5 - 7 feet.
Patented E-Z Up Folding Frames
Reinforced Scissor-Action "X" Trusses do most of the work for you.....simply 
expand the "X" Truss frame to its full size. Once the trusses have done their 
job, all you have to do is lock the corners in place, with a snap of a 
button, and raise the shelter to the desired height by extending the 
telescoping legs. It's injeniously simple. You can easily set up, or take 
down, an E-Z Up in less than 60 seconds.
   Durable Top
Select from standard color combinations or design a custom top from a rainbow 
of colors, we even have camo. The fabric is water, mildew and rot resistant. 
Plus, the top is securely fastened to the frame. The tops can be 
color-coordinated to your boat or RV for an upscale appearance. Canopies made 
to match team colors and coordinate with business logos are also popular. 
Custom colorsand lettering is also available. Business, service clubs and 
team names can be sewn onto E-Z Up tops. Silkscreening is available by quote.
More Information and Pricing
For additional information and net pricing about the complete line of E-Z Up 
products please write, telephone (214) 341-7227,  or to: 

Sportsman's Mercantile of Dallas
P.O. Box 550575
Dallas, Texas 75355          
Ofc: 214-341-7227
Fax: 214-343-1552 
E-Mail: ezup@bobwhite.com 
 
 


From goodows@excite.com Sat Jan 29 11:43:52 2000
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Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:43:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley <goodows@excite.com>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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On Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:29:16 -0800, market farming wrote:

>  Lucy - this email is just to you.  How do the EZup attach to the
>  ground.  Our market area is concrete.  Do the legs go into cement
>  blocks?  Bev.
>  
They come with spikes for setting up on grass/dirt but this won't work well
on concrete or asphalt so we use bungie cords to tie the EZ-up to the truck
on one end and parking meters on the other. One market we sell at has a
concrete surface but with cracks in it and we put the spikes through the
cracks with no damage to the concrete. We have also hauled around buckets of
sand (about 80lbs ea.) and tied the legs to the buckets. If the winds are
above 25mph to 30mph we usually just take the thing down because those winds
have been known to either lift the shelter off the ground violently enough
to pull the spikes out of the ground ot rip the covering off of the shelter,
leaving only the frame. Fortunately we don't have those kinds of winds too
often. I believe for a lot more than we paid they make an EZ-up that will
withstand 40mph winds. More expensive models may have much better tiedown
systems too, I don't know-we got the cheapest one they make and it works for
us well.
>  


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





_______________________________________________________
Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite
Visit http://freeworld.excite.com


From SCook21809@aol.com Sat Jan 29 12:04:54 2000
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From: SCook21809@aol.com
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Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:05:03 EST
Subject: Re:A Singing Pig:
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<< So the city isn't going to solve the problem because they ARE the problem. 
 And you trying to solve the city's problem would be like trying to teach the 
pig to sing - it'll frustrate you and only annoy the pig. >>

    A "Them Vs Us" mentality is what gets us swept into a corner and 
forgotten.  The Washington State Farmers' Market Association requires all 
framers' markets to have growers make up more than 50% of its venders.  The 
City of Bainbridge Island built a world class "Market Square" as part of its 
new city hall campus this year.  But only after local growers attended many 
Council, and Committee meetings.  Board members of our local farmers' market 
assoc. sit on the boards of downtown business associations.  Small growers 
need to learn to be politically active or accept being politically 
disenfranchised.  The squeaky wheel gets the grease and some pigs can sing. 

Art Biggert
Ocean Sky Farm
Bainbridge Island, WA


From rbfarr@erols.com Sat Jan 29 12:13:38 2000
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Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:15:25 -0500
From: Robert Farr <rbfarr@erols.com>
Reply-To: rbfarr@erols.com
Organization: The Chile Man, inc.
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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I have a shelter - tent - similar to an EZ-Up.

To make it stand on concret, I hang cinder blocks from bungi cords,
attached at the welded frame points.

Works like a charm; won't blow away in even heavy winds.

If leaving the tent up overnight, I lower it to its lowest setting -
about three feet.

Just joined this list - referred from SANET.  I have 10 acres out in
Loudoun County, VA, farming about 1 (organically) right now; increasing
to 2 next year.

We grow peppers - picked more than 40,000 last year; aiming for 150,000
this year - and make and sell hot sauce as The Chile Man
(www.chileman.com coming soon!).

I've been on this list two days - and already have amassed some great
info!  An excellent group -

Robert.




From guldann@ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 29 12:14:13 2000
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From: "Hook Family" <guldann@ix.netcom.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98960-34357-2000.01.29-11.43.50--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: EZup
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:17:09 -0800
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another source for EZup Northern Tool and Equipment Co. 1-800-533-5545
www.northerntool.com

Prices range from approx. 125-500


From guldann@ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 29 12:18:03 2000
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References: <LYR99215-34356-2000.01.29-11.42.28--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98960-34362-2000.01.29-12.13.38--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: peppers
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Ah a pepper expert!  I love to grow peppers I think they are a beautiful
plant.  Last year I tried to grow a yellow and an orange bell pepper, never
turned.  I suspect they just ran out of time ie I didn't get them in ground
early enough, but I actually don't remember.  I also bought a six pack of
chocolate peppers they never changed either.  Last year was dry.  Any
suggestions?  Thanks Beth

> We grow peppers - picked more than 40,000 last year; aiming for 150,000
> this year - and make and sell hot sauce as The Chile Man
> (www.chileman.com coming soon!).
>
> I've been on this list two days - and already have amassed some great
> info!  An excellent group -
>
> Robert.
>
>
>
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: guldann@ix.netcom.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>


From doodles@netins.net Sat Jan 29 12:26:01 2000
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Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:25:18 -0800
Subject: Marketing the "FARM" part
From: "Ericka & Rich Dana" <doodles@netins.net>
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One thing that helps us with this aspect is a CATNIP FARM '98 (titled across
the top) poster I made with about 20 color 4x6 pictures nicely matted and
mounted on it for people to look at if they want to. Early and later in the
season it fills up space if our table offerings are limited, otherwise we
keep it handy and pull it out when folks start asking questions like "what
kind of chickens do you have?" or "how did you grow this?".

So even though our farm is 50 miles from our customers, they can see what it
looks like. I originally made the poster for our display at a farm
conference 2 winters ago, but I covered it with clear vinyl and it has held
up well. I take it with me to group meetings when I'm invited to speak on
CSA/farming and there is no A/V equipment, and my restaurant people (chefs
and cooks) like to look at it too. It's easier for them to look at than a
book or pile of pictures, but bulkier to carry around.

Ericka, Catnip Farm
--The Mighty Oak was once a little nut that held its ground.
----------
>From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
>To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
>Subject: Re: Marketing concerns
>Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000, 8:08 AM
>
> Lucy Goodman-Owsley:> Psychology of marketing is a very interesting topic
> and far more important than most people think.<
>
> This is the exact problem I'm having with our farmer's market.  The
> marketing just isn't there.  Not necessarily traditional marketing like ads
> and such, but marketing the "farm" part.  The vendors just don't get it.
> This is what customers miss & enjoy immensely.  It's also why  state fairs
> are so hugely popular-at least in our state!  (I love ours!)
>
> Liz Pike
> Morningstar Gardens
> Pollocksville, North Carolina

From pike@always-online.com Sat Jan 29 12:31:54 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
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References: <LYR98963-34360-2000.01.29-12.04.53--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Re:A Singing Pig:
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:33:20 -0500
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Art >some pigs can sing.<

And they'll be singing my song when I'm through.

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina


From whistle@halcyon.com Sat Jan 29 12:53:30 2000
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Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:45:22 -0800
Subject: Re: peppers
From: "Shelley Pasco" <whistle@halcyon.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Beth,
Try "Islander" from Johnny's It starts out a beautiful lavender 
color--that's its green phase. They'll ripen to red if you give them time,
and they'll do it earlier than most bells. It's kind of pricey, but very
dependable for me, zone 7. Also "Gypsy", a banana-type, is very very
productive, sweet even when green, and ripens really dependably to red here.
Not a bell, but it tastes better and it's beautiful. Once they get going we
have more than we know what to do with, which is nice for a tropical plant.
I do "Apple" from Johnny's as well, as a sweet pepper. "Sugarchile" from
Johnny's is a great pepper that is really sweet and just a little hot, and
it's big and red. Draws attention, subscribers love them because they're not
too hot. (I like them for the same reason). I like the Bulgarian Carrot and
Cherry Bomb here, because they'll ripen in a greenhouse, and they're more
productive than others I've tried. And they're pretty.
Shelley
Whistling Train Farm
Kent, WA

----------
>From: "Hook Family" <guldann@ix.netcom.com>
>To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
>Subject: peppers
>Date: Sat, Jan 29, 2000, 12:21 PM
>

>
> Ah a pepper expert!  I love to grow peppers I think they are a beautiful
> plant.  Last year I tried to grow a yellow and an orange bell pepper, never
> turned.  I suspect they just ran out of time ie I didn't get them in ground
> early enough, but I actually don't remember.  I also bought a six pack of
> chocolate peppers they never changed either.  Last year was dry.  Any
> suggestions?  Thanks Beth
>
>> We grow peppers - picked more than 40,000 last year; aiming for 150,000
>> this year - and make and sell hot sauce as The Chile Man
>> (www.chileman.com coming soon!).
>>
>> I've been on this list two days - and already have amassed some great
>> info!  An excellent group -
>>
>> Robert.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: guldann@ix.netcom.com
>> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
>>
>
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: whistle@halcyon.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
> 

From bg006@scn.org Sat Jan 29 13:14:08 2000
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From: bg006@scn.org (Douglas Hendrickson)
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Fedco (was Re: Seeds not so cheap)
Reply-To: bg006@scn.org



Here is a quote from the Fedco 2000 catalog,  "Only a few of our seed crops 
are organically grown, and these are clearly noted in the catalog."





>
>Fedco does not have a website to speak of.  It justs says they exist, but
>the site is not interactive, and they don't even have an e-mail address!
>
>FEDCO's number is 207-873-7333.
>
>One of the reasons they do so little in the way of advertising is it keeps
>their costs down.  Their catalog, while very thick, has no colored pictures,
>although the descriptions are full and very interesting.
>
>They don't have banks of people manning phones; they charge YOU if you order
>by fax; they don't have a great website.  But what they do have is CHEAP
>PRICES.
>
>Their quality is very high.  Oh, and another intersting thing about Fedco is
>that they code every seed to let you know whether the company or farm - be
>it a small farm or a huge one - is involved in genetic manipulation.
>However, none of their seed is GM'd.  The information is just about those
>particular companies.
>
>Most of the seed is organically grown.  They give generous discounts if the
>orders get in by a certain time.  But even without the discounts, you can't
>beat the prices!
>
>Rose
>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: bg006@scn.org
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')
>
>
>

From fullcircle@jps.net Sat Jan 29 13:24:12 2000
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Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 10:23:39 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: starting farmers' markets


Hi Betsy,

Thanks for participating in the market farming list.  Could you please use
snips to repeat back only those portions of a previous post you're
responding to?  The posts can get awfully long otherwise.

Thanks,

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Sat Jan 29 13:36:30 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Fedco (was Re: Seeds not so cheap)
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:36:15 -0800
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Sorry to have misled anyone.  I assumed most of their seed was organic.
Turns out they're not.  "Only a few..."

Thanks for the correction.

Rose


From fullcircle@jps.net Sat Jan 29 13:51:26 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: farmers' markets


Holly,

Thanks for participating in the market farming list.  Please use snips
instead of quoting back the entire previous post, it takes less space that
way.  If you're replying to a current thread, it may not be neccesary to
quote at all.

Thanks for your consideration,

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From cgrowers@guppy.pond.net Sat Jan 29 13:56:39 2000
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Subject: Re: Help with irrigation and mulch
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 00 11:07:17 -0800
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We raise 5 acres of mixed produce, herbs, cut flowers & edible flowers - 
all on drip. Located in Western Oregon, we receive scant precipitation 
during the growing season, and must irrigate for all crops.

The mechanics of drip tape systems are very easy. There are several 
options of tape, based on flow rates and emitter spacing (8", 12", 16", 
etc.). The key to designing a system is to properly match the flow rate 
of your well, the spacing of your crops, and the overall layout of the 
field. Pressure is rarely an issue, as typically pressure regulators are 
placed in line (our system runs at 12psi I believe). Duration of 
irrigating will depend on the flow rate of the system, 
evapo-transporation (e/t) rates of your soil & climate, and the crop 
you're growing. Hi-flow systems will deliver more water per hour than 
lo-flow, requiring a lower total running time to deliver the desired 
level of water.  All systems require filters, available in the standard 
array of price & quality, and should have an anti-siphon fixture on the 
line (cheap). Dripworks is a good source of information, although for 
purchasing the system on the East Coast, Rain-flow may be a good choice 
due to locality and reduced shipping.

Be aware that not all crops are equally suited to drip systems. Shallow 
rooted greens, e.g. lettuce, often require constant available moisture 
for optimal growth (or non-bittering). This can be tough if your area has 
high e/t rates. Transplanting is also a tricky operation - aliums don't 
do well transplanted in hot soil with drip tape, as their root area is 
very small. We minimize transplant shock in the height of summer by 
transplanting in the evening, giving plants 12-14 hours of cooler temps 
to acclimate, running the irrigation overnight. Another drawback is that 
unless you purchase and apply new tape each year, system setup and 
breakdown requires significant time. Additionally, the lines must be 
checked each irrigation to ensure they are tight and close to the plants, 
even if staked with staples (another issue entirely). The exception to 
this are in buried lines (potatoes), mature brassicas, and lines under 
plastic mulch - the last two requiring a gentle tug at the end of the 
line to straighten the whole bed out.

One of the main benefits of drip systems is the reduced weed pressure, at 
least in areas that receive little or now rainfall. Our aisles require 
only a couple cultivations through the season to keep them clean, and the 
population of weeds that can thrive in the dry aisles is very limited. 
For a variety of reasons, mainly soil temperatures, we choose to 
cultivate in row rather than use mulch. Another benefit is the ability to 
apply soluble fertilizers or compost teas, as well as parasitic 
nematodes. I would suggest testing out the weed differences between 
mulched and unmulched rows.

Aaron

Creative Growers
Aaron Silverman
88741 Torrence Rd.
Noti, Or. 97461
cgrowers@pond.net
Quality Produce & Pastured Poultry


From glenn@smallfarms.com Sat Jan 29 14:06:20 2000
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Hi there.  Nice to see so many familar faces on this new list!

Elizabeth asked:

> Are any of you connected with private farmer's markets, and is there su=
ch a thing?

There are.  The ones I've seen vary in quality - real farmers' foods -
greatly.  Most of the markets also have a mix of products and crafts
which the vendors make themselves, are imported, or are flea market type
cast offs. =20

The farmers there seem happy with the opportunity to sell at these
locations.  However, my reservation is that consumers don't know what
they were buying, e.g., real, prudently grown small farm food or seconds
from a wholesaler.  The farmers didn't have any signage or information
cards that told buyers that their products were from their farms...  =20

More from Elizabeth:

> From a=A0consumer's viewpoint (mom with kids), a new location, where I'=
d like to put one, would entice
> me to shop at a fm.=A0 Convenience is the name of the game these days &=
 I feel we farmers at this particular
> fm are missing out on alot of sales/potential customers.

I'd like to see a farmers' market try an information booth with a real
farmer there to answer questions and be a guide.  The booth could
feature the Farmer of the Week, old farm tools, or animals, AND be used
to cross promote farm activities in the area.  I'm thinking of
information on pick your own and roadside stands, even a small farm
labyrinth! (Our latest smallfarms.com farmer has one.)  Anyway, I like
cross promotions and co promotions.  They work!

glenn
Buy from the Farmer
http://www.smallfarms.com

From fullcircle@jps.net Sat Jan 29 14:31:47 2000
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Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:31:18 -0800
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Apology


To anyone I addressed individually in this forum,

I am mortified and sorry.  My Eudora program is still not working properly,
and, although I cut and pasted individuals into the reply space, it didn't
take and the request was sent to the list.  Please know it is not my policy
to publically ask for individual changes.  I will be reloading Eudora
tonight so this won't happen again.

In the meantime,  here's a global request.

Please use snips to cut posts to which you are replying.  If you are
replying to a current thread, it may not be necessary to quote anything at
all.  Please don't repost the three previous posts by simply hitting the
reply button.

Thanks ,

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From SCook21809@aol.com Sat Jan 29 14:44:54 2000
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Holly made an important distinction here,
<< All I was saying was that trying to make the existing setup in your 
downtown area work for you when it obviously is such a flawed model would be 
a huge drain of your energy and resources that could better be spent 
implementing your plan of finding an alternative setting that WILL work for 
you.>>

    The "Market Square" I spoke of earlier is the culmination of four years 
of work and compromises the Farmer's Market Assoc. made when we got evicted 
mid season from a green in front of a strip mall.  It wasn't working for 
anyone.  We learned from our mistakes and pushed ahead.  But moving forward 
was a four year process.  Its a good thing that farmers are eternal optimists 
and never quit.
    Good luck Liz.  I think it is very important for you to organize other 
growers so you can push ahead with a consolidated effort.  Politicians will 
try to divide and conquer you.

Art Biggert
Ocean Sky Farm
Bainbridge Island, WA
 

From doodles@netins.net Sat Jan 29 14:45:07 2000
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Subject: 3 places to get good GE info. for your market customers
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************************************************************************
THE CAMPAIGN TO LABEL:
---------------------
"Are reports of pollen killing
Monarch butterflies, the appearance of superweeds, and the pollution of
organic agriculture not enough to make government regulators think twice
about these risky crops?"

Craig Winters, Executive Director
The Campaign (to Label Genetically Engineered Foods)
PO Box 55699
Seattle, WA 98155
Tel: 425-771-4049
Fax: 603-825-5841
E-mail: mailto:label@thecampaign.org
Web Site: http://www.thecampaign.org

Mission Statement: "To create a national grassroots consumer campaign for
the purpose of lobbying Congress and the President to pass legislation that
will require the labeling of genetically engineered foods in the United
States."
***************************************************************************

BAN-GENETICALLY ENGINEERED FOOD LIST:
------------------------------------
For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the Ban-GEF list,
send email to Ban-GEF@lists.txinfinet.com with HELP in the SUBJECT line.
***************************************************************************

ORGANIC CONSUMERS ASSOCIATION:
-----------------------------
Ronnie Cummins, Director
BioDemocracy Campaign/Organic Consumers Association
6114 Hwy 61
Little Marais, Minnesota 55614
Telephone: 218-226-4164   Fax: 218-226-4157
email: alliance@mr.net        URL: http://www.purefood.org

Affiliated with the
Organic Consumers Association
http://www.organicconsumers.org

To Subscribe to the free electronic newsletter, BioDemocracy News (formerly
called Campaign for Food Safety News) send an email to:
majordomo@mr.net
with the simple message in the body of the text:
subscribe pure-food-action

To subscribe to the free electronic newsletter, Organic View,
send an email to:
organicview@organicconsumers.org
with the simple message in the body of the text: subscribe



From growing4market@earthlink.net Sat Jan 29 14:48:07 2000
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Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:45:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Cut Flower Subscriptions
From: "Lynn Byczynski" <growing4market@earthlink.net>
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We started a cut flower subscription pick-your-own last summer.  $100 got
you a small french flower bucket and the right to fill it 10 times over the
course of the summer.  It worked very well.  We left a check-in sheet on a
table with a tupper ware container of floralife and a basket full of
clippers.  

We sell most of our flowers to florists and we were concerned that the pick
your own customers would take too many, but we could hardly tell that they
had been through.  Also, they often took flowers that we could not have sold
to florists (too big, strangely shaped, etc.)  We will probably expand the
pyo to 50 subscribers this summer.

WE have some friends who also sell at farmers market.  They sell punch cards
at Christmas, redeemable for a bouquet at farmers market or a bouquet at
their pyo.  That works very well also.

Finally, our customers often used the service to bring friends and family
out for a trip to the country, and they sometimes took 2 or 3 of bucket
fulls home, but they always counted them and left a note so we new where
they stood.  Pick-Your-Own flower customers are generally very nice people.

We have on farm liability insurance that covers this.  This is the first pyo
we ever did, though we have market gardened for 12 years.  The additional
rider to cover this was not that much.

---
Lynn Byczynski or Dan Nagengast <growing4market@earthlink.net>
Growing for Market 
Kansas Rural Center 785/748-0959

 
>

From blevy@rsocsun.tamu.edu Sat Jan 29 15:53:05 2000
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Marcie Rosenzweig wrote:

> Thanks for participating in the market farming list.  Could you please use
> snips to repeat back only those portions of a previous post you're
> responding to?

> Yes, I can, and no offense taken. By the way, I'm so glad for this list, and following
> this thread has been very informative for me. I'm a rural sociology graduate student
> and my area of interest is farm market consumers. With the consent and patient
> cooperation of a local market farming couple, I got a survey off the ground recently
> that I'm planning to expand. The results suggest two groups of consumers (none of this
> is going to amaze you folks, but it interested me). The large majority of the people
> who made their way to the farm stand on the couple's land appeared to be motivated less
> by self-interest and more by looking for meaningful social connections. To a head, none
> of them chose as their reasons for shopping at the stand, "recreation" or "atmosphere."
> On the other hand, the handful who DID choose "recreation" were dramatically less
> concerned with other people's welfare. The division was so dramatic that I went over
> the surveys again to make sure I'd coded them correctly.

I'm going to ask my farming friends to let me hand out more surveys at another venue they
sell at, in front of an upscale grocery store, and see if the majority of shoppers there
fall into the recreation category. The point, if I have one, is perhaps that if you care
about customers, they will care about you - at least, the caring kind will make that
extra effort to seek you out, because they want to know YOU. The ones who don't care -
well, you can always market to them by going for the huge mark-ups that gourmet
vegetables and atmosphere entitle you to - hell, if I ever get to try market gardening, I
wouldn't hesitate! It seems possible to attract both groups by recognizing their
tendencies.


From grandad@grandadsfarm.com Sat Jan 29 17:38:27 2000
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> Please don't repost the three previous posts by simply hitting the
> reply button.

	Thank you for being such a good list moderator.  I am so happy
that I am not alone in abhorring all the extraneous previous
messages making it difficult to find what the replier even said.
-- 
From mailto:grandad@grandadsfarm.com and 
the Home of Grandad's Farm Magazine 
in the beautiful suburbs of Columbia, Missouri
http://www.grandadsfarm.com/

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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Marketing concerns
References: <LYR98963-34327-2000.01.29-09.53.16--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99039-34348-2000.01.29-11.07.09--gutierrez-lagatta#home.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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> This is the exact problem I'm having with our farmer's market.  The
> marketing just isn't there.  Not necessarily traditional marketing like ads
> and such, but marketing the "farm" part.
I had some interesting conversations with Dr. Carol Miles of the
Washington State Extension Service.  The service staffs each farmer's
market with a coordinator.  They coordinate things like a "Taste of
Washington" booth which showcases local produce and organize monthly
chef events where local chefs do demos using produce provided by local
vendors.  It sounds like a very effective program.

Adriana Gutierrez
Green Cuisine
Sarasota, Florida

From llami@teleport.com Sat Jan 29 18:11:25 2000
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Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 15:07:31 -0800
Subject: Re: starting farmers' markets
From: Lee Lawton <llami@teleport.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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 However, my reservation is that consumers don't know what
> they were buying, e.g., real, prudently grown small farm food or seconds
> from a wholesaler.  The farmers didn't have any signage or information
> cards that told buyers that their products were from their farms...

I'm proposing a rule change to our market board so that each vendor will
have a laminated sign hanging in front of their stall which would show their
name, location, whether or not oganic, and where else they sell, if
anywhere. We've had some vendors who were employees of pretty big farm
stores, who brought in veggie starts from California, which were so cheap,
it was hard to compete. Also, most customers seem to assume that every
vendor grows organically, and that just isn't so. Customers should be able
to get this kind of info easily, and I think a laminated sign, which vendors
could fill out with grease pencil or permanent marker might help.

Does anyone have experience with anything like this?

Lee Lawton
Over the Rainbow Farm
Junction City, OR


From creech5@mail.tds.net Sat Jan 29 18:42:41 2000
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: A Singing Pig:
References: <LYR98963-34360-2000.01.29-12.04.53--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99053-34367-2000.01.29-12.31.51--creech5#mail.tds.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99136-34374-2000.01.29-13.04.29--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99053-34375-2000.01.29-13.10.06--creech5#mail.tds.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Holly,

    You're right! I should have worded my input differently. Liz does
need to examine which avenue will give her the best return for her time
and energy. I was just trying to encourage Liz. :) BTW, have you never
watched Charlotte's Web?? Wilbur can sing quite well ;) 

Penny
Sojourner wrote:
> 
>
> Pigs can't sing, but there's no reason you can't go off and find
> yourself a bluebird.  All I was saying was that trying to make the
> existing setup in your downtown area work for you when it obviously is
> such a flawed model would be a huge drain of your energy and resources
> that could better be spent implementing your plan of finding an
> alternative setting that WILL work for you.
> 
> Just my opinion.
> 
> --
> Holly ;-D
> Contrary Peasant
> sojournr@missouri.org
> 
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: creech5@mail.tds.net
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')

From mayorsson1@hotmail.com Sat Jan 29 18:45:51 2000
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From: "Edward Marshall" <mayorsson1@hotmail.com>
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: starting farmers' markets
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:46:09 EST
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Hello Folks, We began an Evening Farmers'Market in our nearby locale, with 
the idea to attract a new customer base that we did not see at the early 
morning market.  We began with three vendors and ended with close to thirty. 
  I am enthusiastic about promoting the market as an authentic farmers' 
market, and have pushed for the idea of having every vendor "certified".  We 
can all certify one another, in that we do have farms, do produce our own 
produce, bake our own baked goods, etc.  And we can take pictures of each 
other doing what we love to do!  An information booth is a great idea, and 
the certification can be displayed there.  This certification I hope to use 
as "branding", essentially proving to all potential customers that we are 
legitimate.  We also had name tags with the vendor's name and location on 
them, as well as the market logo.  We printed up business cards with the 
same logo and a MAP to the market on the back.  This was all the advertising 
we could afford, and it was effective.  Maybe this year, our second, we 
could put a calender  on the back with highlighted dates of the market or 
our side attractions, such as taste contests or live music.  Plenty of ideas 
out there to promote your markets.  Good luck!  Edward.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 09:41:44 CST
From: Kay and Annette Fernholz <erfarm@hotmail.com>
To: community supported agriculture <csa@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Greenhouse spring plantings

We are new in the greenhouse operation having just completed the 
construction of our own greenhouse.  We farm 2.5 acres of garden soil for a 
CSA operation.  This will be our first year of planting the seeds in a 
greenhouse and then transplanting them into the garden soil.  We are not 
sure about a schedule as to when to plant the various seeds.  We live in 
west central Minnesota with cold winters and our ordinary time for planting 
seeds in garden plots is late Qpril.  Could you help us schedule our 
seedling planting?  What kind of soil mixture, temps, daylight amount of 
time and any other helpful hints.  We would really appreciate it much.  Kay 
and Annette Fernholz at Earth Rise Farm

<>


From fullcircle@jps.net Sat Jan 29 20:01:44 2000
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Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 17:01:10 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: starting farmers' markets (long)


Hi all,

I've belonged to three different farmers' market associations, and helped
start one that now runs 6 markets.  I can tell you each association is
unique as is each market in each town. Somethings that happen here are:

Certified Farmers' Markets -
California is the land of regulation.  If our legislature can write a law
getting into your wallet they will.  (I'll step off my soapbox, now ;-)
Certified Farmers Markets in California allow the farmer to sell directly
to the consumer without following the standard packaging and sizing rules
for agricultural products (and there are many)  the trade-off for this is
that a farmer or their employee can sell only the produce grown on their
farm as certified by the county ag commissioner.  Before you can get a
certificate, you must submit a list of what you are growing, each variety
listed separately; how many acres, or linear feet, or square feet of that
crop you're growing; what months you anticipate the harvest to cover; and
your estimated production in lbs of that crop. Then, the Ag Commissioner
comes out to your farm to verify you are growing what you say you are.
Trust me if you do a biointensive cultural system with two to three crops
off each bed in any given season, you can really drive the system batty.
Your certificate, once recieved must be displayed prominently in your booth
when you sell.

Each market must apply to be a certified market and only farmers with
certificates may sell there.  If the certified marrket is only one part of
a larger market, that includes prepared foods and crafts for instance,
there must be a clear demarcation between the certified market and the rest
of the vendors.

Whew!

The advantage of this system is the consumer knows they are buying directly
from the farmer and not a wholesale jobber.  It helps level the playing
field by assuring  someone isn't buying produce wholesale and reselling.
Some asssociations help farmers purchase signs with the Certified Farm
logo, the farm name and city on it.

For those of you in a less anal retentive climate, the take-away message
here might be to try creating a row or corner of your marketplace with
local farmer-type banners or other things that clearly let folks know
you're different from the rest.

Old City Markets -

I've participated in three of these with three different experiences.

One was an urban market.  It was basically sponsored by a downtown
merchants association who asked the farmers' market association to set up a
market there.  LOTS of traffic but fewer buyers than smaller markets I
attended.  This was a summer evening market on a Thursday night in a
downtown dominated by offices.  Local restaurants had food booths, there
was music, merchant some merchants had booths outside ther stores but most
did not.  Great ambiance, mediocre sales.  Folks got off work, grabbed a
bite at a food booth, listened to some music, bought a peach for dessert
and left.

Both others were rural/suburban markets in centers of small towns.

One Saturday morning market got moved three times because the merchants saw
all these people at the farmers' market but none in their stores.  Never
mind they didn't open until the last half hour of the market.  We were
thought to be robbing them of traffic because we had the parking spaces on
the street for two blocks.  The merchants here never participated.  We're
out of there and now they blaming the high school kids for loitering and
looking weird.

The final market is a success.  You might call it a private market as it's
run by one person without a board and limited funding from the city - they
pay part of the publicity budget and some of his salary.  It's a Friday
night market in the historic part of a Gold Rush town.  Small eateries and
gift sores are the rule.  Here's what's different.

The manager goes to each merchant personally inviting and encouraging them
to participate.  The main street is blocked of and no parking is allowed
starting at 4:30pm.
The farmers market is in the center of the two blocks on both sides of the
street.  Virtually all the eateries set up a "sidewalk cafe" presense.
Several merchants bring a table of gift items out and set up.  A stage with
varied local bands (Celtic, jazz, salsa, rock, folk) is set up at one end
of the street and the band schedule is published in the local paper before
the season begins and weekly after that.  Sometimes a second "stage area"
at the other end of the market allows for the local theater company or
poetry readings or local kids dance troupe to perform.   He's gotten the
community to have ownership of a piece of this market everywhere you turn.
This market is in the smallest population draw of any of the three adn it's
in an historic distric tht is dominated by tourist trade inthe sunmmer,
but we always sell more here than at any other market.

I'll shut up now,

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From pike@always-online.com Sat Jan 29 20:19:52 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-34343-2000.01.29-10.47.01--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Green manures in the growing season
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:21:22 -0500
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>From Lee:  >(I'm in Zone 8), but I don't know much about using them during
the growing season.<

Hi Lee!  I'm in zone 8, too, though at the moment it feels more like
3-getting snow, sleet & ice!  I love winter-first real one we've had in 3-4
years!  (Fewer fire ants & mosquitoes this summer!)

I do no-till, too, on certain beds, though this year I've turned everything.
I'm redesigning/reorienting the garden, which I do every 3-4 years.  It's
been 5 years since the last time.  Generally, green manures are undersown
4-5 weeks after main crop is sown. Here's my calendar for green manures &
crops during the growing season:

Corn, undersown with soybeans & hairy vetch (I do not till this under, just
mow it down in the late fall.)

Brassicas-undersown with white dutch clover (do not till, or mow)

Peas-undersown with clovers as above

Tomatos, peppers-undersown with clover, use cardboard in July, August

Squash & cucumbers (grown on trellis)-undersown with hairy vetch

Beans, cabbages, collards, chard-undersown with whatever I have left!

Salad greens-straw mulch

Potatos-straw (& one experimental patch of sweet alyssum)

Root crops-undersown with clover, not too close to plant

The green manures are selected to help that crop, and the one following
later in the season, or next year.  When I allow rest for a bed, it is
started by a season long growth of annual alfalfa, then 6 months of chickens
or rabbits, who turn the green manure & refertilize it, then I let it rest
another 6 months before use.

Hope this helps!

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina













From pike@always-online.com Sat Jan 29 20:38:20 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
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References: <LYR98963-34355-2000.01.29-11.40.26--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Marketing concerns
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:39:50 -0500
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From: Shelley Pasco >and the local government has been made aware that there
is a need, a desire, and a reason to keep local farming alive.<

I can't fault the politicians-until they learn better, & I feel my mission
over the next few years will be to teach them.  I'm considering cutting back
on my farming this year, & taking a more active roll in the market
management (though I refuse to be market manager), & to build a market that
I can enter that's worthy of my produce.   The facility is there, nice
location, just needs reinvigorating.  All the traditional marketing ploys
are done-sandwich signs (too small), banners over main streets around
town-too small to read until you're right up under them (I know-I bumped
into a car in front of me last year craning my neck just trying to see how
close one had to get to read them-no damage, missed market day & had salsa
in my trunk), activities outside of normal operating hours, etc, etc.

So, I may just end up growing sunflowers, buckwheat, and a farmer's market
this year.  Then I'll be ready to kick butt next year!!

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina


From igg@intrepid.net Sat Jan 29 20:52:20 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Allan Balliett <igg@intrepid.net>
Subject: Re: Cut Flower Subscriptions


>We started a cut flower subscription pick-your-own last summer.  $100 got
>you a small french flower bucket and the right to fill it 10 times over the
>course of the summer.  It worked very well.  We left a check-in sheet on a
>table with a tupper ware container of floralife and a basket full of
>clippers.

Lynn - Can you pass on a list of varities that you grew for your
subscription flower garden?

>
>
>We have on farm liability insurance that covers this.  This is the first pyo
>we ever did, though we have market gardened for 12 years.  The additional
>rider to cover this was not that much.
>

Which carrier did you get this through? I've had some real difficulty
finding affordable liability insurance for 'pick your own.'

Thanks for your post!

-Allan Balliett



From marc@aculink.net Sat Jan 29 21:31:27 2000
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Subject: Re: Green manures
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Lee,
Here's the web address for Cedar Meadow Farm.  Steve Groff
has done a lot work with SARE and on his own with green
manures as a living mulch.  Lots of good info. 

http://www.cedarmeadowfarm.com/

Marcy Nameth
SE Colorado 

Lee Lawton wrote:
> 
> I'd like to hear more about using the green manure right along with the
> growing veggies.

From BBGREGSON@cs.com Sat Jan 29 21:51:41 2000
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Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:51:39 EST
Subject: Re: Help with irrigation and mulch
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Reference Rose's questions about straw mulch, and drip irrigation:

We used to use straw extensively here near Seattle, but found it didn't break 
down very fast and thus required removal and composting at the end of the 
season.  Also, took a lot of straw.  Now we're firm believers in using 
nursery ground cloth in any possible way.  It lasts forever, or so it seems, 
and has a lot of advantages when moved around from year to year.
Drip irrigation is terrific.  You can tell from the spec's for each 
particular product how many gallons per hour are needed for a certain amount 
of linear feet, then check that against how many feet you'd run at any one 
time and how often you'd cover each area.  It's just about the best 
investment we've made.  But all of this is dependent on what part of the 
country you're in.....
Bob Gregson, Island Meadow Farm, Vashon, WA

From pike@always-online.com Sat Jan 29 21:59:09 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-34417-2000.01.29-18.45.51--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: starting farmers' markets
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 22:00:43 -0500
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From: Edward Marshall <mayorsson1@hotmail.com>

> We began an Evening Farmers'Market in our nearby locale, with
the idea to attract a new customer base that we did not see at the early
 morning market.<

Thanks for all the ideas everyone.  I'm planning to work with the fm & also
attempt establishing an additional market, at a later time on another day at
a different location for local shoppers.   I will squeak softly & carry a
big stick!

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina


From pike@always-online.com Sat Jan 29 22:10:13 2000
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Subject: Re: Help with irrigation and mulch
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 22:11:46 -0500
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Bob, do you use this nursery ground cloth as mulch under crops?  Do you
plant through it??  How?? (cutting it?? does it ravel?)  sorry, so many
questions!

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina



From bbrocious@hotmail.com Sat Jan 29 22:29:46 2000
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From: "Bob Brocious" <bbrocious@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Help with irrigation and mulch
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 19:30:08 PST
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Bob,
Could you tell me more about the cloth such as brand name, lengths and 
widths, cost, etc.?
Thanx
Bob
Tenacity Farm
Carrollton, KY
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From BBGREGSON@cs.com Sat Jan 29 22:45:17 2000
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Shelley's comments about letting the community know we're here are right on.  
After the WTO inspiration---and it absolutely was for those who attended the 
"alternative" farmer day---a group of us have started to meet on Vashon 
Island to develop a new food system, starting with our community.  So far 
we've a vision and mission statement and are now wondering how best to 
approach the broader community to start the wheels turning.  The crucial 
linkage is consumer to farmer.  Without that connection, all is lost.  With 
it, all is possible.
Bob Gregson, Island Meadow Farm, Vashon, WA

From BBGREGSON@cs.com Sat Jan 29 22:49:58 2000
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Subject: Re: Help with irrigation and mulch
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Liz---re groundcloth as mulch---we butt the cloth up against the row on each 
side, then use lawn clippings to mulch whatever isn't covered (quite a bit in 
rows of broccoli, for example, where it is a staggered double row on 16" 
centers).  Cutting the cloth does cause problems over time.  We even fold 
over the ends so a cut end does not meet the lawnmower in the grass paths.
Bob Gregson

From BBGREGSON@cs.com Sat Jan 29 22:53:56 2000
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Subject: Re: Help with irrigation and mulch
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Bob B.
We get "nursery ground cloth", don't know the brand, from any of several 
wholesalers.  It comes in 3', 6' and 12' widths.  300' of 3' cloth costs just 
under 50$.  So we use 3' in most rows, 6' between rows of summer squash, pole 
beans and tomatoes.  And thus we save water (drip tapes are placed under the 
ground cloth each season) and never cultivate the rows.  Big job getting 
everything set up in the Spring, but no weeding or cultivating during the 
season.  
Bob G.

From flowers@rt66.com Sat Jan 29 23:48:34 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: favorite annuals:ASCFG


you can find the schedual at www.ascfg.org


>In a message dated 1/28/00 10:54:03 AM Central Standard Time, 
>flowers@rt66.com writes:
>
><< ..THIS YEAR AUSTIN TX.. THAT WILL TEACH YOU MORE ABOUT FLOWER GROWING
> IN A FEW DAYS >>
>when???
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow



From london@metalab.unc.edu Sun Jan 30 00:05:38 2000
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@metalab.unc.edu>
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Subject: Re: Cut Flower Subscriptions
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On Sat, 29 Jan 2000, Allan Balliett wrote:

> >We have on farm liability insurance that covers this.  This is the first pyo
> >we ever did, though we have market gardened for 12 years.  The additional
> >rider to cover this was not that much.

> Which carrier did you get this through? I've had some real difficulty
> finding affordable liability insurance for 'pick your own.'

Product Liability Insurance. Many supermarkets require this. Growers
shouldn't be without it and it provides allthe coverage you'll need.
Farm Bureau may be the only company writing it that offers it for a
reasonable price. I am paying about $125 a year for considerable coverage.
The price is based on projected annual gross income from farming.

LL

Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu




From flowers@rt66.com Sun Jan 30 00:31:31 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: Help with irrigation and mulch



>
>My problem is that I don't know how much water a drip irrigation system
>demands and in what times - gal/min.



drip tape runs between .5-1.5  gmp per 100 feet 

we do 3-4 acres flowers/organic veggies with a 5 hp 2 " pump using a 2 inch
supply line (layflat) and drip  we have to divide it into 3-4 sectrons to
water... the pump capacity is ~`1800 gph
martin



see http://www.Irrigation-Mart.com martin 
>
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow



From flowers@rt66.com Sun Jan 30 00:59:34 2000
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To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: 


Liz you asked 

do you use this nursery ground cloth as mulch under crops?  Do you
plant through it??  How?? (cutting it?? does it ravel?)  s


long term weed barriers such as those used for greenhouse flooring or
container plant growing can be planted trough by cutting holes with either
with a pair of scissors or a branding iron or a propane torch ...are great
for  flowers ...with these one person can hand  weed an acre in a day!....if
you cut them into managable pieces say 50 ft   x 12 feet they can be used
for annuals and  you can remove them at year end and resue the following
season especially useful with drip and do not tear when the dogs or cows or
in our case elk, walk through the field :)

 they are about same cost as single season mulch when amortized over the
life of the fabric....but cost ~$3000 per acre where single use mulch costs
~`250 per acre
small pieces cost $50 per 3 x 300 feet 

amrtin



Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow



From london@metalab.unc.edu Sun Jan 30 01:25:01 2000
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Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 01:25:19 -0500 (EST)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@metalab.unc.edu>
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To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Production methods: tillage, beds, rows, etc.
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What tillage methods and equipment do you all use:

tractor
rototiller
mule
hand tools
tractor + hand tools
rototiller + hand tools

How many primarily use hand tools? Raised beds, rows
of varying width? 

I have plowing and cultivating done by a neighbor
but all the rest is done by me with hand tools
to dig and shape raised beds of varying lengths.
Using the edge principle in permaculture would allow
for the building of beds within mandalas. Some 
interesting possibilities there for companion and inter-cropping
and recycling of nutrients between beds. 

LL

Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/documents/gardening-hand-tools.faq
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu



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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@metalab.unc.edu>
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For Elizabeth Pike:

Jeffreys Seed Company 
Goldsboro, North Carolina

Good seeds, very fairly priced, not organic necessarily,
good selection. A fairly big company run by a family for several
generations. They sell primarily to the big produce farms in NC
and Virginia.

Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu



From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Sun Jan 30 06:15:55 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
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Subject: Re: Production methods: tillage, beds, rows, etc.
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 06:15:40 -0800
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Great topic.  Although we're new and our methods will undoubtely evolve,
we're using...

Rototilling - BCS 14hp.  We've used a TroyBilt "horse" for years and we find
the BCS is far superior.

Wheel cultivator - large wheel in the front, various cultivating attachments
for the back.

Earthway seeder which spaces certain things well, but other things badly.

We use rows for certain crops, raised beds for others.  The furrowing
attachment on the BCS forms the raised beds.

Watering will be done by a rainwater collection system, a "walking" water
tank, and by hand.  I'll start a small patch of drip irrigation.

Everything else by hand, by mulch, by cover cropping, by black cloth.


When I grow up, I'd very much like to have a tractor with a rototilling
attachment, and a bed shaper.

Rose


From igg@intrepid.net Sun Jan 30 07:46:42 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Allan Balliett <igg@intrepid.net>
Subject: Re: Help with irrigation and mulch


>We used to use straw extensively here near Seattle, but found it didn't break
>down very fast and thus required removal and composting at the end of the
>season.  Also, took a lot of straw

Hi, Bob!

Was this wheat straw? Rye straw? Oat Straw?

Straw goes for about $1.50 a bale around here, oat or wheat. What are folks
paying for quantities to mulch a large garden with. (I realize that you are
post-straw, I'm hoping someone else will share what they pay for straw! :-)

Thanks

-Allan



From rbfarr@erols.com Sun Jan 30 07:56:36 2000
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Allan:

$2.50/bale here in Purcellville; up to $3.00/bale in Lovettsville.

I realize I overpaid - but didn't realize how much until I saw your
post.

I'm coming to W. Va. to get my next batch!

R.



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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Allan Balliett <igg@intrepid.net>
Subject: Re: Help with irrigation and mulch


>Allan:
>
>$2.50/bale here in Purcellville; up to $3.00/bale in Lovettsville.
>
>I realize I overpaid - but didn't realize how much until I saw your
>post.
>
>I'm coming to W. Va. to get my next batch!
>
>R.
>
>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: igg@igg.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to
>$subst('Email.Unsub')

Robert - I typically pay $1 a bale by the dozen for oat straw. However, if
you look in the paper, you can get it for $3, and I think shiny golden
wheat straw is $4 at the feed store.

What about old hay? Anyone using old hay? Any good strategies for
minimizing the awesome weed seed problems old hay can create??

Thanks

-Allan



From sojournr@missouri.org Sun Jan 30 08:53:02 2000
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Rose & Fred Lieberman wrote:
> 
> Earthway seeder which spaces certain things well, but other things badly.

Which things well, which badly?  I'll be using mine for the first time
this spring.

> We use rows for certain crops, raised beds for others.

Would you mind telling us what you grow in raised beds and why?

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From sojournr@missouri.org Sun Jan 30 08:54:59 2000
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Allan Balliett wrote:
> 
> Straw goes for about $1.50 a bale around here, oat or wheat. What are folks
> paying for quantities to mulch a large garden with. (I realize that you are
> post-straw, I'm hoping someone else will share what they pay for straw! :-)

We can't get local straw, so we have to buy "imports" which run around
$4 a square bale.

Due to the drought, most farmers don't have local hay to sell.  In a
non-drought year hay goes for a couple bucks a bale, but its $4 to $5 a
bale now.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

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http://www.hcs.ohio-state.edu/hcs/EM/rfmarket/rfmarket.html#b

This is a study on farmer's markets and farm stands, very interesting.  Beth


From pike@always-online.com Sun Jan 30 09:37:40 2000
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Bob Gregson: >develop a new food system, starting with our community.  So
far
> we've a vision and mission statement and are now wondering how best to
> approach the broader community to start the wheels turning.  <

Please keep us informed how this goes.  It's so discouraging to live in an
agricultural area, where the people are so far removed from what they're
doing.  (Factory farming versus local, sustainability.)

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina


From pike@always-online.com Sun Jan 30 09:59:04 2000
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> http://www.hcs.ohio-state.edu/hcs/EM/rfmarket/rfmarket.html#b
>
> This is a study on farmer's markets and farm stands, very interesting.
Beth
>

Thanks, Beth.  This is exactly the type of info I need!

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina


PS  Lawrence, do you know if State has done similar research?  I asked local
ag agent & he hasn't gotten back up with me.



From hart1340@fwi.com Sun Jan 30 10:08:47 2000
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I got lucky on my straw this year.  Paid $30 for approximatly 150
bales(some broken) at a farm auction about 8 miles from my place.
Bryan (In.)


From sojournr@missouri.org Sun Jan 30 10:14:47 2000
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Allan Balliett wrote:
> 
> What about old hay? Anyone using old hay? Any good strategies for
> minimizing the awesome weed seed problems old hay can create??

I've used old hay and never had a weed problem of any sort.  Any weeds
that managed to get rooted and sprout are so shallowly rooted (or are
mostly rooted in the hay) you could practically knock them over with a
feather.

The hay was layered quite deeply.  We had a drought that year and I was
hauling water to the site in milk jugs (e.g., nothing got much in the
way of extra water).  Still it was the best garden I ever had.

This was a smallish garden plot, around 50 feet square as I recall. 
Can't say how this would work on larger areas, problem being mostly that
it might be expensive if you have to buy in that much hay.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From hart1340@fwi.com Sun Jan 30 10:17:45 2000
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This is going to be my second year for my truck farm(thats what my dad
always called it) so things may change later.  I have an old Allis
Chalmers WD and various old farm implements for plowing, discing,and
cultivating the sweet corn.  A 8hp Troybilt "horse" handles the smaller
things, and then there is always the good old hand hoe and just plain
hand for whats left. As you can tell I don't have the resources for
newer equipment, plus I get a lot of satisfaction from doing this with
the old and simpler equipment.
Bryan (In.)


From tom_kat_1974@yahoo.com Sun Jan 30 10:19:05 2000
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Hello

How do I post a message I'm looking for information on a garden planter.

So fair I have really gotten lots of good information from just reading the messages on my email,,,lots of them are coming everyday.

Thanks s so much for having your site. I farm about ten acres in Northern Ohio and market at one farmers market and my road side stand.

Happy farming,

Tom


May you find a clear path on your road of life,  hang on and enjoy the ride.

---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
--0-1714636915-949245563=:25551
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<P>Hello</P>
<P>How do I post a message I'm looking for information on a garden planter.</P>
<P>So fair I have really gotten lots of good information from just reading the messages on my email,,,lots of them are coming everyday.</P>
<P>Thanks s so much for having your site. I farm about ten acres in Northern Ohio and market at one farmers market and my road side stand.</P>
<P>Happy farming,</P>
<P>Tom</P><BR><BR>May you find a clear path on your road of life,  hang on and enjoy the ride.
<br><hr size=1><b>Do You Yahoo!?</b><br>
Talk to your friends online with <a href="http://im.yahoo.com/">Yahoo! Messenger</a>.
--0-1714636915-949245563=:25551--

From llami@teleport.com Sun Jan 30 10:21:18 2000
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Subject: Re: Help with irrigation and mulch
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> Straw goes for about $1.50 a bale around here, oat or wheat. What are folks
> paying for quantities to mulch a large garden with. (I realize that you are
> post-straw, I'm hoping someone else will share what they pay for straw! :-)

I paid $1.65/bale for a truck load--about 290 bales of rye straw. I also use
it in the chicken nesting boxes--it is so much softer than wheat straw.

Lee Lawton
Over the Rainbow Farm
Junction City, Oregon


From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Sun Jan 30 10:21:54 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Production methods: tillage, beds, rows, etc.
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:21:35 -0800
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Hi, Holly.  Let me see if I can give your question justice...

Earthway Precision Seeder.  Sunflower seeds were the worst.  Also, there
were some dry bean seeds that didn't space well either, even though there is
a specific disc for them.  I think they were Cannelini and Jacob's Cattle.
Small seeds, like broccoli, were fair to midlin.  Corn was excellent,
though.

So, what I will do in the future is sow the sunflowers by hand - and, of
course, immediately go to the chiropractor!.  All tiny seeds that are
direct-sown will be mixed with sand to distribute them better within the
medium.

Raised Beds.  I'll be using those for bush beans, zinnias, and most of my
not-so-tall flowers.  Really tall flowers I'll plant in a row, probably.
I'll plant things in raised beds that don't suffer from lack of mulch.  If
anything is sensitive to weed pressure, I'll either use black plastic on a
raised bed, or plant them in rows and side-mulch the row.

But, to tell the truth, if I my newly tilled soil had a little more tilth to
it, I'd simply plant everything in rows, except those early plants that
benefit from the warmer soil of a raised bed.

Of course, that's what I do.  If anyone has an easier or more logical
approach, PLEEEEEEZ let me know.

Rose


From pike@always-online.com Sun Jan 30 10:46:22 2000
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To break new areas, we use a tractor.    To do minor cultivation, I have a
Mantis.  To do all else-hand tools.

I'm familiar with the edge principle as touted by Alan Chadwick/Jon Jeavons.
Is this the same in permaculture?  What are "mandalas"?

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina


----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. <london@metalab.unc.edu>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 1:25 AM
Subject: Production methods: tillage, beds, rows, etc.


>
> What tillage methods and equipment do you all use:
>
> tractor
> rototiller
> mule
> hand tools
> tractor + hand tools
> rototiller + hand tools
>
> How many primarily use hand tools? Raised beds, rows
> of varying width?
>
> I have plowing and cultivating done by a neighbor
> but all the rest is done by me with hand tools
> to dig and shape raised beds of varying lengths.
> Using the edge principle in permaculture would allow
> for the building of beds within mandalas. Some
> interesting possibilities there for companion and inter-cropping
> and recycling of nutrients between beds.
>
> LL
>
> Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
> http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/documents/gardening-hand-tools.faq
> metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden
> metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere
> metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
> lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu
>
>
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: pike@always-online.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>
>


From goodows@excite.com Sun Jan 30 11:15:09 2000
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We pay around $1.00 to $1.50 for cert. organic wheat or oat straw. We pay
50=A2 for conventional wheat straw (used for composting and winter insulati=
on
around the house)
> =20


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





_______________________________________________________
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From london@metalab.unc.edu Sun Jan 30 11:47:33 2000
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Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:47:49 -0500 (EST)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@metalab.unc.edu>
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On Sun, 30 Jan 2000, Elizabeth Pike wrote:

> PS  Lawrence, do you know if State has done similar research?  I asked local
> ag agent & he hasn't gotten back up with me.

I have never heard of any. Call the Marketing Division of the NCDA
in Raleigh for additional info.

There was a project called Seeds of Hope in NC which sought to help
farmers markets get established throughout NC. Charlie Thompson
ran it; call ALBC in Pittsboro to see if they have more info on it.



From kampy@netins.net Sun Jan 30 12:31:44 2000
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Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:27:06 -0600
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: Marie Kamphefner <kampy@netins.net>
Subject: Mulch, Tilling and Pepper Spray
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Thanks very much to everyone for all the information, especially to the
ones who have responded to my questions.  I've learned so much in just a
few days.

We bought wheat straw last summer for $1.00 per bale here in north central
Missouri.  We used it to mulch strawberries, for bedding in the chicken
house and the emu sheds.  Some of it will be used for temporary maternity
shelters for the sheep and the rest will be used as mulch for potatoes.
The hens LOVE to scratch through loose straw and eat the seeds.  

We use a tractor for plowing, disking, planting and cultivating the grain
fields.  For the truck garden, we use the tractor for plowing and disking
and then have a couple of aged TroyBilts that we got at auctions.  One of
them is a "horse" and the other is a 4hp Junior.  The horse has a
hiller/furrower attachment that we prepare raised beds with.  We plant
strawberries, sweet potatoes, carrots and most root crops in raised beds.
Go down the row with the furrower, then come back so it throws the dirt up
against the other hill and presto!  raised bed.  We use lawn clippings,
straw, hay and leaves that we collected in town the fall before to mulch
with.  The straw from the chicken and emu shelters, we use as side dress
fertilizer for the corn and tomatoes after it spends time in the compost pile.

I use the 4 horse TroyBilt to weed with sometimes if things get ahead of
me.  It starts easily and I can manage it with no trouble.  The horse is a
handful for me, but my husband likes it best.  My favorite thing is hoeing.
 I know, I know, I'm crazy, but I love to get out in the garden early and
hoe around the plants.  I could do it for hours.  It seems like I draw
energy from being in the dirt and with the plants.  I have a new high tech
hoe from Wal Mart.  It has a fiberglass handle, it's lightweight and I get
fewer blisters.  I see that Johnny's has a little pocket hoe sharpener and
I'm going to order that!  Cut down on trips to the garage and the grinder.
Anyway, if I can keep the weeds at bay early in the season when they're
small, get the mulch on after the soil warms up, then it seems like it's
easier to keep up the rest of the year.  If I can enjoy myself in the
process, so much to the good.

We grew habanero peppers year before last and had tons left over.  I dried
them and last summer cooked a handful of the dried peppers in a large pot
of water.  I used the resulting "soup" to spray the green beans and it
killed the little white bugs.  Then, later, I noticed rabbits coming to
feast on the tender leaves would take one bite then do flip flops and never
come back (it didn't kill them).  On our organic certification application
I have put "rifle" in answer to the question about what we use to control
pests, but don't think I'll need the rifle any more.  I'd just as soon not
kill the rabbits anyway.  I plan to expand the use of the home made pepper
spray this year.  My sister read in an article somewhere that habanero
pepper juice would kill termites.

Marie Kamphefner
Strawberry Lane Farm


From kampy@netins.net Sun Jan 30 12:37:47 2000
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Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:33:12 -0600
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: Marie Kamphefner <kampy@netins.net>
Subject: Used Transplanter
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Hello,

Do any of you (especially tobacco country people) know of any place we
could find a used transplanter reasonably priced (cheap).  ;-)

thank you

Marie Kamphefner
Strawberry Lane Farm


From igg@intrepid.net Sun Jan 30 12:45:09 2000
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Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:46:46 -0500
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Allan Balliett <igg@intrepid.net>
Subject: Re: Mulch prices(was irrigation and mulch)


>
>We pay around $1.00 to $1.50 for cert. organic wheat or oat straw. We pay
>50=A2 for conventional wheat straw (used for composting and winter insulati=
on
>around the house)
>>

Jeez, what quantity do you have to buy to get those prices?  How early do
you have to order?

Very curious!!

-Allan



From lh@pressroom.com Sun Jan 30 12:55:33 2000
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 >
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:55:44 -0500
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Leigh Hauter <lh@pressroom.com>
Subject: Pepper Spray and deer deterrence


 > I plan to expand the use of the home made pepper spray this year.

I have a chicken-eating dog and one time, fresh after the kill, I took the
chicken carcass and put it in a bucket with a soup of water and 30 plus
habaneros (the fumes over the bucket almost knocked me over).  I figured
the dog would take one taste of the pepper/chicken and lose it's taste for
poultry.

I left the bucket out over night.

The next morning, not only was the chicken gone, but the dog had lapped up
much of the pepper juice.


We have a major deer problem  (we're located in the middle of about 10,000
acres of unhunted private/state forest).  We have tried about everything.
Last year we had some success with peanut butter electric fence.  Some of
the books call it the Wisconsin deer fence.  We run a strand of electric
fence on top of our woven wire and then fold a piece of foil with a healthy
gob of peanut butter over the top.  A shock to the tongue seems to have a
deterrence factor.

This worked great all summer but in the fall when the forest started
turning brown and our fall irrigated greens looked so, so green, there was
no keeping them out.

Does anyone have a fool proof solution.

From goodows@excite.com Sun Jan 30 13:01:35 2000
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On Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:46:46 -0500, market farming wrote:

>  >
>  >We pay around $1.00 to $1.50 for cert. organic wheat or oat straw. We
pay
>  >50=A2 for conventional wheat straw (used for composting and winter
insulation
>  >around the house)
>  >>
> =20
>  Jeez, what quantity do you have to buy to get those prices?  How early d=
o
>  you have to order?
> =20
>  Very curious!!
> =20
>  -Allan

>  The convetional stuff is from a farmer down the road who rents the field
adjacent to our market garden and he doesn't run cattle anymore so he is
slowly selling it to us, no minimum. The organic straw we get from our
chicken feed supplier. We have to get a minimum of 10 bales at a time and n=
o
advanced notice.  I have told this guy he could get $4 to $5 around here fo=
r
certified straw if took the stuff into the city and sold it to an upscale
garden center. So perhaps this is what he is doing and is giving us a break
on price. His price on chicken feed makes up for cheap straw, 20=A2lb if we
get a min of 1000lbs but that is another topic.


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





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From creech5@mail.tds.net Sun Jan 30 13:04:12 2000
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Hi all,

    I'm new to this market gardening thing and have really learned alot
already from this forum. I just opened Park's newest catalog and they
have a new sugar pea called Pea Sugar Lace. THis is what Park's says
"No stakes, no strings, almost no leaves-just peas! Masses of stingless,
tender 3 1/2" pods are perfect to eat straight from the garden." 
Penny in SC

From berryman70@yahoo.com Sun Jan 30 13:08:26 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:8:20
Subject: Re: marketing study
To: market-farming
From: "Don Palmer" <berryman70@yahoo.com>


Thankyou for the link, We own a roadside stand in western NY and I found 
this information very interesting. Here's another link along the same 
lines: http://aesop.rutgers.edu/htbin/frumkt.com
Don Palmer
Palmer's Fruits & Vegetables

From kampy@netins.net Sun Jan 30 13:15:58 2000
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Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:11:22 -0600
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: Marie Kamphefner <kampy@netins.net>
Subject: deer deterrence
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I've heard of hanging bars of Irish Spring soap and dryer sheets on the
fence.  Going to the nearest zoo and getting lion manure to spread around
the perimeter of the garden.  Shooting off cannons.  Leaving a radio
playing in the garden.  Where's that chicken-eating dog?  We had one of
those once and he kept the deer away - also raccoons and opossums.  Here in
Missouri, if you're having a problem with deer, if you whine and complain
and make a lot of noise, the conservation dept. will have a hunt to get rid
of the offending herd, so I've been told.. 


From creech5@mail.tds.net Sun Jan 30 13:18:54 2000
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HI,

    That is one tough dog!!!But he must not have a guarding instinct if
he eats the farm animals.
> 
> gone, but the dog had lapped up
> much of the pepper juice.

 Does anyone have a fool proof solution.

Your chicken eating dog doesn't scare away the deer?? Then you need
another dog, one with guarding instincts, such as a Great Pyrenees. They
are used in many places to keep the wolves, bear, and coyotes from
eating livestock. If they can do that they can surely protect plants
from deer. Great PYrenees like to do  perimeter guarding. I bought my
puppy from a guy that has 7 in with his goats. As soon as he moves the
goats to a new pasture the GP immediately patrol the perimeter, marking
it. Now of course you don't want a 125lb. dog in with your produce but 
if they consider your whole farm their territory then they will protect
it all IMHO. To encourage them to perimeter patrol feed them at various
spots along the outside of the fence. PUt their doghouse out there.
These are very smart dogs!! Ours is 4 months old and is already starting
to defend our property from strangers. He is gentle and loving with us
and especially our kids. The only draw back is that he eats alot but
that's o.k. with me. I want a BIG dog to protect us and our farm.   

Just my .02
Penny 
Nathan Farms in SC 

>

From soberle@bwn.net Sun Jan 30 13:24:45 2000
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 >PS  Lawrence, do you know if State has done similar research?  I asked local
 ag agent & he hasn't gotten back up with me.<

>
> I have a few of these type studies from other states, NJ, NY &CA...the final
> conclusions are very similar in terms of demographics, etc. I'm comfortable w/
> extrapolating from them for our market in Colorado until we can get our own data. I'm
> using it in conjunction w/ local data from our chamber of commerce.

***********************
Sue Oberle
Oberle Botanical
Fort Collins, Colorado
email: soberle@bwn.net
voice: (970)493-5672
fax:   (970)493-3358
***********************



From berryman70@yahoo.com Sun Jan 30 13:30:26 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:30:23
Subject: Re: Used Transplanter
To: market-farming
From: "Don Palmer" <berryman70@yahoo.com>


On 01/30/00, "Marie Kamphefner <kampy@netins.net>" wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Do any of you (especially tobacco country people) know of any place we
> could find a used transplanter reasonably priced (cheap).  ;-)
> 
> thank you
> 
> Marie Kamphefner
> Strawberry Lane Farm
Just to comment, I bought a used single row M/T transplanter that 
originally was used for tobacco, paid $175 for it, cleaned it up & painted, 
and replaced the rubber fingers and it works perfect, we plant over 8000 
strawberry plants a year with it. They're out there, watch the swapsheets 
and auctions.
Don Palmer
Palmer's Fruits & Vegetables

From guldann@ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 30 14:28:58 2000
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Don, Thank you for that link as well, I just read it.   Reoccurring themes
keeps running through some of these studies, female, educated, comfortable
financially, and does not want to be too inconvenienced.  That of course it
the "major" customer, everyother person in the country is also a customer
and as one study I read said don't ignore your other customers just be aware
who is the majority.
I am sometimes on the fence as to seasonality.  Mostly I like it, I like the
winter off for physically and emotional recharging and for study (reading
and e-mailing :) ).  But with winter we will never be able to supply our CSA
or farm stand year round with only products from our garden (disregarding
any fabulous season extenders).  So our customers/members go back to the
grocery store.  But as I said to hubby maybe this isn't a bad thing maybe
part of the appeal of CSA and farmers markets, farm stands is that they are
a summer treat.  Beth

> Thankyou for the link, We own a roadside stand in western NY and I found
> this information very interesting. Here's another link along the same
> lines: http://aesop.rutgers.edu/htbin/frumkt.com



From london@metalab.unc.edu Sun Jan 30 14:38:03 2000
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Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 14:38:16 -0500 (EST)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@metalab.unc.edu>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Production methods: tillage, beds, rows, etc.
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On Sun, 30 Jan 2000, Elizabeth Pike wrote:

> To break new areas, we use a tractor.    To do minor cultivation, I have a
> Mantis.  To do all else-hand tools.
> 
> I'm familiar with the edge principle as touted by Alan Chadwick/Jon Jeavons.
> Is this the same in permaculture?  What are "mandalas"?

Read the primary exponents of Permaculture, especially
Bill Mollison "Permaculture: A Design Manual".

I'd be interested in knowing what AC and JJ mean by "edges".

Edges or edge zones in permaculture exist between cultivated,
fallow, wooded, naturalized areas within terrain. Often this
is an especially fertile and productive area where lifeforms
that have migrated into these zones flourish. It is a kind
of "no man's land" where ecosystems can regenerate or bounce back
from inhospitable conditions that may have existed previously
in that area or nearby.

Edge zones in gardening can exist as crenelated edges to garden beds
that are usually shaped into mandalas. The edges of mandalas can be 
"ecologically linked" using fractal patterns (my notion), i.e.
analagous to Mandelbrot images. A mandala looks a bit like what you see in
a round kaliedoscope. A roundish outwardly expanding geometric pattern.
Religious mandalas are popular and created for many of the World's
religions by sacred artists. See also Sacred Geometry for implications
for Permaculture and narural gardening/farming/farmscaping.
For more resources on SG see:
http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture/documents/sacred-geometry
Edge zone creation within gardening and permaculture systems
would necessarily comply with the features and lay of the land,
contours, drainage, proximity to existing plantings, natural areas
and woodland.

Its a pretty interesting topic and I think may offer major benefits
for market farming. Raised beds in the shape of mandalas with crenelated
edges, merging at the edges with other mandalas (or fractal designs of
groups of mandalas), created with the intent of being permanent beds,
never to be ploughed up, reshaped or moved, offer great potential
for plant production. Nutrient conservation and recycling, exchange
of nutrients between beds through leaching, erosion control, enhanced
habitat for microorganisms and beneficial insects are a few of the
benefits to be had from building garden beds with edge zones in mind.
I think that gardens can be made more productive and less labor-intensive
using this principle.

I have more basic info on edge zones in:
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/permaculture

LL

Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu




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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@metalab.unc.edu>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Mulch, Tilling and Pepper Spray
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On Sun, 30 Jan 2000, Marie Kamphefner wrote:

> My favorite thing is hoeing.
>  I know, I know, I'm crazy, but I love to get out in the garden early and
> hoe around the plants.  I could do it for hours.  It seems like I draw
> energy from being in the dirt and with the plants.  I have a new high tech
> hoe from Wal Mart.  It has a fiberglass handle, it's lightweight and I get

Ah yes. Another reveler of toiling in the fields (see Millay's
(sp?) painting with similar name). Between gardening and landscaping,
second to sleeping, I have spent more time shoveling dirt than any
other activity and enjoyed every minute of it. I am a tool nut
with, at last count, about 36 D or T - handled garden spades, forks
and spadeforks. Haven't counted the hoes, rakes, manure/potato hooks,
shovels and other special purpose implements.

For really fine Japanese gardening tools see the catalog from:

Hida Tool Co.
1-800-443-5512

See their long and short-handles hoes on pps. 6 & 7;
especially Farmer Hoe (KUWA) G-2001 5" wide X 7 1/2" long
Overall length 41" with white oak handle  4 pounds
"Traditional Japanese farmer hoe. Hand forged blade, nice balance" 
$44.80 - extra wedge, $1.50


LL

Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu



From london@metalab.unc.edu Sun Jan 30 15:08:09 2000
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Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:08:29 -0500 (EST)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@metalab.unc.edu>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Pepper Spray and deer deterrence
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On Sun, 30 Jan 2000, Leigh Hauter wrote:

> We have a major deer problem  (we're located in the middle of about 10,000
> acres of unhunted private/state forest).  We have tried about everything.
<.>
> Does anyone have a fool proof solution.

1) non-electrified:

8' (or taller) metal or wood fence posts
4' hog wire starting at ground
#14 gauge galvanized EF wire or heavier high-tensite wire strung
along standoffs 1.5 - 2 ft. apart on posts.

2) electrified

same as above; can substitute single wire for hog wire
use 4 or 6 (or greater, depends on length of fence) Joule 
New Zealand-manufactured charger; either solar or
(fairly lightning-isolated) 110vAC plug in charger

I have a catalog or two for companies offering this
equipment and just about anything else animal
fence related (the best equipment manufacturers
sell to zoos as well as farmers). I can post this info if needed.
Got it all from a Websearch.

LL


Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu




From mayorsson1@hotmail.com Sun Jan 30 15:37:00 2000
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From: "Edward Marshall" <mayorsson1@hotmail.com>
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Used Transplanter
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:37:17 EST
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>From: Marie Kamphefner <kampy@netins.net>
>Reply-To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
>To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
>Subject: Used Transplanter
>Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:33:12 -0600
>
>Hello,
>
>Do any of you (especially tobacco country people) know of any place we
>could find a used transplanter reasonably priced (cheap).  ;-)
>
>Hello, Check w/ the NC AGRICULTURAL REVIEW.  They're online at 
>http//www.agr.state.nc.us/paffairs/agrevst.htm  This is a classified paper 
>that I find useful.  I would suggest that you look now, as most of the good 
>stuff goes quickly.  Edward
                                 3 Bucket Hollar
                                 Union Grove, N.Caroliner
>
>
>---

>

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From tcervinka@hotmail.com Sun Jan 30 15:40:51 2000
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From: "Tanya Cervinka" <tcervinka@hotmail.com>
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: mist box plans
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:41:00 PST
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Does anyone out there have simple and inexpensive plans for a propagation 
mist box system?  I'm looking to build a small, free-standing one with 
bottom heat.
Thanks

Tanya Cervinka
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Sun Jan 30 16:03:43 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
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Subject: Re: mist box plans
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 16:03:12 -0800
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I'd love to see plans for this, too.

Rose


From sojournr@missouri.org Sun Jan 30 16:05:39 2000
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"Lawrence F. London, Jr." wrote:
> 
> Its a pretty interesting topic and I think may offer major benefits
> for market farming. Raised beds in the shape of mandalas with crenelated
> edges, merging at the edges with other mandalas (or fractal designs of
> groups of mandalas), created with the intent of being permanent beds,
> never to be ploughed up, reshaped or moved, offer great potential
> for plant production. Nutrient conservation and recycling, exchange
> of nutrients between beds through leaching, erosion control, enhanced
> habitat for microorganisms and beneficial insects are a few of the
> benefits to be had from building garden beds with edge zones in mind.
> I think that gardens can be made more productive and less labor-intensive
> using this principle.

OK, I know there are a lot of benefits to raised beds and will most
likely move to a raised bed system as I get things going here, but what
difference does the SHAPE of the beds make?  Seems to me that laying out
"mandalas" or other odd designs would be time consuming and difficult
for little or no payback.  What's the advantage of the shape itself?

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From bg006@scn.org Sun Jan 30 16:06:35 2000
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From: bg006@scn.org (Douglas Hendrickson)
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Pepper Spray and deer deterrence
Reply-To: bg006@scn.org


Nathan:

I have heared that the GP is very effective IF your property is well 
defined by something like a hedge or fence. Otherwise they will end up 
herding the entire neighborhood. Can you verify this?

Doug Hendrickson
Salt Creek Farm
Port Angeles, WA


>
>HI,
>
>    That is one tough dog!!!But he must not have a guarding instinct if
>he eats the farm animals.
>> 
>> gone, but the dog had lapped up
>> much of the pepper juice.
>
> Does anyone have a fool proof solution.
>
>Your chicken eating dog doesn't scare away the deer?? Then you need
>another dog, one with guarding instincts, such as a Great Pyrenees. They
>are used in many places to keep the wolves, bear, and coyotes from
>eating livestock. If they can do that they can surely protect plants
>from deer. Great PYrenees like to do  perimeter guarding. I bought my
>puppy from a guy that has 7 in with his goats. As soon as he moves the
>goats to a new pasture the GP immediately patrol the perimeter, marking
>it. Now of course you don't want a 125lb. dog in with your produce but 
>if they consider your whole farm their territory then they will protect
>it all IMHO. To encourage them to perimeter patrol feed them at various
>spots along the outside of the fence. PUt their doghouse out there.
>These are very smart dogs!! Ours is 4 months old and is already starting
>to defend our property from strangers. He is gentle and loving with us
>and especially our kids. The only draw back is that he eats alot but
>that's o.k. with me. I want a BIG dog to protect us and our farm.   
>
>Just my .02
>Penny 
>Nathan Farms in SC 
>
>>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: bg006@scn.org
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')
>
>
>

From farmsted@cfw.com Sun Jan 30 16:31:55 2000
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	"direct-mkt@reeusda.gov" <direct-mkt@reeusda.gov>
Subject: farmers' markets
References: <LYR98963-34417-2000.01.29-18.45.51--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98956-34431-2000.01.29-21.59.09--farmsted#cfw.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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A new resource for Mid-Atlantic commercial market gardeners can be found
at:

http://marketfarm.homestead.com/start.html

This site has just been recently established (1-29-00), and will
eventually become a "one stop" site for direct-marketing producers and
farmers' market managers.

Jeff Ishee
Bittersweet Farmstead
Middlebrook, Virginia

From grandad@grandadsfarm.com Sun Jan 30 16:37:52 2000
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References: <LYR99136-34555-2000.01.30-14.38.00--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99119-34575-2000.01.30-16.05.38--grandad#grandadsfarm.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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> What's the advantage of the shape itself?


	Sounds like Voo Doo to me.  Maybe then I could give up the
chanting while I weed in the garden?  WE do have to do
something, maybe the vegetables would grow better if we laid out
our raised beds in some giant crop circle design or so that it
spells out something for the black helicopters to read as they
fly over?
-- 
From mailto:grandad@grandadsfarm.com and 
the Home of Grandad's Farm Magazine 
in the beautiful suburbs of Columbia, Missouri
http://www.grandadsfarm.com/

From grandad@grandadsfarm.com Sun Jan 30 16:41:29 2000
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> I have heared that the GP is very effective IF your property is well 
> defined by something like a hedge or fence. Otherwise they will end up 
> herding the entire neighborhood. Can you verify this?
> 
	I very much doubt this because Great Pyrenees do not herd, they
guard.  The amount of territory that they will guard varies from
dog to dog and the degree of threat that they determine.  I lost
a Great Pyrenees because she determined that she was needed to
protect the neighbors kids that were being abused, he poisoned
her.  
-- 
From mailto:grandad@grandadsfarm.com and 
the Home of Grandad's Farm Magazine 
in the beautiful suburbs of Columbia, Missouri
http://www.grandadsfarm.com/

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Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 16:49:34 EST
Subject: Re: Help with irrigation and mulch
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<< Straw goes for about $1.50 a bale around here, oat or wheat. What are folks
 paying for quantities to mulch a large garden with. (I realize that you are
 post-straw, I'm hoping someone else will share what they pay for straw! :-) 
>>

Allan,
    Straw in Western Washington is almost prohibitavely expensive because it 
has to be trucked over the mountains from eastern WA. In Bob's and my 
situation, add a ferry tarrif to each bale get to the farm.  If a person 
drives over to eastern WA themselves they can pick up a truck load for $0.25\ 
bale.  Delivered it costs between $3.50 and $4.50\ bale depending how long it 
has been in dry storage.
    The way I get around this expense is as a post consumer waste remediation 
service.  Every stable that will agree to use straw as bedding for their 
horses gets free hauling of their wastes.  This means once a week pick ups 
all year long.  I have made arrangements with other local organic farmers to 
take turns collecting the manured straw.  It has to be managed and composted 
which makes a superior mulch.  Management includes adding water in the summer 
months as it's piled and covering it in the winter.  
    It's free except for the labor and local trucking.  It encourages stable 
owners to be a little more eco-conscious.  A cost analysis demonstrates that 
the added cost of straw bedding for stables is made up by free disposal of 
wastes.  In addition, the community benefits by the support the stable owners 
provide to local growers.  The wastes are handled in a much more responsible 
manner than stables who just pile up manured wood chips and allow seasonal 
rains to wash the nitrates into the ground water.  Little wonder that salmon 
are on the endangered species list here.
    Collaborative agreements between agrarian businesses in a community is a 
vital part of Community Supported Agriculture.

Art Biggert
Ocean Sky Farm
Bainbridge Island, WA

From pike@always-online.com Sun Jan 30 16:57:55 2000
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References: <LYR99136-34555-2000.01.30-14.38.00--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99119-34575-2000.01.30-16.05.38--grandad#grandadsfarm.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34582-2000.01.30-16.37.51--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Production methods: tillage, beds, rows, etc.
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From: Grandad <grandad@grandadsfarm.com>
> Sounds like Voo Doo to me.  Maybe then I could give up the
> chanting while I weed in the garden?  WE do have to do
> something, maybe the vegetables would grow better if we laid out
> our raised beds in some giant crop circle design or so that it
> spells out something for the black helicopters to read as they
> fly over?

Don't be too hasty to judge-tomatoes were once presumed poisonous!

I have had DEA land to check out my okra-hmm, never tried smoking it.  Could
offer gumbo cigars this year?  Anyone wanna try?!

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, North Carolina


From pike@always-online.com Sun Jan 30 17:33:49 2000
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Subject: Re: Production methods: tillage, beds, rows, etc.
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From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. :

> I'd be interested in knowing what AC and JJ mean by "edges".

Basically, the edges of raised beds are intentional, mini-landslides.  This
recreates what happens in nature-along ditch banks, hills, etc.  Plants have
more access to air, moisture, warmth & nutrients.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, NC


From sojournr@missouri.org Sun Jan 30 17:48:46 2000
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Elizabeth Pike wrote:
> 
> From: Grandad <grandad@grandadsfarm.com>
> > Sounds like Voo Doo to me.
>
> Don't be too hasty to judge-tomatoes were once presumed poisonous!

At least there was some logic to that, due to their relationship to
known poisonous plants.  I'm open to any logic behind the mandala shape
as a raised bed.  Until I get that information, well, frankly, it sounds
like voodoo to me too.

> I have had DEA land to check out my okra-hmm, never tried smoking it.  Could
> offer gumbo cigars this year?  Anyone wanna try?!

I've got friends who's greenhouse has been raided more than once.  How
much DOES basil look like that OTHER stuff, to black helicopters,
hovering in the air, taking pictures through the greenhouse plastic? 
Apparently enough to keep 'em coming back to double check, at god knows
how much expense to the law-abiding taxpayers they keep harrassing.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From pike@always-online.com Sun Jan 30 17:51:08 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: tools
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:52:35 -0500
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Marie Kamphefner wrote:
>My favorite thing is hoeing...It seems like I draw
> energy from being in the dirt and with the plants.  I have a new high =
tech
> hoe...
=20
& from

Lawrence F. London, Jr
>I am a tool nut with, at last count, about 36 D or T - handled garden =
spades, forks
> and spadeforks. Haven't counted the hoes, rakes, manure/potato hooks,
> shovels and other special purpose implements.

Didn't y'all just love that scene in the movie "Twister" where the Helen =
Hunt's character & ex hubby ran into the barn with all the hanging =
implements??  That was my favorite part!  I've had people visit and ask =
if I wasn't scared being semi-isolated on a farm/country road & I take =
them out to show them my tools!  Who needs weapons when you're a =
farmer?!

(Sorry, a bit off topic, I know!  Couldn't resist!)

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, NC


------=_NextPart_000_00D2_01BF6B4A.CA2A8780
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3401" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">Marie Kamphefner wrote:<BR>&gt;My =
favorite=20
thing is hoeing...It seems like I draw<BR>&gt;&nbsp;energy from being in =
the=20
dirt and with the plants.&nbsp; I have a new high tech<BR>&gt;=20
hoe...<BR>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">&amp; from</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">Lawrence F. London, =
Jr</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">&gt;I am a tool nut with, at last =
count,=20
about 36 D or T - handled garden spades, forks<BR>&gt; and spadeforks. =
Haven't=20
counted the hoes, rakes, manure/potato hooks,<BR>&gt; shovels and other =
special=20
purpose implements.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">Didn't y'all just love that scene =
in the=20
movie "Twister" where the Helen Hunt's character &amp; ex hubby ran into =
the=20
barn with all the hanging&nbsp;implements??&nbsp; That was my favorite=20
part!&nbsp; I've&nbsp;had people visit&nbsp;and ask if I=20
wasn't&nbsp;scared&nbsp;being semi-isolated on a farm/country road &amp; =
I take=20
them out to show them my tools!&nbsp; Who needs weapons when you're a=20
farmer?!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">(Sorry, a bit off topic, I =
know!&nbsp;=20
Couldn't resist!)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">Liz<BR>Morningstar =
Gardens<BR>Pollocksville,=20
NC<BR></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00D2_01BF6B4A.CA2A8780--


From pike@always-online.com Sun Jan 30 18:02:15 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR99136-34555-2000.01.30-14.38.00--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99119-34575-2000.01.30-16.05.38--grandad#grandadsfarm.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34582-2000.01.30-16.37.51--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99136-34585-2000.01.30-16.57.55--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34598-2000.01.30-17.48.42--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Production methods: tillage, beds, rows, etc.
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I'm from the south-for some of us, voodoo is logical ; } !  

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, NC


From pike@always-online.com Sun Jan 30 18:12:17 2000
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Subject: Seeder
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A bed shaper is on my birthday/mother's day/Christmas wish list!

I also found the Earthway not suitable for sunflower seeds.  I have ordered
the Easy-Plant Jap-Type planter from Johnny's & hope it will save my back
this year.  Has anyone else used this, or something similar?

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, NC


From pike@always-online.com Sun Jan 30 18:21:25 2000
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Subject: Re: Production methods: tillage, beds, rows, etc.
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I had the same experience with my Earthway.

----- Original Message -----
From: Sojourner <sojournr@missouri.org>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: Production methods: tillage, beds, rows, etc.


> Rose & Fred Lieberman wrote:
> >
> > Earthway seeder which spaces certain things well, but other things
badly.
>
> Which things well, which badly?  I'll be using mine for the first time
> this spring.
>
> > We use rows for certain crops, raised beds for others.
>
> Would you mind telling us what you grow in raised beds and why?
>
> --
> Holly ;-D
> Contrary Peasant
> sojournr@missouri.org
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: pike@always-online.com
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>


From rbfarr@erols.com Sun Jan 30 18:30:25 2000
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Leigh:

I understand that a double, six foot fence will work.

One erects a six foot fence, then another 3 feet away from the first.
Though the deer could jump both if they thought about it, they can't
think about it, because their brains are pretty small.  Because they
can't figure out how to land in between the two fences, they go away.

Sounds idyllic, yes?  Don't know if it works - we haven't tried it.  But
you might fence off a small part, and see.

Alternatively, you can do what we do:  let the local rednecks fire
away.  Good eatin', too.

Robert.



From guldann@ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 30 18:35:18 2000
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Subject: Re: Production methods: tillage, beds, rows, etc.
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I will have to agree with these posts, hubby uses the earthway with good
success with corn and beans and I think peas were ok.  But small seeds not
so good and frankly I was perturbed :) here we got this cute gadget and I am
still on my hands and knees planting just about every other seed except
those above.  Beth

> I had the same experience with my Earthway.
>
> > > Rose & Fred Lieberman wrote:
> > >
> > > Earthway seeder which spaces certain things well, but other things
> badly.



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Actually, crop circles are a large part of Native American gardens.

I don't understand them - but do know they were supposed to concentrate
spiritual engery.  Perhaps the first BioDynamic gardens -

Robert.



From growing4market@earthlink.net Sun Jan 30 18:45:40 2000
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Subject: Re: Cut Flower Subscriptions
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>>Lynn - Can you pass on a list of varities that you grew for your
>>subscription flower garden?
>>
I grow about everything imaginable for florists, so I didn't do anything
different for the pyo people. They had free range in all the fields.
Actually, I did grow a few hundred glads for them, which I never grow for
florists because they're so cheap in summer. As for insurance, our company
is called Goodville Mutual, based in New Holland, PA, but they're licensed
in only eight states. Also, the agent made it pretty clear that because we
"know" all our subscription customers - they have been our veggie CSA
customers for a decade - the pyo would be covered as part of the general
farm liability. However, he warned that if we opened it up for retail PYO,
that would be a different situation and we would need to get additional
coverage, and I did not think to ask whether Goodville also offers it. Good
luck!


From BBGREGSON@cs.com Sun Jan 30 18:47:08 2000
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From: BBGREGSON@cs.com
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Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 18:47:21 EST
Subject: Re: Help with irrigation and mulch
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Hi Allan-
Straw....was probably wheat most of the time (we did that for 5 or 6 years), 
at $2.50 per small bale.  The worst was organic (!) because it was very 
weedy.  Now straw in this area runs about $4 per bale. 
jBob G.

From BBGREGSON@cs.com Sun Jan 30 19:06:45 2000
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From: BBGREGSON@cs.com
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Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 19:06:59 EST
Subject: Re: Pepper Spray and deer deterrence
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Penny---
Some thoughts on Great Pyrenees, based on experience here.  Wonderful dogs.  
As they mature they don't eat much at all.  And they absolutely keep deer 
away.  The downside is that ours, at least, barked off and on all night long 
every night and nearly drove us crazy.  He had no "streetsmarts" and was 
ultimately killed by a car.  But a terrific animal.
Bob G., Island Meadow Farm, Vashon WA

From BBGREGSON@cs.com Sun Jan 30 19:14:23 2000
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From: BBGREGSON@cs.com
Message-ID: <fb.192e049.25c62dec@cs.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 19:14:36 EST
Subject: Re: Production methods: tillage, beds, rows, etc.
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Holly--
Agree with you that unusual shapes for raised beds suggest trouble.  We did a 
circular pattern for two seasons.  It was a disaster to till and irrigate.  
But pretty until the weeds in the paths got too aggressive.  Now our paths 
are all mowable grass or ground cloth.
Bob G.

From igg@igg.com Sun Jan 30 19:41:42 2000
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Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 19:39:10 -0400
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Allan Balliett <igg@igg.com>
Subject: Re: Cut Flower Subscriptions
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"


>I grow about everything imaginable for florists, so I didn't do anything
>different for the pyo people. They had free range in all the fields.
>Actually, I did grow a few hundred glads for them, which I never grow for
>florists because they're so cheap in summer.

Lynn - I'd just be starting cut flowers this season. (And, yes, I 
have your book!) I'd sure like to have some explicit suggestions on 
what to grow (from my point of view and from the customer's point of 
view). Also, I'm interested in where you would recommend I buy 
gladiola bulbs as I get started.

Thanks

-Allan Balliett
-- 

From igg@igg.com Sun Jan 30 19:42:03 2000
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References: 
 <LYR99136-34555-2000.01.30-14.38.00--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.un
 c.edu>
 <LYR99119-34575-2000.01.30-16.05.38--grandad#grandadsfarm.com@franklin.oit
 .unc.edu>
 <LYR99215-34582-2000.01.30-16.37.51--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu
 > <LYR98999-34607-2000.01.30-18.41.10--igg#igg.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 19:42:40 -0400
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Allan Balliett <igg@igg.com>
Subject: Re: Production methods: tillage, beds, rows, etc.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"


>Actually, crop circles are a large part of Native American gardens.
>
>I don't understand them - but do know they were supposed to concentrate
>spiritual engery.  Perhaps the first BioDynamic gardens -
>
>Robert.

Hmm, I think this is why the word 'biodynamic' was tradmarked!! :-)

I thought a 'crop circle' was a paranormal event, a big flattening in 
a grain field or something.

I've seen african gardens where the plantings are circular, but I 
haven't noticed Native American Gardens where they were circular. In 
fact, I've always been impressed with how unstructured Native 
American plantings tend to be. I'd be intereted in more information 
on Native American 'crop circles.'

Thanks

-Allan Balliett
moderator
Biodynamics Now!
www.igg.com/bdnow
-- 

From pike@always-online.com Sun Jan 30 19:52:22 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-34584-2000.01.30-16.49.16--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Horse manure/sawdust
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 19:53:53 -0500
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Art, our area stables use sawdust.  Is there an advantage to the straw over
sawdust?  I've hesitated to use this resource since I'm not sure if the
sawdust would break down enough in a compost pile & I prefer straw.  But the
stable owners would rather get the free sawdust than pay for straw.  Storage
of manure is no problem as these stables are in no crunch for land.   They
just dump it in the back field.   Not enough me's for me to cooperate with
to get them to use straw.  So we're doing the next best thing.  Getting
horses.  (dd is planning to teach riding lessons to future CSA members'
kids!)

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, NC


From pike@always-online.com Sun Jan 30 19:53:22 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
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Subject: smorgasbord
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 19:54:50 -0500
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Sorry about previous Earthway email-dog hit send before I was finished!  =
I will compile several responses in this one-I know, I've been quite =
chatty today-sorry, cabin fever!

The Earthway seeder is best for small to medium sized seed.  Large seeds =
get stuck or cracked & tiny seeds are spaced too close.  It also depends =
on your soil, so you have to play around with it. =20
- - - - -  - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I use almost all raised beds.  I have to or I'd never get my concrete =
clay to grow anything.  Sunflowers have been the exception, which I sow =
in rows on land tilled by our conventional farmer-lessee.=20
- - - - -  - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Deer problems-our farm lays in between a 1500 acre private historical =
crop/tree farm-forest & several thousand acres of other farms & a =
national forest.  Our garden sits in the middle of the property, no =
fence & we've never had anything ('cept wild dogs) come within 25'.  The =
only thing I've done has been to put out bird tape.  I come home & count =
10-15 head in the field next door, but never in my garden.  I know =
they're hunted to extremes (& don't even get me started on hunting with =
dogs-lazy man's way to do it) & I wonder if they're just plain scared!  =
(No, I'm not against hunting-just fixed venison chili for the Super =
Bowl-but when you let dogs run them to death to wear them out at your =
feet so you can lean off your truck to shoot, that just ain't fighting =
fair!)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -=20
For Penny:  "...Pea Sugar Lace. THis is what Park's says
"No stakes, no strings, almost no leaves-just peas! Masses of stingless,
tender 3 1/2" pods are perfect to eat straight from the garden."=20

Cut their hype in 1/2 , and you'll get a more accurate picture! (As is =
true with most gardening catalogs.)  I've ordered some to try.  If you =
do, let me know & we'll compare notes.
- - - - -  - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I printed out the first farm market study from Beth-47 pages-now I'm =
outta ink to print the study referred by Don!  If only I could move =
computer closer to the fire.
- - - - -  - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dogs-we just bought a border collie.  We've had advice, for when we =
restock our chickens, to get a border collie pup  & raise it in the pen, =
right along with the chicks.  (For those who don't know, we had wild =
dogs destroy a flock of 80 chickens & 5 meat rabbits last year, not =
once, but twice , 40 chicks the last time).  Before doing this though, I =
wanted to get to know the breed.  He is a great herder, as witnessed by =
all our holey socks (around the ankles) & chewed shoe strings.  As for =
protection, he's still a bit young.  He really likes the UPS man & barks =
at rain-don't know if this is a good sign!  He is great for staying =
right where the "herd" is, rarely moves far from us or the house.  =20
- - - - -  - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Sue-"I have a few of these type studies from other states..." =20

Are any of these available for reading online??=20
- - - - -  - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>From Beth: " But with winter we will never be able to supply our CSA
or farm stand year round with only products from our garden =
(disregarding
any fabulous season extenders).  So our customers/members go back to the
grocery store. "

Has anyone seen/read the latest Mother Earth News?  I've read Eliot =
Coleman, & I'm no Eliot Coleman.   But his writings have had me anxious =
to experiment with season extension.  If he can do it in Maine, surely I =
can do it in zone8 NC.  What I liked best about this article (nothing =
new actually than what he's said in his books), are the pics .  I'm the =
kind of "show me, don't tell me" person, & now I wished I'd built a =
bigger greenhouse.   He's gone back to market gardening/farming.  My =
ultimate goal is to keep my customers coming to me 12 months of the year =
(it's cheaper to retain customers than to win new ones), at least for a =
few items, or as many as I can reasonably produce without alot of =
artificial intervention-I won't try to grow tomatos in January.   This =
may of interest to you, Beth.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, NC

------=_NextPart_000_0233_01BF6B5B.DE81AEA0
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3401" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">Sorry about previous Earthway =
email-dog hit=20
send before I was finished!&nbsp; I will compile several responses in =
this one-I=20
know, I've been quite chatty today-sorry, cabin fever!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">The Earthway seeder is best for =
small to=20
medium sized seed.&nbsp; Large seeds get stuck or cracked &amp; tiny =
seeds are=20
spaced&nbsp;too close.&nbsp; It also depends on your soil, so you have =
to play=20
around with it.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">- - - - -&nbsp; - - - - - - - - - =
- - -=20
-</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">I use almost all raised =
beds.&nbsp; I have=20
to or I'd never get my concrete clay to grow =
anything.&nbsp;&nbsp;Sunflowers=20
have been the exception, which I sow in rows on land tilled by our =
conventional=20
farmer-lessee. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">- - - - -&nbsp; - - - - - - - - - =
- - -=20
-</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">Deer problems-our farm lays in =
between a=20
1500 acre private historical crop/tree farm-forest &amp; several =
thousand acres=20
of other farms &amp; a national forest.&nbsp; Our garden sits in the =
middle of=20
the property, no fence &amp; we've never had anything ('cept&nbsp;wild =
dogs)=20
come within 25'.&nbsp; The only thing I've done has been to put out bird =

tape.&nbsp; I&nbsp;come home &amp; count&nbsp;10-15 head in the field =
next door,=20
but never in my garden.&nbsp; I know they're hunted to extremes (&amp; =
don't=20
even get me started on hunting with dogs-lazy man's way to do it) &amp; =
I wonder=20
if they're just plain scared!&nbsp; (No, I'm not against hunting-just =
fixed=20
venison chili for the Super Bowl-but when you let dogs run them to death =
to wear=20
them out at your feet so you can lean off your truck to shoot, that just =
ain't=20
fighting fair!)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">For Penny:&nbsp; "...Pea Sugar =
Lace. THis is=20
what Park's says<BR>"No stakes, no strings, almost no leaves-just peas! =
Masses=20
of stingless,<BR>tender 3 1/2" pods are perfect to eat straight from the =

garden." </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">Cut their hype in 1/2 , and you'll =
get a=20
more accurate picture!&nbsp;(As is true with most gardening =
catalogs.)&nbsp;=20
I've ordered some to try.&nbsp; If you do, let me know &amp; we'll =
compare=20
notes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">- - - - -&nbsp; - - - - - - - - - =
- - -=20
-</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">I printed out the first farm =
market study=20
from Beth-47 pages-now I'm outta ink to print the study referred by =
Don!&nbsp;=20
If only I could move computer closer to the fire.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">- - - - -&nbsp; - - - - - - - - - =
- - -=20
-</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">Dogs-we just bought a border =
collie.&nbsp;=20
We've had advice, for when we restock our chickens, to get a border =
collie=20
pup&nbsp; &amp; raise it in the pen, right along with the chicks.&nbsp; =
(For=20
those who don't know, we had wild dogs destroy a flock of 80 chickens =
&amp; 5=20
meat rabbits last year, not once, but twice , 40 chicks the last =
time).&nbsp;=20
Before doing this though, I wanted to get to know the breed.&nbsp; He is =
a great=20
herder, as witnessed by all our holey socks (around the ankles) &amp; =
chewed=20
shoe strings.&nbsp; As for protection, he's still a bit young.&nbsp; He =
really=20
likes the UPS man &amp; barks at rain-don't know if this is a good =
sign!&nbsp;=20
He is great for staying right where the "herd" is, rarely moves far from =
us or=20
the house.&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">- - - - -&nbsp; - - - - - - - - - =
- - -=20
-</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">Sue-"I have a few of these type =
studies from=20
other states..."&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">Are any of these available for =
reading=20
online??&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">- - - - -&nbsp; - - - - - - - - - =
- - -=20
-</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">From Beth:&nbsp;"&nbsp;But with =
winter we=20
will never be able to supply our CSA<BR>or farm stand year round with =
only=20
products from our garden (disregarding<BR>any fabulous season =
extenders).&nbsp;=20
So our customers/members go back to the<BR>grocery =
store.&nbsp;"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">Has anyone seen/read the latest =
Mother Earth=20
News?&nbsp; I've read Eliot Coleman, &amp; I'm no Eliot =
Coleman.&nbsp;&nbsp; But=20
his writings have had me anxious to experiment with season =
extension.&nbsp; If=20
he can do it in Maine, surely I can do it in zone8 NC.&nbsp; What I =
liked best=20
about this article (nothing new actually than what he's said in&nbsp;his =
books),=20
are the&nbsp;pics .&nbsp; I'm the kind of "show me, don't tell me" =
person,=20
&amp;&nbsp;now I wished I'd built a bigger greenhouse.&nbsp;&nbsp; He's =
gone=20
back to market gardening/farming.&nbsp; My ultimate goal is to keep my =
customers=20
coming to me 12 months of the year (it's cheaper to retain customers =
than to win=20
new ones), at least for a few items, or as many as I can reasonably =
produce=20
without alot of artificial intervention-I won't try to grow tomatos in=20
January.&nbsp;&nbsp; This may of interest to you, Beth.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">Liz<BR>Morningstar =
Gardens<BR>Pollocksville,=20
NC</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0233_01BF6B5B.DE81AEA0--


From pike@always-online.com Sun Jan 30 19:58:50 2000
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Message-ID: <023f01bf6b86$8ebffe00$02000003@default>
From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR99215-34538-2000.01.30-12.55.32--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34605-2000.01.30-18.30.24--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Pepper Spray and deer deterrence
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 20:00:23 -0500
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AM Leonard (www.amleo.com) sells deer fence, but what is interesting is
their illustration showing the fence leaning outward at about a 50* angle.
They also say to keep it loose to waiver in the wind, & keep deer from
focusing on it.

Might help!

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, NC




From sojournr@missouri.org Sun Jan 30 20:02:27 2000
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Production methods: tillage, beds, rows, etc.
References: <LYR99136-34613-2000.01.30-19.14.22--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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BBGREGSON@cs.com wrote:
> 
> Holly--
> Agree with you that unusual shapes for raised beds suggest trouble.  We did a
> circular pattern for two seasons.  It was a disaster to till and irrigate.
> But pretty until the weeds in the paths got too aggressive.  Now our paths
> are all mowable grass or ground cloth.

Well, esthetics is as good a reason as any for this sort of thing, I
guess - at least on a small scale, say for your own personal herb garden
or a small kitchen garden outside your back door.

But it just strikes me as being more trouble than its worth when there's
no practical payback in your market garden.

At least, for me it would be.  Other people may put more emphasis on
esthetics or "spirituality" or whatever, but unless its gonna make my
crops grow a whole lot better I'll pass on this sort of thing on a large
scale.

I'm vacillating between flat out planting to dutch white clover and then
tilling some narrow swaths for planting, and planting to dutch white
clover in the paths and using that big huge mound of sod that was
scraped off my driveway and is currently sitting there rotting away to
build up raised beds between paths.

Maybe I'll do both and see how it works.  Decisions decisions decisions.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From sojournr@missouri.org Sun Jan 30 20:12:20 2000
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Pepper Spray and deer deterrence
References: <LYR99215-34538-2000.01.30-12.55.32--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34605-2000.01.30-18.30.24--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99136-34619-2000.01.30-19.58.49--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Elizabeth Pike wrote:
> 
> AM Leonard (www.amleo.com) sells deer fence, but what is interesting is
> their illustration showing the fence leaning outward at about a 50* angle.
> They also say to keep it loose to waiver in the wind, & keep deer from
> focusing on it.

Another method I've seen suggested (but never tried, my dogs keep the
deer away or at least on the move) is to lay field fence or chicken wire
flat, just slightly suspended above the ground (like lay it up on rocks
or something) for something like 8' or 10' around the garden. 
Supposedly if it looks too wide to jump (deer are supposed to dislike
broad jumps as opposed to high jumps) if they try to walk through it
they don't like the feeling of getting their hoofies tangled up in the
openings so they'll pass on by.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From pike@always-online.com Sun Jan 30 20:13:56 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: freezing
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 20:15:28 -0500
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I'm just reading the study referred by Don. ( =
http://aesop.rutgers.edu/htbin/frumkt.com)

"One can take advantage of this situation by freezing unsold berries, =
and selling
them in various quantities at a later date."

Do any of you freeze your excess whatever & sell it later??  Would this =
be regulated by health departments??  (Ready-to-eat versus prepare it =
yourself & assume responsibility)?

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, NC

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">I'm just reading the study =
referred by=20
Don.&nbsp;( <A=20
href=3D"http://aesop.rutgers.edu/htbin/frumkt.com">http://aesop.rutgers.e=
du/htbin/frumkt.com</A>)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">"One can take advantage of this =
situation by=20
freezing unsold berries, and selling<BR>them in various quantities at a =
later=20
date."<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">Do any of you freeze your excess =
whatever=20
&amp; sell it later??&nbsp; Would this be regulated by health=20
departments??&nbsp; (Ready-to-eat versus prepare it yourself &amp; =
assume=20
responsibility)?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">Liz<BR>Morningstar =
Gardens<BR>Pollocksville,=20
NC</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From fullcircle@jps.net Sun Jan 30 20:21:18 2000
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Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:20:51 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Help with irrigation - domestic well use


Here I go again, this time on irrigation.  I just realized I could teach a
1 hr class on this and still have stuff left, so I'll break it up.

Fastest way to measure your well output.   You need

A short length of hose connected as closely as possible to the well-head.
A watch with a second hand.
An accurate measure of at least 1 gallon with marks at 1/2 And 1/4.  You
can prepare this by recycling a one gallon jug in your kitchen and
measuring accurately with a measuring cup.
A five gallon bucket and a funnel.
This is easier with two people, but not necessary.

Turn the hose on full bore.  Start at a convenient second hand point.
Stuff the hose in the 5 gallon bucket, let run for 15 seconds and remove
the hose immediately.

Carefully measure the amount of water captured in the 5 gallon bucket.
Mutliply this amount by 4 and you have gallons per minute.  Multiply that
amount by 60 and you have gallons per hour.

Things to remember when planning an irrigation system:

If you're running off a domestic well -
Domestic wells have pressure tanks and regulators on them to provide water
to the household appliances at something that approximates urban/suburban
water systems pressure, generally, around 60psi.  Our regulator turns on
the pump to fill the pressure tank until water can be delivered at 60psi,
then shuts off.  When we draw water, and the ability of the pressure tank
falls to 40 psi, the regulatory turns the pump on to refill  and
repressureize the tank.

You want to draw enough water when you irrigate to keep the pump running
continuously rather than kicking on and off frequently.  The on and off
cycle is really wearing on the pressure regulator and the electronics.

You also need to be mindful of the recharge capacity of your well.  This is
the rate water from the surrounding strata rushes into the area where your
pumphead is.  Pull too much water out too quickly, and you may run low,
have to shut down and wait for the well to recharge.

Also, to keep from contaminating your well with backflow, put an
anti-syphon valve on your irrigation main as it leaves the well.  We start
with 1 inch PVC going to the plots and have an anti-syphon valve on it.
Additionally, I use 3/4 inch electric anti-syphon valves at the standpipes
at each plot head.  I run 3/4 inch black headers off those valves.

We irrigate off our domestic well.  It puts out 10 gallons per minute
running full open 24 hours per day with no recharge problems.  I plan my
irrigation to use 8gpm, or 80% of my well capacity, so I have a cushion.  I
also plan it so I can irrigate everything in 6 days so I have a cushion
there.  We use Toro irrigation clocks to run the watering program.

Good references on country plumbing and irrigation are:

Irrigation Scheduling: A Guide for Efficient on Farm Water Management 21454
$7.00
Micro-irrigation of Trees and Vines 3378 $25.00
Drip Irrigation for Row crops 3376 $25.00

All available from Univ. of CA Ag and Natural Resources 1-800-994-8849 or
make a check payable to UC Regents and send it to UCANR Communications
Services, 6701 San Pablo AVe., Oakland, CA. 94608-1239.  If you live in CA,
you may be able to buy these at your local extension office.  You'll get
them faster that way.


Somebody help out here, I've loaned my copy of a book called Country
Plumbing.  It talks all about wells, water and septic systems, but that's
as much as I can give until I get my book back.









Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From fullcircle@jps.net Sun Jan 30 20:21:35 2000
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Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:20:51 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Community
Cc: BBGREGSON@cs.com


>Shelley's comments about letting the community know we're here are right on.
>After the WTO inspiration---and it absolutely was for those who attended the
>"alternative" farmer day---a group of us have started to meet on Vashon
>Island to develop a new food system, starting with our community.  So far
>we've a vision and mission statement and are now wondering how best to
>approach the broader community to start the wheels turning.  The crucial
>linkage is consumer to farmer.  Without that connection, all is lost.  With
>it, all is possible.
>Bob Gregson, Island Meadow Farm, Vashon, WA


Bob,

This sounds really exciting, I'm forwarding your post to the Community
Supported Agriculture lists.  You should get some great help on community
building.  Here's want they are and how to subscribe.

CSA-l from prairienet. This is the original, John just unsubscribed
everyone because of the bounce-backs form bad addresses and the
unsubscribes posted to the list. FYI January and June bring huge
unsubscribe requests to all lists as students move on.

To subscribe send an e-mail to listproc@prairienet.org with subscribe CSA-L
and your first name and last name in the message body. OR go to the website
at http://www.prairienet.org/pcsa/CSA-L/subscribing.html and fill out the
form.

The other list is the new MetaLab list started by Lawrence London whose
posts have appeared here.

To subscribe to that list send an e-mail to lyris@franklin.oit.unc.edu with
subscribe csa your_name in either the subject or message body, OR go to the
website at http://franklin.oit.unc.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=csa.

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From fullcircle@jps.net Sun Jan 30 20:21:49 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Straw mulch  


Hi  Allan,

Plain wheat or oat straw here in the nothern California foothills costs
$3.50 per bale.

We use it only to bury potato beds, instead of hilling.

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From fullcircle@jps.net Sun Jan 30 20:22:01 2000
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Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:20:51 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Subject headings


Hi guys,

A bit of housekeeping.  I know it's hard to remember so much stuff when
such exciting discussions are happening.  This list is truly my dream list.

Please try to make sure the subject of your post pertains to what your
talking about.  It will make retrieving data from the archives possible.

The latest thread on " help with irrigation and mulch" is a good example.
The majority of the posts have been really good stuff about mulches.  And,
while the topic is listed in the subject line, it may not be readily
evident that such a robust discussion mulch took place by looking at a
subject called " help with irrigation and mulch."

I know I intend to do archive searches frequently and hope the rest of you
will too.  Under this subject we've had really good discussions on straw
mulch, living mulch, and now fabric mulch, plus some good stuff on
irrigation.  Had we used these subjects in the subject line, retrieving
this info in July would be easier.

Right, er OK, er carry on...

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From london@metalab.unc.edu Sun Jan 30 20:22:27 2000
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Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 20:22:11 -0500 (EST)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@metalab.unc.edu>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Production methods: tillage, beds, rows, etc.
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On Sun, 30 Jan 2000, Sojourner wrote:

> "Lawrence F. London, Jr." wrote:

> > for plant production. Nutrient conservation and recycling, exchange
> > of nutrients between beds through leaching, erosion control, enhanced
> > habitat for microorganisms and beneficial insects are a few of the
> > benefits to be had from building garden beds with edge zones in mind.
> > I think that gardens can be made more productive and less labor-intensive
> > using this principle.

This is (in part) the answer to your question below.

> OK, I know there are a lot of benefits to raised beds and will most
> likely move to a raised bed system as I get things going here, but what
> difference does the SHAPE of the beds make?  Seems to me that laying out

Its the _edges_ (crenelated, natural/random) that make the mandala-shaped
raised bed work. It requires more planning anf labor initially but offers
(potentially) a bigger payback than rectangular, square or round beds, and
certainly rows or row-beds).

> "mandalas" or other odd designs would be time consuming and difficult
> for little or no payback.  What's the advantage of the shape itself?

See above. They would take more time to build so creating a few as an
experiment each year might be an interesting way to approach this new
production method.

LL

Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu




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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Production methods: tillage, beds, rows, etc.
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On Sun, 30 Jan 2000, Grandad wrote:

> > What's the advantage of the shape itself?

> 	Sounds like Voo Doo to me.  Maybe then I could give up the

Its not Voodoo. Think ecology, soil/water/natural
resource/wildlife/nutrient conservation. Nothing magic about that;
its all science - well, almost....

LL

Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu




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On Sun, 30 Jan 2000, Elizabeth Pike wrote:

> From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. :
> 
> > I'd be interested in knowing what AC and JJ mean by "edges".
> 
> Basically, the edges of raised beds are intentional, mini-landslides.  This
> recreates what happens in nature-along ditch banks, hills, etc.  Plants have
> more access to air, moisture, warmth & nutrients.

Pure genius. The Chinese do this when they manually dredge their (drained)
irrigation canals between production fields. The rich silt is then put
back on the fields as fertilizer.

Mulching between raised beds all they way to the tops of the beds allows
for no loss of bed soil and recycles nutrient-rich leachate from the beds
by absorbing it for redelivery to the beds - also reduces the need for
irrigation.

LL


Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu





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Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 20:34:33 -0500 (EST)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@metalab.unc.edu>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Production methods: tillage, beds, rows, etc.
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On Sun, 30 Jan 2000, Sojourner wrote:

> I'm open to any logic behind the mandala shape
> as a raised bed.  Until I get that information, well, frankly, it sounds
> like voodoo to me too.

Read Bill Mollison's book "Permaculture: A Design Manual". He explains
zones, edges, crenelation and mandalas in detail. No voodoo.

Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu




From london@metalab.unc.edu Sun Jan 30 20:38:41 2000
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On Sun, 30 Jan 2000, Elizabeth Pike wrote:

> I'm from the south-for some of us, voodoo is logical ; } !  

Shhhhh... 

Lots of books linking gardening with nature spirits in a mystical 
view of working with Nature. Farmer's Almanac; planting by the signs of
the moon; Biodynamics - similar.

LL


From london@metalab.unc.edu Sun Jan 30 20:43:34 2000
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On Sun, 30 Jan 2000, Allan Balliett wrote:

> I've seen african gardens where the plantings are circular, but I 
> haven't noticed Native American Gardens where they were circular. In 
> fact, I've always been impressed with how unstructured Native 
> American plantings tend to be. I'd be intereted in more information 
> on Native American 'crop circles.'

John Jeavons has spent years developing gardening methods using
circular beds wherein a variety of crops are grown. He calls then Food
Circles I think and has taught this method in many foreign countries.


From london@metalab.unc.edu Sun Jan 30 20:45:41 2000
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Subject: Re: Horse manure/sawdust
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On Sun, 30 Jan 2000, Elizabeth Pike wrote:

> Art, our area stables use sawdust.  Is there an advantage to the straw over
> sawdust?  I've hesitated to use this resource since I'm not sure if the
> sawdust would break down enough in a compost pile & I prefer straw.  But the

Sawdust from horse stables will break down plenty quick, without
supplemental watering. Makes beautiful rich smooth compost rich
in microorganisms. 


From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Sun Jan 30 21:08:34 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Help with irrigation - domestic well use
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:07:47 -0800
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What a great post, Marcie.  A real keeper!

Every time I come to the computer I seem to learn more and more.  And to
think , when I woke up this morning I knew bupkas about irrigation.

What a difference a day makes.

Rose


From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Sun Jan 30 21:11:16 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Weather forecasting...
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:10:36 -0800
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My husband, the scientist in this partnership, has a penchant for weather.

He would like to know if anyone investigates weather more than just looking
out the window and getting the 5-day forecast from the news.

Does anyone do any active weather forecasting?  How much of a part in the
farm production does it play?  And what exactly do you do to forecast?
Equipment?  Sunspot activity?  What?

Rose, for Fred


From pike@always-online.com Sun Jan 30 21:31:39 2000
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Subject: Re: Weather forecasting...
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:25:20 -0500
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Interesting.  The one sign I look for the most is the old "red sky at night,
sailor's delight, red sky in the morning,  sailor's take warning."  It has
proven extremely true.  2 days before Hurricane Floyd, the morning sunrise
was the reddest I've ever seen, though the hurricane itself was a pussycat.
In other instances, I can tell if the weather man's forecast for an upcoming
storm is really as bad as he says.   It's the very first thing I look for
every single morning.  I look for a freeze on nights with no clouds & no
wind & temps .  If we get a frost before the middle of OctoberFollowing a
first frost in mid-October, I can usually count on 4 weeks of frostless
nights.  If the frost is closer to the end of Octo
----- Original Message -----
From: Rose & Fred Lieberman <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 12:10 AM
Subject: Weather forecasting...


> My husband, the scientist in this partnership, has a penchant for weather.
>
> He would like to know if anyone investigates weather more than just
looking
> out the window and getting the 5-day forecast from the news.
>
> Does anyone do any active weather forecasting?  How much of a part in the
> farm production does it play?  And what exactly do you do to forecast?
> Equipment?  Sunspot activity?  What?
>
> Rose, for Fred
>
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: pike@always-online.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>
>


From whistle@halcyon.com Sun Jan 30 21:48:22 2000
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Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 18:37:00 -0800
Subject: Re:border collie pup as herd protector
From: "Shelley Pasco" <whistle@halcyon.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--MS_Mac_OE_3032102220_5139225_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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Liz, about the border collie pup and chickens--

You may already know that the herding instinct is a human modification of
the prey drive. Basically what happens is in herding is that we train the
herd-dog to "fetch" the flock, or "prey" to ourselves, the alpha "dog". In
dog culture the alpha dog does the killing and assigns roles to the lesser
dogs. We stop it at the point where we pen the flock.

My experience is that if you leave the dog alone with the flock, he WILL
take some of the prey. I presently have a cattle-dog/border collie cross
that I am taking to herd-dog school, and hopefully he will be able to help
in moving my pigs and chickens. I was explicitly told by the instructor not
to leave my pup alone with the livestock, and even not to let him near the
livestock off-leash until he learned voice control. That is, the commands
that will stop him in his tracks. Also, keep in mind that border collies are
among the smartest dog breeds, and keeping company with chickens may be too
much to ask of him.

If you ever intend to use him for herding, you must NEVER correct him for
chasing the livestock, and the easiest way to do that is not let him near
it.

My previous australian shepherd pup was killed by a car last summer, and he
was a proficient chicken killer (he licked them to death) even at just 5
months old.

Shelley
Whistling Train Farm
Kent, WA
\
--MS_Mac_OE_3032102220_5139225_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re:border collie pup as herd protector</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF">
Liz, about the border collie pup and chickens--<BR>
<BR>
You may already know that the herding instinct is a human modification of t=
he prey drive. Basically what happens is in herding is that we train the her=
d-dog to &quot;fetch&quot; the flock, or &quot;prey&quot; to ourselves, the =
alpha &quot;dog&quot;. In dog culture the alpha dog does the killing and ass=
igns roles to the lesser dogs. We stop it at the point where we pen the floc=
k. <BR>
<BR>
My experience is that if you leave the dog alone with the flock, he WILL ta=
ke some of the prey. I presently have a cattle-dog/border collie cross that =
I am taking to herd-dog school, and hopefully he will be able to help in mov=
ing my pigs and chickens. I was explicitly told by the instructor not to lea=
ve my pup alone with the livestock, and even not to let him near the livesto=
ck off-leash until he learned voice control. That is, the commands that will=
 stop him in his tracks. Also, keep in mind that border collies are among th=
e smartest dog breeds, and keeping company with chickens may be too much to =
ask of him.<BR>
<BR>
If you ever intend to use him for herding, you must NEVER correct him for c=
hasing the livestock, and the easiest way to do that is not let him near it.=
<BR>
<BR>
My previous australian shepherd pup was killed by a car last summer, and he=
 was a proficient chicken killer (he licked them to death) even at just 5 mo=
nths old.<BR>
<BR>
Shelley <BR>
Whistling Train Farm<BR>
Kent, WA<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>\</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>

--MS_Mac_OE_3032102220_5139225_MIME_Part--


From whistle@halcyon.com Sun Jan 30 21:48:25 2000
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Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 18:38:53 -0800
Subject: Re: freezing
From: "Shelley Pasco" <whistle@halcyon.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand
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Liz,
 I don't know about anyone else, but in our (King) county in Washington,
freezing constitutes a "processed food" and must be done in a certified
kitchen, with a health department license.
Shelley
Whistling Train Farm
Kent, WA

----------
From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: freezing
Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000, 5:15 PM


I'm just reading the study referred by Don. (
http://aesop.rutgers.edu/htbin/frumkt.com)

"One can take advantage of this situation by freezing unsold berries, and
selling
them in various quantities at a later date."
Do any of you freeze your excess whatever & sell it later??  Would this be
regulated by health departments??  (Ready-to-eat versus prepare it yourself
& assume responsibility)?

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, NC


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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: freezing</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF">
Liz,<BR>
&nbsp;I don't know about anyone else, but in our (King) county in Washingto=
n, freezing constitutes a &quot;processed food&quot; and must be done in a c=
ertified kitchen, with a health department license.<BR>
Shelley<BR>
Whistling Train Farm<BR>
Kent, WA<BR>
<BR>
----------<BR>
From: &quot;Elizabeth Pike&quot; &lt;pike@always-online.com&gt;<BR>
To: &quot;market farming&quot; &lt;market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu&gt;<=
BR>
Subject: freezing<BR>
Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2000, 5:15 PM<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>I'm just reading the study referred by Don. ( <FONT COLOR=3D"#000=
0FF"><U>http://aesop.rutgers.edu/htbin/frumkt.com</U></FONT>)<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
&quot;One can take advantage of this situation by freezing unsold berries, =
and selling<BR>
them in various quantities at a later date.&quot;<BR>
Do any of you freeze your excess whatever &amp; sell it later?? &nbsp;Would=
 this be regulated by health departments?? &nbsp;(Ready-to-eat versus prepar=
e it yourself &amp; assume responsibility)?<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
Liz<BR>
Morningstar Gardens<BR>
Pollocksville, NC<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>

--MS_Mac_OE_3032102333_5146027_MIME_Part--


From pike@always-online.com Sun Jan 30 22:25:01 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-34638-2000.01.30-21.11.16--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34640-2000.01.30-21.31.38--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Weather forecasting...
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:26:19 -0500
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Once again, pup hit send before I was finished-Here's the corrected version!

 Interesting.  The one sign I look for the most is the old "red sky at
night,
sailor's delight, red sky in the morning,  sailor's take warning."  It has
proven extremely true.  2 days before Hurricane Floyd, the morning sunrise
was the reddest I've ever seen, though the hurricane itself was a pussycat.
In other instances, I can tell if the weather man's forecast for an upcoming
storm is really as bad as he says.   It's the very first thing I look for
every single morning.

I can usually count on a frost on nights with no clouds or wind & forecast
temps in the 40s.  If we get a frost during the first 2 weeks of October, I
can usually count on 4 more weeks of frostless nights.  If the first frost
occurs in the 3rd or 4th weeks, I must prepare long term protection of
plants until they're harvested (row covers, mulch, etc) as we will have
numerous frosts.

And as for snow, if the jet stream dips low & we've got cloud cover south of
us-we'll get snow.  Usually foretold by a ring around the moon!  (sorry,
voodoo anyone?)

April 15 is usually our last frost & March 15 our last hard freeze.  If we
have rainy weather during the first week of March, our hard freezes are
generally over.  I've found the same to be true for April.

I can tell by my cats & other animals when a hurricane is approaching (they
get very jumpy), though I prefer the NOAA internet sight for exact info!
When the eye is above us-they calm down.

I'm as fascinated by weather as by farming.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, NC



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From: "Ellen Rainwalker" <rainwalk@mars.ark.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: market-farming digest: January 29, 2000
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 19:04:36 -0800
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Ellen & Shepard Ogden at Cooks Garden in Vermont used to do pick-your-own
bouquets before they became a seed company. They might be able to give you
some advice. Their website is http://www.cooksgarden.com.

Ellen Rainwalker
Vancouver Island, BC

From SCook21809@aol.com Sun Jan 30 22:43:44 2000
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Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:44:02 EST
Subject: Re: Horse manure/sawdust
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<< Is there an advantage to the straw over sawdust?  I've hesitated to use 
this resource since I'm not sure if the sawdust would break down enough in a 
compost pile & I prefer straw.  >>

Liz,
    You are right about sawdust.  It is a very complex carbohydrate with 
lignin.  Bacteria can not use saw dust as a food scource.  Only fungi use 
lignins and complex carbohydrates as food sources. Fungi reproduce and 
decompose organic matter much slower than bacteria.  Manured straw takes six 
weeks to three months to break down depending on how it is managed.  Manured 
wood chips take up to three years to compost completely.  Manured wood chips 
are better for herbacious and perenial plants than manured straw compost 
because those plants require the synergenic fungal populations to collect 
nutrients for them.  But as a CSA farmer, I grow primarily annuals which like 
bacterially mediated soils and compost.   
    I still use the manured wood chip compost for my perenial plantings such 
as asparagus, cane berries, etc.  I use it for the deep bedding in my 
brooding coop in the barn because it binds nitrogen so well and is slower to 
break down than straw.  I also use it in the compost piles I build when I 
compost the ofal from my slaughtering operation for the same reasons.  But 
manured wood chip compost only makes up about 5% of the total compost I 
produce in a year.  That is one in 20 compost piles.

Art Biggert
Ocean Sky Farm
Bainbridge Island, WA

From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Sun Jan 30 22:45:39 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Deer and Pastured Poultry
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:45:20 -0800
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A couple of years ago, on another farm, hubby and I did pastured poultry
just for ourselves.

We positioned the chicken tractor next to the garden and advanced around the
outside perimeter daily.

The deer assessed the long low cage - all those large white chickens moving
about or at the very least murmuring to one another and certainly giving off
a scent - and gave the cages AND the garden a very wide birth.

I think I may try that again this year.  I'll put a poultry station at each
of the four sides, advance them daily, fatten up the chickens, and confuse
the deer.

True story.  Honest.

Rose


From lh@pressroom.com Sun Jan 30 23:17:38 2000
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Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:17:17 -0500
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Leigh Hauter <lh@pressroom.com>
Subject: wood chips


Before the 3 feet of snow we've got over the last week, the power company
was clearing the right of way and had lots of wood chips (mostly brush and
hard wood) with no where cheap to put them,  Not wanting to turn up
something which seemed to have value I told them to go ahead and dump the
chips on some rocky land near our drive.  They've dumped about 10 truck
loads and I'll probably get another 10 before they're finished in this area.

I've found the saw dust and bark where I cut our fire wood makes part of a
great soil (after about 3 years) does anyone have any suggestions on how to
use this free material (back here no one -not even the electric coop sprays
anything on the forest and brush so the chips are going to be chemical
free).  Currently, the chips aren't in the way, so I don't mind letting
them sit, but....

From lh@pressroom.com Sun Jan 30 23:24:56 2000
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References:
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 nc.edu>
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:24:39 -0500
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Leigh Hauter <lh@pressroom.com>
Subject: Re: Seeder


I've used a jab planter.. great for small jobs. Now, about the only thing I
use it for is to plant squash through plastic mulch.

Never been real happy  with the Earthway.  Great concept, but our soil is
just too rocky.

From kampy@netins.net Sun Jan 30 23:36:07 2000
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Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:31:27 -0600
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marie Kamphefner <kampy@netins.net>
Subject: Re: wood chips
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 (snip)
does anyone have any suggestions on how to
use this free material (back here no one -not even the electric coop sprays
anything on the forest and brush so the chips are going to be chemical
free).  Currently, the chips aren't in the way, so I don't mind letting
them sit, but....

Ohhhhhh! I've been begging the power co. to give me wood chips.  I would
spread them on pathways and lanes around the farm to cut down on mud and
put them in front of the emu sheds for the same reason.  Then I would mulch
the flower beds in front of the house if I had any left over, and then the
sides and the back.  And on nights in spring if frost is threatening I
would light piles of them around the garden and in the orchard - smudge
piles?  And I would put them under fences so the grass wouldn't grow up and
short out the wires and around trees to make mowing simpler.  I bet they
smell good.

Marie Kamphefner
Strawberry Lane Farm



From creech5@mail.tds.net Sun Jan 30 23:40:10 2000
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Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:42:18 -0500
From: Michael Creech <creech5@mail.tds.net>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Now what a minute. Planting by the moon is not voodoo. ;) Now as for
mandalas...I'm with Holly! 

Penny in SC 
> 
> Lots of books linking gardening with nature spirits in a mystical
> view of working with Nature. Farmer's Almanac; planting by the signs of
> the moon;

From creech5@mail.tds.net Sun Jan 30 23:52:59 2000
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Pepper Spray and deer deterrence
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Hi,

   I can't verify as my GP is only 4 months old but from other sources I
have gathered that if not fenced in they will still stay at home and
guard as long as there is SOMETHING to guard.  I know of a lady whose GP
stayed at home and guarded perfectly with no fencing until she got rid
of her livestock and then he roamed until he found livestock at the
neighboring farm to guard. THe neighbor didn't appreciate the help (fool
woman). And not to be picky but you referred to "herding" and I have to 
make the distiction that they don't herd but do guard. Until a few years
ago I would have used the two words interchangeably but then I became
the proud owner of a Sheltie and found out what herding dogs do!!!!

Penny
Nathan Farms
Douglas Hendrickson wrote:

> I have heared that the GP is very effective IF your property is well
> defined by something like a hedge or fence. Otherwise they will end up
> herding the entire neighborhood. Can you verify this?
> 
>

From lh@pressroom.com Mon Jan 31 00:21:58 2000
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 .edu>
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 00:21:36 -0500
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Leigh Hauter <lh@pressroom.com>
Subject: livestock and vegetable guard dogs


Besides our chickenn-eating dog we have had Komondors for 15 years. Great
livestock guard dog.  Our last one, though, got bit on the nose by a 3 foot
copperhead this summer and died.

Komondors don't roam.  They stay put,  Only bark if there is something
there, don't eat much, and wouldn't dream of hurting an animal that belongs
on the farm (well, it didn't much like the rooster eating out of its bowl).
While we had a Komondor around we never lost an animal to a predador (only
to the chicken-eating dog that we were foolish enough to take as a 'gift').

As far as a livestock guard dog Komondors are fantastic.

The downside -  that coat.  They never shed and while Komondors look really
cute at dog shows with those long dreadlocks, a working Komondor is one big
dirty mat. And they don't much like to get their fur cut either.

They are also not a dog for someone who is looking for a child substitute.
Komondors are large, bull headed dogs that need to constantly be reminded
that they aren't the alpha dog.

so with that in mind I'm looking for a Komondor without the massive coat.
I got so I hated the spring haircut as much as the dog did.

 The books say the gp's will go far afield and they do a lot of extra
barking. I  like a dog that barks only for cause.

What other livestock guard dogs have all of those wonderful characteristics
of the Komondor, but without the coat.  It would also be nice to not have
to be in the business of having to remind a 150 pound animal every couple
months that it isn't the boss.

(Oh, and Komondors aren't great at keeping deer away.  If the deer stay
away from the house, the outbuildings and the livestock, the Komondor
doesn't see anything wrong with them eating a little Pac Choi)..  It would
be nice to have a dog that wants to protect the life of a broccoli too.

From SCook21809@aol.com Mon Jan 31 00:34:14 2000
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From: SCook21809@aol.com
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 00:34:34 EST
Subject: Re: Pepper Spray and deer deterrence
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<< Another method I've seen suggested (but never tried, my dogs keep the deer 
away or at least on the move) is to lay field fence or chicken wire flat, 
just slightly suspended above the ground >>

Holly,
    I make 12 inch diameter tubes with field fencing and lay them down around 
my strawberries. Two tubes wide.  It drives the deer nuts and they stop 
trying to get to them by the time my tomatoes are ready for support.  So I 
tip the tubes up on end to support the tomato crops.  Poor deer, they get no 
respect from me.

Art Biggert
Ocean Sky Farm
Bainbridge Island, WA 

From creech5@mail.tds.net Mon Jan 31 00:35:20 2000
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Leigh Hauter wrote:


> so with that in mind I'm looking for a Komondor without the massive coat.
> I got so I hated the spring haircut as much as the dog did.

I may not have the spelling right but a Marremma (nope that isn't right,
someone correct me) is suppose to also be an excellent guard dog. I went
several times to the farm where I bought our GP and his parents only
barked when they felt the goats were threatened by our approach. They
didn't have to worry--no way I'd bother a goat guarded by a deep
barking/ growling 125 lb. anxious looking dog. THat DEEP bark/growl
sounds so much more intimidating! 

Penny

From mjb@premier1.net Mon Jan 31 01:16:03 2000
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References: <LYR98963-34486-2000.01.30-06.15.54--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98946-34603-2000.01.30-18.12.17--mjb#premier1.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Seeder
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:23:03 -0800
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----- Original Message -----
From: Elizabeth Pike <pike@always-online.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 3:13 PM
Subject: Seeder


> >
> I also found the Earthway not suitable for sunflower seeds.  I have
ordered
> the Easy-Plant Jap-Type planter from Johnny's & hope it will save my back
> this year.  Has anyone else used this, or something similar?
>
I have for several years now, although I didn't get it from Johnny's.  It
works great!
The trick is to use it in fairly dry soil.  Here in the northwest if the
soil is wet it can clog things up very quickly. Get a small bucket for your
seeds and tie it around your waist, because it's a several step process and
having seeds easily accessible makes things go faster. I also bought the
four row seeder that showed up in Johnny's last year because I was unhappy
with the Earthway I had used.  This is wonderful!  A good seedbed is
necessary but it makes multiple plantings go very quickly.
Michaele
Growing Things
Carnation WA


From jans@rnet.com Mon Jan 31 02:20:13 2000
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Subject: Cut Flowers
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 01:20:58 -0600
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Hello All,,
 I have been researching cut flowers on internet.
Here are a few links that name the flowers and pertinent info;
http://www.umass.edu/umext/programs/agro/floriculture/floral_facts/anncut.ht
m

http://store.yahoo.com/cooksgarden/flower-seeds-cut-flowers.html

This one will take a year to peruse!!! Get Ready!

http://metalab.unc.edu/london/

www.sweetprairiesoap.com
Finely Handcrafted Herbal Soaps, Sundries & Soap Molds


From grandad@grandadsfarm.com Mon Jan 31 02:28:23 2000
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> Its the _edges_ (crenelated, natural/random) that make the mandala-shaped
> raised bed work. It requires more planning anf labor initially but offers
> (potentially) a bigger payback than rectangular, square or round beds, and
> certainly rows or row-beds).

	I guess we have to get a little simpler here or I am having a
senior moment.  What is a mandala shape?
-- 
From mailto:grandad@grandadsfarm.com and 
the Home of Grandad's Farm Magazine 
in the beautiful suburbs of Columbia, Missouri
http://www.grandadsfarm.com/

From fullcircle@jps.net Mon Jan 31 04:09:04 2000
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From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: freezing


Liz,

> Do any of you freeze your excess whatever  & sell it later??  Would this
>be regulated by health  departments?? 

Regulated big time by the health departments here.  You might be able to do
it IF the was a commercial kitchen to prepare the berries -- wash 'em, cap
'em, bag 'em,  and then froze them.  I'm not even sure that would fly here.


Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From fullcircle@jps.net Mon Jan 31 04:09:14 2000
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References: 
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 c.edu>
 <LYR98963-34507-2000.01.30-08.53.01--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.u
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Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:51:06 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Production methods: tillage, beds, rows, etc.


Hi all,

I, too, thought the Earthway seeded too densly especially carrots an
smaller seeds.  I took clear package tape and blocked every other or every
third seed hole.  Good results, just remove the tape immediately after.
Earthway seems to be particularly fussy about how much seed is in the
hopper.  I have more trouble when it's overfilled than when it's
underfilled.

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From fullcircle@jps.net Mon Jan 31 04:09:29 2000
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Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:51:06 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Production methods: tillage, beds, rows, etc.


Lawrence et al,

When we first sarted out, we used a 10 hp BCS.  The plow attachment helped
us create beds.  As we got more than an acre under cultivation, and wanted
to use cover crops to improve the soil, we graduated to a tractor and
Spader.

Now, we have a 27mhp tractor with 23hp at pto and use a Falc Panda spader
to create raised beds.  We run the wheels in the same track from year to
year so we preserve the tilth in the beds.  The spader turns covercrop and
incorporates soil amendments and compost.  Our beds are 3 ft wide (39" at
the base) and 75 feet long.   Everything else is done by hand.

We found this was human scale for our farm.  3 foot beds allow you to reach
well into the center when harvesting or transplanting, and half a 75 foot
bed is about all the longer any worker will walk without feeling the need
to cut across the bed.

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From fullcircle@jps.net Mon Jan 31 04:09:36 2000
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 >
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Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:51:06 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Pepper Spray and deer deterrence


Hi all,

Around here we call them rats with hooves.  The problem is the flatlanders
who move in and start feeding "Bambi."
>
>I understand that a double, six foot fence will work.

We (Extension) usually recommend either an 8 foot fence or two 4 foot
fences 4 feet apart.

>Though the deer could jump both if they thought about it, they can't
>think about it, because their brains are pretty small.

Actually, it has to do more with physiology than brain power.  Deer can
jump high by gathering themselves or the can jump long and low by
stretching out, but they can't jump long and high.  If you're 4 feet tall
at the withers, two 4 foot fences looks long and tall.

>Alternatively, you can do what we do:  let the local rednecks fire
>away.  Good eatin', too.

I'd love too, but I'd get arrested.  It's illegal to hunt out of season
here.  If F&G gives you a depredation permit, you have to report the kill,
field dress it, and call the local charity!  I figure if it got fat eating
my crop, I should be able to eat it.  I'm thinking pit trap...

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From kmarsh@iol.ie Mon Jan 31 05:29:48 2000
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:26:16 +0000
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: kathryn marsh <kmarsh@iol.ie>
Subject: Re: wood chips


>Before the 3 feet of snow we've got over the last week, the power company
>was clearing the right of way and had lots of wood chips (mostly brush and
>hard wood) with no where cheap to put them,  Not wanting to turn up
>something which seemed to have value I told them to go ahead and dump the
>chips on some rocky land near our drive.  They've dumped about 10 truck
>loads and I'll probably get another 10 before they're finished in this area.
>
How long can you let them sit - I'd be tempted to just leave them there
until I could plant into them - lovely composted topsoil, great drainage
from the rocks underneath

kathryn



From pike@always-online.com Mon Jan 31 06:36:35 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: border collie pups as herd protectors
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 06:38:10 -0500
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Shelley: "You may already know that the herding instinct is a human =
modification of the prey drive. Basically what happens is in herding is =
that we train the herd-dog to "fetch" the flock, or "prey" to ourselves, =
the alpha "dog". In dog culture the alpha dog does the killing and =
assigns roles to the lesser dogs. We stop it at the point where we pen =
the flock. "

Yes, I knew this, that's why I suspected the advice we received.  I know =
puppies play rough enough to kill chicks, even unintentionally.  That's =
why I wanted to check it out further for myself before blythely putting =
one in with chicks.  We've had a couple of other dogs that just "loved" =
chicks to death-literally.  My gut instinct is that those salivation =
glands still work when easy-to-catch livestock is around & alpha dog =
isn't!  (He goes in the woods beside our house & herds home the one =
remaining chicken we have-I find him with his big ole paws draped over =
her back, trying to get her to play.  And she has squatted, thinking =
he's a big ole, ugly looking rooster-she doesn't know any better!)  He's =
not been a barker, which disappoints me, since I must train a dog to do =
all sorts of tricks to entertain company-animals must earn their keep, =
right?!  Teaching him to speak has been impossible until I discovered he =
prefers "singing" with the Dixie Chicks!  We'll go riding in my truck & =
he sings away.

When did you start your dog's formal training?  I've been advised, by =
border collie/herding dog professional, not to start until he's  a year =
old, and in the meantime-do not ever let him mouth the "herd" (us or =
whatever animals we may have around.)

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, NC



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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3401" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">Shelley: "You may already know =
that the=20
herding instinct is a human modification of the prey drive. Basically =
what=20
happens is in herding is that we train the herd-dog to "fetch" the =
flock, or=20
"prey" to ourselves, the alpha "dog". In dog culture the alpha dog does =
the=20
killing and assigns roles to the lesser dogs. We stop it at the point =
where we=20
pen the flock. "</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">Yes, I knew this, that's why I =
suspected the=20
advice we received.&nbsp; I know puppies play rough enough to kill =
chicks, even=20
unintentionally.&nbsp; That's why I wanted to check it out further for =
myself=20
before blythely putting one in with chicks.&nbsp; We've had a couple of =
other=20
dogs that just "loved" chicks to death-literally.&nbsp; My gut instinct =
is that=20
those salivation glands still work when easy-to-catch livestock is =
around &amp;=20
alpha dog isn't!&nbsp; (He goes&nbsp;in the woods beside our house &amp; =
herds=20
home the one remaining chicken we have-I find him with his big ole paws =
draped=20
over her back, trying to get her to play.&nbsp; And she has squatted, =
thinking=20
he's a big ole, ugly looking rooster-she doesn't know any better!)&nbsp; =
He's=20
not been a barker, which disappoints me, since I must train a dog to do =
all=20
sorts of tricks to entertain company-animals must earn their keep, =
right?!&nbsp;=20
Teaching him to speak has been impossible until I discovered he prefers=20
"singing" with the Dixie Chicks!&nbsp; We'll go riding in my truck &amp; =
he=20
sings away.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">When did you start your dog's =
formal=20
training?&nbsp; I've been advised, by border collie/herding dog =
professional,=20
not to start until he's&nbsp; a year old, and in the meantime-do not =
ever let=20
him mouth the "herd" (us or whatever animals we may have =
around.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">Liz<BR>Morningstar =
Gardens<BR>Pollocksville,=20
NC<BR><BR></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_012E_01BF6BB5.BDDD1AE0--


From guldann@ix.netcom.com Mon Jan 31 07:23:47 2000
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From: "Hook Family" <guldann@ix.netcom.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98960-34710-2000.01.31-04.09.03--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: freezing and value added
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:27:56 -0800
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I know of a farm stand fellow who at the time ran a u pick raspberry farm
all excess was frozen he then used a church's commercial kitchen to make
pies.  I have read this in books use someone else's commercial kitchen
church's ususally being mentioned.  Is this common.  I am not sure if my
church's kitchen would "pass" it appears a bit too much like a reg. kitchen.
Also I live in a different town than my church so there must be some red
tape there :).  Beth

> > Do any of you freeze your excess whatever  & sell it later??  Would this
> >be regulated by health  departments??
>
> Regulated big time by the health departments here.  You might be able to
do
> it IF the was a commercial kitchen to prepare the berries -- wash 'em, cap



From pike@always-online.com Mon Jan 31 07:42:50 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: prices
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:44:22 -0500
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Here's a link for wholesale vegetable, fruit & herb prices.  It's a =
subscription site, but you can sign up for a one week free trial.=20

http://www.todaymarket.com/index.htm

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, NC

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3401" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">Here's a link for wholesale =
vegetable, fruit=20
&amp; herb prices.&nbsp; It's a subscription site, but you can sign up =
for=20
a&nbsp;one week free trial.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG"><A=20
href=3D"http://www.todaymarket.com/index.htm">http://www.todaymarket.com/=
index.htm</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Saturday Sans ICG">Liz<BR>Morningstar =
Gardens<BR>Pollocksville,=20
NC</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00AF_01BF6BBE.FCF5F900--


From sojournr@missouri.org Mon Jan 31 08:01:39 2000
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:05:17 -0600
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: border collie pups as herd protectors
References: <LYR99136-34723-2000.01.31-06.36.35--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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> Elizabeth Pike wrote:
> 
> When did you start your dog's formal training?  I've been advised, by
> border collie/herding dog professional, not to start until he's  a
> year old, and in the meantime-do not ever let him mouth the "herd" (us
> or whatever animals we may have around.)

I've been told to start training them to commands like "sit" as soon as
possible, keeping in mind the fact that a puppy has a very VERY short
attention span, but not to start actually training them to herd until
around a year old (I think it was).  In the meantime your supposed to
acclimate them to the livestock (e.g., they should not suddenly be
confronted with, say, sheep on the first day you start your herding
training).  Not leave them alone with the animals, but make sure they've
been exposed to their presence, otherwise they're going to be doubly
distracted and afraid to boot when you start their herding training.

But a border collie is a herd dog and not a guardian.  I really think
asking a herd dog to do double duty as a livestock guardian is asking
for trouble.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From gutierrez-lagatta@home.com Mon Jan 31 08:03:36 2000
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:08:25 -0500
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta <gutierrez-lagatta@home.com>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: U-Pick strawberries
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It's strawberry season here in Florida.  Yesterday I visited a U-Pick
operation that had some nice procedures which streamlined people
management and checkout.  They basically sold their strawberries at
$7.50 for a level one gallon plastic pail which they provided.  These
are similar to those used for cheap ice-cream, only with handles (the
grower says he gets them from a source in Ohio).  This instantly
eliminates the confusion on the incoming end of weighing a variety of
sizes of containers provided by the pickers.

At check-out time you simply multiply the number of buckets x $7.50 and
the customer is on his way.  They let you keep the bucket so there are
no delays for weighing or bagging.  I suspect these procedures would
work for tomatoes or other fruits also.  If you want to recycle the
picking containers you could ask the customer to bag his stuff and stack
the buckets for you after check-out.  Quart sized containers were also
available for $2.50.

These were the nicest fields I have ever picked strawberries in.  They
were raised plastic mulched beds.  The strawberries, huge Camerosas,
were clean and the plants were weed free.  And as a bonus, there were no
fire-ants.  This is definitely a place I will go back to again and
again.

Adriana Gutierrez
Green Cuisine
Sarasota, Florida

From rbfarr@erols.com Mon Jan 31 08:06:16 2000
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From: Robert Farr <rbfarr@erols.com>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Production methods: tillage, beds, rows, etc.
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Allan:

On crop circles - go and see the one in Potomac Overlook Park, in
Arlington.

Barring that, call Martin Ogle, the park super. there.  He'll give you a
good explanation of the circular garden.

R.



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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Horse manure/sawdust
References: <LYR98963-34584-2000.01.30-16.49.16--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99215-34617-2000.01.30-19.52.21--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Elizabeth:

Just made sure to compost your sawdust for a season, so it doesn't tie
up the nitrogen in your soil while decomposing.

And for the manure - rather than dumping it in one place, which can
cause toxicity, why not spread it over your fields?

Robert.



From rbfarr@erols.com Mon Jan 31 08:17:00 2000
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: smorgasbord
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Elizabeth wrote:

<don't even get me started on hunting with dogs-lazy man's way to do it>

In Virginia, it is illegal to use dogs to hunt deer.  Perhaps it is also
out your way?  If so, call the game warden.

Robert.



From pike@always-online.com Mon Jan 31 08:33:22 2000
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Subject: Re: dogs
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----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Farr <rbfarr@erols.com>

> In Virginia, it is illegal to use dogs to hunt deer.  Perhaps it is also
> out your way?  If so, call the game warden.> Robert.

Unfortunately, not illegal.  Most hunters have a "set" of 5-7 dogs.  They're
starved for 30 days prior to hunting, then let loose.  We've fed, returned,
taken to dog pound &/or shot a few straglers who get left behind.  Game
wardens protect the hunting preserves, & dogs are legal, so they're mum on
the subject, though they detest it.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, NC


From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Mon Jan 31 08:43:34 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Tying up soil nitrogen (was Re: Horse manure/sawdust)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:43:08 -0800
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Rob told Liz: "Just made sure to compost your sawdust for a season, so it
doesn't tie up the nitrogen in your soil while decomposing"

Thanks for the reminder, Rob.

I just read the same thing in Lynn Byczynski's book "The Flower Farmer".
She mentioned it about grass clippings, though.

Basically, wait until they've dried out or have been composted.  Putting
them around the plants while the clippings are still green accomplishes the
same nitrogen tie-up that Rob mentioned about sawdust.

Rose


From awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us Mon Jan 31 09:27:25 2000
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From: "Wiediger, Alison" <awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us>
To: 'market farming' <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: RE: smorgasbord
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:13:22 -0600
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Here in zone 6, we grow all winter.  We have a group of buyers that average
at least $10.00 a week each (and some much  more) for produce - mesclun,
leaf lettuce, oriental greens, baby spinach, Red and White Russian kale,
mustards, etc.  This is our 5th year growing all winter, and we do it in a
coldframe - no heat.  it definitely can be done. For particulars, see our
article in the January edition of "Growing for Market", which it THE
periodical for market growers (in our most humble opinions!).

Alison and Paul Wiediger
Au Naturel Farm
Smiths Grove, Ky

> ----------
> From: 	Elizabeth Pike[SMTP:pike@always-online.com]
> Reply To: 	market farming
> Sent: 	Sunday, January 30, 2000 6:54 PM
> To: 	market farming
> Subject: 	smorgasbord
> 
> - - - - -  - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> From Beth: " But with winter we will never be able to supply our CSA
> or farm stand year round with only products from our garden (disregarding
> any fabulous season extenders).  So our customers/members go back to the
> grocery store. "
>  
> Liz
> Morningstar Gardens
> Pollocksville, NC
> 

From fsfarm@mufn.org Mon Jan 31 09:47:47 2000
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From: "five springs farm" <fsfarm@mufn.org>
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References: <LYR99014-34544-2000.01.30-13.15.57--fsfarm#mufn.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: deer deterrence
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There are no sure things, it would seem. We find that deer will get used to
anything after a while. Try different things as often as needed (every week
or two). We use perfume on rags tied around the edge of the gardens, every
50' or so. Change the scent often.

Pee around the edges

One year when deer got too friendly we camped out in the area for a couple
of nights. Our dog got more used to the idea of patrolling the area after
that, too.

Hanging flashy things seem to help. We have used CDs (plenty come form AOL
in the mail). Pie tins. There is a material used in the screen printing of t
shirts that we got from a t shirt printer. It is shiny and real flimsy, and
moves in the slightest breeze. Tied to fence posts it lasted all summer.
Also kept birds away, which we did not like. No free lunch.

Jim and Jo
The Community Farm Newsletter
http://www.mufn.org/public/tcf



From gutierrez-lagatta@home.com Mon Jan 31 09:59:36 2000
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:04:28 -0500
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta <gutierrez-lagatta@home.com>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Farming Income Tax Preparation
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I'm just completing my first full year of market farming and am trying
to decide whether to do my income taxes myself or "farm them out" :>). 
How many of you do your own and how many use a tax professional?

I normally do our family income taxes myself using Turbo Tax with no
difficulties.  However if the farming rules are very complex or
convoluted then it may be advisable to use a professional, at least for
the first year to be sure the critical decisions are made correctly
up-front.  What's the consensus of the group?

Adriana Gutierrez
Green Cuisine
Sarasota, Florida

From awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us Mon Jan 31 10:03:17 2000
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From: "Wiediger, Alison" <awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us>
To: 'market farming' <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: RE: Farming Income Tax Preparation
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:49:05 -0600
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I have always done ours.  If you understand depreciation, capital expense,
and/or are willing to do a little heavy reading, it isn't too bad.  If math
give you a headache, you won't like it.  To cut down on the charge if you
have a preparer do them, be sure you have all your records really well
organized - that takes the most time!

Alison Wiediger
Au Naturel Farm


> ----------
> From: 	Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis
> LaGatta[SMTP:gutierrez-lagatta@home.com]
> Reply To: 	market farming
> Sent: 	Monday, January 31, 2000 9:04 AM
> To: 	market farming
> Subject: 	Farming Income Tax Preparation
> 
> I'm just completing my first full year of market farming and am trying
> to decide whether to do my income taxes myself or "farm them out" :>). 
> How many of you do your own and how many use a tax professional?
> 
> I normally do our family income taxes myself using Turbo Tax with no
> difficulties.  However if the farming rules are very complex or
> convoluted then it may be advisable to use a professional, at least for
> the first year to be sure the critical decisions are made correctly
> up-front.  What's the consensus of the group?
> 
> Adriana Gutierrez
> Green Cuisine
> Sarasota, Florida
> 
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as:
> awiediger@hart.k12.ky.us
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
> 

From pike@always-online.com Mon Jan 31 10:14:40 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-34744-2000.01.31-09.27.24--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: smorgasbord
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>For particulars, see our
> article in the January edition of "Growing for Market", which it THE
> periodical for market growers (in our most humble opinions!).
>
> Alison and Paul Wiediger

I still haven't received my January issue...Lynn?!  I've been dying to read
Art's article, too.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, NC


> Here in zone 6, we grow all winter.  We have a group of buyers that
average
> at least $10.00 a week each (and some much  more) for produce - mesclun,
> leaf lettuce, oriental greens, baby spinach, Red and White Russian kale,
> mustards, etc.  This is our 5th year growing all winter, and we do it in a
> coldframe - no heat.  it definitely can be done. For particulars, see our
> article in the January edition of "Growing for Market", which it THE
> periodical for market growers (in our most humble opinions!).
>
> Alison and Paul Wiediger
> Au Naturel Farm
> Smiths Grove, Ky
>
> > ----------
> > From: Elizabeth Pike[SMTP:pike@always-online.com]
> > Reply To: market farming
> > Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 6:54 PM
> > To: market farming
> > Subject: smorgasbord
> >
> > - - - - -  - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> > From Beth: " But with winter we will never be able to supply our CSA
> > or farm stand year round with only products from our garden
(disregarding
> > any fabulous season extenders).  So our customers/members go back to the
> > grocery store. "
> >
> > Liz
> > Morningstar Gardens
> > Pollocksville, NC
> >
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: pike@always-online.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>
>


From fsfarm@mufn.org Mon Jan 31 10:19:17 2000
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From: "five springs farm" <fsfarm@mufn.org>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR99215-34615-2000.01.30-19.41.59--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99014-34731-2000.01.31-08.06.16--fsfarm#mufn.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Production methods: tillage, beds, rows, etc.
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:02:44 -0500
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If anyone mentioned a braodfork in this thread we missed it. It is our
favorite tool for working in raised beds. it has several long (12" or so,
depending on who makes it) tines on a sturdy set of handles. We learned
about it in an Eliot Coleman book and use it plenty for cultivating and
"fluffing" up the beds. It can substitute for double digging, at least to
some extent.

The EZ Digger (it goes by several other names, a Korean tool that looks a
like a little handheld plow) is a favorite for close weeding.

We have about 1/2 acre of raised beds, and think we get more production out
of a smaller space this way. They were formed up originally with a Troybuilt
Horse tiller with a Hiller attachment. By running the hiller at about 31/2
foot intervals you can make the trails, then a garden rake can be used to
form up the beds.

Jim and Jo
The Community Farm Newsletter
http://www.mufn.org/public/tcf




From pike@always-online.com Mon Jan 31 10:30:34 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR99039-34678-2000.01.31-00.02.32--gutierrez-lagatta#home.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34748-2000.01.31-09.59.35--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Farming Income Tax Preparation
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We use an accountant.  (Farming isn't only income.)

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, NC


From rbfarr@erols.com Mon Jan 31 10:31:52 2000
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From: Robert Farr <rbfarr@erols.com>
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References: <LYR99215-34615-2000.01.30-19.41.59--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99014-34731-2000.01.31-08.06.16--fsfarm#mufn.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99215-34753-2000.01.31-10.19.16--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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I've been looking for a broad fork for some time.

Where can I find one - an affordable one (no Smith and Hawken for me),
that is!

Robert.



From gcr@rhealiving.com Mon Jan 31 10:34:25 2000
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From: "Donna Fezler" <gcr@rhealiving.com>
To: "'market farming'" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: RE: Farming Income Tax Preparation
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:37:01 -0600
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We have part of the farm as a C corp. and part as a DBA.  We do both on
Turbo Tax but run it by the accountant after we are finished and early in
the season (like first week of Feb) so he can check it for strategy. Turbo
Tax assures math accuracy.

The IRS, through the university extension services,  offers farm tax school
for lawyers, bankers, tax preparers or people interested.  That is usually
offered in NOV-DEC in hundreds of locations and runs about $75.  Worth every
penny and they give out a HUGE easy to read binder.  Two days of pretty
boring stuff and a good working knowledge of the tax code is essential, but
they try to make it interesting.

FYI, farming is the last great tax loophole.   Remember, the IRS wants you
to take every deduction you are legally entitled to.  However, they aren't
going to tell you what they are.

In the past, we have elected not to take some deductions so we wouldn't
trigger the "second review" limit.  They won't tell you what it is, but this
year IMHO I believe it will be pretty lenient because so many farms are
suffering huge losses.  Auditing farmers is not a good investment of time
and money for the IRS in a lousy farming year; there isn't much money to
get.   They have to show a profit on audits.

Donna Fezler
GCR
Jacksonville, IL

http://www.rhealiving.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta
[mailto:gutierrez-lagatta@home.com]
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 9:04 AM
To: market farming
Subject: Farming Income Tax Preparation


I'm just completing my first full year of market farming and am trying
to decide whether to do my income taxes myself or "farm them out" :>).
How many of you do your own and how many use a tax professional?

I normally do our family income taxes myself using Turbo Tax with no
difficulties.  However if the farming rules are very complex or
convoluted then it may be advisable to use a professional, at least for
the first year to be sure the critical decisions are made correctly
up-front.  What's the consensus of the group?

Adriana Gutierrez
Green Cuisine
Sarasota, Florida

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From gcr@rhealiving.com Mon Jan 31 10:34:41 2000
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From: "Donna Fezler" <gcr@rhealiving.com>
To: "'market farming'" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: RE: Farming Income Tax Preparation
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:22:18 -0600
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Adriana,

We use turbo tax for our farm and part of it is incorporated for liability
reasons so we have two companies.  No problem.  We do them and have the
accountant look them over for accuracy to make sure we didn't miss
something.

Donna Fezler
GCR
Jacksonville, IL

http://www.rhealiving.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Wiediger, Alison [mailto:awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us]
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 8:49 AM
To: market farming
Subject: RE: Farming Income Tax Preparation


I have always done ours.  If you understand depreciation, capital expense,
and/or are willing to do a little heavy reading, it isn't too bad.  If math
give you a headache, you won't like it.  To cut down on the charge if you
have a preparer do them, be sure you have all your records really well
organized - that takes the most time!

Alison Wiediger
Au Naturel Farm


> ----------
> From: 	Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis
> LaGatta[SMTP:gutierrez-lagatta@home.com]
> Reply To: 	market farming
> Sent: 	Monday, January 31, 2000 9:04 AM
> To: 	market farming
> Subject: 	Farming Income Tax Preparation
>
> I'm just completing my first full year of market farming and am trying
> to decide whether to do my income taxes myself or "farm them out" :>).
> How many of you do your own and how many use a tax professional?
>
> I normally do our family income taxes myself using Turbo Tax with no
> difficulties.  However if the farming rules are very complex or
> convoluted then it may be advisable to use a professional, at least for
> the first year to be sure the critical decisions are made correctly
> up-front.  What's the consensus of the group?
>
> Adriana Gutierrez
> Green Cuisine
> Sarasota, Florida
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as:
> awiediger@hart.k12.ky.us
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
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From gutierrez-lagatta@home.com Mon Jan 31 10:43:49 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:43:47
Subject: Re: prices
To: market-farming
From: "Adriana Gutierrez" <gutierrez-lagatta@home.com>


Liz, Unless I'm mistaken, pretty much the same information is available for 
free at http://www.ifas.ufl.edu/~MARKETING/fvprod/tmppmenu.html

I would like to double-check with this group that I am interpreting this 
data correctly.  I assume that "Terminal Market Price" is the price paid at 
at the receiving end by the first middle-man in the food chain after the 
farmer-broker-shipper at the point of origin.  To use these prices to 
guesstimate the cost in the market place I assume there is a mark-up of 
maybe 30% on sales to produce wholesalers and another 30-40% on sales to 
restaurants and/or retail customers.  For example, if the terminal market 
price of salad mix is $7/case, the wholesaler pays about $9.10 and the 
restaurant pays between $11.83-$12.74.  Do you concur?

From marc@aculink.net Mon Jan 31 10:47:07 2000
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:41:13 -0700
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Subject: Re: Periodicals
References: <LYR98963-34744-2000.01.31-09.27.24--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99061-34752-2000.01.31-10.14.39--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Can you give me contact info for "Growing for Market"
please?

Anyone else have other recommended periodicals?

Marcy Nameth
SE Colorado 

Elizabeth Pike wrote:
> 
> >For particulars, see our
> > article in the January edition of "Growing for Market", which it THE
> > periodical for market growers (in our most humble opinions!).
> >

From marc@aculink.net Mon Jan 31 10:49:57 2000
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Subject: Re: deer deterrence
References: <LYR99014-34544-2000.01.30-13.15.57--fsfarm#mufn.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99061-34746-2000.01.31-09.47.47--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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I haven't tried it and hopefully won't need to, so can't
attest as to it's effectiveness, but heard on a radio garden
show to use the motion detector from a security light
fixture and hook it up to a big impulse sprinkler.  Could be
that, like many other things, they get used to it after a
while.

Marcy Nameth
SE Colorado

From pike@always-online.com Mon Jan 31 10:53:55 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
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References: <LYR98963-34765-2000.01.31-10.43.49--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Adrianna: Liz, Unless I'm mistaken, pretty much the same information is
available for
> free at http://www.ifas.ufl.edu/~MARKETING/fvprod/tmppmenu.html
>
> I would like to double-check with this group that I am interpreting this
> data correctly.

Once I got into the site, I realized the same.  I should have checked it out
before posting.  I was curious to see if the prices differed from the usda
site.  And I concur, that is appears the terminal price is the
point-of-origin,  first middle man price.  I'm glad I do direct marketing!

Liz


From sojournr@missouri.org Mon Jan 31 11:02:54 2000
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Subject: Re: Horse manure/sawdust
References: <LYR98963-34584-2000.01.30-16.49.16--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99215-34617-2000.01.30-19.52.21--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99136-34733-2000.01.31-08.12.02--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Robert Farr wrote:
> 
> Elizabeth:
> 
> Just made sure to compost your sawdust for a season, so it doesn't tie
> up the nitrogen in your soil while decomposing.
> 
> And for the manure - rather than dumping it in one place, which can
> cause toxicity, why not spread it over your fields?

The belief that sawdust will "tie up the nitrogen" in your soil is a
myth based on studies done with sawdust that had been "worked in" to the
soil - e.g., was decomposing (or rather not) in anaerobic conditions.

Spreading sawdust on TOP of your soil will not cause a nitrogen
deficiency.  Aerobic decomposition, taking place in the presence of
oxygen (which is what goes on when you surface spread) is a whole
'nother animal than anaerobic.

It makes excellent compost, is an excellent mulch.  I have a friend who
uses it exclusively to "hill up" his potatoes.  I can get all the free
sawdust I want out here in the Ozarks from local sawmills, so I plan on
using it for mulch in my gardens and for deep bedding in the chicken
house (assuming I ever finish MY house so I can start on one for the
chickens, that is).

The fact that its come from the stables means that in addition to the
horse manure, the horses, our friends, have also made sure of the
addition of lots and lots of nitrogen in the form of urea, so what
you've got here is actually a pretty well balanced mix of carbon and
nitrogen (chicken house bedding is even better in this regard).

There's no need to worry about a lack of nitrogen either in the material
itself or in the soil after you've applied it as mulch.  Unless the
stable left cleaning way too long, its unlikely there's enough horse
manure in the stuff to cause problems either, though I still wouldn't
put it anywhere you're planning to grow carrots.

It's straight applications of piles of horse manure that tend to cause
problems; a little horse manure mixed into a lot of sawdust should be
sufficiently buffered by the sawdust to be OK.  If you're unsure,
composting first wouldn't hurt, but if the stables clean often enough
you should be fine.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us Mon Jan 31 11:03:09 2000
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From: "Wiediger, Alison" <awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us>
To: 'Direct MArketing listserv' <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: seed-saving - cotton
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:49:02 -0600
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Does anyone know the isolation distance for preventing cross-pollination of
cotton ?  Looked at SESE's verbiage with their seed, and look at "Seed to
Seed" - the best book we have for seed saving - but it doesn't cover
non-food seed.  Thanks!!

Alison Wiediger
Au Naturel Farm
Smiths Grove, KY


From pike@always-online.com Mon Jan 31 11:06:17 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <B4BAED7C.10A5%llami@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Green manures in the growing season
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----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Lawton <llami@teleport.com>
To: Elizabeth Pike <pike@always-online.com>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: Green manures in the growing season


> I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to reply to my question.
I've
> been wanting to start using green manures, but haven't wanted to mess with
> the garden in the winter. I have grown favas overwinter, but not the last
> two years.
>
> You speak of doing this work yourself. I'm wondering if you are the main
> operator of your farm? I know that a lot of women do farm work, but many
of
> them work alongside their husbands, and so have that strong back to help
> them out. I am a woman doing this alone, except for some part-time help,
and
> I find that it helps to have a good imagination sometimes, since strength
> isn't always available. I've also learned a lot by holding a "how-to" book
> in one hand, while using a tool with the other!
>
> I'm really enjoying the market-farm list. It is good to hear other farmers
> talking. Bet it is pretty quiet in the summertime, tho!
>
> Lee


 Hey, Lee!  Yes, I'm the one & only farmer in the family, though dh is the
one who drives the tractor-to mow.  I'm forcing him to teach me.  So far,
I've managed to do everything I can by hand, my own hand, but I need to
expand to more acreage.  I'd like to do it without the tractor, been
considering draft horses, but we have the tractor & I just hate having it
sit there!  I'm getting a hand this summer though, the yankee Marine who
rents our mobile home.  He's fascinated with farming.  Now, if I can just
keep him off Civil War discussions.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, NC

PS  I thought I was the only with a book in one hand & tool in the other.  I
hide the book when cars go by! ; )




From sojournr@missouri.org Mon Jan 31 11:07:28 2000
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Tying up soil nitrogen (was Re: Horse manure/sawdust)
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Rose & Fred Lieberman wrote:
> 
> Rob told Liz: "Just made sure to compost your sawdust for a season, so it
> doesn't tie up the nitrogen in your soil while decomposing"
> 
> Thanks for the reminder, Rob.
> 
> I just read the same thing in Lynn Byczynski's book "The Flower Farmer".
> She mentioned it about grass clippings, though.
> 
> Basically, wait until they've dried out or have been composted.  Putting
> them around the plants while the clippings are still green accomplishes the
> same nitrogen tie-up that Rob mentioned about sawdust.

This just isn't true, and I'm sorry to see such a myth being perpetuated
in a book like "The Flower Farmer", which has been on my list of books
to buy.

What DOES happen with fresh grass clippings is that they tend to mat and
water runs off the mulch like water off the back of a duck.  So its not
a good idea to use fresh grass clippings as mulch unless you first mix
it with something else to keep these water-shedding clumps from
forming.  Say . . . SAWDUST!  <VBG>  If you're using straight sawdust
between your rows or amongst the plants, mixing in lots of fresh grass
clippings will help to balance the nitrogen/carbon ratio and will speed
decomposition.  Of the sawdust, we all know grass clippings practically
melt with rot in a composting situation.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From lh@pressroom.com Mon Jan 31 11:07:45 2000
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 >
References:
 <LYR99014-34544-2000.01.30-13.15.57--fsfarm#mufn.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
 <LYR99061-34746-2000.01.31-09.47.47--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu
 >
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:07:21 -0500
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Leigh Hauter <lh@pressroom.com>
Subject: Re: deer deterrence


>I haven't tried it and hopefully won't need to, so can't
>attest as to it's effectiveness, but heard on a radio garden
>show to use the motion detector from a security light
>fixture and hook it up to a big impulse sprinkler.  Could be
>that, like many other things, they get used to it after a
>while.

I tried that two years ago.  It worked for a while.  Almost 3 weeks.
hooved rats aren't all that dumb.

From pike@always-online.com Mon Jan 31 11:14:22 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-34744-2000.01.31-09.27.24--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99061-34752-2000.01.31-10.14.39--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34767-2000.01.31-10.47.07--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Growing For Market, Lynn Byczynski   $30/yr subscription
PO Box 3747 
Lawrence, Kansas 66046

email: growing4market@earthlink.net

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, NC


From rbfarr@erols.com Mon Jan 31 11:14:51 2000
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Horse manure/sawdust
References: <LYR98963-34584-2000.01.30-16.49.16--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99215-34617-2000.01.30-19.52.21--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99136-34733-2000.01.31-08.12.02--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99215-34774-2000.01.31-11.02.52--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Holly:

I'm not sure what you mean by: <spreading sawdust on TOP of your soil
will not cause a nitrogen deficiency.>  What wouldn't it?

Also - I've heard to keep manure away from carrots.  When I manure my
carrot crop, it certainly provides bad tasting, forked monsters.  Why is
that?

Robert.



From sbeerman@ucinet.com Mon Jan 31 11:21:01 2000
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:20:55
Subject: Free Site to check wholesale fruit, vegetable prices
To: market-farming
From: "sandie beerman" <sbeerman@ucinet.com>


      

       
       This is a USDA Market News page that has 
       Market News Reports - Fruit & Vegetable
       Fruit and Vegetable Market News Users Guide [PDF]
       Ornamental Crops Market Reports
       Specialty Reports
       Farmers Market and Auction Reports
       Archived Reports
       www.ams.usda.gov/fv/mncs/
      



       Fruit & Vegetable Market Reports

From grandad@grandadsfarm.com Mon Jan 31 11:23:03 2000
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>  I'd like to do it without the tractor, been
> considering draft horses,

	When I was a kid I remember an old guy that drove a team of
horses pulling a wagon load of vegetables through the
neighborhoods stopping to sell them as he went. Wouldn't that be
a crowd catcher?  But seriously, the problem with draft horses
is that the amount of acreage needed to keep the horses in shape
and trained far exceeds what most of us could maintain.  I would
love to have a nice team of halflingers to take care of some of
the draft needs here but since you need to work a team at a
minimum of twice weekly to keep them trained I would be spending
more time training the horses than gardening.
	I have talked to many Amish farmers about this and that is the
consensus.  Even on their farms of 40 to 80 acres they end up
working hitches of 6 and 8 horses, not because they need that
much draft power but because they need to work the horses to
keep them in training and condition.  They say that it is a
battle to keep a team in condition.  You have to work them to
keep them in shape so that you can work them.
	So I have decided to pursue draft goats.  I have these excess
buck kids that can be whethered and put to work pulling a garden
cart.
-- 
From mailto:grandad@grandadsfarm.com and 
the Home of Grandad's Farm Magazine 
in the beautiful suburbs of Columbia, Missouri
http://www.grandadsfarm.com/

From guldann@ix.netcom.com Mon Jan 31 11:27:40 2000
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Subject: horse power
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:31:45 -0800
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Hi Liz and list, I caution you to really think about getting draft
horses(although I seem to recall you already have horses) unless you really
like horses and have some "extra" time to devote to them.  And some other
jobs besides farm work ie hayrides.  We have a team.  There are three adults
involved in this farming endeavor and one who works quite a few hours with
the horses.  The horses are you might say our "draw" what makes us unique.
We are a CSA/farm that offers hayrides.  They have not yet done much farm
work probably will this year.  They had some manners to learn prior to last
summer so last summer was their first public use.  They are beautiful and
are wonderful "conversation" pieces but ya gotta love 'em.  Beth

> one who drives the tractor-to mow.  I'm forcing him to teach me.  So far,
> I've managed to do everything I can by hand, my own hand, but I need to
> expand to more acreage.  I'd like to do it without the tractor, been
> considering draft horses, but we have the tractor & I just hate having it
> sit there!  I'm getting a hand this summer though, the yankee Marine who
> rents our mobile home.  He's fascinated with farming.  Now, if I can just
> keep him off Civil War discussions.



From doodles@netins.net Mon Jan 31 11:44:05 2000
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Subject: FW: (Freezing?) New Rules at our Farmers' Market
From: "Ericka & Rich Dana" <doodles@netins.net>
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----------
From: "Ericka & Rich Dana" <doodles@netins.net>
To: organicgrowing@eGroups.com
Subject: Canning at Farmers' Markets
Date: Wed, Jan 12, 2000, 11:06 AM

I wrote this before on the OG list, am adding to it & sending it on re: the
berry question.

In Iowa City our Market inspector comes regularly to make sure all the rules
are being followed. He's a state inspector. Eggs must be at the right
temperature in a cooler, baked goods must be labeled properly (ingred. and
baker contact info.), and until this year, no canned goods or dehydrated
products were allowed.

As of this year (1999) we could sell dried herbs, etc., and
jams and jellies, but no canned tomatoes, sauces, salsas or meats/other
vegetables. We still can't sell custard (eggie) pies or baked goods. The
rules are very specific here. The announcement flyer re: the new rules we
got from our martket master was a little vague on some things, so I called
the state dept. to clarify - I esp. wanted to know if I could sell dried
(dehydrated) tomatoes, and the person I spoke to said she thought I could.

I only had them there for the final week, so when the inspector comes around
this year I'm going to corner him and find out for sure, and get more
details on other stuff. We're thinking about certifying our summer kitchen,
but it's so multi-purpose for me now that it might not be worth limiting
it's usefulness for a small product line.

I'd like to know about berries, too. I'd like to dry strawberries and I'm
starting to grow cranberries this year, and they're great dried.

Ericka

--The Mighty Oak was once a little nut that held its ground.


From whistle@halcyon.com Mon Jan 31 11:45:38 2000
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:36:17 -0800
Subject: Re: Farming Income Tax Preparation
From: "Shelley Pasco" <whistle@halcyon.com>
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I've been doing the farm taxers myself with MacinTax (that's TurboTax on a
PC.) I do all my bookkeeping with Quicken, so all the records are naturally
formatted to flow right into the tax program. I like it because it gives me
help in figuring out depreciation, since we keep adding greenhouses and
equipment every year, and it gives little hints along the way that I would
otherwise miss.
Of course, it would be tougher if I didn't have things fairly well-organized
in Quicken. But the way I see it, I've got to have all my records in
excellent order to give to a CPA so that they can run it through a computer
for $300+. If I've got everything ready, why not run it through my own
computer at $75 for the software.
Shelley Pasco
Whistling Train Farm
Kent, WA

----------
>From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta <gutierrez-lagatta@home.com>
>To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
>Subject: Farming Income Tax Preparation
>Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2000, 7:04 AM
>

> I'm just completing my first full year of market farming and am trying
> to decide whether to do my income taxes myself or "farm them out" :>).
> How many of you do your own and how many use a tax professional?
>
> I normally do our family income taxes myself using Turbo Tax with no
> difficulties.  However if the farming rules are very complex or
> convoluted then it may be advisable to use a professional, at least for
> the first year to be sure the critical decisions are made correctly
> up-front.  What's the consensus of the group?
>
> Adriana Gutierrez
> Green Cuisine
> Sarasota, Florida
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: whistle@halcyon.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
> 

From whistle@halcyon.com Mon Jan 31 11:45:56 2000
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:43:13 -0800
Subject: Re: border collie pups as herd protectors
From: "Shelley Pasco" <whistle@halcyon.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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Liz wrote:
When did you start your dog's formal training?  I've been advised, by border
collie/herding dog professional, not to start until he's  a year old, and in
the meantime-do not ever let him mouth the "herd" (us or whatever animals we
may have around.)

Liz,
The school I'm going to starts pups as early as possible--7 weeks is ideal.
I started mine when he was 5 months. He's a natural already. My instructor
starts by encouraging chasing after sheep, building confidence--even letting
the pup "floss his teeth" on a little wool. Then once he feels they're
ready, we move on to caring about the stock and keeping the safe distance.
Mine likes to do the "away" or clockwise direction more than the go by
direction, so we're working on that too. He could be herding ducks by
summer, but we'll wait and see.
I guess everyone's got their own method. I wasn't sure if you were seeing an
instructor or not. I didn't want to sound like a know-it-all, I was trying
to spare you the disappointment I experienced. My Aussie pup was just trying
to get them to play, but they can be hard on pullets--pulling on their
feathers and ripping skin. He didn't mean to kill them, but I sure couldn't
trust him alone with the birds.
Shelley
Whistling Train Farm
Kent, WA



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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: border collie pups as herd protectors</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF">
Liz wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>When did you start your dog's formal training? &nbsp;I've been =
advised, by border collie/herding dog professional, not to start until he's =
&nbsp;a year old, and in the meantime-do not ever let him mouth the &quot;he=
rd&quot; (us or whatever animals we may have around.) <BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>Liz,<BR>
The school I'm going to starts pups as early as possible--7 weeks is ideal.=
 I started mine when he was 5 months. He's a natural already. My instructor =
starts by encouraging chasing after sheep, building confidence--even letting=
 the pup &quot;floss his teeth&quot; on a little wool. Then once he feels th=
ey're ready, we move on to caring about the stock and keeping the safe dista=
nce. Mine likes to do the &quot;away&quot; or clockwise direction more than =
the go by direction, so we're working on that too. He could be herding ducks=
 by summer, but we'll wait and see. <BR>
I guess everyone's got their own method. I wasn't sure if you were seeing a=
n instructor or not. I didn't want to sound like a know-it-all, I was trying=
 to spare you the disappointment I experienced. My Aussie pup was just tryin=
g to get them to play, but they can be hard on pullets--pulling on their fea=
thers and ripping skin. He didn't mean to kill them, but I sure couldn't tru=
st him alone with the birds.<BR>
Shelley<BR>
Whistling Train Farm<BR>
Kent, WA<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>

--MS_Mac_OE_3032152993_5919423_MIME_Part--


From sojournr@missouri.org Mon Jan 31 11:55:31 2000
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References: <LYR98963-34584-2000.01.30-16.49.16--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99215-34617-2000.01.30-19.52.21--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99136-34733-2000.01.31-08.12.02--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99215-34774-2000.01.31-11.02.52--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99136-34782-2000.01.31-11.14.50--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Robert Farr wrote:
> 
> Holly:
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by: <spreading sawdust on TOP of your soil
> will not cause a nitrogen deficiency.>  What wouldn't it?

Well, think about it - why WOULD it?  How would a top layer of sawdust
reach down into the ground and yank nitrogen out of the soil?  It's much
easier for it to react (when it needs to, during the decomposition
process) with elements in the air and not in the soil.  There's a whole
lot of Nitrogen in our air, lots more Nitrogen than there is Oxygen.

Now, if you top dress with a nitrogen fertilizer, I would imagine that
the sawdust might "use up" some of that nitrogen in its decomposition
process as well, but personally I'm not using chemical fertilizers
anyway.  I've forgotten the exact process and the byproducts, but as I
recall what happens is that most of whatever nitrogen gets bound up in
the decomposing process is available for later rerelease.  It's
borrowed, and that mostly from the air, not stolen.

When you bury it (or any organic matter for that matter) you are forcing
it into an unnatural situation where the only recourse to Nitrogen is
what's in the soil, so of course that's where it gets it from.  

For years I buried organic matter because that was supposedly the way to
improve your soil.  Well, after two or 3 years of digging the same stuff
I had buried the previous year(s) up when adding the current year's
organic soil amendments, I finally got it through my thick head that,
hey - maybe the books are wrong!  Because there in front of my eyes was
the proof positive that those guys were talking through their hats. 
There, in the stratified layers of my double-digging and soil amending. 
Like an archeological dig, the undecomposed remains of organic matter
lay exposed to the eye.

So I quit doing it and I went to green manuring, mulching and layering
organic matter on TOP of the soil.  Voila, my soil began improving in
leaps and bounds.  Instead of being faced every spring with a mucky clay
mess, and every summer with a cracked, hard baked, concrete like
surface, I suddenly had real soil.  I had worms.  I had healthy plants. 
I no longer alternated between a swamp and a parking lot.

Due to a divorce that property was sold, but neighbors have informed me
that to this day the current owners still cannot grasp why the only
place the grass will grow on that whole lot (it was a plat house in a
suburb) is the area where they tore out my garden.  It's been 12 years
now and that's still the only spot in the yard that's any good soilwise.

So let's think about this for a moment:  we all know, don't we, that
leaf mold from a forest is really excellent soil, right?  What are the
conditions in a forest?  Lots of surface litter, mostly branches, twigs,
leaves (also high carbon) and downed trees.  It rots down to a rich
black fluffy type of soil.  The trees and undergrowth in the forest are
obviously not suffering from any lack of nitrogen - they grow just fine,
healthy, vigorous.

There's no reason on earth that you can't have the same sort of natural
process at work in your garden with sawdust, particularly sawdust mixed
with animal manure and urea.  And if its slower to rot than say straight
grass clippings, who cares?  That just means you get a little extra
mileage out of it as mulch in the meantime.  It adds up over time.

> Also - I've heard to keep manure away from carrots.  When I manure my
> carrot crop, it certainly provides bad tasting, forked monsters.  Why is
> that?

Too much fertilizer for root crops makes them grow lots of little root
hairs; lush growth for a carrot makes the root (which is the part we
eat) rootier to support the extra top growth.  They just grow too durn
much and too durn fast.  Carrots and such actually do better in slightly
poor soil, as long as its not stoney or hard (which will also lead to
forking but not the funny taste).

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From Garry.Stephenson@orst.edu Mon Jan 31 11:58:27 2000
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From: Garry.Stephenson@orst.edu
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Marketing Study
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:58:34 -0800
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)


Hello,

A study we did two years ago showed the positive economic impacts farmers'
markets have on downtown areas. The study also has other tidbits like how much
more consumers are willing to spend for products at farmers' markets as opposed
to grocery stores. Find it at:
http://smallfarms.orst.edu/analyzing_three_farmers.htm

Garry


Garry Stephenson
Extension Small Farm Program
Oregon State University




From berryman70@yahoo.com Mon Jan 31 12:13:00 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:12:55
Subject: Re: Periodicals
To: market-farming
From: "Don Palmer" <berryman70@yahoo.com>


I recieve Country Folk Grower, it covers greenhouse, fruit and vegetables, 
nurseries, and some bee keeping. I'm not shure how much of the country  it 
covers, I get the north east edition which also includes a southern 
section.
Lee Publications,INC.
PO box 121, 6113St.Hwy.5
Palatine Bridge, NY 13428
e-mail: grower@telenet.net
$15.00 per year 

Don
Palmer's Fruits & Vegetables
> Anyone else have other recommended periodicals?
> 
> Marcy Nameth
> SE Colorado 
> 
> Elizabeth Pike wrote:

From maroc@islandnet.com Mon Jan 31 12:20:03 2000
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:25:09 +0000
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: maroc@islandnet.com (Maroc)
Subject: deer deterrence


When it comes to deer nothing works like a good dog.

Don Maroc
Vancouver Island, Canada



From doodles@netins.net Mon Jan 31 12:41:46 2000
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:41:54 -0800
Subject: More Magazines (?)
From: "Ericka & Rich Dana" <doodles@netins.net>
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        orGaNicgrowing@egroups.com
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Here are three I've never heard of that I found at Cappy's site, and they 
looked interesting. Any reviews from subscribers I'd love to hear - I'd like
to try them all, but $ will not permit so maybe you can help me decide.

1) AgVentures 580-628-4551

2) American Small Farm 818-716-3131

3) Fresh Cut 800-900-2452

Hope I haven't missed a post already mentioning these. I'm behind in my
reading.
Thanks, Ericka Dana - Catnip Farm (Iowa)

--The Mighty Oak was once a little nut that held its ground.


From hunger@hunger.org Mon Jan 31 12:42:11 2000
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I've done way too many tax returns over the years, and asking a cpa or lawyer to do
bookkeeping also in tax seasin is bad for you. It'll cost too much and delay prep. of
your return.

Tax seminars for farmers are usually provided by state extension offices, and the IRS
publication : Tax Guide for Farmers (Publication No. 225) is free at IRS offices, some
post offices, libraries, etc, or at www.irs.gov

Whether you or someone else does the actual return, tax knowledge is highly economic for
year round decision making. And an educated client is always a better client for the
cpa/lawyer.


From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Mon Jan 31 12:49:16 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: Re: Production methods: tillage, beds, rows, etc.
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:49:25 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
Reply-To: lflondon@mindspring.com
Message-ID: <kueb9s055jm2ikvf3ihssas8t0pv3d35v3@4ax.com>
References: <LYR99215-34615-2000.01.30-19.41.59--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99014-34731-2000.01.31-08.06.16--fsfarm#mufn.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99215-34753-2000.01.31-10.19.16--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <39499@market-farming>
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On Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:33:29 -0500, Robert Farr <rbfarr@erols.com>
wrote:

>I've been looking for a broad fork for some time.
>Where can I find one - an affordable one (no Smith and Hawken for me),
>that is!

I assume you mean a U-bar digger, the kind of tool John Jeavons
developed, rather than a digging fork or spade fork.

Peaceful Valley Farm Supply has the best Ubar I have seen
(the only one I would consider buying - and will unlesss I fabricate
one for myself). Theirs was written up in Taunton Press'  "Kitchen
Gardener" in an article about the author's favorite tools.

Peaceful Valley Farm Supply
Toll free: 1-888-784-1722
PO BOx 2209
Grass Valley, Calif., 95945
530-272-4769

Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu


From doodles@netins.net Mon Jan 31 12:50:03 2000
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Subject: Non-hollow stem vine crops (squash, melons)
From: "Ericka & Rich Dana" <doodles@netins.net>
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I'm looking for more of these.

We just ended a BAD year of early heat, drought, and every kind of bug, and
kiew yokes (bitter melon) made it through untouched, acorn varieties and
sugar pie pumpkins did fine, birdhouse gourds and muskmelons/cantaloupe were
OK, and everything else (5-12 varieties each of summer squash, winter
squash, melons & cucumbers mostly died, some we got one or two weeks of
harvest from, most none (and I protected, re-planted over and over, nothing
helped).

So I want to expand my list of "hardys" - got any suggestions? BTW, those
kiew yokes were AMAZING!
Ericka
--The Mighty Oak was once a little nut that held its ground.


From gutierrez-lagatta@home.com Mon Jan 31 12:52:27 2000
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:52:20
Subject: Re: More Magazines (?)
To: market-farming
From: "Adriana Gutierrez" <gutierrez-lagatta@home.com>


Ericka,
Most magazines will send you a free copy if you contact them.  I did this 
with Ag Ventures.  It was interesting but a bit amateurish in it's 
presentation, formatting, typesetting, etc.  In the end I decided not to 
subscribe due to $limitations - the content was interesting but all over 
the ball park.  I know I requested the copy online after a tricky search 
for it, sorry I can't give you the URL.

Adriana

From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Mon Jan 31 12:53:02 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: Re: Production methods: tillage, beds, rows, etc.
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:53:09 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
Reply-To: lflondon@mindspring.com
Message-ID: <l9fb9s87hgjh3ll5mkhmpv9rk7o8ernuj7@4ax.com>
References: <LYR99119-34629-2000.01.30-20.22.25--grandad#grandadsfarm.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <39452@market-farming>
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On Mon, 31 Jan 2000 01:23:29 -0600, Grandad <grandad@grandadsfarm.com>
wrote:

>> Its the _edges_ (crenelated, natural/random) that make the mandala-shaped
>> raised bed work. It requires more planning anf labor initially but offers
>> (potentially) a bigger payback than rectangular, square or round beds, and
>> certainly rows or row-beds).

>  What is a mandala shape?

I did a little pic with a paint program that is similar to a mandala -
it will give you the idea anyway.

See: http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/images/crenlogo.jpg

Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu


From rbfarr@erols.com Mon Jan 31 12:53:15 2000
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Beautiful - just what I mean, Lawrence.

Thanks you!

Robert.



From jcvk@hotmail.com Mon Jan 31 13:09:28 2000
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From: "Jennifer-Claire Klotz" <jcvk@hotmail.com>
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: farmers markets....information....grants....
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:09:46 PST
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Dear Listers,

Seeing all the discussion about farmers market....

At http://www.ams.usda.gov/directmarketing there are quite a few links on 
direct marketing (including farmers markets).  Someone mentioned the Ohio 
study....research like that can be found there (via links) if it is on line. 
  The objective of this site is to be a resource for this type of 
information!

On the index page (of the above Website) there is also a link about the 
AMS-SARE partnership for producer marketing grants.  (Or you can go to it 
directly at  http://www.ams.usda.gov/directmarketing/sare.htm)  For those of 
you in the North Central and Western SARE regions, the application deadlines 
have NOT passed.  Your farmers market CAN apply for a marketing grant - make 
sure you read the criteria - chances are you will be surprised at how "wide" 
it is!  I see all the people from WA and OR on here....maybe something you 
want to consider for your market to help boost your marketing efforts?

Best regards
Claire Klotz
Economist
AMS - USDA
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From jmeyer@shaysnet.com Mon Jan 31 13:09:57 2000
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Subject: small scale producer cooperatives conference
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<color><param>0100,0100,0100</param><FontFamily><param>Times New Roman</param>This is shaping up to be an exceptional conference!  As a coordinator of 
this conference, I would be happy to answer any questions.  If  you would 
like to talk to other farmers who will be in atttendance, let me know!  
Hope to see you there!  Info about this event is also on the web at 
www.smallfarm.org

Sincerely,

Julie Meyer


United We Grow:


A Working Conference for Small-Scale Vegetable

and Fruit Cooperatives in the Northeast


MARCH 1-2, 2000


Tuscarora Inn and Conference Center

Mt. Bethel, PA



Sponsored by the "NE Small-Scale Grower Cooperative Project":

* Farming Alternatives Program, Cornell University

* Northeast Sustainable Agriculture Working Group

* Cornell Cooperative Enterprise Program

* New England Small Farm Institute


Contributing co-sponsors of this conference:

* USDA Rural-Business Cooperative Service

* Farm Foundation

* Northeast Cooperatives

* Northeast Regional Center for Rural Development

* Cooperative Development Institute/Cooperative 
Life


Small-scale fruit and vegetable cooperatives have 
the potential to be an increasingly important 
component of a vital Northeast agriculture. With 
over forty such co-ops in the region, we have 
much to learn from one another and from people 
with a passion for co-ops from across the country.



The purpose of this conference is to strengthen 
existing cooperatives, foster new co-op 
development, and promote networking and 
organizing.



What are the current opportunities and challenges 
facing small-scale grower co-ops in the 
Northeast? What are the characteristics of 
successful co-ops? How can co-ops work together 
to increase opportunities for commercial fruit 
and vegetable farmers and for the industry as a 
whole? These are some of the questions that this 
conference will address. 


Co-op members, administrators, and advocates from 
Georgia, Alabama, and Mississippi will join the 
Northeast cooperative community to share 
information and ideas, successes and challenges. 
We will also consider the potential for creating 
regional structures and activities to build our 

strength.  


Emerging from a two-year research project 
investigating experiences of small-scale producer 
cooperatives in the Northeast, this conference is 
an opportunity to learn from and network with 
other small-scale grower cooperative members and 
supporters. Through "participatory action" 
research, project team members have been 
conducting intensive surveys and interviews with 
over 40 co-op managers and board members. Many of 
the provocative findings will be presented at 
this conference.  



Featured Guests: 

Ann Brewer, manager of Georgia Grown Cooperative, 
Inc., a successful producer cooperative marketing 
to restaurants.


Magid Dagher, a member of the Mississippi 
Association of the Federation of Southern 
Cooperatives and Director of Small Farm 
Development Center, Alcorn State University, MS.


Duncan Hilchey, co-author of Marketing 
Cooperatively: One Region's Answer, Senior 
Extension Associate at Cornell University's 
Farming Alternatives Program and senior 
researcher for this project.


Gus Townes, a primary organizer and marketing 
specialist with the Federation of Southern 
Cooperatives for over 15 years, and director of 
the Federation's Rural Training Center in Alabama.



Schedule of Events:


Wednesday, March 1st:


9:00-10:00 Registration


10:00 Welcome and Plenary: "The Importance of 
Producer Co-ops"- Magid Dagher (Small Farm 
Development Center, MS), "Results of N.E. Co-op 
Managers' Survey"- Duncan Hilchey (Cornell 
University, NY)


11:00 Workshop Sessions:

A. Innovative Co-op Marketing Strategies- Ann 
Brewer (Georgia Grown, GA), Roberta MacDonald 
(Cabot Creamery, VT), Chris Poshpeck (Deep Root 
Organic Truck Farmers, VT)

B. Getting Started- Roger Allbee (Cooperative 
Development Institute, MA), 

Doyle Freeman (Alliance, PA)

C. Financial Management- Gerald Ely (USDA Rural 
Development, PA), Laura Howard (Sustainable 
Business Solutions, MA)

D. Research and Policy Issues- Gil Gillespie 
(Cornell 

University, NY), Kathy Ruhf (New England Small 
Farm Institute, MA)


12:30 Lunch


1:30 Workshop Sessions:

E. Co-op Philosophy- Lynn Benander 
(CDI/Cooperative Life, MA), Randall Torgerson 
(USDA RBCS, D.C.)

F. Planning Primer- Bruce Anderson (Cornell 
University, NY), Laura Howard (Sustainable 
Business Solutions, MA)

G. Dilemmas of Scale- Magid Dagher (Mississippi 
Federation of Southern Cooperatives, MS), Tom 
Gray (USDA RBCS, D.C.), Carol Stull (Finger Lakes 
Organic Growers Cooperative, NY)

H. Effective Boards and Managers- Father Randy 
Eldridge (H.O.M.E., ME), Chris Fullerton 
(Tuscarora Organic Growers Cooperative, PA), 
Brian Henehan (Cornell University, NY)


3:00 Break


3:30 Facilitated Discussion Groups: For board 
members, managers, "start-ups," "veterans," 
service providers, and co-op members.  Identify 
issues and network with peers.


5:30 Dinner


7:00 Resource Reception: 

7:00-7:45 What's Out There? Public and private 
cooperative resources and support. Lynn Benander 
(CDI), Susan Clare, (Local Enterprise Assistance 
Fund, MA), Bob Pestridge (USDA CDS).

7:45-8:30 Stories from Afar, with Ann Brewer and 
Magid Dagher.

8:30-on: Stories from Home:  Share successes, 
challenges, innovations, lessons; a chance to 
tell your story and hear from others in the 
Northeast.


Thursday, March 2nd:


8:30 Breakfast


9:30 Plenary: "Getting Organized"- Gus Townes 
(Federation of Southern Cooperatives, AL)


10:30 Networking and Organizing: Structured 
breakout sessions to brainstorm & plan regional 
actions to strengthen our co-ops.


12:30 Lunch and Roundtable: Co-operation between 
Northeast Co-operatives and growers. 


1:30 Plenary: "Next Steps: Developing An Action 
Plan:  Kathy Ruhf (NESFI, MA)


3:00 Adjourn



Logistics:


Registration: fee of $60 includes 2-day 
conference events, 4 meals, 2 breaks, reception, 
and materials.

A Special Deal: for "participating cooperatives," 
registration fee is waived for a second 
representative from your cooperative. One free 
registration per co-op. ("Participating" means 
Cornell has contacted you for the research study 
and you have completed and returned your 
questionnaire. If you haven't, just drop it in 
the mail before 

applying for the discount.)


Lodging:  Rooms at the Tuscarora Inn and 
Conference Ctr. Are double occupancy at 
$70/person/night.


Meals:  Registration includes Wednesday lunch and 
dinner, and Thursday breakfast and lunch. Early 
Arrival?  Reserve a room for Tuesday night, which 

includes a breakfast on Wednesday. 


Any questions? Special needs? Looking to carpool? 
Contact Julie Meyer at (413) 665-7725 between 8am 
and 6pm or jmeyer@shaysnet.com.

Deadline for registration is February 11, 2000



Registration:  


Name:__________________________________

Participating cooperative or other affiliation: 

________________________________

Address:__________________________________________
____________

_____

Day Phone Number/ Evening Phone Number: 

_______________/________________

E-mail or fax:_______________________

Check here if you are the 2nd representative from 
your co-op 

(your registration fee is waived). ___ 

Roommate Preference (Name):_______________

Special dietary needs?______________________


1) Registration at $60			____

2) Lodging Wednesday, 3/1/99 @ $70	____

	Single room?  Add $20 		____

3) Early arrival Tuesday night lodging/

Wednesday breakfast? @ $70		____

	Single room?  Add $20		____

Total amount enclosed:			_____


Mail with check payable to NESFI, to:  

United We Grow, C/O Julie Meyer, 

288 Hadley Road, Sunderland, MA 01375

Registration Deadline:  2/11/00



Directions: From the east: Going west on Route 
80, go to exit 4 in New Jersey (Columbia- 
Blairstown).  Follow signs to Columbia then to 
the Portland Bridge. Go over bridge, through the 
tollbooth, and make the first right hand turn. At 
the stop sign, make another right turn onto River 
Road (not marked). Follow this road, along the 
Delaware River, for three miles to 

Tuscarora Inn and Conference Center. From the 
south: Follow 611 north.  When 611 exits before 
the Portland toll bridge, make right turn 
(instead of following 611). Follow this road, 
along the Delaware River, for three miles to 
Tuscarora Inn and Conference Center. From the 
west: Going east on Route 80, exit at Delaware 
Water Gap - Exit 53 (last exit in PA). Follow 
sign to Route 611 South (pass Ramada Inn on your 
left, continue to traffic light, make left onto 
611 South).  Stay on this road until you come to 
the town of Portland- about 5 miles. When you 
come through the town, Route 611 turns right. Do 
not turn. Keep going straight under the bridge 
and continue 

on this road, along the Delaware River, for three 
miles to Tuscarora Inn and Conference Center. 
Tuscarora Inn and Conference Center, 3300 River 
Road, Mt Bethel, PA  (570) 897-6000.


<nofill>

From soberle@bwn.net Mon Jan 31 13:12:31 2000
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:13:03 -0700
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Just a thank you for the post. I've been tryng to find as much as possible along these
lines to develop a genuine marketing program for our market.

It just warms my heart to see tax dollars really work!

Garry.Stephenson@orst.edu wrote:

> Hello,
>
> A study we did two years ago showed the positive economic impacts farmers'
> markets have on downtown areas. The study also has other tidbits like how much
> more consumers are willing to spend for products at farmers' markets as opposed
> to grocery stores. Find it at:
> http://smallfarms.orst.edu/analyzing_three_farmers.htm
>
> Garry
>
> Garry Stephenson
> Extension Small Farm Program
> Oregon State University
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: soberle@bwn.net
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')

--
***********************
Sue Oberle
Oberle Botanical
Fort Collins, Colorado
email: soberle@bwn.net
voice: (970)493-5672
fax:   (970)493-3358
***********************



From gutierrez-lagatta@home.com Mon Jan 31 13:18:47 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:18:44
Subject: Re: gobbledygook
To: market-farming
From: "Adriana Gutierrez" <gutierrez-lagatta@home.com>


Liz,
The gobbledygook seemed to show up on your original "Pricing" and "Border 
Collie" posts but not on others when I accessed the list on-line rather 
than through e-mail.  I'm subscribed in Digest form but had time to check 
in today so I used that route.  The messages in question are preceded by 
"This message is a multi-part message in MIME format", perhaps this is the 
button your dog hits?:>)

Adriana

From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Mon Jan 31 13:19:44 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: csa,market-farming,permaculture
Subject: Announcing CSA list co-owner + List FAQ
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:19:23 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
Reply-To: lflondon@mindspring.com
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List subscribers:

I am delighted to announce that Art Biggert (SCook21809@aol.com) has
offered to co-own this list with me. I am sure the he is well known to
all of you. Contact Art about CSA issues as related to the list and me
about any technical issues, subscribing and unsubscribing and list
info.

Many thanks and enjoy!

Lawrence

For those needing it here is the FAQ for this list (apologies to
those who've already seen it too many times).
<>

Announcing the new Community Supported Agriculture mailing list.
       
A Community Supported Agriculture mailing list has been started
countesy of UNC MetaLab's Lyris server. Please distribute this
announcement wherever appropriate. The market-farming list may also
be of interest to many of you; information about it, this list and
other
agriculture and permaculture forums can be found at 
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden.

Art Biggert
CSA List Co-Owner
Lawrence London
CSA List Co-Owner

Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu

<><><>

Welcome to the Community Supported Agriculture e-mail 
list and discussion group: csa@franklin.oit.unc.edu

Community Supported Agriculture Mailing List List FAQ

Frequently Asked Questions about the 
Community Supported Agriculture discussion group


* WHAT IS Community Supported Agriculture?

Name of list: csa
Posting address for list: csa@franklin.oit.unc.edu

csa@franklin.oit.unc.edu is a mailing list/newsgroup/webforum
for networking among farmers involved in operating a CSA

The listowners are:

Art Biggert
SCook21809@aol.com
Ocean Sky Farm
Bainbridge Island, WA 

Lawrence London 
Venaura Farm
lflondon@mindspring.com
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden


* HOW DO I SUBSCRIBE TO CSA?

Self-subscribe throuth the Web by accessing the website at
http://franklin.oit.unc.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=csa


Subscribing & unsubscribing to csa 
using email instead of the Web interface: 

In case you do not have Web access or for any reason need to use the
email
interface, here are some key commands;

In all cases, the default server address is:
lyris@franklin.oit.unc.edu

This is the email address to send commands to change the status of
your
account. Other addresses are shown where appropriate. Note that
commands
may be placed in either the subject line or in the body of the
message. For
some actions you have several choices of commands and you may use the
one
that suits your preferred mode.

SUBSCRIBING:
subscribe csa
subscribe csa your_name
join csa
join csa your_name
alternate address: join-csa@franklin.oit.unc.edu

UNSUBSCRIBING:
unsubscribe csa
leave csa
alternate address: leave-csa@franklin.oit.unc.edu

SETTING MEMBERSHIP TO DIGEST MODE:
set csa digest

SETTING MEMBERSHIP TO INDEX MODE:
set csa index

SETTING MEMBERSHIP TO DISCUSSION MODE:
set csa mail

TEMPORARILY SUSPENDING MAIL FROM THE LIST: set csa nomail
RESUMING MAIL FROM THE LIST:
set csa mail
set csa digest
set csa index

You may subscribe as an e-mail list, a digest of that list or just
gain
access to the usegroup which gives you access to posts from the web
but
doesn't deliver them to your mailbox. If you lack web access, or the
e-mail
commands don't seem to work, e-mail me at lflondon@mindspring.com
or london@metalab.unc.edu with your email address and (optional)
full name, and I'll sign you up.


* HOW DO I UNSUBSCRIBE TO CSA?

At the end of every post to this list there is text at the bottom of
the
page with automated unsubscription info and procedure. Here is a
sample
from a typical post:

You are currently subscribed to csa as: <your email address>
To unsubscribe send a blank email to
leave-csa-<user number>@franklin.oit.unc.edu

OR Self-unsubscribe by accessing the website at
http://franklin.oit.unc.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=csa.

If you lack web access, or the instructions don't work for you, e-mail
me
with your full name and email address, and I'll unsubscribe you.
PLEASE DO NOT SEND UNSUBSCRIBE MESSAGES TO THE ENTIRE LIST.


* DO I HAVE TO SUBSCRIBE TO READ THE POSTS?

You  can read the posts using the Web interface as well as the News
interface without being a subscriber to the list.

To read using the Web interface go to:

http://franklin.oit.unc.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=csa and click
on the button that says "Visit csa without joining"

To read using the News interface use the following methods:

Method 1 using your news reader:
-
Access via Usenet news can be had by adding this news server name to
your
list of news servers in your news reader, or make it your default
server:

franklin.oit.unc.edu

Connect to the franklin.oit.unc.edu news server, download the list of
available newsgroups and subscribe to csa. Subscribing to the csa
newsgroup 
does not make you a subscriber to the list. You can post to the
newsgroup 
only if you are a list subscriber; otherwise you can read the
newsgroup.

Method 2 using your Web browser [+ news reader]: 
-
go to this URL (i.e. type this URL into the dialog box in your web
browser)
news://franklin.oit.unc.edu (news:// is part of a URL just like ftp://
and
http://) and download the list of available newsgroups and subscribe
to 
csa.

or go to this URL:
news://franklin.oit.unc.edu/csa for reading (and/or posting if
you're a list subscriber)


* HOW DO I POST TO Community Supported Agriculture?

Send your messages to:
csa@franklin.oit.unc.edu

You have to be a list subscriber to post to csa using either the
Email, Web or News interface. You can, however read all posts,
including the archives, as a non-subscriber.

In order to post to csa, you must be subscribed  to the list AND send
your
message from the email account that you used to subscribe to the list.
In
other  words, if you have several e-mail accounts or aliases, you need
to
send e-mail from the account you used to subscribed.

IMPORTANT NOTE: All posts to csa are permanently archived.  This
allows folks to go back and search for specific information in a
thread.
It also means your name is archived with your post.  If this is a
problem
for you, it's best you not use this list.


*  WHERE CAN I FIND ARCHIVES OF POSTINGS TO CSA?

On the world wide web at:
http://franklin.oit.unc.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=csa


* WHAT ARE SOME OTHER WEBSITES OR DISCUSSION GROUPS 
  THAT MIGHT BE OF INTEREST

SANET-MG Sponsored by the Sustainable Agriculture Network at the USDA,
this list is international in scope. It is largely populated by
academics
and the discussions are frequently philosophical and/or policy
oriented.
However, farmers frequently lurk here and research on any given topic
is
available for the asking. Archives and subscription information can be
found at http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail

BD-L Biodynamic farming list. The philosophy and practice of
biodynamics
http://www.biodynamics.com/ gets you to the website and subscription
to
the list. BD CSAs are listed here.

InterGarden at MetaLab (forums, links, information):
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden
http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture

There's a special document with info on accessing all these lists in a
file at this URL: http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/forumdoc.txt

Lists of interest at the MetaLab Lyris server include:

csa
soil-quality
seed-saving
community-foodsystems
herb 
market-farming
permaculture
permaculture-calendar

The Sustainable Farming Connection
Developed and maintained by Craig Cramer formerly editor of The New
Farm.
This site is a cornucopia of resources and topics. Sustainable
techniques
for farms of all sizes and crops.
http://sunsite.unc.edu/farming-connection/

ATTRA - Appropriate Technology Transfer to Rural Areas One of the best
appropriate scale and alternative crop sites on the web. Loaded with
publications and links. This is THE site for posting apprenticeship
and
internship opportunities www.ATTRA.org

IF YOU GARDEN FOR PLEASURE, LANDSCAPE, AND EXPERIMENTATION the
following
sites may be better suited to your needs

http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden 
Rodale Press Gardening http://www.rodalepress.com./gardening.htm
National Gardening Association www.garden.org

IF YOU HOMESTEAD OR FARM PRIMARILY AS A LIFESTYLE CHOICE AND GROW FOOD
primarily to feed your own family, the following site may be better
suited
to your needs

http://www.homestead.org
Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu


From cappy@harborside.com Mon Jan 31 13:31:47 2000
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From: cappy@harborside.com
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>,
        Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Reply-To: cappy@harborside.com
References: <LYR99013-34710-2000.01.31-04.09.03--cappy#harborside.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Subject: Re: freezing


Quoting Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>:

> Liz,
>
> > Do any of you freeze your excess whatever  & sell 
it later??  Would this
> >be regulated by health  departments??
>
> Regulated big time by the health departments here.  
You might be able to do
> it IF the was a commercial kitchen to prepare the 
berries -- wash 'em, cap
> 'em, bag 'em,  and then froze them.  I'm not even 
sure that would fly here.
>
>
> Marcie A. Rosenzweig
> Full Circle Organic Farm
> Auburn, CA
>
>
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: 
cappy@harborside.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
>
> 
Hello,

Here in the northwest there are more commercial 
incubator kitchens popping up with full facilities and 
every imaginable kind of equipment. (and marketing help
and health regulations support and information)

There's one at Hood River Community College (east of 
Portland) that is open 24 hours - rents kitchen time at
$10 an hour.  I know of of college gal in Portland who 
is putting herself through school using the kitchen to 
bake her ginger snap cookies, Hannah's Snaps.  She 
bakes, bags and labels them there and sells at the 
Portland Saturday market.

Just heard about another in Washington state - $9 an 
hour.

You might try locating commercial kitchens in your area.
The internet can help - type in incubator commercial 
kitchens.

Wonder if there is a network association of kitchens?  
I can call the Hood River one and find out.

Cappy Tosetti
on the Oregon coast

www.bumpercropmarketing.com

From rbfarr@erols.com Mon Jan 31 13:35:31 2000
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From: Robert Farr <rbfarr@erols.com>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Julie:

Where is Mount Bethel?

I'd be coming from the very top of Va., about 10 mi. from the Eastern
Panhandle of W. Va.

Robert.



From marc@aculink.net Mon Jan 31 13:36:26 2000
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Liz,
I hope your border collie works out better than ours.  We
too got a puppy and she would get in the pens with the
chickens and eat right alongside them.  She was 6 weeks when
we got her, but she started chasing more and more - the
guineas and ducks and the chickens AND the boys.  They're 3
and 4 years old and weren't learning fast enough to push her
down.  The last day we had her a chicken got out of the
pasture pen and she chased that poor bird all over the
place.  Luckily she was still young enough to be cute and
they found her another place to live where she could herd
BIGGER animals. 
The next day we found a 2 1/2 year old great pyr/chow mix. 
He's much calmer around the chickens - we raise pastured
poultry, so wanted something that will have the guardian
personality.  We have lots of coyotes, owls, coons and
neighbor dogs.  So far he's doing pretty good.
Sorry to hear about your experience last year with the wild
dogs and hope he helps!

Marcy

> Elizabeth Pike wrote:
> 
> Dogs-we just bought a border collie.  We've had advice,
> for when we restock our chickens, to get a border collie
> pup  & raise it in the pen, right along with the chicks.
> (For those who don't know, we had wild dogs destroy a
> flock of 80 chickens & 5 meat rabbits last year, not once,
> but twice , 40 chicks the last time).  Before doing this
> though, I wanted to get to know the breed.  He is a great
> herder, as witnessed by all our holey socks (around the
> ankles) & chewed shoe strings.  As for protection, he's
> still a bit young.  He really likes the UPS man & barks at
> rain-don't know if this is a good sign!  He is great for
> staying right where the "herd" is, rarely moves far from
> us or the house.
> - - - - -  - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From wshoemak@inil.com Mon Jan 31 13:45:15 2000
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From: "Bill Shoemaker" <wshoemak@inil.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: peppers
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:45:27 -0600
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Last year I tried to grow a yellow and an orange bell pepper, never
>turned.  I also bought a six pack of
>chocolate peppers they never changed either.  Last year was dry.  Any
>suggestions?  Thanks Beth


Beth

    Peppers, especially bell peppers like the colored peppers you had
problems with, have a tremendous capacity to flower. They will just drop off
flowers and very young fruit they cannot support (Watch the ground
underneath pepper plants next growing season). When the plant goes into
severe stress, it just drops it's fruit and waits for better conditions.
Hot, dry summers are the worst for peppers, unless you can irrigate
properly, and I emphasize properly. If you maintain adequate water, you
should be able to produce fine colored peppers. Unless, of course, your
season is too short. But there are only a few areas in the continental
States that don't have a long enough growing season.

Bill Shoemaker
Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
Univ of Illinois - St Charles Hort Research Center


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Cappy:

I have a commercial kitchen here - we have two kitchens in the house,
one downstairs, which I have inspected yearly by Virginia's Food Safety
dept.

I should consider renting space!

Robert.



From JoAKilroy@aol.com Mon Jan 31 13:56:06 2000
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In a message dated 01/31/2000 10:00:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
gutierrez-lagatta@home.com writes:

<< I'm just completing my first full year of market farming and am trying
 to decide whether to do my income taxes myself or "farm them out" :>). 
 How many of you do your own and how many use a tax professional?
  >>
Hello all,
  I'm new & I've been lurking.  I am a tax professional.  If I can help, just 
ask.  I'm not an expert on farm returns yet, but I hope to be. What ever I 
research for someone, is only going to increase my expertise.   
JoAnne

From cappy@harborside.com Mon Jan 31 14:08:48 2000
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Subject: Re: freezing


Quoting Robert Farr <rbfarr@erols.com>:

> Cappy:
>
> I have a commercial kitchen here - we have two 
kitchens in the house,
> one downstairs, which I have inspected yearly by 
Virginia's Food Safety
> dept.
>
> I should consider renting space!
>
> Robert.
>
>
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: 
cappy@harborside.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
>
> 
Hello to you Robert,

That's great!  You might have yourself a new niche 
market right there under your roof.  It could really 
help a lot of small farms and any specialty food 
companies (especially those starting out).

If it's legal and up to par, it might be something to 
consider.  It's worth thinking about.

Please keep me posted.

Cappy



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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:41:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Periodicals
From: "Lynn Byczynski" <growing4market@earthlink.net>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>,
        market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Marc & Marcy,

We would be happy to send a sample to anyone interested.  Just email us, or
call us toll free at 800-307-8949.
---
Lynn Byczynski or Dan Nagengast <growing4market@earthlink.net>
Growing for Market 
Kansas Rural Center 785/748-0959


-

From alliance.for.living@snet.net Mon Jan 31 15:15:31 2000
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Subject: RE: Periodicals
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:19:18 -0500
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Please send me a sample-Mike Rosenkrantz  17 Shore Drive,  Waterford, CT
06385.  Thanks.

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Lynn Byczynski [mailto:growing4market@earthlink.net]
Sent:	Monday, January 31, 2000 1:42 PM
To:	market farming
Subject:	Re: Periodicals

Marc & Marcy,

We would be happy to send a sample to anyone interested.  Just email us, or
call us toll free at 800-307-8949.
---
Lynn Byczynski or Dan Nagengast <growing4market@earthlink.net>
Growing for Market
Kansas Rural Center 785/748-0959


-

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From mjb@premier1.net Mon Jan 31 15:20:21 2000
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From: "Michaele Blakely" <mjb@premier1.net>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: moldy hay and farmer's lung
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:27:31 -0800
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Hi All:

Just got back in town and was absolutely delighted to see the wonderful =
info crossing this list.  I just read it all and saw no posting on this =
so thought I'd send out a word of caution to those of you who use moldy =
hay/straw for mulching.  Be aware of farmer's lung which is a condition =
that occurs with breathing in the mold that grows in straw and hay.  =
Just use a dust mask when you spread it, or for that matter when you =
clean anything that could potentially have mold growing i.e. a chicken =
coop that's gotten wet, a barn etc.  Here in Washington most farmers are =
pretty aware of it because it is wet here, but don't know about the rest =
of the country.  So if I'm passing on old info I apologize, I just =
wanted to make sure as it can be quite serious.  A neighbor got it and =
he will never be the same.
Michaele
Growing Things
Carnation WA

------=_NextPart_000_0243_01BF6BE6.8B533740
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi All:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Just got back in town and was =
absolutely delighted=20
to see the wonderful info crossing this list.&nbsp; I just read it all =
and saw=20
no posting on this so thought I'd send out a word of caution to those of =
you who=20
use moldy hay/straw for mulching.&nbsp; Be aware of farmer's lung which =
is a=20
condition that occurs with breathing in the mold that grows in straw and =

hay.&nbsp; Just use a dust mask when you spread it, or for that matter =
when you=20
clean anything that could potentially have mold growing i.e. a chicken =
coop=20
that's gotten wet, a barn etc.&nbsp; Here in Washington most farmers are =
pretty=20
aware of it because it is wet here, but don't know about the rest of the =

country.&nbsp; So if I'm passing on old info I apologize, I just wanted =
to make=20
sure as it can be quite serious.&nbsp; A neighbor got it and he will =
never be=20
the same.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Michaele</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Growing Things</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Carnation WA</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0243_01BF6BE6.8B533740--


From pike@always-online.com Mon Jan 31 15:33:16 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <200001311750.LAA20271@smtp-out.netins.net>
Subject: Kiew yoke?
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:34:37 -0500
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What is this? 

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, NC


From waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Mon Jan 31 15:34:23 2000
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:36:25 -0500
From: Alex McGregor <waldenfarm@sprintmail.com>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Farming Income Tax Preparation
References: <LYR99039-34678-2000.01.31-00.02.32--gutierrez-lagatta#home.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98943-34748-2000.01.31-09.59.35--waldenfarm#sprintmail.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Adriana,

I use Quicken for our accounting. We have 2 businesses- farm and massage. I have both
accounts set up with categories on schedule F & C. That way, I can just copy totals from
a "report" at the end of the year into the spaces on the forms. Makes it fast and easy. I
also have a spreadsheet set up to record and compute our mileage for 2 vehicles.

I had an accountant do our returns years ago when they started getting complicated. This
gives us an outline, but it pays to keep up with what's going on each year with IRS
changes. Having an accountant friend sure helps!

I've never used TurboTax, mainly because I have the impression you have to buy new
formats or updates each year. Is this true? And how do you guys like it?

Alex

Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta wrote:

> I'm just completing my first full year of market farming and am trying
> to decide whether to do my income taxes myself or "farm them out" :>).
> How many of you do your own and how many use a tax professional?


From pike@always-online.com Mon Jan 31 15:40:25 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR99013-34710-2000.01.31-04.09.03--cappy#harborside.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34825-2000.01.31-13.31.47--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: freezing
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:41:53 -0500
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I have a commercial kitchen, but I don't think the extensive red tape
dealing with the health dept is worth it.  I'd rather grow under cover & eat
in season.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, NC


From FullCircleFarm@brown.edu Mon Jan 31 15:48:00 2000
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 .unc.edu>
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:49:19 -0500
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: FullCircleFarm <FullCircleFarm@brown.edu>
Subject: Re: livestock and vegetable guard dogs
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I second the recommendation of maremmas as guard dogs.  Neighbors of 
mine have one who faced off for twenty minutes against a sizable 
black bear who wandered into the sheep pasture.  Lots of posturing on 
both sides, then the bear walked away.  The dog was not extremely 
aggressive, just adamant about staying between the bear and the 
sheep.  He barked much of the night, after that, perhaps because the 
bear was still lurking.
This maremma and a co-worker of his are both placid and easy-going 
dogs under most circumstances, and don't seem to need to be put in 
their place.
 
Don, Judy & MICHAEL WILMETH
Full Circle Farm, 15 South Road, Heath MA 01346 -- 413-377-5754
<FullCircleFarm@brown.edu>

From waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Mon Jan 31 15:49:22 2000
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:51:24 -0500
From: Alex McGregor <waldenfarm@sprintmail.com>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Horse manure/sawdust
References: <LYR98963-34584-2000.01.30-16.49.16--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99215-34617-2000.01.30-19.52.21--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99136-34733-2000.01.31-08.12.02--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98943-34774-2000.01.31-11.02.52--waldenfarm#sprintmail.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Sojourner wrote:

> The belief that sawdust will "tie up the nitrogen" in your soil is a
> myth based on studies done with sawdust that had been "worked in" to the
> soil - e.g., was decomposing (or rather not) in anaerobic conditions.
>
> Spreading sawdust on TOP of your soil will not cause a nitrogen
> deficiency.  Aerobic decomposition, taking place in the presence of
> oxygen (which is what goes on when you surface spread) is a whole
> 'nother animal than anaerobic.

It is true that adding any dead plant material to the soil will "tie up" the nitrogen.
This means that the nitrogen is used by the population explosion of the soil life that
happens when you add a lot of "food" for them. The nitrogen is still there- just in the
bodies of the living microbes and they can out compete the plants for N.

Adding material to the surface as mulch slows down the decomposition and most of the
"Feeding frenzy" is going on at the soil surface. This results in N in the soil still
being available to plants.

As far as aerobic vs. anaerobic- plant material or manure buried too deep is where
anaerobic bacterial breakdown happens. The byproducts of this process are plant toxins
(formaldehyde being a major one). Burying it in the top of the soil where gas exchange
happens produces aerobic decomposition. The byproducts of this are plant nutrients.

So, the moral of the story is to bury cover crops, etc. as shallow as possible and use
all the mulch you want.

Alex


From sojournr@missouri.org Mon Jan 31 15:49:53 2000
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: freezing
References: <LYR99013-34710-2000.01.31-04.09.03--cappy#harborside.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34825-2000.01.31-13.31.47--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99136-34862-2000.01.31-15.40.24--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Elizabeth Pike wrote:
> 
> I have a commercial kitchen, but I don't think the extensive red tape
> dealing with the health dept is worth it.  I'd rather grow under cover & eat
> in season.

Hmmm?  I'm a little confused - you mean for your own use (in which case
the health dept. doesn't enter into it) or for market?

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From pike@always-online.com Mon Jan 31 15:53:38 2000
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From: Holly (commercial kitchens)
> Hmmm?  I'm a little confused - you mean for your own use (in which case
> the health dept. doesn't enter into it) or for market?

At our restaurant.

Liz




From pike@always-online.com Mon Jan 31 16:06:36 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Flower seminar in NC
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:07:50 -0500
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One-day seminar covers cut flower production
RALEIGH -- A day-long class focusing on the basics of outdoor cut flower
production and starting a cut flower business will be held from 8 a.m. to 4
p.m. Feb. 19 at the Iredell County Agricultural Center in Statesville.

The class will cover such topics as: which cut flowers perform best in the
Southeast, steps to produce cut flowers, identification and control of the
most common insects and disease, nutritional problems, post-harvest handling
of fresh and dried cut flowers, evaluating marketing options, identifying
production and marketing costs, plant selection, and the basics of flower
drying.

Nationally recognized outdoor cut flower expert Dr. John Dole of Oklahoma
State University is the featured speaker.

The class is sponsored by the N.C. Commercial Flower Growers' Association
and the Association of Specialty Cut Flowers. Participants can earn one hour
of N.C. Pesticide Continuing Certification Credit by taking the class.

Registration prior to Feb. 10 is $50 for the first person of a firm and $35
for each additional person. After the early deadline, registration is $65
for each person. Cost includes all handouts, refreshments and lunch.

For information or a registration form, contact the N.C. Commercial Flower
Growers' Association at (919) 779-4618, or Michele Roberts, marketing
specialist, Marketing Division, N.C. Department of Agriculture and Consumer
Services at (919) 733-7887.


Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, NC



From demullis@InfoAve.Net Mon Jan 31 16:07:46 2000
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:10:31 -0500
From: Dean Mullis <demullis@InfoAve.Net>
Subject: Staw mulch - round bales
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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I am new to the list and think is great!
I started using round bales of either oat or wheat straw 2 years ago and really like it.
In wide-spaced crops like pumpkins, you can roll the bales out along either side of the row and tuck the straw under the plants with a fork.  More
closely spaced crops require spread by hand and fork but, the straw from the round bales spread much easier since it is rolled up rather than
chopped and compacted into "book" as in square bales.
The drawback to round bales handling them.  They can be stored outside with no major damage.  I buy mine in June during harvest season for next
year's use.  They cost $10-12 for a 4'X4' bale.  Which is approximately 10-12 square bales.

Dean Mullis
Laughing Owl Farm
Richfield, NC


From sojournr@missouri.org Mon Jan 31 16:25:07 2000
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From: Sojourner <sojournr@missouri.org>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Green manure and mulch, was Re: Horse manure/sawdust
References: <LYR98963-34584-2000.01.30-16.49.16--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99215-34617-2000.01.30-19.52.21--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99136-34733-2000.01.31-08.12.02--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98943-34774-2000.01.31-11.02.52--waldenfarm#sprintmail.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99136-34866-2000.01.31-15.49.21--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Alex McGregor wrote:
> 
> Sojourner wrote:
> 
> > The belief that sawdust will "tie up the nitrogen" in your soil is a
> > myth based on studies done with sawdust that had been "worked in" to the
> > soil - e.g., was decomposing (or rather not) in anaerobic conditions.
> >
> > Spreading sawdust on TOP of your soil will not cause a nitrogen
> > deficiency.  Aerobic decomposition, taking place in the presence of
> > oxygen (which is what goes on when you surface spread) is a whole
> > 'nother animal than anaerobic.
> 
> It is true that adding any dead plant material to the soil
> will "tie up" the nitrogen.  This means that the nitrogen
> is used by the population explosion of the soil life that
> happens when you add a lot of "food" for them. The nitrogen
> is still there- just in the bodies of the living microbes and
> they can out compete the plants for N.

I THINK you're agreeing with me?  Under these circumstances the microbes
are utilizing nitrogen from the air, and not from the soil.  So they're
not "tying up" SOIL nitrogen, which is what most people worry about. 
And since our atmosphere is, what, 70%?  Nitrogen, they're not really
outcompeting plant life for airborne Nitrogen, either.

Then, as the little soil buggers die off and their tiny little bodies
rot, extra nitrogen that would otherwise have remained unfixed
(free-floating in the atmosphere) is added to the soil.

Your plants will thank you for this, really they will, by giving you
better yields of healthier looking veggies.  This is an ongoing,
sustainable process - doesn't happen overnight, like with chemical
fertilizers.  But unlike chemical fertilizers (which are about the
equivalent of a nuclear bomb as far as soil life is concerned) it not
only increases your soil fertility but also improves tilth and soil
composition as well.

> Adding material to the surface as mulch slows down the
> decomposition and most of the "Feeding frenzy" is going on
> at the soil surface. This results in N in the soil still
> being available to plants.

Right.

> As far as aerobic vs. anaerobic- plant material or manure
> buried too deep is where anaerobic bacterial breakdown
> happens. The byproducts of this process are plant toxins
> (formaldehyde being a major one).

Right.  20 and 30 years ago it was common for garden books to recommend
digging down a foot or two, moving the top layer of soil from the next
trench to the bottom of the first trench so you were completely turning
upside down your garden area soil.  This would bury all organic matter
from the top layers at the bottom of these trenches.  In my Ohio clay
soil, the stuff would never rot - I'd come along the following year and
start digging again, and there it was, all the good stuff I'd buried
last year, still unrotted and smelly to boot.  Must have been the
formaldehyde.

> Burying it in the top of the soil where gas exchange happens
> produces aerobic decomposition. The byproducts of this are
> plant nutrients.
> 
> So, the moral of the story is to bury cover crops, etc. as
> shallow as possible and use all the mulch you want.

Right.  I actually don't "till in" any more, I only till where I have to
plant and that basically so I can get at the dirt.  I have used
buckwheat to improve really bad heavy clay soil (there are better cover
crops but none that I know of that will do as well as buckwheat will in
heavy compacted clay).  Typically I plant in early spring, let it go to
seed, and mow it where it stands.  It reseeds itself this way.  You can
do this for at least 2 crops in Ohio, I think I occasionally got 3 this
way.  I can definitely get at least 3 down here in MO (although my soil
here is so much better that I don't really need the buckwheat).  The
trick is to mow your LAST buckwheat crop before it sets seed if you
don't want it to self-seed again, say if you want to put in winter rye
as a winter cover crop.  If you cultivate at all, I wouldn't cultivate
more than the top 2" or 3" of soil.  Anything more than that and you're
just wasting all that nice humus the buckwheat grew for you.

I haven't decided how I'm going to handle things now that I'm moving
from a small garden (my last garden was around 20x40 with half fallow
every year in cover crops) first to a mid-sized garden (50x60 or so) and
then hopefully to a market garden.

In my home garden I've always used raised beds in permanent enclosures,
but that's a bit much for a larger garden.  This year I'll just sow
white dutch clover, plant in blocks, and mulch heavily with sawdust, and
see how it goes.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From glenn@smallfarms.com Mon Jan 31 16:29:00 2000
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Periodicals
References: <LYR98963-34744-2000.01.31-09.27.24--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99061-34752-2000.01.31-10.14.39--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34767-2000.01.31-10.47.07--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99029-34781-2000.01.31-11.14.22--glenn#smallfarms.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Have a look at Small Farm Today magazine.  

(800) 633-2535.  
www.smallfarmtoday.com
e mail:  smallfarm@socket.net
Subscriptions begin at $21.00/year.

This magazine has excellent feature articles, a very complete calendar
of events, and several other sections.  The publisher's page is a must
read.

glenn
Buy from the Farmer
http://www.smallfarms.com

From bbrocious@hotmail.com Mon Jan 31 16:37:18 2000
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From: "Bob Brocious" <bbrocious@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Periodicals
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Lynn,
Please send a sample to:
Bob Brocious
179 Vernon Avenue
Louisville, KY  40206

Thank you!
Bob
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From pike@always-online.com Mon Jan 31 16:44:24 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <B4BAED7C.10A5%llami@teleport.com> <LYR99119-34776-2000.01.31-11.06.15--grandad#grandadsfarm.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34784-2000.01.31-11.23.02--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Horsepower-4 legged kind
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From: Grandad <grandad@grandadsfarm.com>
> Even on their farms of 40 to 80 acres they end up
> working hitches of 6 and 8 horses, not because they need that
> much draft power but because they need to work the horses to
> keep them in training and condition.  They say that it is a
> battle to keep a team in condition.  You have to work them to
> keep them in shape so that you can work them.

I'm a horsey person, so extra work isn't a problem.  1-2 horses could take
care of 6-10 acres, right?  I have to work to keep in shape to work also-not
a problem for me or horses (but does sound contradictory doesn't it ; } ).
As Beth said, I'm interested in them as a "draw", too.

Beth, would hitching them be easier (less heavy) than tractor implements?  I
can't move our plows, equipment, etc.--too heavy!

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, NC


From patters@erols.com Mon Jan 31 17:02:23 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>,
 rbfarr@erols.com
From: Ted Patterson <patters@erols.com>
Subject: Re: U-Bar


At 10:33 AM -0500 1/31/0, Robert Farr wrote:
>I've been looking for a broad fork for some time.
>Where can I find one - an affordable one (no Smith and Hawken for me),
>that is!

If you want to save $20, you might also look at the U-bar [model LB101]
sold by Lee Valley, at  1-800-871-8158 and http://www.leevalley.com
Theirs is all-metal and weighs nearly 20 lbs.
Nevertheless, it works fine, and builds strong muscles twelve ways.
-Ted



From gutierrez-lagatta@home.com Mon Jan 31 17:03:50 2000
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:3:45
Subject: Re: Farming Income Tax Preparation
To: market-farming
From: "Adriana Gutierrez" <gutierrez-lagatta@home.com>


Thanks all for your replies.  It sounds like a Quicken/Turbotax combination 
is the way to go unless you're numbers-impaired, which fortunately I'm not. 
 However I AM time-impaired.

Turbotax has been great for household taxes, I've used it and it's cousin 
MacinTax for years, except for one year that I drifted over to Kiplinger 
and greatly regretted it.

I take it there's no need to go with Quick Books for the day-to-day 
bookkeeping?

Adriana

From organic@morgan.net Mon Jan 31 17:08:38 2000
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Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta wrote:

> .
> How many of you do your own and how many use a tax professional?
>

I use Turbo Tax Home & Business.  It will walk you through all of the farm and personal
items.
Publication 225 Farmer's Tax Guide from IRS can be a big help as well.
Chuck Massey
Read-Massey Organic Farm
Sunset, TX




From rbfarr@erols.com Mon Jan 31 17:14:31 2000
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: freezing
References: <LYR99013-34710-2000.01.31-04.09.03--cappy#harborside.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34825-2000.01.31-13.31.47--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99215-34862-2000.01.31-15.40.24--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Liz:

Because I make and sell hot sauce - the raison d'etre for my farm - I
have to have a commercial kitchen.

Right now, I'm debating with the Food Safety folks whether my product is
an acidified product, thus requiring an FDA review, or a non-acidified
product, thus being exempt.

I'm hoping for the "exempt"!  The FDA, I'm sure, is a whole, 'nuther
story -

R.



From fullcircle@jps.net Mon Jan 31 17:19:55 2000
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:19:23 -0800
To: market-farming post <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: FW: Farm-to-table Conference




Stolen from Sanet for all you in the Northwest.  Looks like a really great
conference.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Steven Garrett [ mailto:sgarrett@wsu.edu <mailto:sgarrett@wsu.edu> ]
>Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 12:15 PM
>To: san@nal.usda.gov
>Cc: beusc@wsu.edu
>Subject: Farm-to-table Conference
>
>
>Andy,
>Please post this to sanet
>
>On March 24-26 a unique and exciting conference on community-based food and
>farm systems will take place in Olympia, WA (60 miles south of Seattle).
>This conference entitled, "Farm to Table: Growing Healthy Foodsheds and
>Community," is being sponsored by Washington State University Cooperative
>Extension, the Cascade Harvest Coalition, and the Sustainable Agriculture
>Program at the Washington State
>Department of Agriculture.
>
>This unique forum will feature sessions on farmland preservation,
>sustainable farming practices, consumer food decisions, community-based
>marketing, the globalization of food systems, faith-based connections to the
>food system, community-based food processing, sustainable local "foodsheds",
>urban agriculture, connections between the farming and
>culinary community, and much more.
>
>Keynote speakers for this conference include: Wes Jackson, "The Need of
>Being Versed in Country Things;" Joan Dye Gussow, "Eating Locally: What,
>When and Why?;" Chef Tom French, "Making a Difference: Building Community
>Strength Through Healthy Food and Farm Systems;" Fred Kirschenmann, "Feeding
>the Village First: Barriers and Opportunities;" Michael Ableman, "Twenty
>Years on an Urban Farm: Lessons from the Past, Models for the Future;" and a
>combined session with Jack Kloppenburg and Bill
>Heffernan, "Global Food-Local Food: Eating to Sustain Farms and Communities
>in
>the 21st Century.
>
>You are invited to participate in what should be a unique and timely
>conference
>to discuss and work on issues related to the creation of sustainable,
>healthy,
>community-based farm and food systems. Complete information about all
>sessions, registration information and forms, etc. is available on the
>worldwide web at:
>http://foodfarm.wsu.edu/farmtotable <http://foodfarm.wsu.edu/farmtotable>
>Time is limited to register, so don't
>delay. And, please spread the word about this exciting conference to your
>friends and associates. It will be an event to remember.
>
>
>
>
>To Unsubscribe:  Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command
>"unsubscribe sanet-mg".  If you receive the digest format, use the command
>"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest".
>To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command
>"subscribe sanet-mg-digest".
>
>All messages to sanet-mg are archived at:
>http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail
>

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From marc@aculink.net Mon Jan 31 17:33:41 2000
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1001 Ways to Make Market Sales Sizzle!
Picked up a post card about this new book by Eric Gibson
(Sell What You Sow).  There's no date on it so I don't know
how dated it might be.  Maybe you all know about it
already.  I'm sending the post card in for pre-publication
offer.  

The address is:

New World Publishing
11543 Quartz Dr. #1
Auburn, CA  95602

Includes:
Latest tips and trends
Farmers/Sellers section on best products, display ideas,
merchandising tips and selling ideas/styles
Managers info on starting and promoting the market, key
issues (shoudl you allow crafts, market mix) and resources

Marcy Nameth
SE Colorado

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<< I've been looking for a broad fork for some time.  >>

Robert,
    A.M. Leonard catalogue has a great casted broad fork for around $80.00 
delivered.  It is great for digging through compost, straw, etc.  A little 
pricey, but very well made and a dream to use (800) 543-8955.

Art Biggert
Ocean Sky Farm
Bainbridge Island, WA

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From: SCook21809@aol.com
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:59:29 EST
Subject: Re:Sawdust as Mulch:
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Friends,
    I have been reading the posts about using sawdust\woodchips as a mulch 
and feel obliged to temper the advice being offered.  In other words, 
"WARNING! Proceed with caution."  
    I agree that sawdust and woodchips on the soil surface is much better 
than turning it into the soil.  Soil micro-organisms can be loosely grouped 
into two families, bacteria and fungi.  Only aerobic soil bacteria have been 
shown to bind atmospheric nitrogen symbiotically in the presence certain 
legume root exudates.  Aerobic bacteria are incapable of using the complex 
carbohydrates and lignins found in saw dust and wood chips as a food source.  
They require simpler sugars and carbohydrates from sources like straw, crop 
residues, compost and root exudates.
    Fungi on the other hand, are very capable of dissolving the double and 
triple bonds that hold complex carbohydrates together.  Some fungi can 
establish a symbiotic relationship with roots to exchange nutrients such as 
boron, nitrogen, calcium, etc., that they transport from great distances to 
the plant and trade them for root exudates.  However, I am not aware of any 
soil or composting fungi capable of binding atmospheric nitrogen. 
    In the Maritime northwest cedar chips are another threat to soil life 
because it gives off a compound that kills bacteria and worms which is why 
cedar doesn't rot.  I suspect that locust chips may have a similar effect.  
But I do not know.  A very reliable authority on these questions is Dr. 
Ingham at www.soilfoodweb.com.  
    My experience with wood chips and sawdust as a mulch is that they are 
helpful for established perennial plantings.  But they can have grave 
consequences on annual crops.  Use discretion, before you mulch your whole 
growing operation with wood chips or sawdust.

Art Biggert
Ocean Sky Farm
Bainbridge Island, WA

From flowers@rt66.com Mon Jan 31 18:15:28 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: Staw mulch - round bales


might consider rolling them out and making transplant spaces within mulch
layer ...like using a grown in place mulch... like vetch under cut with a
onion knife then transplanted through ususally used for tomatoes 

martin
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow

5059898337 office
5057578337 farm april/november
5059203421 cell



From bhfarm@accel.net Mon Jan 31 18:19:12 2000
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References: <LYR98944-34272-2000.01.29-00.00.47--bhfarm#accel.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: pvc etc. & html
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:32:39 -0500
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hi list!
just had a fabulous time at the guelph conference & wanted to thank all the
people Especially the Amercian supporters who braved the drive!!!!!  for
coming out!!!

the PVC issue-it breaks down in sunlight, ALSO, it will crack when expsoed
to hot water if it is used for ground heating etc. If you will be using it
for ground source heat in cold frames/greenhouses, GET the BETTER more
Expensive stuff- they come in different grades-the sheapest is made flat &
then rolled to a round , so u have a seam that may split-you won't know it
until your roots all rot underground from all the extra hot water!! sogy
roots & mold if not worse-there is of course Kitec Cable(made to withstand
extreme heat & water & exposure), but it may be prihibitve for most of us
little growers- The Sunlight exposure could be solved with some Outdoor
Grade Insulation-any large home building supplier will have this stuff-it
can be molded around the pipe & also helps with insulation & frost- you have
to tell them Specifically what it will be for thought-again many types out
there-don't go cheap it may cost you the farm-for lack of better words.

hope this helps- it was one thing i learned this weekend!

to the folks still sending long message attachments & html format-PLEASE for
the sake of us out in rural northlands, could you cut the posts & do not
send html.
1- hit reply then highlight all the stuff you DO NOT wantt o send the
list-then you simply hit CUT & voila- all the extra is gone-then put in what
u want where u want it.
2-go to the Tools bar, then to the Options bar, then to the Send bar-where
it says html or plain, please hit PLAIN text- many on this list do not have
pentium 2 etc or a computer that has html format so all thatis seen is an
extra 2-3 pages worth of jibberish-thanks a lot
hope this does not offend anyone, BUT we have a very short time on the net
for a very large amount of money here-
thanks a lot
zalia
bh organic farm & maple syrup
bhfarm@accel.net


>


From pike@always-online.com Mon Jan 31 18:20:56 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-34899-2000.01.31-17.19.54--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Farm-to-table Conference
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One of these days, I'm sneaking out west!  You folks have all the good
opportunities!

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, NC


From bhfarm@accel.net Mon Jan 31 18:27:12 2000
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From: bhfarm@accel.net (BHFarm)
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: seeders
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:40:48 -0500
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hi all
i need help with a couple of things please:
what type of seeder do you use in a greenhouse setting when you have
seedlings to start for 4 acres of outdoor transplanting?
what type do u use if you have 5 acres of outdoor planting that is direct &
mostly small seeds-we have looked at everything from single drive behind
seeders for tractors to large wide seeders that asre used for cash crops &
converting them to small seeds-help please!
we do not have the money for the guessing game we are playing & it is our
first BIG season for the fileds after 3 years of cover crops & composting to
prepare former gravel pit soil!
zalia
bhfarm@accel.net
certified organic maple syrup & veggies!
zone 5 ontario


From fullcircle@jps.net Mon Jan 31 18:31:34 2000
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From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Reminder du jour


Hi all,

Wow, the list is busy!  About 200 messges on Saturday and Sunday alone.
Unfortunately this may be overwhelming to some of the very friends we're
trying to keep.

Here are some things that can help.

Use snips - some of you are getting much better at this.  :-)

If you have an direct, personal question of someone, ie where's your farm?
or do you know so-and-so?,  or a one-line "me, too" reply, please post it
to the individual not the list.

Check the subject line before you hit send.  If the subject is general ie
production methods and your reply is either specific  ie biodynamic
production methods  OR your picking up on a topic change  ie where to get
U-bars,  Please change the subject head to reflect that.   for instance
Production methods - Biodynamic solutions   or U-bar sources.

In the first two instances, the volumn and number of posts can be
decreased.  In the third, those folks who are interested in the thread can
read it; those not can delete without opening it.

Thanks to all of you for making this the most useful and dynamic list.

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From pike@always-online.com Mon Jan 31 18:42:07 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-34893-2000.01.31-17.02.22--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: U-Bar
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:43:38 -0500
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I use Eliot Coleman's from Johnny's.  A bit more expensive, but I like the
wood handles & it appears wider (24") than Lee Valley's.  I can't find the
one in AM Leonards.  It's my all time favorite tool!  I find it works
better, on my hardpack clay, if I used it 2 days after a rain.  In my good
soil, I can use it anytime & it really is a pleasure to use.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, NC




From dbenhart@essex1.com Mon Jan 31 18:55:18 2000
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From: dbenhart@essex1.com (David Benhart)
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: The New Farmers Market Book
References: <LYR98963-34744-2000.01.31-09.27.24--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99061-34752-2000.01.31-10.14.39--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34767-2000.01.31-10.47.07--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99029-34781-2000.01.31-11.14.22--glenn#smallfarms.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99061-34881-2000.01.31-16.28.59--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99132-34903-2000.01.31-17.33.39--dbenhart#essex1.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Hi all
 I have this book     1994 is the date, very basic but for me a nice primer for someone
like me that is just starting.
 Dave Benhart
 Shore Acres Greenhouse

Marc & Marcy wrote:

> 1001 Ways to Make Market Sales Sizzle!
> Picked up a post card about this new book by Eric Gibson
> (Sell What You Sow).  There's no date on it so I don't know
> how dated it might be.  Maybe you all know about it
> already.  I'm sending the post card in for pre-publication
> offer.
>
> The address is:
>
> New World Publishing
> 11543 Quartz Dr. #1
> Auburn, CA  95602
>
> Includes:
> Latest tips and trends
> Farmers/Sellers section on best products, display ideas,
> merchandising tips and selling ideas/styles
> Managers info on starting and promoting the market, key
> issues (shoudl you allow crafts, market mix) and resources
>
> Marcy Nameth
> SE Colorado
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: dbenhart@essex1.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')


From fullcircle@jps.net Mon Jan 31 19:08:12 2000
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:07:40 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Farming Income Tax Preparation


Adrieana et al,

I keep my books using Quickbooks Pro.  My farm chart of accounts breaks
down even finer than the categories on the Schedule F.  But I'm ok with
bookkeeping, but I'm not an accountant.  We hire one.  His fee's deductible
in the following year as a business expense.

If you hire someone, make sure they know from farming.  It's different than
other small businesses.


Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From pike@always-online.com Mon Jan 31 19:16:50 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-34739-2000.01.31-08.43.31--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Horse manure/sawdust
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:15:40 -0500
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Contacted the stable where dd takes riding lessons.  Their manure/sawdust
piles are 3-5 years old.  Now I'm wondering if the nutrients haven't already
leached out & microbial activity deceased.  I could have it tested.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, NC



From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Mon Jan 31 19:24:45 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: U-Bar: brief sourcelist
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:24:43 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
Reply-To: lflondon@mindspring.com
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References: <LYR98963-34893-2000.01.31-17.02.22--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <39662@market-farming>
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On Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:43:38 -0500, "Elizabeth Pike"
<pike@always-online.com> wrote:

>I use Eliot Coleman's from Johnny's.  A bit more expensive, but I like the
>wood handles & it appears wider (24") than Lee Valley's. 

I am not aware of this one. How much does it cost? What is its weight?
Is it still available?

Here's a summary of what I consider the best available, to include the
above:

LLondon:
Peaceful Valley Farm Supply offers a very heavy steel
alloy/non-rusting, tig-welded model which was written 
up in Taunton Press'  "Kitchen Gardener" in an article about the
author's favorite tools.

Peaceful Valley Farm Supply
Toll free: 1-888-784-1722
PO BOx 2209
Grass Valley, Calif., 95945
530-272-4769

ABiggert:
A.M. Leonard catalogue has a great casted broad fork for around $80.00
delivered.  It is great for digging through compost, straw, etc.  A
little pricey, but very well made and a dream to use (800) 543-8955.

Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu


From pike@always-online.com Mon Jan 31 19:41:18 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Ubar
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:42:49 -0500
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Coleman's broadfork link:
http://www.johnnyseeds.com/cgi-local/Minishopsql4.cgi?action=page&adver=othe
r&partnumber=9677

It's $109/$113 depending on where you live.  I'm not sure on weight.  I
liked the width  (24") as I could make 2 passes down my 4' beds.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC



From guldann@ix.netcom.com Mon Jan 31 19:42:43 2000
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From: "Hook Family" <guldann@ix.netcom.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <B4BAED7C.10A5%llami@teleport.com> <LYR99119-34776-2000.01.31-11.06.15--grandad#grandadsfarm.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34784-2000.01.31-11.23.02--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98960-34889-2000.01.31-16.44.24--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Horsepower-4 legged kind
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:46:59 -0800
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The harnesses while heavy are lighter than equipment.  Sean's (business
partner and our horse handler) girl friend is a teamster extraordinaire.
She has had her team since they were pups :) about 13 years.  They are full
sisters approx.11-12.  She is probably 5'4'' and slim although sturdy.  She
is the strongest woman I've met.  I am not weakling (who in farming is) but
I am not close to her.  But we could argue she got that strong being a
teamster (she has a "real" job as well).  So I think you could handle it.
And one horse might be as good as two.  She and her horsey buddies have for
the past two years plowed the field of the other CSA near me, its quite a
sight to watch about 6 teams plowing a field.  Hopefully we can talk them
into plowing our fields. I know I have pictures of the horses on disc,
whether I have any in harness is a question if so I will send you one.
Beth

> Beth, would hitching them be easier (less heavy) than tractor implements?
I
> can't move our plows, equipment, etc.--too heavy!
>
> Liz
> Morningstar Gardens
> Pollocksville, NC
>
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: guldann@ix.netcom.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>


From bennett@frognet.net Mon Jan 31 19:56:01 2000
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From: "D.Bennett" <bennett@frognet.net>
To: <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: carrots and horse manure
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:48:09 -0500
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why can't you plant carrots where there's horse manure?
i've never heard of that one.


From flowers@rt66.com Mon Jan 31 20:02:00 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: seeders



>what type do u use if you have 5 acres of outdoor planting that is direct &
>mostly small seeds-we have looked at everything from single drive behind
>seeders for tractors to large wide seeders that asre used for cash crops &
>converting them to small seeds


best we've found are planet juniors for everything from spinach to peas
`about $150-250 each used or bargins at $300 for three on a 3 point hitch bar
new 500 each !
can go 9 1/2 "on centers or 5 1/5 if you use on a double bar
if you have the money buy stanhay 840's belt seeders ~800 each but really
save on skips/seed waste  and can change seed belt w/o tools really cool 

good luck martin

 
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow

5059898337 office
5057578337 farm april/november
5059203421 cell



From pike@always-online.com Mon Jan 31 21:16:57 2000
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References: <LYR98963-34937-2000.01.31-19.56.01--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: carrots and horse manure
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:18:30 -0500
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I've heard & read in numerous texts that it's the excess nitrogen that
encourages extra roots &/or lots of little hairy ones on carrots
planted in recently manured beds or rows.  This can be avoided by
using composted manure on beds/rows well in advance of planting.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC


From pike@always-online.com Mon Jan 31 21:29:06 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Market Associations
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:30:38 -0500
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Does your market have an association for the vendors?  If so, how does
this work & what are the pros & cons?

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC


From cappy@harborside.com Mon Jan 31 21:48:30 2000
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>,
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Reply-To: cappy@harborside.com
References: <LYR98963-34744-2000.01.31-09.27.24--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99061-34752-2000.01.31-10.14.39--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34767-2000.01.31-10.47.07--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99029-34781-2000.01.31-11.14.22--glenn#smallfarms.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99061-34881-2000.01.31-16.28.59--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99013-34903-2000.01.31-17.33.39--cappy#harborside.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Subject: Re: The New Farmers Market Book


Quoting Marc & Marcy <marc@aculink.net>:

> 1001 Ways to Make Market Sales Sizzle!
> Picked up a post card about this new book by Eric 
Gibson
> (Sell What You Sow).  There's no date on it so I 
don't know
> how dated it might be.  Maybe you all know about it
> already.  I'm sending the post card in for pre-
publication
> offer.
>
> The address is:
>
> New World Publishing
> 11543 Quartz Dr. #1
> Auburn, CA  95602
>
> Includes:
> Latest tips and trends
> Farmers/Sellers section on best products, display 
ideas,
> merchandising tips and selling ideas/styles
> Managers info on starting and promoting the market, 
key
> issues (shoudl you allow crafts, market mix) and 
resources
>
> Marcy Nameth
> SE Colorado
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: 
cappy@harborside.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
>
> Hi Everyone,

Just received a letter and the post card from Eric 
Gibson today.  Looks like its going to be a spring 
release.  He's in the process now of selling ad space 
in the book.

I'm excited and delighted about this book.  He 
contacted me last year on some marketing ideas and is 
planning to use my quotes. What a thrill.  He's really 
put in a lot of research and hard work into this book.
Sounds like a good one.

He's also going to be a featured speaker at the Feb. 
28. 29 marketing conference at Pike Place Market in 
Seattle.
This is coordinated by the Washington Association of 
Farmers' Markets.

Looks like about 200 people will be attending.

Another good book out there is:  "Dynamic Farmers' 
Marketing - A Guide to Successfully Selling Your 
Farmer's Market Products"
by Jeff Ishee

I've got it listed on my website  
(www.bumpercropmarketing.com) or you can send for a 
copy directly from Jeff at

Bittersweet Farmstead
PO bos 52
Middlebrook, VA  24459    540  886-8477


Cappy Tosetti
on the Oregon coast

www.bumpercropmarketing.com  


From swtgrssfrm@nls.net Mon Jan 31 21:59:06 2000
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Subject: Re: Horsepower-4 legged kind
References: <B4BAED7C.10A5%llami@teleport.com> <LYR99119-34776-2000.01.31-11.06.15--grandad#grandadsfarm.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34784-2000.01.31-11.23.02--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98960-34889-2000.01.31-16.44.24--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR100892-34936-2000.01.31-19.42.43--swtgrssfrm#nls.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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>
> >Liz,

  I have just joined this list and have enjoyed this thread about horses since I am a
horse lover and have been trying to talk my husband into getting a pair of draft horses.
(We have riding already and he has heard all too often about how I just have to have such
and such horse so he is not falling for it.)  If you were wanting a pair of horses to do a
small amount of work but also to have as a novelty I wonder how a pair of draft type
miniatures would do?  Miniature horses are bred for different body types and there are
some specifically bred for a draft horse build in miniature.  I know a regular build mini
can pull a cart with 2 adults in it.  I am not sure the physical capabilites are for the
draft type but wouldn't that be a attention getter to see a pair of those at work in your
garden.  Because of their size they are easier to handle too.  We had a mini not long ago
and eveyone who came to the farm loved him.. He was quite a ham too.
Sue Steiner
Sweetgrass Farm
Wadsworth, Oh.

>
>
> ---
>


From bennett@frognet.net Mon Jan 31 22:44:06 2000
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From: "D.Bennett" <bennett@frognet.net>
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Subject: Re: Horsepower-4 legged kind
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 22:36:12 -0500
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I believe in the case of small farm wanting small horse - the answer would
be Halflingers.  They are built like draft horses, but only get about 54 in.
tall.  They are real people lovers and ride real good too.
And Sue, there are lots of Halflingers up around your area too. :-)
Probably not 50 miles from you there's an auction by their club a couple of
times per year.  But, to save me I can't think of the name of the town where
the auction is held.  Sorry.
    Donna - near Marietta, Ohio - with Paint horses and tempted to get a
pair of Halflingers or drafts and cross with my Paints. :-)

>horse lover and have been trying to talk my husband into getting a pair of
draft horses.
>(We have riding already and he has heard all too often about how I just
have to have such
>and such horse so he is not falling for it.)  If you were wanting a pair of
horses to do a
>small amount of work but also to have as a novelty I wonder how a pair of
draft type
>miniatures would do?  Miniature horses are bred for different body types
and there are
>some specifically bred for a draft horse build in miniature.  I know a
regular build mini
>can pull a cart with 2 adults in it.  I am not sure the physical
capabilites are for the
>draft type but wouldn't that be a attention getter to see a pair of those
at work in your



From grandad@grandadsfarm.com Mon Jan 31 23:01:54 2000
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> 1-2 horses could take
> care of 6-10 acres, right? 

	Yeah, 4 acres each for pasture.  Do you have other acres that
you are going to garden on?
-- 
From mailto:grandad@grandadsfarm.com and 
the Home of Grandad's Farm Magazine 
in the beautiful suburbs of Columbia, Missouri
http://www.grandadsfarm.com/

From maroc@islandnet.com Mon Jan 31 23:07:32 2000
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To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: maroc@islandnet.com (Maroc)
Subject: guard dogs


The Komondors sound like close relatives of the Great Pyrennes.  The
solution to that matted coat is to get a half-breed.  Right now we have a a
male whose mother was a purebred GP.  He's 14 months old and weighs about
125 pounds, so he is quite fast and agile.  His coat is less dense than a
purbred, very coarse outer hair less than three inches long with dense mat
of fur underneath.  He is nearly all white and is the most self-cleaning
dog we've ever had around.  Perhaps you're misunderstanding your Komondor
in your contest about who is the alpha dog.  He knows his job (or thinks he
does) and is not really interest in your advice.  He likely thinks you
should look after your own work and leave him to his.

Don Maroc
Vancouver Island, Canada



From BBGREGSON@cs.com Mon Jan 31 23:19:04 2000
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 23:19:19 EST
Subject: Re: Tying up soil nitrogen (was Re: Horse manure/sawdust)
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Don't know about the chemistry involved with adding fresh grass clippings as 
mulch, but our experience here with our cool ground is that such clippings 
are powerful stimulators of things like summer squash.  It may be the heat it 
generates.  Whatever, it has always been positive.
Bob Gregson, Island Meadow Farm, Vashon WA

From sojournr@missouri.org Mon Jan 31 23:25:02 2000
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BBGREGSON@cs.com wrote:
> 
> Don't know about the chemistry involved with adding fresh grass clippings as
> mulch, but our experience here with our cool ground is that such clippings
> are powerful stimulators of things like summer squash.  It may be the heat it
> generates.  Whatever, it has always been positive.

Grass clippings have a powerful lot of nitrogen in them.  Guaranteed
they're releasing a whole lot of nitrogen as they decay - there's
definitely no problem with grass clippings "tying up" soil nitrogen.

The only problem I've ever had with them is the matting, which I get
around by mixing them with something to break up the clumps.  Shredded
paper or sawdust are what I have generally used in the past.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From sojournr@missouri.org Mon Jan 31 23:38:07 2000
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SCook21809@aol.com wrote:
> 
> My experience with wood chips and sawdust as a mulch is that they are
> helpful for established perennial plantings.  But they can have grave
> consequences on annual crops. 

What grave consequences are you concerned about?  This is just too vague
to have much effectiveness as a warning.  Just what are you warning
against?  If its helpful for perenials, what is your concern with it
when using it in the garden on your annuals?  Surely any problems it
might cause would be MORE severe for a plant subjected to it year after
year.

> Use discretion, before you mulch your whole
> growing operation with wood chips or sawdust.

Or any other substance, for that matter.  I have used straw and hay as
mulch extensively over the years, and have never had a problem with it,
but a friend of mine reports that they tried to use it in a market
garden once and were over run by weeds.  I suspect that they may have
spread it too thinly; I can't really say, I'm just making a wild guess
because their experience was so diametrically opposed to my own.  On the
other hand, I have to admit its possible I've just been lucky over the
years to somehow miss getting all this weedy straw and hay I keep
hearing about.  I don't think so but I can't prove its otherwise.

I'm a big fan of deep mulching.  Straw and hay not being an option where
I live now (it's quite expensive) I'm going to move to using plain
sawdust this year, a substance I have heretofore used only when mixed
with grass clippings.  I'll happily serve as a test case, since I could
tell you from now to kingdom come that someone I know has used sawdust
and had no problem and none of us would be the wiser.  I'm a little too
rushed for time to to a direct half 'n half split, but I'll tell you
what, I'll set aside at least a small section that I'll leave unmulched
and we'll compare the results between the sawdusted sections and the
unmulched.  Probably not as scientific as it ought to be, but that's the
best I can do.  I'll be lucky if I can manage that much, given that I'm
currently building a house, but hopefully I can at LEAST do that much. 
If I manage to get any garden in at all, I'll give it my best shot.

For what its worth, I know a LOT of people who use the sawdust out of
their chicken coops directly on their garden and have never had a
problem.  Granted, what you get out of a chicken coop has a whole lot of
high nitrogen chicken manure in it.  We'll just have to see.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

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Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 00:02:42 -0500 (EST)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@metalab.unc.edu>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: We need to put you guys to work :-) Was: Re: guard dogs
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On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Maroc wrote:

<great post about Komondor dogs>

> Don Maroc
> Vancouver Island, Canada

I"ve noticed that the many incredible threads that have evolved 
in market-farming have brought out much basic and refined information.

What's the possibility that a "designated spokesman" for each thread
might be willing to put together a little proto-faq on some of these
topics? A faq on recommended dog breeds for guarding livestock
and warding off predators and deer on the market farm might be really
useful. It could be updated on an ongoing basis.

I'd be happy to set up a bunch of web resources to help this along -
one being a files upload area to stash the various documents as they
evolve. I am thinking of a new website
http://metalab.unc.edu/market-farming to house all this stuff.
(anyone interested in become a MetaLab content provider and sharing 
access to this URL for development purposes let me know).

I have already done a fairly complete hand tool sourcelist to which I will
add all the UBar info recently posted. 

Lots of interesting possibilities (and unlimited work :-) here. This could
also help keep the list on track and threads more organized for ease of
find posts and archive searching. 

Just a thought.

LL 

Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu



From kampy@netins.net Tue Feb 01 00:22:23 2000
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Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:22:55 -0600
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marie Kamphefner <kampy@netins.net>
Subject: Re: Farming Income Tax Preparation
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(snip)

 I drifted over to Kiplinger 
>and greatly regretted it.

Oh NO!  I bought Kiplinger Tax Cut Deluxe this year because we have to do
two states income taxes and they were included.  I used Tax Cut last year
and TurboTax the year before.  I didn't see much difference except in
price.  You have to buy the programs every year, but it's much cheaper than
hiring someone to do the taxes.

Marie Kamphefner
Strawberry Lane Farm


From lebzwin@epix.net Tue Feb 01 12:20:32 2000
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     Our garden is 1.75 acres, with almost a half of that in permanent
raised beds. Initially, I plowed the garden (not the 8-10' tractor
paths) with a 16 horse diesel Kubota, using a one bottom plow. A 10
horse BCS tiller was used to level and smooth it out. The raised beds
are now  mostly prepared with a double-wide digging fork to get  them
ready for the season. Of course, over the past few years I have taken
out tons of rocks by hand.
      Since the rocks have been and are still being taken out of the
ground, I can zip through the larger beds with the tiller in a higher
gear. Plus I like the idea of a quick till in the upper two inches
rather than trying to till deeply every year.      Getting back to the
double digger, after just a year of preparation, the soil responds well
to the 1. aeration due to  the dd's tines and to 2. the just slightly
turning over, rather than completely turning over of the soil.
The tractor was used just to initially turn the sod over, and since then
is used only to bring amendments to the garden. The front end loader,
though, is the greatest invention in the world- it is used for turning
over compost.



From swtgrssfrm@nls.net Tue Feb 01 12:27:00 2000
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I have been looking for a source for a soybean variety that has 3
lipoxygenase enzymes removed which causes the bean not to have a beany
taste.  This variety I am told makes very good soymilk.  It is called
'Laura'.  Does anyone have any experience with this?  Thank you,
Sue Steiner
Sweetgrass Farm
Wadsworth, Oh.


From sojournr@missouri.org Tue Feb 01 12:27:40 2000
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SCook21809@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Only aerobic soil bacteria have been shown to bind
> atmospheric nitrogen symbiotically in the presence
> certain legume root exudates.  Aerobic bacteria are
> incapable of using the complex carbohydrates and lignins
> found in saw dust and wood chips as a food source.
> They require simpler sugars and carbohydrates from sources
> like straw, crop residues, compost and root exudates.

OK, I had to go look this up, but there are in fact several microbes
involved in decomposition that can and do break down the lignins in wood
and sawdust.  Two such are Azobacter and azospirillium. I'm pretty sure
there are others but don't remember what they are off the top of my
head.  Azobacter, at least, I should've remembered.  Once upon a time I
had more details at my fingertips, but that was then and this is now.

At any rate, azobacter is a free-floating nitrogen fixer (e.g., its not
a typical nitrogen fixer like you would find in root nodules) that most
likely works with various fungi and other microbes to break down the
lignins and cellulose in something like sawdust or wood chips.  Straw,
btw, is also high in lignins but has a higher proportion of cellulose to
lignin than does sawdust.  Or so I've read and that does seem to match
up with hazy memories about this.

So there are in fact microbes other than the aerobic bacteria you are
talking about above that perform this function, AND that can (and do)
breakdown sawdust.  Again, I ask people to consider an undisturbed
forest floor.  What do we see?  Leaves, twigs, branches, bark, wood,
mostly, all of which breaks down quite nicely and the trees and
understory grow just fine.  All plants require some nitrogen, so where,
in the absence of cover crops and nitrogen fixing legumes, is it coming
from?  Mycorrhiza (a class of fungi that fix nitrogen) and microbes like
azobacter.

This from the Microrrhiza web pages at:

http://mycorrhiza.ag.utk.edu/mycor.htm

"Ericoid and EM have a special role in the mineralization of nitrogen.
Most plant litter entering the soil has a high C:N ratio and is rich in
lignin and tannins. Only a few mycorrhizal fungi can mobilize nutrients
from these primary sources. However, a wide range of ericoid and EM
fungi can obtain nitrogen and other nutrients from secondary sources of
organic matter such as dead microbial biomass. A wide range of
hydrolytic and oxidative enzymes capable of depolymerizing organic
nitrogen have been demonstrated."

In a healthy soil system, there is in fact an awful lot of nitrogen
fixing going on that is NOT purely dependent on legumes and their root
nodules, and is not "robbing" the soil of nitrogen.  It's PUTTING it
there.  Slowly, to be sure.

Why then, you may ask, and well you may, does conventional knowledge
insist otherwise?  Well, think about it - in the last 30 to 50 years,
what soils have been being studied?  Well, agricultural soils.  And how
have agricultural soils been treated in that time period? With heavy
applications of chemical fertilizers, anti-fungals, and pesticides.  So
just how accurate a picture of soil life does this give us?

The answer is, not very.  It's like studying the land directly around
Chernobyl to get an idea of biological diversity in Russia.  Nitrites
and other agricultural products and byproducts are known (now) to have
severe deletorious effects on the natural flora and fauna in the soil. 
When you kill off the "bad" fungi you are killing off the "good" fungi
as well, as well as entire classes of microbes and protozoa that
interact with and/or feed on them.  I've seen estimates of soil life in
soil from a conventional farm at something like 1,000 to 10,000 per
teaspoon; it's 10 million for healthy soil that has not been subjected
to a constant barrage of pesticides, fungicides, and chemical
fertilizers.

It's only been in about the last 10 years that any serious work (or that
work being done has been taken seriously) on soil life.  THIS is the
reason that NPK doesn't work the way agricultural scientists insist it
ought; chemical fertilizers (of which 60 to 80% of the nitrogen is
actually wasted because it can't be utilized - there isn't enough soil
life to take it up and store it!) kill microbial soil life.  This has
been known for over 40 years; in fact, one of the early pioneers in the
development of chemical fertilizers recanted later in life - his further
research was showing that microbial and fungal agents were much, much
more active in overall soil health than had previously been suspected. 
But by that time the petroleum industry was making a looooot of money
off of chemical fertilizers, and a lot of people had a vested interest
in supporting the new status quo; so he and others like him were ignored
and often even quietly ridiculed for their "crackpot ideas".

Because of the fact that by and large it has been already-unhealthy soil
systems that have been getting studied, microbes like azobacter, which
is seldom found in chemically abused soils, have been assigned a much
smaller role in the nitrogen fixing cycle than is their due.  The fact
is that much of the activity and effects of the variously intertwined
microbes and fungi in a healthy (read: not found in conventional
agricultural) soil systems is STILL not fully understood.  This is a
case of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts; when the
argument is made that azobacter doesn't fix "enough" nitrogen to make
the soil "fertile enough", the effects of other bacteria and fungi and
their interactions in a healthy system are being ignored.

We have observable results - back to that forest floor again - that show
that in fact the actions of all these myriad tiny creatures in the soil
DO affect soil fertility, tilth, and soil composition in a positive
way.  Cover cropping, intercropping, and crop rotation, are all methods
of both maintaining soil health AND providing the extra fertility needed
for an unnaturally heavy feeder crop such as corn.

There's more to the whole situation - there are a lot of theories
floating about concerning crops that benefit from microbial nitrogen
fixers versus fungal nitrogen fixers - but it has been shown that if you
avoid planting INTO a sawdust based mulch (e.g., if you are planting in
soil underneath a mulch cover as opposed to planting into the mulch
itself as a medium, which is often done in no-till systems) you are not
going to observe any deletorious effects on a crop, while still gaining
the soil building and moisture conserving benefits of the mulch itself. 
This response is already ridiculously long so I won't go into all that
in any more detail now.  The important point is that sawdust as mulch is
ok; sawdust as a planting medium may be problematic for some crops.

It's true that not all sawdust is equally benign; you mention red cedar
and locust (I assume you mean black locust).  The red cedar may have
some tannins or other components that might cause some problems if you
are applying fresh sawdust;  I can't say about black locust.  Black
WALNUT, on the other hand, should be avoided, be he alive or be he dead,
because it contains significant growth inhibitors.  I'm told these
growth inhibitors don't affect soybeans, hence the practice lately of
intercropping black walnut groves with soybeans.  But I know these
growth inhibitors affect a lot of other plants, grass being one type in
particular (hence, no black walnuts will be going into my pasture - I'll
have to use something else, like honey locust or willow oak, to get some
light shade out there).

Just about anything else should be OK.  If you're unsure, use only aged
materials.  Sounds like, at 3 to 5 years reported for the original horse
stable sweepings, this would not be a problem for the original poster.

It occurs to me that when I mention that I'm getting sawdust from small,
local sawmills here in the Ozarks that those of you unfamiliar with
places like these might be misunderstanding just what it is I have to
deal with.  What we have here are small sawmills that have been in
operation in the same place for 50 years and more, upwards of 100 years
in some cases, I'm told.  So what we have are big, huge, whopping, YEARS
and YEARS old piles of sawdust.  Mountains of sawdust.

Some of this stuff hasn't been "fresh" in 10 years.  Towards the middle
of some of these piles I imagine it's even older than that.  These piles
are so big that it occurs to me to wonder if I might not be at risk of
burying myself if I were to dig into one incautiously.  (Not really, but
the thought did cross my mind.  Briefly.  Once or twice.)

Some of the mills take a bulldozer and shove it all into a nearby ravine
every few years, but others don't bother (or more likely don't have a
nearby ravine to shove it into).  This is the case at both of the mills
I have visited asking for sawdust.  "Sure, just load it up.", they tell
me.  "How much for a truck load?"  "You mean, how much does it weigh? 
Depends on your truck and how wet it is."  "No, I mean how much do I
have to PAY."  "PAY?  For SAWDUST?  Nothing."  "Well, how much can I
take?"  Moment of shocked silence.  "C'mon over here."  (Stepping to a
window behind the desk).  "See out there?  You can take ALL of it if you
can load it up."  Piles and piles and piles and piles . . .

I imagine the stuff in the center is pretty thoroughly composted, but
the stuff on the outsides is at least aged if not partially composted. 
None of it (except from the newest piles, which I won't be taking) is
fresh by any stretch of the imagination.  It's all oak and pine sawdust
as these mills only deal in oak and pine.  There are other mills that
deal in cedar but I'm not going to any of those.  The oils in pine are
very volatile; they're long gone by the time I'm going to get to it.

Another thing to watch out for, if you are getting your sawdust from a
woodworking shop or industrial setting, is sawdust that has been
contaminated by the chemicals and substances used in finishing wood, and
also sawdust from pressure treated woods.  You do NOT want that in your
garden, a little ground up arsenic-containing wood can really spoil your
day.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

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SCook21809@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Only aerobic soil bacteria have been shown to bind
> atmospheric nitrogen symbiotically in the presence
> certain legume root exudates.  Aerobic bacteria are
> incapable of using the complex carbohydrates and lignins
> found in saw dust and wood chips as a food source.
> They require simpler sugars and carbohydrates from sources
> like straw, crop residues, compost and root exudates.

OK, I had to go look this up, but there are in fact several microbes
involved in decomposition that can and do break down the lignins in wood
and sawdust.  Two such are Azobacter and azospirillium. I'm pretty sure
there are others but don't remember what they are off the top of my
head.  Azobacter, at least, I should've remembered.  Once upon a time I
had more details at my fingertips, but that was then and this is now.

At any rate, azobacter is a free-floating nitrogen fixer (e.g., its not
a typical nitrogen fixer like you would find in root nodules) that most
likely works with various fungi and other microbes to break down the
lignins and cellulose in something like sawdust or wood chips.  Straw,
btw, is also high in lignins but has a higher proportion of cellulose to
lignin than does sawdust.  Or so I've read and that does seem to match
up with hazy memories about this.

So there are in fact microbes other than the aerobic bacteria you are
talking about above that perform this function, AND that can (and do)
breakdown sawdust.  Again, I ask people to consider an undisturbed
forest floor.  What do we see?  Leaves, twigs, branches, bark, wood,
mostly, all of which breaks down quite nicely and the trees and
understory grow just fine.  All plants require some nitrogen, so where,
in the absence of cover crops and nitrogen fixing legumes, is it coming
from?  Mycorrhiza (a class of fungi that fix nitrogen) and microbes like
azobacter.

This from the Microrrhiza web pages at:

http://mycorrhiza.ag.utk.edu/mycor.htm

"Ericoid and EM have a special role in the mineralization of nitrogen.
Most plant litter entering the soil has a high C:N ratio and is rich in
lignin and tannins. Only a few mycorrhizal fungi can mobilize nutrients
from these primary sources. However, a wide range of ericoid and EM
fungi can obtain nitrogen and other nutrients from secondary sources of
organic matter such as dead microbial biomass. A wide range of
hydrolytic and oxidative enzymes capable of depolymerizing organic
nitrogen have been demonstrated."

In a healthy soil system, there is in fact an awful lot of nitrogen
fixing going on that is NOT purely dependent on legumes and their root
nodules, and is not "robbing" the soil of nitrogen.  It's PUTTING it
there.  Slowly, to be sure.

Why then, you may ask, and well you may, does conventional knowledge
insist otherwise?  Well, think about it - in the last 30 to 50 years,
what soils have been being studied?  Well, agricultural soils.  And how
have agricultural soils been treated in that time period? With heavy
applications of chemical fertilizers, anti-fungals, and pesticides.  So
just how accurate a picture of soil life does this give us?

The answer is, not very.  It's like studying the land directly around
Chernobyl to get an idea of biological diversity in Russia.  Nitrites
and other agricultural products and byproducts are known (now) to have
severe deletorious effects on the natural flora and fauna in the soil. 
When you kill off the "bad" fungi you are killing off the "good" fungi
as well, as well as entire classes of microbes and protozoa that
interact with and/or feed on them.  I've seen estimates of soil life in
soil from a conventional farm at something like 1,000 to 10,000 per
teaspoon; it's 10 million for healthy soil that has not been subjected
to a constant barrage of pesticides, fungicides, and chemical
fertilizers.

It's only been in about the last 10 years that any serious work (or that
work being done has been taken seriously) on soil life.  THIS is the
reason that NPK doesn't work the way agricultural scientists insist it
ought; chemical fertilizers (of which 60 to 80% of the nitrogen is
actually wasted because it can't be utilized - there isn't enough soil
life to take it up and store it!) kill microbial soil life.  This has
been known for over 40 years; in fact, one of the early pioneers in the
development of chemical fertilizers recanted later in life - his further
research was showing that microbial and fungal agents were much, much
more active in overall soil health than had previously been suspected. 
But by that time the petroleum industry was making a looooot of money
off of chemical fertilizers, and a lot of people had a vested interest
in supporting the new status quo; so he and others like him were ignored
and often even quietly ridiculed for their "crackpot ideas".

Because of the fact that by and large it has been already-unhealthy soil
systems that have been getting studied, microbes like azobacter, which
is seldom found in chemically abused soils, have been assigned a much
smaller role in the nitrogen fixing cycle than is their due.  The fact
is that much of the activity and effects of the variously intertwined
microbes and fungi in a healthy (read: not found in conventional
agricultural) soil systems is STILL not fully understood.  This is a
case of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts; when the
argument is made that azobacter doesn't fix "enough" nitrogen to make
the soil "fertile enough", the effects of other bacteria and fungi and
their interactions in a healthy system are being ignored.

We have observable results - back to that forest floor again - that show
that in fact the actions of all these myriad tiny creatures in the soil
DO affect soil fertility, tilth, and soil composition in a positive
way.  Cover cropping, intercropping, and crop rotation, are all methods
of both maintaining soil health AND providing the extra fertility needed
for an unnaturally heavy feeder crop such as corn.

There's more to the whole situation - there are a lot of theories
floating about concerning crops that benefit from microbial nitrogen
fixers versus fungal nitrogen fixers - but it has been shown that if you
avoid planting INTO a sawdust based mulch (e.g., if you are planting in
soil underneath a mulch cover as opposed to planting into the mulch
itself as a medium, which is often done in no-till systems) you are not
going to observe any deletorious effects on a crop, while still gaining
the soil building and moisture conserving benefits of the mulch itself. 
This response is already ridiculously long so I won't go into all that
in any more detail now.  The important point is that sawdust as mulch is
ok; sawdust as a planting medium may be problematic for some crops.

It's true that not all sawdust is equally benign; you mention red cedar
and locust (I assume you mean black locust).  The red cedar may have
some tannins or other components that might cause some problems if you
are applying fresh sawdust;  I can't say about black locust.  Black
WALNUT, on the other hand, should be avoided, be he alive or be he dead,
because it contains significant growth inhibitors.  I'm told these
growth inhibitors don't affect soybeans, hence the practice lately of
intercropping black walnut groves with soybeans.  But I know these
growth inhibitors affect a lot of other plants, grass being one type in
particular (hence, no black walnuts will be going into my pasture - I'll
have to use something else, like honey locust or willow oak, to get some
light shade out there).

Just about anything else should be OK.  If you're unsure, use only aged
materials.  Sounds like, at 3 to 5 years reported for the original horse
stable sweepings, this would not be a problem for the original poster.

It occurs to me that when I mention that I'm getting sawdust from small,
local sawmills here in the Ozarks that those of you unfamiliar with
places like these might be misunderstanding just what it is I have to
deal with.  What we have here are small sawmills that have been in
operation in the same place for 50 years and more, upwards of 100 years
in some cases, I'm told.  So what we have are big, huge, whopping, YEARS
and YEARS old piles of sawdust.  Mountains of sawdust.

Some of this stuff hasn't been "fresh" in 10 years.  Towards the middle
of some of these piles I imagine it's even older than that.  These piles
are so big that it occurs to me to wonder if I might not be at risk of
burying myself if I were to dig into one incautiously.  (Not really, but
the thought did cross my mind.  Briefly.  Once or twice.)

Some of the mills take a bulldozer and shove it all into a nearby ravine
every few years, but others don't bother (or more likely don't have a
nearby ravine to shove it into).  This is the case at both of the mills
I have visited asking for sawdust.  "Sure, just load it up.", they tell
me.  "How much for a truck load?"  "You mean, how much does it weigh? 
Depends on your truck and how wet it is."  "No, I mean how much do I
have to PAY."  "PAY?  For SAWDUST?  Nothing."  "Well, how much can I
take?"  Moment of shocked silence.  "C'mon over here."  (Stepping to a
window behind the desk).  "See out there?  You can take ALL of it if you
can load it up."  Piles and piles and piles and piles . . .

I imagine the stuff in the center is pretty thoroughly composted, but
the stuff on the outsides is at least aged if not partially composted. 
None of it (except from the newest piles, which I won't be taking) is
fresh by any stretch of the imagination.  It's all oak and pine sawdust
as these mills only deal in oak and pine.  There are other mills that
deal in cedar but I'm not going to any of those.  The oils in pine are
very volatile; they're long gone by the time I'm going to get to it.

Another thing to watch out for, if you are getting your sawdust from a
woodworking shop or industrial setting, is sawdust that has been
contaminated by the chemicals and substances used in finishing wood, and
also sawdust from pressure treated woods.  You do NOT want that in your
garden, a little ground up arsenic-containing wood can really spoil your
day.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From astevens@ee.net Tue Feb 01 12:28:06 2000
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From: Andrew Stevens <astevens@ee.net>
Organization: American Small Farm
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Hi. I'm the editor of American Small Farm. Email me your street address
and I'll put you on our 3-free-issues list. Then you can decide if you
want to subscribe to our magazine.


From pike@always-online.com Tue Feb 01 12:33:41 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: cover crops
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 12:02:28 -0500
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Looks like I may have to lay off this year.  We need to get quite a
bit of timbering done to clean out from the hurricanes.  The heavy
equipment can't tiptoe around my crops.  If you had to lay out  your
growing space for a year/season, what would you do with it?  I'm
thinking of planting & plowing 2-4 crops of buckwheat or sunn
hemp-anyone plant this?, or a combination of both.  The heavy
equipment wouldn't hurt it, & it would greatly benefit the soil I need
to eventually include in my growing area.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC


From pike@always-online.com Tue Feb 01 12:33:55 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: NC farmers
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 11:39:46 -0500
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If you're in NC, please contact me personally, please!  Looking to
start a statewide organization of for market farmers!

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC

PS  I reinstalled Outlook this morning.  If my messages appear
garbled, please let me know so I can go slit my wrists with a
microchip.


From pike@always-online.com Tue Feb 01 12:34:10 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <B4BAED7C.10A5%llami@teleport.com> <LYR99119-34776-2000.01.31-11.06.15--grandad#grandadsfarm.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34784-2000.01.31-11.23.02--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99119-34889-2000.01.31-16.44.24--grandad#grandadsfarm.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-34969-2000.01.31-23.01.54--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Horsepower-4 legged kind
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 04:40:21 -0500
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From: Grandad <grandad@grandadsfarm.com>


> Yeah, 4 acres each for pasture.  Do you have other acres that
> you are going to garden on?

40 acres total, 17 useable.  don't want to garden/farm more than 5.
Need help hauling logs out of wooded acreage.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC


From llami@teleport.com Tue Feb 01 12:42:14 2000
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Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 09:38:33 -0800
Subject: Re: More Magazines (?)
From: Lee Lawton <llami@teleport.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Over the Rainbow Farm
95150 Turnbow Lane
Junction City, Oregon 97448

Thanks,

Lee


> From: Andrew Stevens <astevens@ee.net>
> Organization: American Small Farm
> Reply-To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
> Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 01:13:28 -0500
> To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
> Subject: Re: More Magazines (?)
> 
> Hi. I'm the editor of American Small Farm. Email me your street address
> and I'll put you on our 3-free-issues list. Then you can decide if you
> want to subscribe to our magazine.
> 
> 
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: llami@teleport.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
> 


From dorigreen00@hotmail.com Tue Feb 01 12:48:47 2000
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From: "Dori Green" <dorigreen00@hotmail.com>
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Dogs:  Herding & Guard
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 08:48:01 EST
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My "old lady" general farm dog is part Border and part Golden Retriever.  
She'll bring 'em in for me on command but lacks patience with kids (goat or 
people).  Typical of her Border ancestors.

GPs and Maremmas are often available for adoption from well-meaning but 
misguided people who tried to make them into companion dogs in the city.  
LGD-L is one e-mail list where notices of adoptions can be found (also dogs 
for sale).

I got a GP/Maremma adoptee a couple of years ago.  Somebody had left him 
running loose with no socialization until he was almost five months old.  He 
sat in the house and stared at the wall, so I put him outside on a cable 
run.  He sat and stared at the tree.  Finally, since it was so obvious he 
was just going to keep refusing to eat until he died, I turned him loose.  
He guarded my goats, my old dog, my cats, me, my poultry, the neighbor's 
Morgan horses, the other neighbor's cows, and everybody else in the 
surrounding 200 or so acres.  Coyotes are an epidemic in this area but not 
on our hill, thanks to Ragnar!  I visited all of the neighbors and explained 
about LGDs and the job that Rags was doing, and everybody was cool as long 
as I kept up with my program of calling him in and distracting him with a 
cookie when he barked in the middle of the night -- rewarded him for doing 
his job and gave whatever was exciting him time to vamoose.

Unfortunately, one of my hunting neighbors expressed concern that it looked 
like he was hunting deer -- for which the hunters around here will shoot a 
dog and not think twice.  He once spent a week in the hedgerow guarding a 
wounded doe until she could travel again (I guess he thought she was a 
funny-looking goat), so I think he was just on patrol and not hunting.  Rags 
disappeared on Hallowe'en Weekend and his buddy from down the road showed up 
at home with a hole in her chest, the size of a small-caliper bullet or 
target arrow (there's a 3D range next door).

I miss him terribly even though he was a difficult dog -- he was aloof on 
the side of autistic, a very new experience for somebody who's lived her 
whole life with those neurotic eager-to-please Borders.  I will get an LGD 
again, this time nothing older than 8 weeks so I can teach it to tolerate 
being confined when it has to be, and not until I've got at least two acres 
completely enclosed with woven wire.

Upshot:  I recommend LGDs wholeheartedly, but beware of the socialization 
problems that can come along with them and be sure of the acceptance and 
understanding of your neighbors.

They are better than a determined buck at getting out of the best of fences, 
BTW, and are strangely loose-jointed so seldom have trouble shrugging out of 
a body harness.  I never ever tie any animal by a collar.

Dori Green
Ash Grove Community Farm
Corning, NY
http://www.ic.org/agrove

______________________________________________________
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From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Tue Feb 01 12:50:59 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Permanent Raised Beds
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 12:50:21 -0800
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When does one decide about making a raised bed permanent?

It always seemed to me - with no experience in permanent raised beds - that
over time the bed would become dense and lose its tilth, then you'd have to
go into the bed with a tiller of some kind, and that would be more of a
pain.

What am I not understanding?

Rose


From dorigreen00@hotmail.com Tue Feb 01 13:01:12 2000
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From: "Dori Green" <dorigreen00@hotmail.com>
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Tax Preparation
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 09:01:23 EST
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What I want to do here is maybe a little bit different.  For several years I 
reported the farm as a business, with the help of an (expensive) CPA.  And I 
found out just how blooming difficult it is today to make a living as a 
farmer.

Now I'm developing the farm as a not-for-profit, to which I donate use of 
the land and my time until the members are ready to start paying me 
something for same.  The group will be doing the record keeping, reporting, 
etc. -- I'll just have to report income.

I can take deductions for my mortgage interest, taxes, and other standard 
stuff.  Memberships cover the expenses directly related to the operation of 
the community farm.

A simple Excel spreadsheet keeps all records easily sortable and we have a 
CPA who believes in what we're doing standing ready to help us file the 
paperwork for formal official 501(c)3 status (as a volunteer).

My father was a public accountant.  I have had so much enough of taxes in my 
lifetime that....well, you get the idea.

Yeah, I'm probably missing a lot of loopholes by doing this.  But all I need 
for the annual pain pilgrimage is a short form, W-2s, and mortgage 
statement.  For me, it's worth it.

If members join the garden co-op in time to order seeds from Fedco, that's 
where we order our seeds.  If they wait until May to join (as many still do, 
sigh) then we buy transplant flats from a local greenhouse company and we 
grow what they're offering.

Other than keeping the animals fed and the mortgage/utilities paid, I'm no 
longer sugar-mommying this or any other farm.  If people want access to it 
and its products they're just going to have to chip in to cover the 
operation.  If they don't, I can just enjoy it as a 20-acre residence.

Dori Green
Ash Grove Community Farm
Corning, NY
http://www.ic.org/agrove

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From llami@teleport.com Tue Feb 01 13:03:47 2000
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Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 08:13:26 -0800
Subject: Re: Sawdust as Mulch:
From: Lee Lawton <llami@teleport.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <B4BC4625.1144%llami@teleport.com>
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In my no-till garden, I use straw on the beds and sawdust on the paths. I
apply both about 6 inches thick, the straw goes on when I put the beds to
sleep for the winter, the sawdust goes on and lasts at least two years,
maybe more--I'll have to see. I've never found anything that holds down
weeds like the sawdust. And it makes a nice carpet to walk or kneel on, too.

The straw breaks down quite a bit during the winter (Zone 8). In spring,
I'll pull it back a bit for the sun to warm the soil, and I always find so
many worms I couldn't dig up a teaspoon of soil without cutting one. The
soil is friable, sweet smelling, and just about the prettiest sight I'll see
until that empty lawn chair at quitting time during the summer!

When I plant the seedlings (I plant everything from seedlngs so I know just
where everything will be placed), I pull the straw up close to the plant
(not touching), and I rarely have to weed anything out of the garden except
thistles.

Now, these are beds which were never tilled. They were created out of
pasture area, first mowed and laid out. Then, in fall, a layer of newspaper,
about 3 or 4 pages thick, was laid on the beds with a thick layer of horse
manure on top of that and then about 6 inches of straw, still in its "tiles"
on top of that. By spring, the worms had done all my tilling. I could reach
into the soil, hard pasture 4-5 months prior, and pick up a nice handful of
lovely soil. Granted, I'm farming creek-bottom land, although it doesn't
flood over it regularly.

If I have time to prepare ahead, I'll leave the tiller in the shed, and put
the worms to work!

Lee Lawton
Over the Rainbow Farm
Junction City, Oregon


> I'm a big fan of deep mulching.  Straw and hay not being an option where
> I live now (it's quite expensive) I'm going to move to using plain
> sawdust this year, a substance I have heretofore used only when mixed
> with grass clippings.  I'll happily serve as a test case, since I could
> tell you from now to kingdom come that someone I know has used sawdust
> and had no problem and none of us would be the wiser.  I'm a little too
> rushed for time to to a direct half 'n half split, but I'll tell you
> what, I'll set aside at least a small section that I'll leave unmulched
> and we'll compare the results between the sawdusted sections and the
> unmulched.  Probably not as scientific as it ought to be, but that's the
> best I can do.  I'll be lucky if I can manage that much, given that I'm
> currently building a house, but hopefully I can at LEAST do that much.
> If I manage to get any garden in at all, I'll give it my best shot.


From dorigreen00@hotmail.com Tue Feb 01 13:07:46 2000
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From: "Dori Green" <dorigreen00@hotmail.com>
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Prices
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 09:08:02 EST
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I grow a lot of stuff, but not everything (not yet).

So I go to the grocery store.

And I write down the produce prices in my handy-dandy notebook.

Sometimes I charge a little bit less at my market stand, but usually not.  
After all, mine is chemical-free and two weeks fresher.

Also, I've been doing this CSA/Market hobby farm thing for about ten years 
now.  Got a good enough idea about what summer squash brings in August (when 
everybody's got too much of the stuff) to set my prices now.  Worst case:  
they'll be too high later and I can lower them, or they'll be too low and my 
customers will get a good bargain for one year (I'll raise them for next 
year's list).

Advantage of early pricing -- I can have all of my price cards printed and 
ready to go by April, before I get busy with plant/weed/harvest chores.

Dori Green
Ash Grove Community Farm
Corning, NY
http://www.ic.org/agrove

PS - in case anybody is wondering about my sudden loquaciousness -- I'm home 
sick from school today.  Happens to the very best of us.

______________________________________________________
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From fsfarm@mufn.org Tue Feb 01 13:10:44 2000
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From: "five springs farm" <fsfarm@mufn.org>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-34584-2000.01.30-16.49.16--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99215-34617-2000.01.30-19.52.21--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99136-34733-2000.01.31-08.12.02--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR9921
 <LYR99014-34782-2000.01.31-11.14.50--fsfarm#mufn.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: forked carrots
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:08:06 -0500
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Also - I've heard to keep manure away from carrots.  When I manure my
> carrot crop, it certainly provides bad tasting, forked monsters.  Why is
> that?
>
> Robert.

Forked carrots are often caused by excess nitrogen. The manure would do
that.

Jim and Jo
The Community Farm Newsletter
http://www.mufn.org/public/tcf
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Farr <rbfarr@erols.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 11:16 AM
Subject: Re: Horse manure/sawdust



>
>  ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: fsfarm@mufn.org
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>



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From: "five springs farm" <fsfarm@mufn.org>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR99215-34615-2000.01.30-19.41.59--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99014-34731-2000.01.31-08.06.16--fsfarm#mufn.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99215-34753-2000.01.31-10.19.16--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99014-34761-2000
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Subject: broakforks
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:04:08 -0500
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> I've been looking for a broad fork for some time.
>
> Where can I find one - an affordable one (no Smith and Hawken for me),
> that is!
>
> Robert.
>

We got ours from Smith and Hawken before they got quite so cute. Try:

A.M Leonard
800-543-8955
I couldn't find it in the catalogue on hand now, but I am *almost* sure they
have one

Peaceful Valley Farm Supply
888-784-1722
Deep Spader, similar to a broadfork and Bio-fork

Johnny's
207-437-4395
Eliot Coleman design Broadfork


Jim and Jo
The Community Farm Newsletter
http://www.mufn.org/public/tcf
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Farr <rbfarr@erols.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: Production methods: tillage, beds, rows, etc.


>
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: fsfarm@mufn.org
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>
>



From Mulkey@TUNL.TUNL.DUKE.EDU Tue Feb 01 13:14:22 2000
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Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 13:17:12 -0500
From: Patrick Mulkey <Mulkey@TUNL.TUNL.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: Re: NC farmers
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Liz. I hope this is going to you and not the group. What did you have in
mind for this statewide organization? I am currently the President of the
Carrboro Farmers Market. There may be some of our members who are already
involved in this mail list.
Patrick
----- Original Message -----
From: Elizabeth Pike <pike@always-online.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 11:39 AM
Subject: NC farmers


> If you're in NC, please contact me personally, please!  Looking to
> start a statewide organization of for market farmers!
>
> Liz
> Morningstar Gardens
> Pollocksville NC
>
> PS  I reinstalled Outlook this morning.  If my messages appear
> garbled, please let me know so I can go slit my wrists with a
> microchip.
>
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: mulkey@tunl.duke.edu
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>


From waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Tue Feb 01 13:15:24 2000
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Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 13:17:22 -0500
From: Alex McGregor <waldenfarm@sprintmail.com>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Rose & Fred Lieberman wrote:

> It always seemed to me - with no experience in permanent raised beds - that
> over time the bed would become dense and lose its tilth, then you'd have to
> go into the bed with a tiller of some kind, and that would be more of a
> pain.
>
> What am I not understanding?

Rose,

We have 70 raised beds, all of which have been tilled (not rototilled) one time. They're
"raised" because of the amount of air space our tillage incorporated into the soil- not
by adding material on top. Some of these beds were tilled 15 years ago and none have ever
been tilled again.

Our soil management techniques encourage the soil life to build and maintain a stable
soil structure which maintains the physical structure established by the tillage.

What you're not understanding is how to maintain a stable soil structure which then makes
any further tillage destructive.

Alex


From Mulkey@TUNL.TUNL.DUKE.EDU Tue Feb 01 13:15:56 2000
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Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 13:18:30 -0500
From: Patrick Mulkey <Mulkey@TUNL.TUNL.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: Re: More Magazines (?)
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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References:
 <LYR100886-34803-2000.01.31-12.41.45--astevens#ee.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
 <LYR100817-35034-2000.02.01-12.28.02--mulkey#tunl.duke.edu@franklin.oit.unc.edu>


Address is 8702 Stanford Rd., Chapel Hill, NC 27516
Thanks,
Patrick Mulkey
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Stevens <astevens@ee.net>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 1:13 AM
Subject: Re: More Magazines (?)


> Hi. I'm the editor of American Small Farm. Email me your street address
> and I'll put you on our 3-free-issues list. Then you can decide if you
> want to subscribe to our magazine.
>
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: mulkey@tunl.duke.edu
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>


From pike@always-online.com Tue Feb 01 13:23:53 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR99136-34909-2000.01.31-17.59.22--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-35032-2000.02.01-12.27.37--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Sawdust as Mulch:
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:25:19 -0500
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Oh goody, I can pick your brains, Holly!

Do the fungi microbes work as quickly (which is what we want in order
to ultimately benefit our plants) as the aerobic soil bacteria?

The sawdust piles I see now, are from mills that went out of existence
40-60 years ago.  Is this how slow the fungi work??  I don't want
something ON my soil that takes that long to decompose, (granted it
wouldn't take that long once it's exposed to sun & moisture).

>The important point is that sawdust as mulch is ok; sawdust as a
planting medium may be problematic for some crops.<

I believe this is Art's point.  Because sawdust is free in such huge
amounts, people have a tendency to overuse it, then wonder why their
crops suffered/perished.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC

PS  Can you recommend resourses for more study on this-email me
privately since this may bore the pants off some!


From fullcircle@jps.net Tue Feb 01 13:27:42 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: More Magazines (?)


Andrew,

I, too would like to take a look at your publication American Small Farm.

Marcie A. Rosenzeig
Full Circle Organic Farm
3377 Early Times Ln
Auburn, Ca 95603

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Tue Feb 01 13:28:34 2000
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Green manure and mulch, was Re: Horse manure/sawdust
References: <LYR98963-34584-2000.01.30-16.49.16--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99215-34617-2000.01.30-19.52.21--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99136-34733-2000.01.31-08.12.02--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98943-34774-2000.01.31-11.02.52--waldenfarm#sprintmail.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99136-34866-2000.01.31-15.49.21--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98943-34880-2000.01.31-16.25.06--waldenfarm#sprintmail.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Sojourner wrote:

>
> I THINK you're agreeing with me?  Under these circumstances the microbes
> are utilizing nitrogen from the air, and not from the soil.  So they're
> not "tying up" SOIL nitrogen, which is what most people worry about.
> And since our atmosphere is, what, 70%?  Nitrogen, they're not really
> outcompeting plant life for airborne Nitrogen, either.
>
> Then, as the little soil buggers die off and their tiny little bodies
> rot, extra nitrogen that would otherwise have remained unfixed
> (free-floating in the atmosphere) is added to the soil.

Definitely agreeing with you about the difference between incorporating sawdust into the
soil and adding it to the surface as mulch. Just thought I'd add a bit of explanation.
Thanks for your info.

Alex


From fullcircle@jps.net Tue Feb 01 13:29:35 2000
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Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:28:58 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: More Magazines (?)


Hi Lee,
In the future, can you try to send these messages to an individual instead
of the whole list?  We had over 200 messages Sat and Sun. I love the
discussion on the list, but the volumn is problematic for some folks. If we
can all send only general interest to the list, it should help.

Thanks for your caring participation,




>Over the Rainbow Farm
>95150 Turnbow Lane
>Junction City, Oregon 97448
>
>Thanks,
>
>Lee
>
>
>> From: Andrew Stevens <astevens@ee.net>
>> Organization: American Small Farm
>> Reply-To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
>> Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 01:13:28 -0500
>> To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
>> Subject: Re: More Magazines (?)
>>
>> Hi. I'm the editor of American Small Farm. Email me your street address
>> and I'll put you on our 3-free-issues list. Then you can decide if you
>> want to subscribe to our magazine.
>>
>>
>> ---
>> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: llami@teleport.com
>> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
>> $subst('Email.Unsub')
>>
>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: fullcircle@jps.net
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to
>$subst('Email.Unsub')


Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From BBGREGSON@cs.com Tue Feb 01 13:34:09 2000
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Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:34:14 EST
Subject: Re: Permanent Raised Beds
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Rose-
It's true you will have to till a permanent raised bed.  The Mantis or 
equivalent small tiller is great for that task.  We keep our raised beds (all 
wooden-sided now as the hilled kind get grassy edges) at 42" total width so 
you can walk beside while tilling with the Mantis.
Bob Gregson, Island Meadow Farm, Vashon WA

From SCook21809@aol.com Tue Feb 01 13:36:56 2000
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<<  Just what are you warning against?  If its helpful for perenials, what is 
your concern with it when using it in the garden on your annuals? >>

    Soil Life!  If you believe that soil is a lifeless and benign substrate 
that grows plants when there is a chemical balance between the nitrogen, 
calcium, potassium, etc., then my caution is meaningless for your paradigm.  
Growers often disagree on methodologies based on their world views.
    I believe that plants are not fed by the soil.  They are fed by the 
activities of bacteria, fungi, and micro critters living in the soil.  In my 
mind, the reason a healthy soil doesn't have pest problems is because there 
are so many life forms in the soil eating the pests, they cannot compete.  
Plants manufacture sugars, hormones and chemicals which attract certain 
synergetic life forms to their rhizophere so that they can exchange nutrients.
    Annuals thrive best in bacterially mediated soils.  Perennials prosper 
best in fungally mediated soils.  Brasicas give off root exudates that 
actually kill fungi because they grow so much better in bacterially dominated 
soils.  As such, I always follow my broccoli by potatoes because I know there 
are no fungal pathogens in that soil.  
     It would be like me walking from New York to LA for a bacteria to move 
1\4 inch.  On the other hand, many fungi are capable of growing hypha, which 
are long threadlike filaments extending up to ten feet, that transport 
nutrients to plant roots in exchange for exudates.  Perennial roots are 
around long enough to establish a long-term symbiotic relationship with 
fungi.  Annuals are not.  
    By mulching the soil surface I encourage fungal growth in the soil.  By 
lightly mixing compost and green manure into the soil I am supporting the 
soil bacteria.  I can still mulch after the tilling in order to protect the 
soil from solarization and to retain moisture.  But over time, if I just 
plant through mulches my annuals will become less productive and resistant to 
disease.

Art Biggert
Ocean Sky Farm
Bainbridge Island, WA

  

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From: SCook21809@aol.com
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Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:36:57 EST
Subject: Re: Market Associations
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<< Does your market have an association for the vendors?  If so, how does 
this work & what are the pros & cons?>>

Liz,
    The Bainbridge Island Farmers' Market Assoc. (BIFMA) is made up entirely 
of venders.  In order to sell at the market each vender must be a BIFMA 
member in order to be covered by the site insurance.  To join, they must read 
and sign an agreement to follow the market rules.  Board members are elected 
by the general membership at our annual meeting in February.  More than 50% 
of the board members must be growers.  The board hires the Market Manager, 
does the annual budget, applies for grants, controls advertizing and 
recommends rule changes to the membership.  But all rule changes must pass a 
majority vote by the membership to go into effect.
    The Association got started10 years ago when a bunch of friends were 
sitting around and one said, "Damn, we should have a Farmers' Market here."  
We found a lawyer to set up the association as a nonprofit corporation to 
limit the liability (suability) of the venders, manager and board members.  
Our first board had a restaurant owner, baker, realitor and several growers.
    There are many ways to create an Association.  The creators get to pick 
the rules for the most part.  In Washington, there is a State Association who 
we buy our insurance from.  They require the more than 50% growers as sellers 
and board members in order to call it a farmers' market.

Art Biggert
Ocean Sky Farm

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Lee-
What about slugs in your permanent straw mulch?  Have you been doing this for 
several years or more?  We've thought about that but have been put off by 
slow soil warming in the spring as well as concern about slug habitat.
Bob G., Island Meadow Farm, Vashon, WA

From farmsted@cfw.com Tue Feb 01 13:47:59 2000
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Beth,

  Here in Virginia, we produce red raspberries for the local farmers'
market, and also sell to white tablecloth restaurants in the nearest
yuppie/college/white collar city. Prices for the berries have been $3.00
per half pint for several years now, but I also know producers in the
metro DC area getting $4.00 per half pint. All fresh raspberries leave
the farm in half pint clear clamshells. 
  By the way, Monte Package Company in  Riverside Michigan is an
excellent source of not only clamshells, but every other harvest
container or retail packaging that you can imagine. They have a website
at <www.montepkg.com>.    
  When we had surplus red raspberries a couple of years ago, we filled
up a chest freezer before my wife had the bright idea to start using
them in her farm-based catering business. She came up with a specialty
cake that sells to restaurants for $23.00. In effect, we are adding
value to our own crop by making the cakes and selling them to upscale
restaurants. Four cups of raspberries plus a box of yellow cake mix plus
a couple of eggs, etc. becomes a very profitable item for us. 
  We had our farmhouse kitchen certified by the VA Dept of Ag & Consumer
Services (a very simple process) and now my wife can hardly keep up with
the cake orders. She now delivers to eight restaurants in three cities.
The restaurants are happy also. They slice the raspberry cake into 20
slices and sell each slice for $4.00.
  So yes, you can freeze raspberries, and yes, you can have your own
family kitchen certified for "some types" of food service. It might be a
pain in the neck jumping through the governmental hoops and getting
yourself established with high-brow chefs, but believe me . . . it is
worth it! 
  I'll see if I can scan a picture or two and put the info up at our
website. 

Jeff Ishee
Bittersweet Farmstead
www.marketfarm.homestead.com/start.html

 
Hook Family wrote:
> 
> I know of a farm stand fellow who at the time ran a u pick raspberry farm all excess was frozen he then used a church's commercial kitchen to make pies.
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From llami@teleport.com Tue Feb 01 13:54:00 2000
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Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 10:50:26 -0800
Subject: Re: Sawdust as Mulch:
From: Lee Lawton <llami@teleport.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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That was my biggest fear, too, when I decided to try no-till. But I've had
fewer slugs the past couple of years than I did the first year I gardened
here in Slug Country. One other thing I do is to put the shells from my
hazelnut crop in the paths and around beds where slugs have been esp.
active. The sharp edges make the slugs stay out. I don't think those slugs
like that sawdust very well--seems like you'd see a big wad of sawdust
moving verrry slowly before it just stopped dead!

Last year, I also used Sluggo, an organic slug bait (iron phosphate, I think
it is). This, too, seemed to help, although you have to use it a lot more
often than the poisonous kind.

Overall, I have a lot more complaint about the cucumber beetles the last
couple of years than I do about the slugs. This could just coincidence, but
I'm not missing those slugs at all!

Lee Lawton
Over the Rainbow Farm
Junction City, Oregon



> From: BBGREGSON@cs.com
> Reply-To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
> Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:39:33 EST
> To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
> Subject: Re: Sawdust as Mulch:
> 
> Lee-
> What about slugs in your permanent straw mulch?  Have you been doing this for
> several years or more?  We've thought about that but have been put off by
> slow soil warming in the spring as well as concern about slug habitat.
> Bob G., Island Meadow Farm, Vashon, WA
> 
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: llami@teleport.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
> 


From maryspiral@juno.com Tue Feb 01 14:07:16 2000
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To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:56:13 -0600
Subject: Price of earthway seeder, etc.
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From: Mary Hoelterhoff <maryspiral@juno.com>


Thought I'd mention E & R again (mentioned in an earlier post)
Good company  for those of us east of the Mississippi. I believe they're
a Mennonite or Amish company...all business is snail mail..takes 2-3
weeks to get delivery, from the time you mail your order. At the end of
invoice they add a $2.95 handling charge. Their prices often are lower
than Johnny's and AM Leonard for the same tool. This year they offered a
small selection of organic seed. 

E&R Seed 
1356 E 200 S
Monroe, IN 46772

Sells earthway seeder for $67.95 (includes freight charge) 

The Hand Bean Planter (jab type planter tool) is $39.95 (includes
freight)

Mary Hoelterhoff
Blue Skink Farm CSA
Monticello, KY

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From maryspiral@juno.com Tue Feb 01 14:07:58 2000
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Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 12:59:48 -0600
Subject: help with irrigation
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>Subject: Help with irrigation and mulch
>From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
>Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 07:29:31 -0800
>X-Message-Number: 2
>
>Two topics I need clarity on:  Irrigation and Mulches.
>
Hi Rose,

i irrigate with drip, a two acre mixed veggie and flower garden, from a
100' deep,
2gallon/a minute  Well that has a submersible pump.

You can control how much you can water at a time by how many zones you
create.

For example: The field I garden in is over 500' long; I divided it in
half. One zone is running 250' to the south the other 250' to the north.
I use 1 1/2" Flat Tube($34/150') as the main line, with a shut- off valve
at the beginning of each of the two lines. So i can water the south of
the field at one time or the north at one time. 

the dripline is connected to the flat tube by way of drip tape fittings.
I use a fitting with a valve (.40" Barb X Tape Loc w/Valve $1.65 each), 
so that i can further divide each bed into a zone. In that way i can
water beds individually. i.e. tomato bed needs watering but the beets
with the mulch don't. When we're in a drought, i'll  water 1-3 beds at a
time.

I also use a tensiometer.....though expensive $46.59, it is a handy tool
for telling me when or how long to water. I place the meter in the middle
length of my tomato bed, when the gauge reads above  40+....i will water
till it reads 10.  The ideal is between 15-25, a reading of 0 = Wet .  
(it's all based on negative pressure)

When i was looking for irrigation supplies....i searched for the closest
local sources. i talked to a small comercial grower who told me where he
got his stuff....who ended up being another farmer who sold produce
supplies on the side....his mark-up is low and he gives good advise based
on his own experience. 

if you need more info let me know.

Mary Hoelterhoff
Blue Skink Farm CSA
Monticello, Ky 42633
maryspiral@juno.com
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From wshoemak@inil.com Tue Feb 01 14:17:10 2000
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From: "Bill Shoemaker" <wshoemak@inil.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Horse manure/sawdust
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 09:22:04 -0600
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>Contacted the stable where dd takes riding lessons.  Their manure/sawdust
>piles are 3-5 years old.  Now I'm wondering if the nutrients haven't
already
>leached out & microbial activity deceased.  I could have it tested.
>
>Liz
>Morningstar Gardens
>Pollocksville, NC
--


    Plain sawdust has few plant nutrients in it anyway. It's real value is
that it feeds microorganisms. The byproduct of their feeding is humus, which
contributes to soil tilth, but only after a looong time. On the other hand,
the nutrients contributed by the horse manure are probably still there for
the most part.

Bill Shoemaker
Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
Univ of Illinois - St Charles Hort Research Center



From wshoemak@inil.com Tue Feb 01 14:17:31 2000
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From: "Bill Shoemaker" <wshoemak@inil.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Green manure and mulch, was Re: Horse manure/sawdust
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:05:01 -0600
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>> Sojourner wrote:
>>
>> > The belief that sawdust will "tie up the nitrogen" in your soil is a
>> > myth based on studies done with sawdust that had been "worked in" to
the soil - e.g., was decomposing (or rather not) in anaerobic conditions.
>> >
>> > Spreading sawdust on TOP of your soil will not cause a nitrogen
deficiency.  Aerobic decomposition, taking place in the presence of oxygen
(which is what goes on when you surface spread) is a whole  'nother animal
than anaerobic.

    Spreading sawdust on top of the soil CAN cause a localized nitrogen
deficiency because the microrganisms that feed on that layer of sawdust
laying on the ground need nitrogen too, whether they are aerobic or
anaerobic bacteria. They cannot get nitrogen from the air. They can only
draw upon nitrogen reserves in the soil or in the mulch because of the form
that nitrogen takes when in the soil. Since sawdust has virtually zero
nitrogen in it the nitrogen is withdrawn from the top layer of soil.
HOWEVER, if the sawdust has manure mixed in or is well composted, it will
not need soil nitrogren as it will supply the microorganisms itself.

        Mixing it in the soil is a problem for the above reason, but also
because the soil may not be aerobic enough itself, for instance, heavy
clays. If the soil has already been built up organically and can breathe to
a reasonable depth, the oxygen levels in the soil will be adequate to
support a reasonable level of aerobic decomposition. But that is never as
good as composting the sawdust or other organic material first. Composting
provides an initial breakdown of carbon bonds in the organic material that
relieves soil organisms from the burden, and "expense", of doing it.

Bill Shoemaker
Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
Univ of Illinois - St Charles Hort Research Center




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From: "Bill Shoemaker" <wshoemak@inil.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: carrots and horse manure
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 09:27:21 -0600
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>why can't you plant carrots where there's horse manure?
>i've never heard of that one.
>


    Two reasons. The most important is that if it isn't composted there is a
risk, although slight, that it can be contaminated with an unsafe
microorganism. Putting it into the garden on carrots, or any other crop, can
pose the risk of cross-contamination, leading to vegetables with a food
safety risk. Though I think the risk is very small, the consequences are
horrible if cross-contamination actually occurs.

    The second reason is that there is a lot of free nitrogen in uncomposted
horse manure. It would contribute to excessive vegetative growth and reduce
the quality of the roots. Many of them will end up distorted and
strong-flavored.

Bill Shoemaker
Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
Univ of Illinois - St Charles Hort Research Center


From CLABEOTS@baraboo.k12.wi.us Tue Feb 01 14:25:52 2000
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From: "Chris Labeots" <CLABEOTS@baraboo.k12.wi.us>
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I would like to sample your magazine.

Chris Labeots=20
E12908 Neuman Rd
Baraboo,WI 53913



>>> Andrew Stevens <astevens@ee.net> 02/01/00 12:13AM >>>
Hi. I'm the editor of American Small Farm. Email me your street address
and I'll put you on our 3-free-issues list. Then you can decide if you
want to subscribe to our magazine.


---
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From nhaycock@pratt.edu Tue Feb 01 14:28:13 2000
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From: Nancy Haycock <nhaycock@pratt.edu>
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Hi, I just bought my farm up in Delaware County in New York, and I've
already noticed that a great many deer have gotten used to passing their
free time in areas where I plan to plant vegetables. So, I need to put
up fencing this spring. I read the email over the weekend about fence
height, and I'm wondering whether anyone has put up 9' (2' in the
ground) fence posts without a tractor for help.  Is it crazy to think
about standing on a ladder or something to pound in posts? I was
thinking I would use electric fencing, since I figure I will probably
reconfigure things at some point when I'm smarter.
Any manual fence post advice?
Thanks.
Nancy Haycock
Hand in Hand Farm
RR 1 Box 122
Hobart, New York 13788


From sojournr@missouri.org Tue Feb 01 15:05:34 2000
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Bill Shoemaker wrote:
> 
> >why can't you plant carrots where there's horse manure?
> >i've never heard of that one.
> >
> 
>     Two reasons. The most important is that if it isn't composted there is a
> risk, although slight, that it can be contaminated with an unsafe
> microorganism. 

Pardon?

Just what pathogens are you going to be at risk for from horse (not
human) manure, and what is the likelihood of ever coming across any of
them?

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: freezing and value added



>  and yes, you can have your own
>family kitchen certified for "some types" of food service.

Jeff et al,

This is NOT possible, in fact forbidden in law, in California.  Probably OK
in every other state, though.

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Tue Feb 01 16:00:15 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: Re: Sawdust as Mulch:
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 15:00:20 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
Reply-To: lflondon@mindspring.com
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On Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:36:55 EST, SCook21809@aol.com wrote:

>    Soil Life!

The soil population is so complex that it manifestly cannot be dealt
with as a whole with any detail by any one person, and at the same
time it plays so important a part in the soil economy that it must be
studied.
--Sir E. John Russell "The Micro-organisms of the Soil", 1923 



Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu


From awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us Tue Feb 01 16:02:54 2000
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From: "Wiediger, Alison" <awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us>
To: 'market farming' <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: RE: freezing and value added
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 14:48:50 -0600 
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Not in Kentucky.  It must be a separate room with stringent health code
regulations.

Alison Wiediger
Au NAturel Farm


> >  and yes, you can have your own
> >family kitchen certified for "some types" of food service.
> 
> Jeff et al,
> 
> This is NOT possible, in fact forbidden in law, in California.  Probably
> OK
> in every other state, though.
> 
> Marcie A. Rosenzweig
> Full Circle Organic Farm
> Auburn, CA
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as:
> awiediger@hart.k12.ky.us
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
> 

From wshoemak@inil.com Tue Feb 01 16:04:34 2000
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From: "Bill Shoemaker" <wshoemak@inil.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: carrots and horse manure
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 15:04:51 -0600
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>Bill Shoemaker wrote:
>>
>> >why can't you plant carrots where there's horse manure?
>> >i've never heard of that one.
>> >
>>
>>     Two reasons. The most important is that if it isn't composted there
is a
>> risk, although slight, that it can be contaminated with an unsafe
>> microorganism.
>
>Pardon?
>
>Just what pathogens are you going to be at risk for from horse (not
>human) manure, and what is the likelihood of ever coming across any of
>them?
>
>--
>Holly ;-D
>Contrary Peasant
>sojournr@missouri.org


    As I said before, the risk is slight, but real. Salmonella bacteria, a
source of food poisoning, can be found in animal manure. There isn't any
sense in taking any risk with raw manure when the manure can be composted to
eliminate the risk.

    This is partly why the FDA is imposing pasteurization regulations on
apple cider makers. There have been a few instances where cider has been
found to be contaminated by salmonella where apple drops (fallen from the
tree) were used. Animal droppings, including deer, have been implicated in
some of those cases.

Bill Shoemaker
Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
Univ of Illinois - St Charles Hort Research Center


From Mulkey@TUNL.TUNL.DUKE.EDU Tue Feb 01 16:12:18 2000
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Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 16:15:06 -0500
From: Patrick Mulkey <Mulkey@TUNL.TUNL.DUKE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Market Associations
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Liz, our association is going on 23 years now. All products have to be grown
or produced by the vendor within a 50 mile radius of Carrboro, NC. Each
member is inspected when they are admitted and can be re-inspected at any
time thereafter. We do re-inspect 5 to 7 members each year. We do this by
appointment unless there is a concern of rules being broken. We have a 7
member board of directors who serve a 2 year term. In our upcoming annual
meeting this month we will elect 3 members. The board runs the market and
hires our managers. The rules are voted on each year at the annual meeting
and require a simple majority to pass. We have a Sat. market from the 3rd
Sat. in March until the last Sat. before Christmas. We also have a Wed.
market beginning in April til the last Wed. in Oct. We limit our bakers and
crafts to max of 15 of the 80 spaces available. In order to be a voting
member and reserve a space you have to come 17 or more Saturdays a year.
Currently we have about 70 voting members. Several members do have double
spaces. For example last year we admitted 6 new farmers only 3 got 17 or
more weeks. This is not uncommon. We do let those who do not make enough
weeks to come on a temporary status which means they have to call the
manager on a Thursday night to see if there is a open space for them on
Saturday. 99% of the time there is. This enable us to keep the products
there for the public and help grow some of our newer farmers to full
membership.
I will be glad to respond to any questions folks have about our setup.
Patrick
----- Original Message -----
From: Elizabeth Pike <pike@always-online.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 9:30 PM
Subject: Market Associations


> Does your market have an association for the vendors?  If so, how does
> this work & what are the pros & cons?
>
> Liz
> Morningstar Gardens
> Pollocksville NC
>
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: mulkey@tunl.duke.edu
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>


From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Tue Feb 01 16:15:58 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Is scab species specific?
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:15:14 -0800
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We moved here last year.  The only thing I knew about the acreage I tilled
and used was that it functioned mostly as a hayfield and for a couple of
years the neighbor dairy farmer grazed cows there.

Well you certainly can tell where the cows like to loiter.  Beautiful soil!

We planted potatoes.  One cultivar that was not highly resistant to scab
definitely did develop scab.  So, now when I purchase seed potatoes - for
home and for market - I'm getting "highly resistant" varieties.

But my question is this.  Is scab a species specific ailment?  In other
words, if my potatoes have it, will the apple trees that I plant 50 feet or
100 feet away develop it too?  Are there "transpecie" problems here?

Thanks,

Rose


From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Tue Feb 01 16:23:00 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: fence posts
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:22:34 -0800
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Oh, well, I don't know if it's crazy to stand on a ladder and pound, but I
can tell you my experience.

I held the tall green heavy "t" post while my husband wielded the mallet.
(I was less than thrilled about this arrangement, but with my shoulders'
penchant for locking up, he got the "wielding" job).

Well, the first hit, the vibrations travelled down the pole and hit my hands
and travelled to my wrist.  I saw stars!  Mind you, nothing "physical"
touched me, but that travelling vibe almost knocked me over.

Not only that, but it is dangerous.  Ladders and step stools - for us - are
out of the question.  If you have a flatbed truck, or a tailgate that goes
down, maybe.

But, for our place here, knowing each other the way I do - our shortcomings
'n all - I've opted for the more expensive 5' step-in posts.

They're 3 bucks each, you put it where you want it, you step on the little
footholder, and umph!  You're in.  You still have to install a good solid
corner post, concreted in, but for all the "line posts" I'd go with the $3
thingy, or the even less expensive "temporary" steel posts with the
triangular doodad on the bottom.

If I had my druthers, I'd have someone else put in 10' locust posts and
string 8 lines of hot wire.  End of story!

But, alas, flower farming hasn't made me rich and famous, yet.  Maybe next
year...

Rose


From kmarsh@iol.ie Tue Feb 01 16:48:25 2000
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 t.unc.edu>
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Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:42:31 +0000
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: kathryn marsh <kmarsh@iol.ie>
Subject: Re: Permanent Raised Beds


>Rose & Fred Lieberman wrote:
>
>> It always seemed to me - with no experience in permanent raised beds - that
>> over time the bed would become dense and lose its tilth, then you'd have to
>> go into the bed with a tiller of some kind, and that would be more of a
>> pain.
>>
>> What am I not understanding?
>
>Rose,
>
>We have 70 raised beds, all of which have been tilled (not rototilled) one
>time. They're
>"raised" because of the amount of air space our tillage incorporated into
>the soil- not
>by adding material on top. Some of these beds were tilled 15 years ago and
>none have ever
>been tilled again.
>
>Our soil management techniques encourage the soil life to build and
>maintain a stable
>soil structure which maintains the physical structure established by the
>tillage.
>
>What you're not understanding is how to maintain a stable soil structure
>which then makes
>any further tillage destructive.
>
>Alex
>
Sounds like you should write one of Lawrence's FAQs Alex

kathryn



From goodows@excite.com Tue Feb 01 16:57:53 2000
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Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 06:53:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley <goodows@excite.com>
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OEFFA Announces 21st Annual OEFFA Conference 

                                                       The Ohio Ecological
Food and Farm Association is proud to announce its 21st 
                                                       Annual Conference,
themed, "Our Biological Heritage, Seeds of the Past, 
                                                       Seeds for the
Future." The Conference will be held March 4th & 5th, 2000, 
                                                       at Northridge School,
in Johnstown, Ohio. Experts from Ohio and around the 
                                                       country will be on
hand sharing sustainable agriculture production and 
                                                       marketing techniques
through a wide variety of workshops and plenary 
                                                       speeches. The OEFFA
conference is Ohio's largest annual sustainable and 
                                                       organic agriculture
gathering with approximately 700 consumers, farmers, 
                                                       and retailers in
attendance. 

                                                       Don Bixby, Executive
Director of the American Livestock Breeds Conservancy, 
                                                       will present a
plenary session entitled "Heirloom Seeds and Breeds for a 
                                                       Sustainable Future." 
Cass Peterson, Market Gardener from Western 
                                                       Pennsylvania, will
present sessions entitled "Small Farm Diversification," 
                                                       focusing on diverse
revenue streams as insurance for small farmers.  In 
                                                       addition, CR Lawn,
Director of Fedco Seeds, will present the role of 
                                                       heirloom seedstocks
and their role in agricultural democracy and 
                                                       sustainability.
Speakers may be available for interviews.  For more 
                                                       information, call the
number below. 

                                                       The conference will
feature over 40 workshops on sustainable and organic 
                                                       food production,
marketing, and networking. Workshops include topics such 
                                                       as Working with Draft
Horses, Transitioning to Organic Grain Farming, 
                                                       Advanced and Beginner
Berry Production, Free Range Livestock Systems, 
                                                       Producing Bedding
Plants, Developing in Home Food Systems, The Role of Rare 
                                                       Breeds in Sustainable
Agriculture, Farmers' Market Sales, and more. In 
                                                       addition, a 4 hour
short course on organic greenhouse maintenance and 
                                                       production will be
offered during the two day conference. 

                                                       Other activities will
include a trade show for ecological entrepreneurs, a 
                                                       Saturday night contra
dance, child care services and children's conference, 
                                                       and Ohio grown and
organic meals prepared by OEFFA's Chef David Tidd. 
                                                       Attendees will have
the opportunity to browse the Organic Trade Show, which 
                                                       features organic and
sustainable product vendors from across Ohio and the 
                                                       Midwest. 

                                                       Registration fees for
the conference begin at $45, with volunteer discounts 
                                                       available. Child care
is available. Early registration deadline is 2/10/00. 
                                                       On site and single
day registrations will be accepted. For a copy of the 
                                                       workshop schedule,
registration forms, or trade show information, contact 
                                                       OEFFA at: 

                                                       PO Box 82234,
Columbus, Ohio 43202 
                                                       Phone 614/267-3663,
fax 614/267-4763, or email at oeffa@iwaynet.net. 

                                                       OEFFA is a non profit
organization founded in 1979 as a broad based 
                                                       membership
association of farmers, gardeners and consumers which conducts 
                                                       Ohio's organic
certification program, and hosts numerous educational 
                                                       programs for
sustainable and organic farmers, gardeners, and their 
                                                       customers. 
>  


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





_______________________________________________________
Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite
Visit http://freeworld.excite.com


From fullcircle@jps.net Tue Feb 01 17:01:36 2000
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Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 14:01:10 -0800
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Uncomposted manures and raw food product safety


Why Certifying organizations don't allow the use of uncomposted manures.

Colorado State University Cooperative Extension
SafeFood Rapid Response Network

    Odwalla E. Coli Problem Easily Avoided

    Editorial by Pat Kendall Ph.D., R.D., Colorado State University
Cooperative Extension
    Food Safety Specialist
    November 1, 1996

    The recent recall of Odwalla fruit juice drinks containing
unpasteurized apple juice tainted
    with the 0157:H7 strain of E. Coli is another testimony to how
dangerous this particular
    strain of the common E. coli bacteria can be.

    Should you swear off apple juice and drinks containing apple juice? No,
but you want to
    make sure you are purchasing pasteurized apple juice products. And, as
an extra precaution,
    you may want to consider heating any apple juice products served to
high-risk individuals,
    including very small children, the elderly and those with weakened
immune systems due to
    chronic illnesses. Heating juice to a temperature of 160 degrees F (a
slow simmer where
    steam starts rising from the pan) before serving or refrigerating will
ensure any E. coli
    bacteria present has been killed. If you plan to serve the juice
immediately, make sure it has
    cooled to the point that it's just warm to the touch before giving to
small children.

    How did E. coli get into the apple juice products? The government
doesn't have answers yet.
    However, this is not the first time unpasteurized apple juice or apple
cider has been implicated
    as a cause of E. coli infection. In previous cases, squirrels and farm
animals in the orchards
    were the original source of the E. coli bacteria. The bacteria then
spread via fecal
    contamination to fallen apples that weren't washed before they were
included in a vat of apple
    juice. The vat then was not pasteurized before the juice was sold at
roadside stands.

    E. coli 0157:H7 is an excellent example of good bacteria gone bad.
Whereas most strains of
    E. coli bacteria are harmless, this particular strain attaches itself
to the intestinal wall and then
    releases a toxin that causes severe abdominal cramps, bloody diarrhea
and vomiting that lasts
    a week or longer. It usually takes four or five days for symptoms to
appear. In small children
    and the elderly, the disease can progress to kidney failure.

    First reported in 1982, most outbreaks of illness from 0157:H7 have
been traced to
    undercooked ground beef, raw milk, unpasteurized apple juice,
contaminated water and
    vegetables grown in manure. In one Washington state case, the disease
was passed between
    children through poor hygiene and diapering practices.

    The good news is that E. coli 0157:H7 is easily destroyed by cooking or
heating. In both the
    case of ground beef and apple juice or cider, heating to a temperature
of 160 degrees F
    quickly destroys any bacteria present.

    For more information, contact the State Department of Health's consumer
Odwalla E. coli
    outbreak hot line at (303) 692-2667.

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Tue Feb 01 17:10:58 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: Re: Sawdust as Mulch:
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 16:11:12 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
Reply-To: lflondon@mindspring.com
Message-ID: <unie9sg2695f6esaq53ikjqn2t50j6mqqk@4ax.com>
References: <39794@market-farming> <39841@market-farming>
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>On Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:36:55 EST, SCook21809@aol.com wrote:

>>    Soil Life!

The soil population is so complex that it manifestly cannot be dealt
with as a whole with any detail by any one person, and at the same
time it plays so important a part in the soil economy that it must be
studied.
--Sir E. John Russell "The Micro-organisms of the Soil", 1923 

More on plant-available nutrients from soil fungi:

From: niemirab@student.msu.edu  (Brendan A. Niemira)
Newsgroups: bionet.plants
Subject: Re: Mycorhizzae vs. Fertilizer
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 1995  11:04 est
Organization: Michigan State University

> If a person was to isolate a fungus that would form a 
> mycorhizzae relationship with an agronomic crop, would
> innoculation of that fungus into the field (once it
> became established) be an effective method for reducing
> the need for commercial fertilization? Wouldn't the
> "strength/abundance" of the fungi grow exponentially with 
> the passing of years?
 
For agronomic crops, you're talking about vesicular arbuscular
mycorrhizae (VAM), a symbiotic endomycorrhizal fungus.  These are
ubiquitous anyway, and not very host-specific, so there is very little
need to inoculate the field in order to introduce them.  The big trick
is getting them to colonize your crop plant to such an extent that
fertilizer inputs can be reduced.  You can a) build up the population
in the soil such that even moderately active fungi result in heavy
coloniazation, b) put something in the soil to stimulate the activity
of smaller populations to get heavy colonization.   

Crop rotations have been shown to have a definite impact on the
population dynamics of VAM, and work is currently being done (by me,
among others) to determine how the different crop plants
differentially select for certain species of VAM among all that are
availible in the soil. 

Other workers have shown that certain natural, plant-produced
chemicals can stimulate the existing VAM to higher levels of activity.
These chemicals were originally derived from red clover, a popular
sequence in crop rotations.  This may shed some light on why rotations
are effective w/regard to VAM.
 
Good luck.

Brendan A. Niemira           |   "You know your Shelley, Bertie."
Dept. Botany and Plant Path  |   "Oh, am I?"
Michigan State University    |       P.G. Wodehouse
niemirab@student.msu.edu     |       *The Code of the Woosters*
        All opinions expressed are entirely my own.

<><><><><>



Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu


From pike@always-online.com Tue Feb 01 17:12:02 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-35139-2000.02.01-15.57.36--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: freezing and value added
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:13:29 -0500
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Jeff >and yes, you can have your own family kitchen certified for
"some types" of food service.<

These laws vary from state to state, which you probably already know
; ).  In NC, it isn't possible.  Unless, you want to put in an extra
sink just for washing hands-can't do anything else with it, and keep
everything under refrigeration-41* to be exact, 43* degrees &
everything gets dumped, anyone under 16 can't operate things like
blenders, mixers, etc, or be in it past 7:00pm....I won't go on.

We handle food poisoning complaints about once a month at our
restaurant-we serve 700-1000 people daily, except Sundays (we're
closed!).  In 20 years, we haven't had one complaint proven by a
doctor, emergency room physician or the health department.  We've been
sued 7 times-all cases dropped.   A tummy ache, & customers see us as
big pockets.  Maybe they wouldn't do this to farmers.  But then again,
in these litigious times, I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

If you do this, be careful.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC


From lh@pressroom.com Tue Feb 01 17:15:36 2000
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 >
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:15:09 -0500
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Leigh Hauter <lh@pressroom.com>
Subject: Re: Uncomposted manures and raw food product safety


I think Pat Kendell's article is interesting for what it doesn't say as
much as it says.
But it might be a little off subject for this list to talk about industrial
farming's sanitary practices.


From pike@always-online.com Tue Feb 01 17:23:34 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
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References: <LYR98963-35164-2000.02.01-17.15.35--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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From: Leigh Hauter <lh@pressroom.com>

> But it might be a little off subject for this list to talk about
industrial
> farming's sanitary practices.

I very strongly disagree.  We're all in the business of growing &
selling food (you can eat some flowers; } ), & we absolutely must be
safe about it or we could lose our farms, not to mention the bad press
our fellow farmers would be forced to deal with.  I'm not an
industrial farmer, but I can learn from their mistakes.  That's why
I'm organic!

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC


From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Tue Feb 01 17:24:59 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: Re: Permanent Raised Beds
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 16:25:02 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
Reply-To: lflondon@mindspring.com
Message-ID: <66je9soo4k8ij5sv69mig75ui12msk3c4u@4ax.com>
References: <LYR98943-35056-2000.02.01-12.50.57--waldenfarm#sprintmail.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <39781@market-farming>
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On Tue, 01 Feb 2000 13:17:22 -0500, Alex McGregor
<waldenfarm@sprintmail.com> wrote:

>Rose & Fred Lieberman wrote:

>> It always seemed to me - with no experience in permanent raised beds - that
>> over time the bed would become dense and lose its tilth, then you'd have to

Not if you incorporate enough biomass and rock powders into the soil.
Remineralize - add finished compost aged manures and  manure and/or
compost tea - add soil amendments such as alfalfa meal, soybean meal,
bone meal, cottonseed/feather/peanutshell meal. Double dig or do the
equivalent of this, add most of the biomass and soil amendments and
rock powders in the top 6" to 12" of garden soil.

>> go into the bed with a tiller of some kind, and that would be more of a
>> pain.

>We have 70 raised beds, all of which have been tilled (not rototilled) one time. They're
>"raised" because of the amount of air space our tillage incorporated into the soil- not
>by adding material on top. Some of these beds were tilled 15 years ago and none have ever
>been tilled again. Our soil management techniques encourage the soil life to build and maintain 
>a stable soil structure which maintains the physical structure established by the tillage.

That's it in a nutshell. This is the optimum bed
preparation/maintenance method; used worldwide for thousands of years;
Paris market gardeners to subsistence and market farmers in Southeast
Asia.
Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu


From cappy@harborside.com Tue Feb 01 17:26:53 2000
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From: "Cappy Tosetti" <cappy@harborside.com>
To: <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: AgriSurf search engine
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 14:35:32 -0800
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Hi Everyone,=20

Here's an interesting and upbeat search engine focused totally on =
agriculture.

AgriSurf        www.agrisurf.com

Lots of current information, national and international.  You can also =
post your own workshops and conferences. =20

See what you think.

Cappy Tosetti
on the Oregon coast

www.bumpercropmarketing.com=20

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Hi Everyone, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Here's an interesting and =
upbeat search=20
engine focused totally on agriculture.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS"=20
size=3D2>AgriSurf&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <A=20
href=3D"http://www.agrisurf.com">www.agrisurf.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Lots of current information, =
national and=20
international.&nbsp; You can also post your own workshops and =
conferences.&nbsp;=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>See what you =
think.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Cappy Tosetti</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>on the Oregon =
coast</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.bumpercropmarketing.com">www.bumpercropmarketing.com</=
A>=20
</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From fullcircle@jps.net Tue Feb 01 17:43:30 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Uncomposted manures and raw food product safety


Leigh, Liz, etal,

Perhaps I should have clipped this down.  It's probably not as important to
talk about  how E. coli mutated to this form (mostly because the powers
that be would debate it to death rather than do something drastic about it)
than to recognize that bedding from any critter, be it horses, cow,
turkeys, chikens,etc., should be composted before being applied to food
growing beds.

You're right Leigh, this isn't the forum for how increasingly
industrialized agriculture acts to promote these catastrophes :-)  PS Sanet
has run a couple of threads on that topic.


>
>    How did E. coli get into the apple juice products? The government
>doesn't have answers yet.
>    However, this is not the first time unpasteurized apple juice or apple
>cider has been implicated
>    as a cause of E. coli infection. In previous cases, squirrels and farm
>animals in the orchards
>    were the original source of the E. coli bacteria. The bacteria then
>spread via fecal
>    contamination to fallen apples that weren't washed before they were
>included in a vat of apple
>    juice. The vat then was not pasteurized before the juice was sold at
>roadside stands.
>

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Tue Feb 01 17:49:40 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: Edible flowers: food for the table, crops for the market farmer (Faq time!)
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 16:49:50 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
Reply-To: lflondon@mindspring.com
Message-ID: <npke9s4p0t08oma4psclhvi8rkfhdta5uo@4ax.com>
References: <LYR98963-35164-2000.02.01-17.15.35--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <39868@market-farming>
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On Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:25:00 -0500, "Elizabeth Pike"
<pike@always-online.com> wrote:

>We're all in the business of growing &
>selling food (you can eat some flowers; }

You seem to know something about this, Liz.
Can you give us a list of edible flowers with
notation for those with economic potential for market farmers?

As if you didn't have enough work....

>), & we absolutely must be
>safe about it or we could lose our farms, not to mention the bad press
>our fellow farmers would be forced to deal with.  I'm not an
>industrial farmer, but I can learn from their mistakes.  That's why
>I'm organic!

For field crops this seems to center around the E Coli contamination
issue - maybe those who compost their manure soil amendments are safe
from this problem.

LL
Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu


From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Tue Feb 01 18:04:47 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: Re: Uncomposted manures and raw food product safety
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 17:04:59 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
Reply-To: lflondon@mindspring.com
Message-ID: <alle9socfk3nvrfrlqtao9fvmt1hbcmtv9@4ax.com>
References: <39877@market-farming>
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On Tue, 1 Feb 2000 14:42:59 -0800, Marcie Rosenzweig
<fullcircle@jps.net> wrote:

>Perhaps I should have clipped this down.  It's probably not as important to
>talk about  how E. coli mutated to this form (mostly because the powers

I am glad you mentioned this as I have wondered if e coli
contamination of my field crops is something I have to worry about, 
considering that I may well use a variety of compost/manure soil
amendments on my beds that are in varying stages of decomposition.
Maybe a rule of thumb would be not to plant a harvestable food crop in
a bed until all e coli-containing amendments have aged X-number-of
weeks/months/years.

> PS Sanet has run a couple of threads on that topic.

sanet-mg, market-farming, csa, csa-l and permaculture are among 
the dozen wonders of the cyber-world. Truly useful resources for all.

Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu


From pike@always-online.com Tue Feb 01 18:12:54 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-35173-2000.02.01-17.26.51--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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I've died & gone to heaven (microchips work, just kidding!)!!  Thanks =
Cappy-this will save me a ton of time, something I'm losing more of each =
day!

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC

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From lh@pressroom.com Tue Feb 01 18:15:21 2000
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To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: Leigh Hauter <lh@pressroom.com>


 But it might be a little off subject for this list to talk about
industrial
> farming's sanitary practices.

I was speaking to myself because I was about to go on and on and on about
the subject.

 I suspect that the juice pasteurization rules was to cover up unsanitary
industrial practices and to increase shelf life.  The industry is using the
same e-coli to try to justify food irradiation  (who wants to eat puss,
urine and feces even if the bacteria have been killed?)  The good professor
from my Alma mater failed to mention the vector e-coli got into the juice,
even though he tried to make is seem that it was happening everywhere.

He didn't mention how long e-coli lives outside the body. I suspect not long.
He didn't mention what sort of conditions existed in the juice companies
packing house, where they got their apples, how the apples were stored
before juicing? What sort of sanitary conditions existed for the farm
workers (in many states farm workers aren't provided sanitary facilities
and use the ground in the orchard).  To me, pasteurization seems like a
quick and dirty fix for bad, but cost effective practices.
  Living near DC and having once been a lobbyist, I am very aware that most
things coming out of DC (or for that matter the state houses) are the
result of money.

From pike@always-online.com Tue Feb 01 18:30:05 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-35183-2000.02.01-18.15.21--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Chat??
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 18:31:35 -0500
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Thanks Leigh!  I think I'll go pour out my juice now!

Switching topics, it seems we're all using email to chat-not that "I"
mind (being the chatty one!), should we set up a chat time/room
somewhere/somehow??  And schedule regular times/topics to do it??  I
know I mentioned this on the CSA-L list & had several positive
responses to it.  Only problem is I can't file your chat comments (am
I the only one who does this??).  Might save mailbox space for some.
I'm not talking chit-chat, but meaningful conversation to delve into
these other topics we keep skimming.

Just MHO,

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC



From maroc@islandnet.com Tue Feb 01 18:31:35 2000
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From: maroc@islandnet.com (Maroc)
Subject: genetically engineered seed


I hope this is alright to Xpost this article to market farming, I thought
some of you may be interested in the message.

Don Maroc
Vancouver Island, Canada

P A N U P S
Pesticide Action Network Updates Service
===========================================

Seminis -- GE vegetable seeds

January 31, 1999

In the past five years, the California-based company Seminis Vegetable Seeds
has gained control of approximately 19% of the worldwide fruit and vegetable
seed market; Seminis now provides the seeds for some 40% of all vegetables
sold in the United States. Through the combined strategies of controlling
large amounts of germ plasm and entering cooperative agreements with biotech
developers such as Monsanto, Seminis Vegetable Seeds is positioning itself
to lead the way in future genetic engineering of fruit and vegetable seeds.

Seminis is a subsidiary of the Savia Corporation, formerly known as Empresas
La Moderna (ELM). Based in Monterrey, Mexico, Savia is part of the Pulsar
Group, headed by Mexican billionaire Alfonso Romo Garza. Pulsar's activities
range from health care to insurance to agribusiness. The company was created
through the merger of three large seed brands -- Asgrow, Petoseed and Royal
Sluis -- plus the acquisition of nine smaller ones. These smaller brands
include regional specialties such as Choong Ang, which supplies seeds in
South Korea, and Horticeres, which operates in Brazil.

Seminis has seed production facilities in Arizona, California, Idaho, Oregon
and Washington as well as in over 18 other countries; major processing
facilities in California, Idaho, Chile and the Netherlands; and research
centers in France, Italy, South Korea, the Netherlands and the U.S.

Seminis is developing a range of crops with traits such as herbicide, virus,
insect or fungus resistance, as well as foods with "improved"
characteristics intended to appeal to consumers. Plans are in the works to
introduce fungus-resistant lettuce, virus-resistant melon with longer shelf
life, peas with high sugar content, and disease-resistant tomatoes with
increased levels of the nutrients beta-carotene and lycopene.

A collaborative agreement established with Monsanto in 1997 lays the
groundwork for applying Monsanto's genetic engineering technologies,
including insect resistance (Bt toxin) and glyphosate resistance, to
vegetable and fruit seeds. Seminis is developing Roundup Ready lettuce
(engineered to tolerate Monsanto's Roundup herbicide, active ingredient
glyphosate); if approved for sale, the lettuce could enter supermarkets as
early as 2003. Work is also under way to develop Roundup Ready tomatoes.

Seminis is currently field testing many of its genetically engineered crops.
In California alone, Seminis is testing or has recently tested plots of
glyphosate-resistant lettuce, peas, cucumbers, and tomatoes plus a wide
variety of fungus-, insect-, and virus-resistant vegetables. Among its
activities in other states, Seminis has planted or is currently testing
insect-resistant tomatoes in Florida and glyphosate-tolerant lettuce in
Georgia and New Jersey.

One of Seminis' genetically engineered products, a virus-resistant squash,
is already being grown commercially. Developed by Asgrow, the first
transgenic squash was approved for commercial production in 1994. A second
variety, with resistance to three viruses, was approved in 1996 and a third
is now being field tested. Domestic squash has a number of wild relatives in
the United States. Thus a real threat exists of genetic pollution, in which
the trait for virus resistance could spread to wild relatives creating
"super weeds" with a competitive advantage. Asgrow's tests for ecological
safety have been criticized as entirely inadequate by ecologists and
organizations such as the Union of Concerned Scientists, but were accepted
by the U.S. Department of Agriculture as sufficient for approving commercial
cultivation of the crop.

Seminis' 1999 prospectus states that "the application of genetic
improvements to crop plants has provided greater value to growers which can
be captured by the seed industry through higher prices and greater demand."
An illustration is Seminis' long shelf life tomato seeds, which sell for
$5,200 per pound, contrasting with $1,400 per pound for traditional
varieties. Another way Seminis expects to profit from genetic engineering is
by producing a "reallocation of grower spending": farmers will spend less on
agricultural chemicals and therefore will be willing to pay more for seeds.

Source: "Expanding the Biotech Frontier -- Seminis Vegetable Seeds," Global
Pesticide Campaigner, December 1999.

===========================================
Pesticide Action Network North America (PANNA)
49 Powell St., Suite 500, San Francisco, CA 94102 USA
Phone: (415) 981-1771
Fax: (415) 981-1991
Email: panna@panna.org
Web: http://www.panna.org
===========================================




From kampy@netins.net Tue Feb 01 18:42:09 2000
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From: Marie Kamphefner <kampy@netins.net>
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(snip)

He didn't mention how long e-coli lives outside the body. 

(snip)  I was under the impression that e-coli was everywhere outside.

Marie


From farmsted@cfw.com Tue Feb 01 18:42:33 2000
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Organization: Bittersweet Farmstead
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References: <LYR100886-34803-2000.01.31-12.41.45--astevens#ee.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98956-35034-2000.02.01-12.28.02--farmsted#cfw.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Thanks for the offer. Looking forward to it. Address below.

Jeff Ishee
Bittersweet Farmstead
P.O. Box 52
Middlebrook, VA 24459

*****************************************
Andrew Stevens wrote:
> 
> Hi. I'm the editor of American Small Farm. Email me your street address
> and I'll put you on our 3-free-issues list. Then you can decide if you
> want to subscribe to our magazine.
> 
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From ripley@iglou.com Tue Feb 01 18:51:44 2000
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Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 18:48:52 -0500
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: "Dawn M. Ripley" <ripley@iglou.com>
Subject: Re: freezing and value added


At 12:57 PM 02/01/2000 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>  and yes, you can have your own
>>family kitchen certified for "some types" of food service.
>
>Jeff et al,
>
>This is NOT possible, in fact forbidden in law, in California.  Probably OK
>in every other state, though.
>
>Marcie A. Rosenzweig
>Full Circle Organic Farm
>Auburn, CA
>
>
>

Likewise illegal in Indiana and Kentucky.  Sigh.

Dawn



******************************

Dawn M. Ripley
Holdfast Farm
5561 Budd Road
New Albany, Indiana  47150-9109
(812) 949-9008					

ripley@iglou.com
www.members.iglou.com/ripley


From ripley@iglou.com Tue Feb 01 19:00:23 2000
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Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 18:57:35 -0500
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: "Dawn M. Ripley" <ripley@iglou.com>
Subject: Re: Chat??


At 06:31 PM 02/01/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>Thanks Leigh!  I think I'll go pour out my juice now!
>
>Switching topics, it seems we're all using email to chat-not that "I"
>mind (being the chatty one!), should we set up a chat time/room
>somewhere/somehow??  And schedule regular times/topics to do it??  I
>know I mentioned this on the CSA-L list & had several positive
>responses to it.  Only problem is I can't file your chat comments (am
>I the only one who does this??).  Might save mailbox space for some.
>I'm not talking chit-chat, but meaningful conversation to delve into
>these other topics we keep skimming.
>

Hey, Liz--

I, for one, would rather keep the conversations in e-mail, where I can save
significant messages and forward the same to others who may not yet be on
this listserver.  Besides, information might be conveyed in a chat room that
wouldn't make it to the entire list, and that would be to everyone's detriment.

Just MHO,

Dawn



******************************

Dawn M. Ripley
Holdfast Farm
5561 Budd Road
New Albany, Indiana  47150-9109
(812) 949-9008					

ripley@iglou.com
www.members.iglou.com/ripley


From pike@always-online.com Tue Feb 01 19:00:43 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
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References: <LYR98963-35110-2000.02.01-14.28.13--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: fence posts
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 19:00:41 -0500
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Speaking from one woman to another, yes, excuse yourself guys, I can't
physically pound in those posts with a mallet.  After holding posts
for 2 hours, just like Rose did, I figured I could get my vibrations
elsewhere.  So now I cheat.  (Necessity is really the mother of
invention for women farmers.)  I bought an auger for my cordless
drill.   It goes 24" deep which is all I usually need.  This only
works for t-posts.  You might need to drill the hole 2-3 times, but
then you can pound it in more easily, all on your very own!  Every
farm should come complete with an  Arnold Schwartzenegger,
at least for women farmers ; ) !

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC



From gcr@rhealiving.com Tue Feb 01 19:10:32 2000
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From: "Donna Fezler" <gcr@rhealiving.com>
To: "'market farming'" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: RE: E. coli
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 18:10:15 -0600
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E.coli is normal flora in the intestine.  It is only found where there has
bee fecal contamination.

Donna Fezler
GCR
Jacksonville, IL

http://www.rhealiving.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Marie Kamphefner [mailto:kampy@netins.net]
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 5:38 PM
To: market farming
Subject: Re:


(snip)

He didn't mention how long e-coli lives outside the body.

(snip)  I was under the impression that e-coli was everywhere outside.

Marie


---
You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: gcr@rhealiving.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to
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From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Tue Feb 01 19:12:32 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: Three New Resources Now Online at the ATTRA Website
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 18:12:45 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
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New Online Resources at ATTRA
-----------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:52:54 -0600
From: Steve Diver <steved@ncatark.uark.edu>
To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
-
Principles of Sustainable Weed Management for Croplands
http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/weed.html

Abstract: 

Weeds are invited guests into agricultural fields as the result of
management decisions and defying nature's principles. Managing
croplands in tune with nature's principles makes for fewer and less 
costly weed problems. Strategies which utilize allelopathy, 
intercropping, crop rotations reduce weeds considerably. A weed-free 
design is discussed. A number of other weed control strategies are 
discussed. Additional resources are listed at the end of the 
publication. 

The author is Preston Sullivan, agronomy specialist.  
-

Holistic Management A Whole-Farm Decision Making Framework
http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/holistic.html

Abstract:

This publication serves as an introduction to holistic management and 
provides resources for further information. Holistic Management is 
a decision making framework that assists farmers and others in  
establishing a long-term goal, a detailed financial plan, a 
biological plan for the landscape and a monitoring program to assess 
progress toward the goal. Holistic Management helps managers to ask 
the right questions and guides them in setting priorities. In 
holistic financial planning, profit is planned at the beginning of 
the year. This is in stark contrast to conventional financial 
planning where the net profit is often non-existent or a small amount 
left over once expenses are accounted for. 

The author is Preston Sullivan, agronomy specialist and Holistic
Management teacher. 
-

Intercropping Principles and Production Practices
http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/intercrop.html

Abstract

Intercropping offers farmers the opportunity to engage nature's 
principle of diversity on their farms. Plant spatial arrangements, 
planting rates, and maturity dates must be considered when planning 
intercrops. Intercrops can be more productive than growing pure 
stands. Many different intercrop systems are discussed including 
mixed intercropping, strip cropping and traditional intercropping
arrangements. Pest management benefits can also be realized from 
intercropping due to increased diversity. Harvesting options for 
intercrops include hand harvest, machine harvest for on-farm feed and 
animal harvest of the standing crop.

The author is Preston Sullivan, agronomy specialist.
-

==============================================
From: 
Appropriate Technology Transfer for Rural Areas - ATTRA 
http://www.attra.org 
==============================================




Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu


From london@metalab.unc.edu Tue Feb 01 19:20:39 2000
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On Tue, 1 Feb 2000, Dawn M. Ripley wrote:

> I, for one, would rather keep the conversations in e-mail, where I can save
> significant messages and forward the same to others who may not yet be on
> this listserver.  Besides, information might be conveyed in a chat room that
> wouldn't make it to the entire list, and that would be to everyone's detriment.

I agree completely. Let's keep discussion right here in market-farming.
There's too much that's too valuable and interesting to lose any to
other lists, newsgroups or chatrooms.

Re: Chatrooms - 
ICQ is wonderful. Get ICQ 99b to run it. I am 
Lawrence London, lflondon@mindspring.com, 
dirtfarmer, ICQ user number 27930345 if anyone
wants to contact me 



From ThymeForEwe@nemaine.com Tue Feb 01 19:28:25 2000
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Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 19:30:32 -0500
From: Robin & Steve Follette <ThymeForEwe@nemaine.com>
Organization: Thyme For Ewe Farm
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> Is it crazy to think about standing on a ladder or something to pound in
> posts?

We dug one foot holes with pick and shovel.  I stood the posts in the
holes.  My husband stood in the back of the truck and  pounded them in
another foot with a sledge hammer.

Robin

Thyme For Ewe Farm
Farm fresh vegetables and meats.
http://www.nemaine.com/organic



From grandad@grandadsfarm.com Tue Feb 01 19:46:53 2000
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> > Is it crazy to think about standing on a ladder or something to pound in
> > posts?
> 
> We dug one foot holes with pick and shovel.  I stood the posts in the
> holes.  My husband stood in the back of the truck and  pounded them in
> another foot with a sledge hammer.
> 
> Robin
> 

	There is a tool for driving steel fence posts called a steel
post driver.  it is a 3 inch piece of steel pipe with a weight
inside the top end.  It slides onto the post. You raise the
driver up and drop it.  the weighted pipe slides down the post
and the post is forced into the ground.  Like many tools you can
make the job easy or difficult, if you try to manhandle the tool
you will wear yourself out.  Just lift the driver and let it
drop.  
-- 
From mailto:grandad@grandadsfarm.com and 
the Home of Grandad's Farm Magazine 
in the beautiful suburbs of Columbia, Missouri
http://www.grandadsfarm.com/

From whistle@halcyon.com Tue Feb 01 19:48:11 2000
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Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 16:45:36 -0800
Subject: Re: fence posts
From: "Shelley Pasco" <whistle@halcyon.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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I hate to break it to all of you and your neat ways of pounding in steel 
Tposts, but several types of "drivers" are available on the market. Almost
all consist of a steel tube, with or without handles, that fits over the top
of the post. You slide the pounder over the top and use the gravitational
force of the pounder, plus a little bicep power, to pound the posts in. I
can do this for hours if need be, and get lots of posts and the wire put
together in short time.
Shelley
Whistling Train Farm


----------
>From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
>To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
>Subject: Re: fence posts
>Date: Tue, Feb 1, 2000, 4:00 PM
>

> Speaking from one woman to another, yes, excuse yourself guys, I can't
> physically pound in those posts with a mallet.  After holding posts
> for 2 hours, just like Rose did, I figured I could get my vibrations
> elsewhere.  So now I cheat.  (Necessity is really the mother of
> invention for women farmers.)  I bought an auger for my cordless
> drill.   It goes 24" deep which is all I usually need.  This only
> works for t-posts.  You might need to drill the hole 2-3 times, but
> then you can pound it in more easily, all on your very own!  Every
> farm should come complete with an  Arnold Schwartzenegger,
> at least for women farmers ; ) !
>
> Liz
> Morningstar Gardens
> Pollocksville NC
>
>
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: whistle@halcyon.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
> 

From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Tue Feb 01 19:58:12 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: fence posts
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 19:57:41 -0800
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Oh, yes.  I fogot about those drivers.  We got one.  It works, but the other
problem is we have rocky ground.

So, what we'll do when we have to do those "T" posts again is get one of
those augur-type machines - you can rent them.  Make the holes, insert the
posts, plumb them, pour the concrete and viola!

Rose


From ThymeForEwe@nemaine.com Tue Feb 01 19:59:23 2000
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From: Robin & Steve Follette <ThymeForEwe@nemaine.com>
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> We dug one foot holes with pick and shovel.  I stood the posts in the
> > holes.  My husband stood in the back of the truck and  pounded them in
> > another foot with a sledge hammer.
> >
>         There is a tool for driving steel fence posts called a steel
> post driver.  it is a 3 inch piece of steel pipe with a weight
> inside the top end.

I should have included what we use for posts.  Sorry about that.  They're
not metal.  They're cedar we cut from a corner of our land.

--
Robin

Thyme For Ewe Farm
Farm fresh vegetables and meats.
http://www.nemaine.com/organic



From kampy@netins.net Tue Feb 01 20:01:18 2000
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Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 18:56:48 -0600
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From: Marie Kamphefner <kampy@netins.net>
Subject: Seed Starting
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What growing medium do you organic growers use to start seeds in?    And
what do you fertilize the young plants to help them grow before you set
them out?

Marie Kamphefner


From grandad@grandadsfarm.com Tue Feb 01 20:18:19 2000
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> Oh, yes.  I fogot about those drivers.  We got one.  It works, but the other
> problem is we have rocky ground.

	I once saw a pneumatic steel post driver demonstrated at a farm
show a few years ago.  They were driving steel posts into the
asphalt driveway. 
-- 
From mailto:grandad@grandadsfarm.com and 
the Home of Grandad's Farm Magazine 
in the beautiful suburbs of Columbia, Missouri
http://www.grandadsfarm.com/

From pike@always-online.com Tue Feb 01 20:18:33 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-35207-2000.02.01-19.48.08--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: fence posts
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 20:19:52 -0500
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Thanks, Shelley-I'll order one now-wasn't sure if I could do it.  I
bought the auger when I couldn't find one of these & I needed the
posts in that day.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC


From marc@aculink.net Tue Feb 01 20:28:36 2000
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Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 18:22:36 -0700
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References: <LYR98963-35139-2000.02.01-15.57.36--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99061-35163-2000.02.01-17.12.00--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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..snip..

>  Maybe they wouldn't do this to farmers.  But then again,
> in these litigious times, I wouldn't bet the farm on it.
..snip..

This, again, validates that liability insurance is wise.

Marc

From pike@always-online.com Tue Feb 01 20:45:00 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Rock Phosphate
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 20:46:30 -0500
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I posted this else where, then was advised to post it to mf.  Can
someone help me out?!  I'm freaking out here!   We were discussing
rock phosphate, which I applied last spring-1/2 ton to 1/2 acre-per
soil test recommendation.

> I was very adamant when I ordered  that it be mined rock
phosphate-nothing more, >nothing less.  I was assured again upon
delivery that this is what I received.  Nothing >on the bags indicated
anything except 46% phosphates which--oh gees, I just looked >it up.
Damn!  Mono ammonium phosphate!  Okay, I'm screwed.
>so does this mean I'm no longer organic??

or could be certified??

I bought this from local Royster-Clark dealer,  paid $137.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC



From marc@aculink.net Tue Feb 01 20:48:46 2000
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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References: <LYR98963-35139-2000.02.01-15.57.36--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99061-35163-2000.02.01-17.12.00--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99061-35216-2000.02.01-20.28.36--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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On another newsgroup we discussed liability and the thread
is contained in an archive on Onelist.net.

Various responses:

Some folks:

will not hire minors

will allow minors only if their parents are present

will not hire anyone

will not allow males and females to work together without
supervision

will require use of farm supplied and agency approved tools
and clothes

have insurance

do not have insurance but rely on good will

will only hire insured and licensed contractors

Etc. If a person is interested contact me off list and I
will be happy to direct them to the archive location that
contains these discussions.

Marc

From debumper@juno.com Tue Feb 01 21:07:13 2000
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To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 19:49:12 -0600
Subject: Re: fence posts and post drivers
Message-ID: <20000201.202504.-866641.16.debumper@juno.com>
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From: Steve D Danielson <debumper@juno.com>


The post driver i use has to be pulled down on the post...hard...you
would stand there all day waiting for the weight of it to drive a post in
hard ground...however...it beats using a maul and it is a one person
job...
a word of caution...if you go to fast you can raise the driver over the
top of the post and it will smack something...usually your face...with
the same force it would have hit the post with...
still a lot safer than a sledge...i chipped pieces the size of quarters
off of posts with a sledge and was just lucky they didn't hit an eye...if
you use a maul or sledge...wear eye protection...
the best time to drive wood posts is in the spring when the frost goes
out and the ground is soft...use a real post maul with a large head
rather than the small headed sledge...it won't beat the top of the post
up

From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Tue Feb 01 21:13:46 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: Re: Rock Phosphate
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 20:13:55 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
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On Tue, 1 Feb 2000 20:46:30 -0500, "Elizabeth Pike"
<pike@always-online.com> wrote:


>anything except 46% phosphates which--oh gees, I just looked >it up.
>Damn!  Mono ammonium phosphate!  Okay, I'm screwed.
>>so does this mean I'm no longer organic??
>I bought this from local Royster-Clark dealer,  paid $137.

Now that I remember a conversation with a mining engineer
mono-ammonium phosphate is the product of the natural breakdown
of rock phosphate. It is natural and organic. It is also synthesized,
still organic but not "O"-word certifiable according to current
"O"-word regs.

Am I right? 
Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu


From sbeerman@ucinet.com Tue Feb 01 21:35:44 2000
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HI Liz, I think (Mono) Ammonium phosphate is:  Total nitrogen N% 11
 Available phosphoric Acid P2O5%-48
Combined Calcium Ca% 1.4
Combined Sulfur S% 2.6
May be it was Superphosphate-double or triple. it's  Available phosphoric Acid P2O5%-42-46

Combined Calcium Ca%12-14
Combined Sulfur S% 1
I can't believe someone deliver the other with out the bag being marked, it's against the
law for one thing. Good luck. Sandie


From lh@pressroom.com Tue Feb 01 21:49:27 2000
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 <LYR98980-35150-2000.02.01-16.22.59--lh#pressroom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu
 >
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:49:42 -0500
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Leigh Hauter <lh@pressroom.com>
Subject: Re: fence posts


wait until after a nice rain to drive t-posts. It's a completely different
world than dry soil.  A nice inch soaking lets t-post just slip into the
ground.  3 or 4 easy  hits with a sledge hammer rather than 7 or 8 hard
ones.  I can put up enough posts for a 330 foot roll of woven wire by my
self in no time at all when the ground is wet.

From marc@aculink.net Tue Feb 01 21:52:43 2000
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Steve D Danielson wrote:
> 
> The post driver i use has to be pulled down on the post...hard...you
> would stand there all day waiting for the weight of it to drive a post in
> hard ground...however...it beats using a maul and it is a one person
> job...

..snip..

There are several sizes and weights available for purchase.
The heavier ones that need less down force from peoples arms
are usually around 20 to 35 dollars. They will have more
weight and a longer pipe.

MArc

From mjb@premier1.net Tue Feb 01 22:06:30 2000
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Subject: Re: Rock Phosphate/ organic certification?
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 19:01:20 -0800
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----- Original Message -----
From: Elizabeth Pike <pike@always-online.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 5:46 PM
Subject: Rock Phosphate

Liz:

Since organic certification regs vary from state to state and agency to
agency it probably would be best to check with your state certifier and see.
Michaele
Growing Things
> >
>


From mjb@premier1.net Tue Feb 01 22:06:33 2000
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----- Original Message -----
From: Rose & Fred Lieberman <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 4:15 PM
Subject: Is scab species specific?


Don't know much about your questions, but check your soil ph.  Scab can be
virtually eliminated by monitoring the ph.  Potatoes like it acidic.
Michaele
Growing Things
Carnation Wa


From mjb@premier1.net Tue Feb 01 22:06:50 2000
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References: <LYR98946-35212-2000.02.01-20.01.17--mjb#premier1.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Seed Starting
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----- Original Message -----
From: Marie Kamphefner <kampy@netins.net>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 4:56 PM
Subject: Seed Starting


> What growing medium do you organic growers use to start seeds in?    And
> what do you fertilize the young plants to help them grow before you set
> them out?
>
I use the modified soil mix for soil blocks given in Eliot Coleman's book.
I never did get the mix he gives to work right for me, so I've changed the
quantities of some things and added others.  It consists of peat, sand,
soil, compost and organic ammendments.

Michaele
Growing Things
Carnation Wa>
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: mjb@premier1.net
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>


From mjb@premier1.net Tue Feb 01 22:08:05 2000
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References: <LYR98946-35207-2000.02.01-19.48.08--mjb#premier1.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: fence posts
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----- Original Message -----
From: Shelley Pasco <whistle@halcyon.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: fence posts


> I hate to break it to all of you and your neat ways of pounding in steel
> Tposts, but several types of "drivers" are available on the market.
> ----------
> >
Yup, I've been pounding in posts this way since I was a teen mending fences
for my horses.  I'm still the fence person in the house even though I'm
getting old and gray and weak jointed.  With a post driver I can even put up
12 foot bean posts by myself if I need to.  But we're really strong here in
Washington.  It also helps to have moist soil and no rocks!
Michaele
Growing Things
Carnation WA



From sojournr@missouri.org Tue Feb 01 22:53:18 2000
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Subject: Re: fence posts
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Rose & Fred Lieberman wrote:
> 
> Oh, well, I don't know if it's crazy to stand on a ladder and pound, but I
> can tell you my experience.
> 
> I held the tall green heavy "t" post while my husband wielded the mallet.
> (I was less than thrilled about this arrangement, but with my shoulders'
> penchant for locking up, he got the "wielding" job).
> 
> Well, the first hit, the vibrations travelled down the pole and hit my hands
> and travelled to my wrist.  I saw stars!

What you need to drive those fence posts is a fence post driver.  It
looks like a big piece of pipe, closed at the top end, with two handles
on either side.  You lift it over the top of the post, then you just
lift it up and let it drop onto the top of the post.  The post pretty
much drives itself (if the soil is moderately moist, anyway, probably
would be much harder in dry clay soil which is like concrete).

Some of them have "shock absorbers" on them; they cost about $15 more. 
Any farm supply place should carry them.  I've used them to set T-posts,
by myself, and I'm 5'2", 41 years old, female, out of shape, and have a
repetitive stress injury in one shoulder and a weak wrist from an old
break on the other side.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From BBGREGSON@cs.com Tue Feb 01 23:12:46 2000
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From: BBGREGSON@cs.com
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Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 23:13:02 EST
Subject: Re: Permanent Raised Beds
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Lawrence London wrote about tilling only once in 15 years.  That is not clear 
to me.  How do you prepare seedbeds?  How do you incorporate green manures 
and crop residue?  It also sounds like a lot of soil amendment usage.  We 
rototill lightly to prepare for cover crop in the fall (if crops can be 
harvested in time) and then again for seedbed preparation in the spring (for 
transplants in most cases).  More explanation will be helpful!  Thanks.
Bob and Bonnie Gregson, Island Meadow Farm, Vashon, WA

From fullcircle@jps.net Tue Feb 01 23:13:19 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: fence posts


Leigh says

>wait until after a nice rain to drive t-posts. It's a completely different
>world than dry soil.  A nice inch soaking lets t-post just slip into the
>ground.  3 or 4 easy  hits with a sledge hammer rather than 7 or 8 hard
>ones.  I can put up enough posts for a 330 foot roll of woven wire by my
>self in no time at all when the ground is wet.

We've been known to drag a hose or water bucket around when we're doing posts.

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From mjb@premier1.net Tue Feb 01 23:26:27 2000
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References: <LYR98946-35110-2000.02.01-14.28.13--mjb#premier1.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: fence posts
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----- Original Message -----
From: Nancy Haycock <nhaycock@pratt.edu>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 11:33 AM
Subject: fence posts


> Hi Nancy:

If your ground is soft you can do it by yourself with a fence post driver.
It'll be a breeze with two people.  When I have to put up posts that are
taller than I am, I lean the post horizontal to the ground, slide the driver
over, stand on a five gallon bucket and tap until I get the post secure
enough for some hard drives.   Just be sure to secure your corners either
with wooden posts or tie wires (guy wires) attached to the t posts.   I've
also been known to soften the ground a day or so before if I need to put
fencing up and it hasn't rained for awhile.
I'm not sure, but is 7' gonna be tall enough or are you thinking of angling
or maybe doing a double fence?  (I'm thinking 9' total of post).  The only
deer fence I've used has been a low one with peanut butter on the foil, so
I've never researched just how high a deer will jump although I know it can
be pretty high.
Hope that helps.
Michaele
Growing Things
Carnation Wa


From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Tue Feb 01 23:38:09 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: Re: Permanent Raised Beds
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 22:38:15 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
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On Tue, 1 Feb 2000 23:13:02 EST, BBGREGSON@cs.com wrote:


>Lawrence London wrote about tilling only once in 15 years.  That is not clear 

That part was written by Alex MacGregor. I was only advocating a
one-time (if possible) deep tillage involving major upheaval/moving of
most of the dirt in the garden down to 8-24" in depth.

>to me.  How do you prepare seedbeds?  How do you incorporate green manures 
>and crop residue?  It also sounds like a lot of soil amendment usage.  We 

Light tillage. Read Art Biggert's post about that technique.

The object is not to do major turning of  the soil as in deep
rototilling or plowing (that, of course, would destroy the raised
bed).
Heavy tillage destroys the soil crumb structure, particularly if you
have heavy clay or silt soils.Earthworms and some microorganisms
suffer major setbacks too. Studies have revealed that earthworm
populations dramatically decrease in farm fields when plowing and
cultivating or rototilling occur on too frequent intervals.

>rototill lightly to prepare for cover crop in the fall (if crops can be 
>harvested in time) and then again for seedbed preparation in the spring (for 
>transplants in most cases).  More explanation will be helpful!  Thanks.
>Bob and Bonnie Gregson, Island Meadow Farm, Vashon, WA
>

Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu


From cshel@usit.net Tue Feb 01 23:48:56 2000
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Hi Leigh,

I am new here, have been lurking for awhile.  I have read that Lion scat will deter
deer.  You can get this from your local zoo if you have one.  Some are actually marketing
it for sale.  Place around the perimeter of the gardens.....

Cheri
Sweet Hollow Farm

Leigh Hauter wrote

> This worked great all summer but in the fall when the forest started
> turning brown and our fall irrigated greens looked so, so green, there was
> no keeping them out.
>
> Does anyone have a fool proof solution.


From bennett@frognet.net Tue Feb 01 23:54:52 2000
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>looks like a big piece of pipe, closed at the top end, with two handles
>on either side.  You lift it over the top of the post, then you just
>lift it up and let it drop onto the top of the post.  The post pretty
>much drives itself (if the soil is moderately moist, anyway, probably
>would be much harder in dry clay soil which is like concrete).
>
Yeah, this is what I used for a long time too, until one day 
I found an even better way.  Now I hold the post and hubby
just pushes it down in the groud using the front-end loader
bucket of the new tractor I bought him. :-)  Of course,
$25,000 for JUST a post driver would be kind of
expensive, so he does have to use it for other things
too, like mowing, hauling manure, dragging logs.....



From mjb@premier1.net Tue Feb 01 23:58:39 2000
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From: "Michaele Blakely" <mjb@premier1.net>
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Subject: Re: Permanent Raised Beds
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Lawrence F. London, Jr. <lflondon@mindspring.com> wrote in message =
news:<LYR98946-35243-2000.02.01-23.38.08--mjb#premier1.net@franklin.oit.u=
nc.edu>...
> >=20
> Heavy tillage destroys the soil crumb structure, particularly if you
> have heavy clay or silt soils.Earthworms and some microorganisms
> suffer major setbacks too. Studies have revealed that earthworm
> populations dramatically decrease in farm fields when plowing and
> cultivating or rototilling occur on too frequent intervals.
>=20
You know I just haven't found that to be the case as far as earthworms =
are concerned in my fields.  Granted I am not a tractor person, but I do =
use a rototiller quite a bit.  I had heard of earthworm populations =
decreasing and thought every time I pulled that chain I was becoming a =
mass murderer contributing to the extinction of all those squirmy guys =
and my fields would never be as healthy as they should be.  I finally =
figured out that the worms disappear when the moisture level in the soil =
begins sinking.  It wasn't me after all.  After a good rain, those guys =
are back.  I don't know as much about the microorganisms ability to =
survive.  I would imagine it is much more difficult since they are =
symbiotic to the root structure of the plant most of the time, but I =
would think that applications of composts, teas, and cover crops would =
help keep those guys in multitudes in the soil as well.
I'm wondering if the studies showing earthworm decline were done on =
organic soils with farmers practicing good stewardship or if it was done =
on soils with farmers  farming conventionally?  I'm thinking there was =
more to just the plowing, tilling that caused the loss of aerobics in =
the soil.
Michaele
Growing Things
Carnation WA
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: mjb@premier1.net
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to =
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>Lawrence F. London, Jr. &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:lflondon@mindspring.com">lflondon@mindspring.com</A>&gt; =
wrote in=20
message <A href=3D"news:<">news:&lt;</A><A=20
href=3D"mailto:LYR98946-35243-2000.02.01-23.38.08--mjb#premier1.net@frank=
lin.oit.unc.edu">LYR98946-35243-2000.02.01-23.38.08--mjb#premier1.net@fra=
nklin.oit.unc.edu</A>&gt;...<BR>&gt;=20
&gt; <BR>&gt; Heavy tillage destroys the soil crumb structure, =
particularly if=20
you<BR>&gt; have heavy clay or silt soils.Earthworms and some=20
microorganisms<BR>&gt; suffer major setbacks too. Studies have revealed =
that=20
earthworm<BR>&gt; populations dramatically decrease in farm fields when =
plowing=20
and<BR>&gt; cultivating or rototilling occur on too frequent =
intervals.<BR>&gt;=20
</DIV>
<DIV>You know I just haven't found that to be the case as far as =
earthworms are=20
concerned in my fields.&nbsp; Granted I am not a tractor person, but I =
do use a=20
rototiller quite a bit.&nbsp; I had heard of earthworm populations =
decreasing=20
and thought every time I pulled that chain I was becoming a mass =
murderer=20
contributing to the extinction of all those squirmy guys and my fields =
would=20
never be as healthy as they should be.&nbsp; I finally figured out that =
the=20
worms disappear when the moisture level in the soil begins =
sinking.&nbsp; It=20
wasn't me after all.&nbsp; After a good rain, those guys are back.&nbsp; =
I don't=20
know as much about the microorganisms ability to survive.&nbsp; I would =
imagine=20
it is much more difficult since they are symbiotic to the root structure =
of the=20
plant most of the time, but I would think that applications of composts, =
teas,=20
and cover crops would help keep those guys in multitudes in the soil as=20
well.</DIV>
<DIV>I'm wondering if the studies showing earthworm decline were done on =
organic=20
soils with farmers practicing good stewardship or if it was done on =
soils with=20
farmers&nbsp; farming conventionally?&nbsp; I'm thinking there was more =
to just=20
the plowing, tilling that caused the loss of aerobics in the soil.</DIV>
<DIV>Michaele</DIV>
<DIV>Growing Things</DIV>
<DIV>Carnation WA<BR>&gt; ---<BR>&gt; You are currently subscribed to=20
market-farming as: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:mjb@premier1.net">mjb@premier1.net</A><BR>&gt; To =
unsubscribe send=20
a blank email to <A=20
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Hello from the Great Northwest!

Please add my name and address to your list for 3 free issues.

Thanks!

Michael Stucky
Millennium Farms
1504 NW 299th St
Ridgefield, WA  98642

From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Wed Feb 02 00:29:02 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: Re: Permanent Raised Beds
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 23:29:10 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
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On Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:05:49 -0800, "Michaele Blakely"
<mjb@premier1.net> wrote:

>Lawrence F. London, Jr. <lflondon@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:
>> Heavy tillage destroys the soil crumb structure, particularly if you
>> have heavy clay or silt soils.Earthworms and some microorganisms
>> suffer major setbacks too. Studies have revealed that earthworm
>> populations dramatically decrease in farm fields when plowing and
>> cultivating or rototilling occur on too frequent intervals.

>
You know I just haven't found that to be the case as far as earthworms
are concerned in my fields. 
>

Its about their habitat - maybe fields with adequate levels of
moisture and organic matter allow them to be more resilient and bounce
back from having their habitat scattered to the winds.

>
Granted I am not a tractor person, but I do use a rototiller quite a
bit.  I had heard of earthworm populations decreasing and thought
every time I pulled that chain I was becoming a mass murderer
contributing to the extinction of all those squirmy guys and my fields
would never be as healthy as they should be.  I finally figured out
that the worms disappear when the moisture level in the soil begins
sinking.  It wasn't me after all.  After a good rain, those guys are 
>

That too but tillage destroys their habitat.

>
back.  I don't know as much about the microorganisms ability to
survive.  I would imagine it is much more difficult since they are
symbiotic to the root structure of the plant most of the time, but I
would think that applications of composts, teas, and cover crops would
help keep those guys in multitudes in the soil as well.
>

They still need time to adjust and settle in and build their colonies.

>
I'm wondering if the studies showing earthworm decline were done on 
organic soils with farmers practicing good stewardship or if it was
done on soils with farmers  farming conventionally?  I'm thinking
there was more to just the plowing, tilling that caused the loss of
aerobics in the soil.
>

I don't know about that but quite possibly on conventionally-farmed
fields. The organic firlds would make it possible for less reduction
of their populations.

LL
.

Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu


From grandad@grandadsfarm.com Wed Feb 02 01:59:24 2000
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Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 00:56:24 -0600
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> Any manual fence post advice?

	The slickest post driver I ever saw was my father in law's.  He
welded a 3 inch log piece of three inch pipe onto the bottom
rear edge of his front end loader.  I held the post in place
while he sat in the tractor and engaged the hydraulics down. 
The post slides right into the ground.  So all you need is a
$30,000 tractor with loader and two people.
-- 
From mailto:grandad@grandadsfarm.com and 
the Home of Grandad's Farm Magazine 
in the beautiful suburbs of Columbia, Missouri
http://www.grandadsfarm.com/

From suzyr@netos.com Wed Feb 02 02:21:24 2000
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References: 
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 >
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 23:21:03 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: suzyr@netos.com (Suzy Roth)
Subject: Re: Seed Starting
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>What growing medium do you organic growers use to start seeds in?

I grow starts for sale, and for space concerns I start seeds in plugs 
in a sterile peat based soiless mix, then uppot into a compost based 
potting soil when the starts are large enough to handle. Having 
compost in a potting soil is wonderful because it, of course, holds 
moisture and you don't have to constantly water pots of plants 
everytime the sun shines. Just be careful not to overwater.

>    And
>what do you fertilize the young plants to help them grow before you set
>them out?
>
I fertilize with a mix of fish fertilizer and Maxicrop. I use 
one-fourth what the directions on the bottles of fertilizer say to 
use and water my starts once a week after they have been in their 
pots for a week. Depending on how warm your greenhouse/growing area 
is, you might want to fertilize sooner--the plants will tell you! 
Last year I experimented with dipping the flats of plants in the 
fertilizer solution after watching how Michaele Blakely fertilizes 
her starts. This worked very well for soil blocks of tomatoes I was 
holding back before potting into 4-inch pots or gallons.

Suzy Roth
Thistle Ridge Farm and Gardens
Issaquah, WA


From pike@always-online.com Wed Feb 02 03:51:58 2000
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References: <LYR98963-35056-2000.02.01-12.50.57--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Permanent Raised Beds
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From: Rose & Fred Lieberman <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>

> When does one decide about making a raised bed permanent?

When you decide you're sick of remaking beds every year, or would
rather work with small tools & not tractors, or when you know
time/labor will only allow intensive growing, or you just don't have
"that" amount of land, or when you have enough beds to rotate what you
want to grow, or in your heart, without proof-not yet anyway,  you
feel you're destroying something precious & you find out you are!!
All that thriving life!!  It's all up to you!  Until January, my beds
had not been plowed/tilled/mechanically cultivated since 1993.  (Now
it's all plowed ready to bedded up again, which now won't happen until
next year-arrgghh!   I did wait to have it done while it was dry to
decrease, if at all possible, a great earthworm massacre.  I needed to
reorient the beds, kinda like moving furniture-hated like everything
to do it-I'm a die-hard no-tiller.)

> It always seemed to me - with no experience in permanent raised
beds - that
> over time the bed would become dense and lose its tilth, then you'd
have to
> go into the bed with a tiller of some kind, and that would be more
of a
> pain.
> What am I not understanding?

Properly prepared beds, when originally built, and all through
subsequent growing seasons, will not lose tilth if you are constantly
adding organic matter-cover cropping, mulching, composting, green
manures, decomposing crops, etc.   These are musts if you want the
beds to stay alive & not pack back down.  The single most important
activity you can do to permanent beds is to broadfork them, as
mentioned in earlier threads.   My beds started out 6" high, and 7
years later measured 8" high.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC



From pike@always-online.com Wed Feb 02 05:27:01 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <39917@market-farming> <LYR98963-35223-2000.02.01-21.13.45--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Rock Phosphate
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 05:28:32 -0500
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From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. >
> mono-ammonium phosphate is the product of the natural breakdown
> of rock phosphate. It is natural and organic. It is also
synthesized,
> still organic but not "O"-word certifiable according to current
> "O"-word regs.
>
> Am I right?

Prohibited by state certifiers-at least here in NC.  Somebody has hell
to pay.  I hope they're getting a good night's sleep.  I sure as hell
ain't.

Liz

Let us not forget that the cultivation of the earth is the most
important labor of man - Daniel Webster



From guldann@ix.netcom.com Wed Feb 02 07:02:24 2000
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Subject: Home commercial kitchen
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 07:06:21 -0800
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I live in Masschusetts and one is allowed to produce certain value added
products in one's kitchen after having been inspected by one's town health
department.  I quizzed one of the local inspectors about it.  Because I had
just read the regs I "knew" more than he.  But he was pleasant, he comes for
our yearly barn inspection.  Our only barn is a three sides pole barn which
houses the sheep and has a rarely used stall for horses which double duties
as a place for sick cows. But he and my husband walk the farm and have a
pleasant chat.  So it made me realize if you start with a nice guy and then
work with him it might not be too difficult.
My new kitchen is half done just a regular kitchen, but some of the codes
have "loop holes".  Should have 3 unit sink.  The third unit can be a
plastic basin.  Counters must be seamless my new formica types are(well one
side). Must wash dishes with either heat or chemicals.  Some other codes
would be harder but I think its to the discretion of local inspector, such
as having a self closing door on an ajacent bathroom, I guess so you can
kick door open and not touch it?
Oh well I just want to make jelly and relish and maybe not this year anyway.
Good luck  Beth


From pike@always-online.com Wed Feb 02 07:16:39 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Rock Phosphate
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 07:18:13 -0500
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Been surfing all night.  MSDS on monoammonium phosphate & diammonium
phosphate (& all derivatives) say these products are white powders.
What I used were black granules.  I'm reading conflicting info on
every site I hit!  Local Royster-Clark is closed for week's vacation.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC


From rbfarr@erols.com Wed Feb 02 07:35:03 2000
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: carrots and horse manure
References: <LYR99136-35107-2000.02.01-14.17.36--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99215-35133-2000.02.01-15.05.31--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Holly:

Animal manures carry the possibility of e-coli.

Manure must be composted for at least four months to ensure pathogen
removal.

If you're certified organic, this is a requirement.

We had a great discussion about this on the Organic Gardening list and
the Food Safe list.

R.



From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Wed Feb 02 07:37:04 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Motivated deer...(Re: fence posts)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 07:36:11 -0800
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Someone mused about the height a deer will jump.

Too easily...4'
Easily...6'
A running start...8'
Well-motivated...10'+

For those unacquainted with deer behavior...

1.    They have to know the fence is there.  Don't put a fence line smack up
to the forest line or right next to the road.  Give them space to walk
around.

2.    They don't like new things nor do they like to be startled.  That's
where the pie plates and tinfoil strips and peanut butter come in.

3.    The scent of humans - barber shop hair, urine - gives them pause to be
circumspect and a desire to keep movin'.

Rose


From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Wed Feb 02 07:47:33 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: One (or 2) more questions...Re: Permanent Raised Beds
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 07:47:06 -0800
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Thank you all for responding to the raised bed question.  I've been
inspired!

For those who make permanent raised beds, do you "box" them in with
anything?  Wooden slats, concrete blocks, stone?

If you don't, what prevents them from eroding?

Also, how do you treat your pathways?  Do you mow them, mulch them, weed
them, nuke them?

Rose


From dorigreen00@hotmail.com Wed Feb 02 07:56:14 2000
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From: "Dori Green" <dorigreen00@hotmail.com>
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Sawdust as Mulch:
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 07:56:32 EST
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At this farm if it's carbon-based ("organic"), it gets offered to The Great 
Ghod Compost.  Sometimes I turn that compost, sometimes I just let it sit 
for three years.  Been experimenting with different methods, having good 
success this year with warming the barn by leaving a packed base in the 
run-in with a deep clean straw bed on top.  It works with goats, probably 
wouldn't with horses.

Everything gets mulched with finished compost.  Weeds are killed with thick 
blankets of finished compost on top of a layer of black-and-white newspaper.

The soil here is about 50% large rocks, 25% small rocks, 25% clay.  It was 
the only land within about 50 miles where chemicals had never been used, 
more important to me than tilth or fertility -- both of which I can fix 
within my own lifetime.  If all I had for composting was chicken feathers, 
it would improve this soil! <G>

And improving the soil is what I'm doing here.  Harvests are just a nice 
bonus.  Isn't that one of the biggest differences between organic and 
commercial agriculture?

Dori Green
Ash Grove Community Farm
Corning, NY

http://www.ic.org/agrove

Intentional Community with local and long-distance members
Chemical-free fruits, vegetables, herbs, and flowers
Dairy and pack and draft goats
Free-range chickens, ducks, and geese (watch where you step)
Affordable housing cooperative
Regional farmer's marketing cooperative
Partnerships
Dried herbs and American-grown Black Tea by mail-order



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From sojournr@missouri.org Wed Feb 02 07:58:55 2000
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Robert Farr wrote:
> 
> Holly:
> 
> Animal manures carry the possibility of e-coli.

Not in my livestock.

> If you're certified organic, this is a requirement.

I have even less interest in becoming "certified organic" than I did
before.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From igg@igg.com Wed Feb 02 08:00:22 2000
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References: 
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 >
 <LYR99014-34731-2000.01.31-08.06.16--fsfarm#mufn.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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 > <LYR99014-34761-2000
 <LYR98999-35073-2000.02.01-13.10.52--igg#igg.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:02:16 -0400
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Allan Balliett <igg@igg.com>
Subject: Re: broadforks
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"


John Jeavons was one of the early popularizers of the broadfork. He 
gives plans for making one in his 'backyard minihomestead book' 
(title approximate!!) The forks he recommends are great monsters, 
designed by a pair of Berkeley engineers. He specifies the quality of 
steel used in the fork (angle iron, etc) Even a large man is not 
comfortable lifting one of these forks repeatedlly, so you drag it 
backwards along the bed until you get to the next bite point, adjust 
it perpendicular to the bed surface, jump on it with both feet, then 
throw your weight backwards to get the soil lift. Try this in stiff 
soil with the Smith and Hawken fork (which, btw, has much shorter 
tines -  - at least mine does) and you're likely to be lying flat on 
your back staring at the sky with two broken wooden handles in your 
hands. (Worse, of course, in my beds, which are studded with 1/2 inch 
rebar for poly hoops, an uncontrollable fall like that can lead to a 
fatal piercing.:-) Someone in MD fabricates the Jeavons forks. (Check 
with MOFFA) Last I hear, they were asking around $300 for one.

Hope this is helpful.

-Allan Balliett
Biodynamics Now!
csa@claymont.org



>  > I've been looking for a broad fork for some time.
>>
>>  Where can I find one - an affordable one (no Smith and Hawken for me),
>>  that is!
>>
>>  Robert.
>>
>
>We got ours from Smith and Hawken before they got quite so cute. Try:
>
>A.M Leonard
>800-543-8955
>I couldn't find it in the catalogue on hand now, but I am *almost* sure they
>have one
>
>Peaceful Valley Farm Supply
>888-784-1722
>Deep Spader, similar to a broadfork and Bio-fork
>
>Johnny's
>207-437-4395
>Eliot Coleman design Broadfork
>
>
>Jim and Jo
>The Community Farm Newsletter
>http://www.mufn.org/public/tcf
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Robert Farr <rbfarr@erols.com>
>To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
>Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 10:33 AM
>Subject: Re: Production methods: tillage, beds, rows, etc.
>
>
>>
>>
>>  ---
>>  You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: fsfarm@mufn.org
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>>
>
>
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-- 

From dorigreen00@hotmail.com Wed Feb 02 08:00:37 2000
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From: "Dori Green" <dorigreen00@hotmail.com>
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re:  We need to put you guys to work :-) 
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 08:00:49 EST
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Sounds like a great idea!  I'll volunteer to manage a couple of FAQ sections 
-- just let me know which ones need work.

Suggestion -- this would be a fabulous place to collect URL links -- for 
example, to relevant e-list websites.



Dori Green
Ash Grove Community Farm
Corning, NY

http://www.ic.org/agrove

Intentional Community with local and long-distance members
Chemical-free fruits, vegetables, herbs, and flowers
Dairy and pack and draft goats
Free-range chickens, ducks, and geese (watch where you step)
Affordable housing cooperative
Regional farmer's marketing cooperative
Partnerships
Dried herbs and American-grown Black Tea by mail-order

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From sojournr@missouri.org Wed Feb 02 08:05:03 2000
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I just found this site.  Prices on tools seem to run about $20 cheaper
(for things like Felco pruners and the ratchet loppers I've been looking
for) than other places I've looked at.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From sojournr@missouri.org Wed Feb 02 08:06:31 2000
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Sojourner wrote:
> 
> I just found this site.  Prices on tools seem to run about $20 cheaper
> (for things like Felco pruners and the ratchet loppers I've been looking
> for) than other places I've looked at.

Oooookaaaay, I can see already its going to be one of those days:

http://www.frostproof.com/welcome.html

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From igg@igg.com Wed Feb 02 08:10:26 2000
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Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:13:40 -0400
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Allan Balliett <igg@igg.com>
Subject: Re: Motivated deer...(Re: fence posts)
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>3.    The scent of humans - barber shop hair, urine - gives them pause to be
>circumspect and a desire to keep movin'.

Rose - In my recent experience, deer have become domestic animals, 
following house mice, norwegian rats, opposums, raccoons, coyotes and 
armadillos in modifying their traditional relationship with humankind 
to assure their own survival. After my expriences  this past season, 
for all I know, deer are ATTRACTED by human smells.

One thing I know for certain, Irish Spring Soap bars DO NOT deter the 
deer's interest in chard after September 15! :-)

-Allan Balliett
-- 

From sojournr@missouri.org Wed Feb 02 08:15:02 2000
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Bill Shoemaker wrote:
> 
> As I said before, the risk is slight, but real. Salmonella bacteria, a
> source of food poisoning, can be found in animal manure. There isn't any
> sense in taking any risk with raw manure when the manure can be composted to
> eliminate the risk.

The risk of being struck by a meteorite is also slight, but real.

So de we have any statistics on just what this slight but real risk is? 
Preferably some that take into account the difference between sources of
manure - say, separating out factory farm lagoon effluent from small
operations that deal with reasonable amounts of manure without letting
it sit around to become toxic sludge?

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From rbfarr@erols.com Wed Feb 02 08:20:23 2000
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Thanks, Allan.

I'll ask Doug Britt where to get this "Jeavons -style" broad fork.
That's exactly what I'm looking for.

R.



From pike@always-online.com Wed Feb 02 08:26:22 2000
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References: <LYR98963-35310-2000.02.02-07.47.32--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: One (or 2) more questions...Re: Permanent Raised Beds
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:27:52 -0500
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From: Rose & Fred Lieberman <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>

> For those who make permanent raised beds, do you "box" them in with
> anything?  Wooden slats, concrete blocks, stone?
> If you don't, what prevents them from eroding?

I don't use anything.  Every year I contemplate it, but decide against
it.  Cost for one thing, then deciding which is best, & I'm afraid it
will create more trouble/work than it's worth-such as cold soil,
drying out too quickly (we have more problems with drought than
moisture during active growing months), fireants love sided beds, etc.

In Jan-Feb, after lightly turning under cover crops,  I broadfork the
beds, then go around with the furrow attachment on my wheel hoe.  The
soil is light, moist & easily repositioned to form sloped sides.

> Also, how do you treat your pathways?  Do you mow them, mulch them,
weed
> them, nuke them?

All of the above at some point during the year!  I lay down corrugated
cardboard, mulch heavily over that, flame any persistent weeds (few
make it through the cardboard), & patrol with a hoe.  And there's
always mowing somewhere, anytime.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC



From pike@always-online.com Wed Feb 02 08:31:25 2000
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Subject: Re: Source for tools
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Thanks Holly!  Yeah, one of those days...

Liz


From dorigreen00@hotmail.com Wed Feb 02 08:36:35 2000
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From: "Dori Green" <dorigreen00@hotmail.com>
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re:  fence posts
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 08:36:47 EST
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Check with your county extension agent -- many states offer funding 
assistance to encourage rotational grazing pasture development (it might 
even be a federal program).  A rotational system can include a plan for some 
time spent by each field as a veggie garden!  A friend of mine got 50% paid 
by her county to put up about six miles of goat fence.

I use temporary fiberglass posts with four lines of electric tape powered by 
a $70 charger that runs on 4 rechargeable D batteries (stops most goats 
after I've baited it with peanut butter and foil, they don't bother it after 
a couple of tests).  After a test or two, I can hold horses in place by 
stringing yarn on the same posts.  They're beautiful but not as smart as 
goats.

Permanent woven fencing is going across the back side of my property and 
along both edges this year -- partly to contain the new LGD before I get it, 
mostly to deter those @^(*@^*% snowmobilers.  I'll section those with 
temporary electric to qualify the whole system for the county assistance.

For driving the big white locust posts, I hire the fencing guy.  $65 per 
hour for him and his crew and his $80,000 pneumatic truck.  Drill, place, 
whack and it's done -- about five minutes per post and could put that locust 
through concrete.  Which is a good thing; I've already told y'all about my 
land.  <G>



Dori Green
Ash Grove Community Farm
Corning, NY

http://www.ic.org/agrove

Intentional Community with local and long-distance members
Chemical-free fruits, vegetables, herbs, and flowers
Dairy and pack and draft goats
Free-range chickens, ducks, and geese (watch where you step)
Affordable housing cooperative
Regional farmer's marketing cooperative
Partnerships
Dried herbs and American-grown Black Tea by mail-order

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From igg@igg.com Wed Feb 02 08:36:55 2000
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Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:37:03 -0400
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Allan Balliett <igg@igg.com>
Subject: Re: One (or 2) more questions...Re: Permanent Raised Beds
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"


>Thank you all for responding to the raised bed question.  I've been
>inspired!
>
>For those who make permanent raised beds, do you "box" them in with
>anything?  Wooden slats, concrete blocks, stone?

I gravitate to the 'chinese-style' raised beds. No boxes or frames. I 
found that , besides being expensive and labor intensive,  frames are 
undesireable because the area where the soil touches the frame 
becomes a hiding place for slugs and other undesireables - and it 
promotes the overwintering of many pests.

I set up several 'cut and come again' salad green gardens last 
summer. These essentially have custom soil mixes in them. I put these 
in scrap wood frames and pay special attention to keep the soil 
worked up when I see shrinkage near the frames. Frames can be nice 
because they make adding fixtures for cloches, etc to much easier.

However, in real biointensive raised bed work, we just 'lift' the 
soil up and work it until we have a nice, slightly concave planting 
surface.



>
>If you don't, what prevents them from eroding?

If your organic matter is where it is supposed to be, and the surface 
of the bed it kept open through proper cultivation, there s.b. no 
erosion.


>
>Also, how do you treat your pathways?  Do you mow them, mulch them, weed
>them, nuke them?

I'm dreaming of growing white clover in mine, Rose. Currently, they 
are feedbags covered by municipal woodchips.



>
>Rose
>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: igg@igg.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
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From dorigreen00@hotmail.com Wed Feb 02 08:40:28 2000
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From: "Dori Green" <dorigreen00@hotmail.com>
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re:  freezing and value added
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 08:40:45 EST
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Before spending money on a commercial kitchen, check with your area's jobs 
development council.  Many rural areas are working to develop small-scale 
processing opportunities -- incubator kitchens, rented kitchen space that 
can be shared by groups of gardeners, etc.

It's looking like the little licensed kitchen at next door's auction barn 
and 3D archery range might pass muster for canning and freezing operations.  
Won't hurt quality at all that it's less than 100 feet from my main field!  
But before we sign any rental agreements we're making completely sure that 
our plans pass all of the requirements of the health department, ag and 
markets, yadda yadda.

Dori Green
Ash Grove Community Farm
Corning, NY

http://www.ic.org/agrove

Intentional Community with local and long-distance members
Chemical-free fruits, vegetables, herbs, and flowers
Dairy and pack and draft goats
Free-range chickens, ducks, and geese (watch where you step)
Affordable housing cooperative
Regional farmer's marketing cooperative
Partnerships
Dried herbs and American-grown Black Tea by mail-order

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR99136-35142-2000.02.01-16.04.33--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-35323-2000.02.02-08.14.59--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: carrots and horse manure
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:51:48 -0500
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Holly > The risk of being struck by a meteorite is also slight, but
real.<

You're really living up to your name, Contrary Peasant!!  People can't
sue meteorites!
And when was the last time you heard of someone being killed by one as
opposed to the numerous cases we hear of food poisoning of various
types?  I guess I've seen too many swinging court doors.

If composting the manure removes the risk, I don't understand your
beef with this issue.  (Not being rude-enquiring minds wanna know ; }

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC






From awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us Wed Feb 02 09:13:48 2000
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From: "Wiediger, Alison" <awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us>
To: 'market farming' <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: RE: Seed Starting
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 07:59:53 -0600 
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We use a commercial seed starting mix - fine for seeding, a coarser mix for
potting up.  We add a small amount of composted, granulated chicken manure
to the mix - about 1 cup per 1.5 cu.ft.  This amount of nutrients gets the
seedling up and going, and lasts about 6 weeks.  We also use a liquid kelp
about twice during the transplant growing period. If because of weather we
have to hold transplants longer, we'll use kelp about once a week.  If we
have time (and often we don't during the heaviest transplant periods), we
use a concrete mixing tub to soak the flats before transplant. two will fit
in the tub and it assures they are well hydrated, and have a little boost as
they go in the soil.  Two soak as two are transplanted, then they are
rotated out.

Paul and Alison Wiediger
Au Naturel Farm
Smiths Grove, KY
> ----------
> From: 	Marie Kamphefner[SMTP:kampy@netins.net]
> Reply To: 	market farming
> Sent: 	Tuesday, February 01, 2000 6:56 PM
> To: 	market farming
> Subject: 	Seed Starting
> 
> What growing medium do you organic growers use to start seeds in?    And
> what do you fertilize the young plants to help them grow before you set
> them out?
> 
> Marie Kamphefner
> 
> 
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as:
> awiediger@hart.k12.ky.us
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
> 

From pike@always-online.com Wed Feb 02 09:19:20 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: IN MY BACKYARD!!
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:20:52 -0500
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Can you believe it--one of our very own subscibers lives just 30
miles from me!!!  Yipppee!!!!  ~~*-*~~

Okay,  snoopy dance is over.

I know we have alot of lurkers out there.  Please don't hesitate to
post!!!   Local support is very important & you never know when one of
us could be your neighbor.  We'd love to hear from you, and we promise
we don't bite--I even got my rabies shot!

subscribers with full mailboxes can shoot me later-I feel dead
already, must be lack of sleep, okay, I'm off to bed  -^-  I'm
grounding myself from posting anymore today....

Liz who's loopy
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC


From lh@pressroom.com Wed Feb 02 09:50:35 2000
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 >
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:50:09 -0500
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Leigh Hauter <lh@pressroom.com>
Subject: Re: Motivated deer...(Re: fence posts)


I agree with Allen.  The commonly mentioned deer deterrents work more or
less during the summer when there is plenty out there to eat.  I lost over
$5000 worth of vegetables after September 15th last year to deer.  Early
spring is also a time of concern.

An interesting fact about deer.  In the 1950's, around here, if someone
reported a deer siting, the local newspaper would send out a photographer
to get the rare picture.   This last year, it was rare for me to see less
than 4 deer as I drove in our mile long driveway in the evening.

What is the reason for these changes?

Is this just because the suburbs are rapidly moving in on our farm?

Is it because there aren't any poor country people left who poach deer all
year long for food (and therefore keep the population down)?

Where there other deer predators in the 1950's?

Is there something we are doing as farmers to make the world a more deer
friendly place?

Maybe it is that deer have adapted, just like the birds at my feeders, and
figure eating in my fields is a relatively safe thing to do.

From sojournr@missouri.org Wed Feb 02 09:54:06 2000
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Subject: Re: carrots and horse manure
References: <LYR99136-35142-2000.02.01-16.04.33--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-35323-2000.02.02-08.14.59--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99136-35339-2000.02.02-08.50.15--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Elizabeth Pike wrote:
> 
> If composting the manure removes the risk, I don't understand your
> beef with this issue.  (Not being rude-enquiring minds wanna know ; }

I'm not being rude, either (at least not on purpose).  I just want to
know what the "slight" risk is.

According to the original poster's sig, he seems to be in a position
where I would think he might know.

Holly ;-D

From awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us Wed Feb 02 09:58:52 2000
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From: "Wiediger, Alison" <awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us>
To: 'market farming' <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: RE: Motivated deer...(Re: fence posts)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:44:52 -0600 
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We had never had a deer problem until this past summer.  When the drought
hit, to save our market vegetables, we irrigated.  The irrigated plots were
the only thing green within miles, and the deer cleaned the crops up.  Even
our fall tomatoes, both plants and fruit.  They would eat the fruit just as
it got a blush - we had NO fall vegetable crop.  The worst part is that they
have learned we have food here.  This winter, it is not unusual to see 12
deer grazing our winter rye cover crop each evening.  Our guess is that the
spring crops will suffer too - and if we have another drought, as predicted,
we may feed deer all summer. We can get tags to "harvest" them for crop
damage - but we can eat only so much venison! Deer fencing the whole place
would never pay for itself.  What we hope for is a non-drought summer so
they learn different eating habits.

Paul and Alison Wiediger
Au Naturel Farm
Smiths Grove, KY

> ----------
> From: 	Leigh Hauter[SMTP:lh@pressroom.com]
> 
> I agree with Allen.  The commonly mentioned deer deterrents work more or
> less during the summer when there is plenty out there to eat.  I lost over
> $5000 worth of vegetables after September 15th last year to deer.  Early
> spring is also a time of concern.
> 
> An interesting fact about deer.  In the 1950's, around here, if someone
> reported a deer siting, the local newspaper would send out a photographer
> to get the rare picture.   This last year, it was rare for me to see less
> than 4 deer as I drove in our mile long driveway in the evening.
> 
> 

From CAVM@aol.com Wed Feb 02 10:01:32 2000
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Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:01:44 EST
Subject: Re: Motivated deer...(Re: fence posts)
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Paul.

According to the National Weather Service last week they are predicting that 
every place which had low rainfall last year would have low rainfall this 
year.

Cornelius A. Van Milligen
Kentucky Enrichment Inc.
Organic waste processors

From sojournr@missouri.org Wed Feb 02 10:02:30 2000
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Leigh Hauter wrote:

> What is the reason for these changes?
> 
> Is this just because the suburbs are rapidly moving in on our farm?
> 
> Is it because there aren't any poor country people left who poach deer all
> year long for food (and therefore keep the population down)?

I think there is less hunting in general going on, and more idiots
crashing around and shooting cows and horses or each other (or more
often nothing), so predation from hunting even during normal hunting
season may be less.

I know people who go "deer hunting" every year, and have been for 15 or
20 years, and have yet to get a deer.  I don't know HOW that is possible
given that they're thick as fleas most places nowadays, but it is.

> Where there other deer predators in the 1950's?

When I was a kid in the mid 60's to early 70's, it was still common to
see black bears in the country and at the girl scout camp I used to
attend.  I think its been about 20 years since the last reporting of a
black bear in those areas, which are more suburban now but still a lot
of rural areas.

So (though I don't think black bears are big on deer predation) I do
think that "natural" deer predators are fewer these days.

> Is there something we are doing as farmers to make the world a more deer
> friendly place?

I've been told that, yes, we do.  Deer are "edge browsers" and farms,
small farms, and "country living" developments create edges, so I'm
told, that provide the proper conditions for deer.

Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant

From fullcircle@jps.net Wed Feb 02 10:05:45 2000
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Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 07:05:15 -0800
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: New: Principles of Sustainable Weed Management for Croplands


I'm cross-posting this because ATTRA is such a great resource.  I urge
y'all to check out not only this publication, but the entire site.

Marcie

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>From: "Steve Diver" <steved@ncatark.uark.edu>
>To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
>Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:52:54 -0600
>Subject: New: Principles of Sustainable Weed Management for Croplands
>Reply-to: steved@ncatark.uark.edu
>Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
>Precedence: bulk
>
>Announcing this new web item from ATTRA.
>
>Principles of Sustainable Weed Management for Croplands
>http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/weed.html
>
>Abstract:
>
>Weeds are invited guests into agricultural fields as the result of
>management decisions and defying nature's principles. Managing
>croplands in tune with nature's principles makes for fewer and less
>costly weed problems. Strategies which utilize allelopathy,
>intercropping, crop rotations reduce weeds considerably. A weed-free
>design is discussed. A number of other weed control strategies are
>discussed. Additional resources are listed at the end of the
>publication.
>
>The author is Preston Sullivan, agronomy specialist.
>
>As a sampler, I have copied one section below titled "The Root Causes
>of Weeds"
>
>The Root Cause of Weeds
>
>          Have you ever noticed when a piece of land is left fallow
>          that it is soon covered over by annual weeds? If the field
>          is left undisturbed for a second year, briars and young
>          trees start to grow. As the fallow period continues, the
>          weed community shifts increasingly toward perennial
>          vegetation. By the fifth year, the fallowed field will host
>          large numbers of young trees in a forest region, or
>          perennial grasses in a prairie region. This natural
>          progression of different plant and animal species over time
>          is a cycle known as succession. This weed invasion, in all
>          its stages, can be viewed as nature's means of restoring
>          stability by protecting bare soils and increasing
>          biodiversity.
>
>          Weeds are evidence of nature struggling to bring about
>          natural succession. When we clear native vegetation and
>          establish annual crops, we defy ecological succession. Man
>          is, in effect, holding back natural plant succession, at
>          great cost in weed control. To better understand this
>          process, think of succession as a coil spring. Managing
>          cropland as an annual monoculture compresses the spring -
>          leaving it straining to release its energy as a groundcover
>          of weeds. In contrast, a biodiverse perennial grassland or
>          forest is like the coil spring in its uncompressed condition
>          - a state of relative stability with little energy for
>          drastic change (Figure 1) (2). Generally speaking,
>          biodiversity leads to more stability for the ecosystem as a
>          whole.
>
>Monoculture
>(Unstable Simple Community)
>
>Biodiversity
>(Stable Complex Community)
>
>Figure 1. Monoculture vs. Biodiversity
>
>          Modern crop agriculture is typified by large acreages of a
>          single plant type, accompanied by a high percentage of bare
>          ground - the ideal environment for annual weeds to prosper
>          in the first stage of succession. Holding succession at bay
>          with such unstable ecosystems can only be managed with high
>          levels of inputs such as cultivation, mowing, herbicides and
>          fertilizers.
>
>          Having a high diversity of plants and animals increases the
>          stability of the whole system because harm to any one
>          species is less likely under diverse conditions than with
>          less diverse environments. For example, an insect outbreak
>          could wipe out a pure stand of crop because the insects can
>          easily move from one plant to the next and breed rapidly.
>          The insects can find their food easily and have few
>          predators or parasites to hamper them. The same insect
>          invasion occurring in a mixture of many plant types would be
>          less severe on any one type of plant because the insects
>          would have a harder time finding their preferred food. The
>          insects would be undernourished, have more difficulty
>          finding a mate, and have lower reproductive rates. The end
>          result is that the impact of an insect outbreak is much less
>          severe on the whole ecosystem where high biodiversity
>          prevails. Stability through biodiversity is one of nature's
>          fundamental rules.
>===========================================
>
>
>To Unsubscribe:  Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command
>"unsubscribe sanet-mg".  If you receive the digest format, use the command
>"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest".
>To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command
>"subscribe sanet-mg-digest".
>
>All messages to sanet-mg are archived at:
>http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail
>

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From goodows@excite.com Wed Feb 02 10:17:24 2000
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From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley <goodows@excite.com>
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Liz contact your certifying agent and ask about the phosphate. That is the
ONLY person who can answer your question. I lost a lot of certifacation to
non certified organic cottonseed meal. Had coddled the land for 6 years, got
it certified, found we needed to lower the pH and found what we were assured
was organic cottonseed meal and proceeded to spread the stuff. Found out it
was not certified CM and lost certifacation. it was a bitch but we lived
through that and a drought last year and we are still in business but what I
learned was to get anything suspicious/unknown cleared with the certifyer
before application and always ask for papers. 
Since you made clear what you wanted (got it in writing?) and they delivered
the wrong stuff you may want to litigate.
Hard lesson
>  


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





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From wshoemak@inil.com Wed Feb 02 10:38:49 2000
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From: "Bill Shoemaker" <wshoemak@inil.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: carrots and horse manure
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:39:09 -0600
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>Elizabeth Pike wrote:
>>
>> If composting the manure removes the risk, I don't understand your
>> beef with this issue.  (Not being rude-enquiring minds wanna know ; }
>
>I'm not being rude, either (at least not on purpose).  I just want to
>know what the "slight" risk is.
>
>According to the original poster's sig, he seems to be in a position
>where I would think he might know.
>
>Holly ;-D


    Sorry, I can't offer statistics on the issue. I'm just aware of an
increasing number of food poisoning events related to cider, fruit and
vegetables. Food science and safety aren't a primary professional focus. I
just become concerned when the growers I work with and the customers they
serve are affected by the issue, and they have been. I think it would be a
mistake for anyone who uses manure in their food crop production, whether
raw or composted, to not take this issue very seriously. I'm sure their
customers are.

    I think manure is an outstanding fertilizer and soil amendment. It just
needs to be handled sensibly. Like several other poster's pointed out, E.
coli and other dangerous microorganisms are natural inhabitants in the
intestines of some animals. Deer and cattle are well-documented examples.
The microorganisms can survive in manure for a significant period of time.
We need to make sure that we handle it safely.

Bill Shoemaker
Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
Univ of Illinois - St Charles Hort Research Center


From mjb@premier1.net Wed Feb 02 10:42:14 2000
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From: "Michaele Blakely" <mjb@premier1.net>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR99136-35107-2000.02.01-14.17.36--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99215-35133-2000.02.01-15.05.31--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99136-35304-2000.02.02-07.35.03--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98946-35313-2000.02.02-07.58.54--mjb#premier1.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Ree-coli and horse manure
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 07:49:10 -0800
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----- Original Message -----
From: Sojourner <sojournr@missouri.org>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 5:02 AM
Subject: Re: carrots and horse manure


> Robert Farr wrote:
> >
> > Holly:
> >
> > Animal manures carry the possibility of e-coli.
>
> Not in my livestock.
>
> E-coli can occur in any livestock no matter how well you manage them.  It
is also occuring in wild animals as well.  Salmonella is the same, although
my egg inspector said the chance of my chickens having it here on the west
coast is 1 in 3 million.  Whether organic or not, it is a safety issue for
consumers to know that their food is grown prudently.  Hopefully it will
soon become mandatory for all growers to have either composted or aged their
manures before applying it to their fields.  Here in Washington it's 60
days.  It's sad that this has happened, we all know probably why these
bacterias have gone crazy, but now that they are here we need to deal with
it.
Michaele
Growing Things
Carnation Wa


From fullcircle@jps.net Wed Feb 02 10:47:04 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Market Associations


A Quick Market association site list.  More from the one I helped start later.

Pacific Coast FMA  http://www.pcfma.com/
CaliforniaFederation of Certified Farmers' Markets  - an association of
associations
http://farmersmarket.ucdavis.edu/

Open Air Market - markets from all over the world http://www.openair.org/

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From llami@teleport.com Wed Feb 02 10:55:11 2000
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Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 07:51:43 -0800
Subject: Re: Motivated deer
From: Lee Lawton <llami@teleport.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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When I bought this farm, there was already a large garden here, fenced
against deer. In fact, the whole place was fenced against deer, for all the
good it did. So far, no deer have entered the garden, however. The previous
owner put up regular pasture fencing on 5 or 6' t-posts, then attached
t-posts to the top of these posts with hose clamps. The top t-post is upside
down, with another line of fencing on that.

I've done this work myself, with help, and it is difficult to stretch the
upper wire fence any length at all, without having it flapping in the wind.
I'm going to purchase light-weight plastic fencing for another area I'm
fencing this year, and I'll use this on the upper portions. The hose clamps
work great and last forever, and you can buy them at any auto supply store.
You could buy really cheap t-posts for the top this way, too, and save
yourself the heavy work.

And I heartily recommend the post drivers, too.

Lee Lawton
Over the Rainbow Farm
Junction City, Oregon


From marc@aculink.net Wed Feb 02 11:01:18 2000
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Subject: Re: Sawdust as Mulch:
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Here we import sawdust to mulch our slaughter discards. We
build critter parts and sawdust/woodchip "sandwiches" to
about 3 - 4 feet then start over. It is very effective for
reducing predator/scavenger attraction, odors/flys and after
a few months (actual time is related to seasonal factors
such as moisture and temperature) we can mix with poor soil.

Marc

From gutierrez-lagatta@home.com Wed Feb 02 11:03:18 2000
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Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:3:17
Subject: Re:  freezing and value added
To: market-farming
From: "Adriana Gutierrez" <gutierrez-lagatta@home.com>


> But before we sign any rental agreements we're making completely sure that
> our plans pass all of the requirements of the health department, ag and
> markets, yadda yadda.
Shared kitchens make a lot of sense and it's great that somebody else can 
worry about inspections, permits, etc.  What training and certification 
requirements are there for the users of these kitchens?

From awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us Wed Feb 02 11:06:09 2000
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From: "Wiediger, Alison" <awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us>
To: 'market farming' <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: RE: Market Associations
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:52:14 -0600 
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Something to consider if you are organizing a farmers' market association.
Decide whether it is to be for farmers only, and if it is, set up some way
to certify those farmers in what they grow.  The organization I have been
selling through for 10 years, has rules that say "most of the produce sold
is to be grown by the seller".  Totally impossible to enforce, exacerbated
by the fact that the directors and officers are the worst offenders. On a
typical day, over 50% of what is sold at our market is sold by resellers,
and they sell it as "homegrown".  The average consumer is so removed from
knowing about growing, that they can't tell the difference - watermelons in
May are available at the grocery store, why not at the farmers' market?  For
those of us who do grow, it impacts our sales in a negative way.  The
average customer goes to these "megastands" that have everything available,
regardless of time of year, and buy their entire week's produce.  Just like
a grocery store. Over the years, I have watched many farmers come, and after
a season or two, leave because there is no way to compete with the
resellers.   If this was a large enough city to support two farmers'
markets, we'd start a new one, but it isn't. I keep hoping the resellers
will get too old to want to do it anymore and leave, but as of last summer,
the second generation was involved, so it's not going to happen. So, before
you start, set up the rules, and a way to enforce them, that way nobody can
compete unfairly, and everyone knows what the rules are up front.

Paul and Alison Wiediger
Au Naturel Farm
Smiths Grove, KY



From pike@always-online.com Wed Feb 02 11:10:56 2000
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Subject: Bears as tillers Re: Motivated deer
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:11:19 -0500
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I have a black bear sow & her triplets-yes, triplets living in the
forest behind our farm.
If only they'd go after the wild dogs. (Trapped & impounded 4 so far
in the past couple of weeks.) I'm thinking of spreading fish oil on
the garden since the bears dig so much-free tilling!  Maybe this is
why we don't have a deer problem even though I see 5-15 every night
when I go up to close up everything.  Bears (black bears, at least) do
not eat deer, unless they find a carcass & they're very hungry.  They
prefer acorns, nuts, fruit & will also eat corn & absolutely love NC
peanuts.  Maybe planting more of these crops would encourage them to
come around & scare off the deer??


Increased deer:  Hunting regulations, fewer hunters, even fewer
EXPERIENCED hunters who can actually hit their targets (this isn't
paintball, boys), increased fear of guns, venison viewed as "Eeyyew!",
smarter deer, decreased food crops (won't eat cotton), & increasing
suburbia  have increased the population & farmers' problems.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC


From mjb@premier1.net Wed Feb 02 11:25:10 2000
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References: <LYR98946-35374-2000.02.02-11.06.08--mjb#premier1.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Market Associations/ farmer grown
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----- Original Message -----
From: Wiediger, Alison <awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 7:52 AM
Subject: RE: Market Associations


>
> > Decide whether it is to be for farmers only, and if it is, set up some
way
> to certify those farmers in what they grow.  The organization I have been
> selling through for 10 years, has rules that say "most of the produce sold
> is to be grown by the seller".  Totally impossible to enforce, exacerbated
> by the fact that the directors and officers are the worst offenders. On a
> typical day, over 50% of what is sold at our market is sold by resellers,
> and they sell it as "homegrown

I sell at two markets (and this year it will be three) where it has moved
from a 20% import of produce to 100% farmer grown for these exact same
reasons.  Having sold at markets where anything goes the 100% markets are by
far the most successful.  The consumers love coming to a market they know
the farmers have grown it all.  It builds upon itself year by year.  Of
course there are violations; those are handled quickly by vendors usually.
Originally when these markets were started the 80-20% policy was brought in
because the market managers felt for the first few years it would be hard to
get a wide diversity from a new market.  I don't think that was  the case
and we could have been okay with 100% in the beginning.  It caused some
flagrant violations and finally things came to a head and the policy was
changed.
Education is the key, for the consumer, the managers and the farmers that
the integrity of 100% farmer grown will in the long run make for a more
prosperous market.
Michaele Blakely
Growing Things
Carnation WA



From goodearth@rockbridge.net Wed Feb 02 11:28:42 2000
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Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 10:34:30 -0500
Subject: Permanent beds
From: "Andy Lee & Pat Foreman" <goodearth@rockbridge.net>
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>

> It always seemed to me - with no experience in permanent raised beds - that
> over time the bed would become dense and lose its tilth, then you'd have to
> go into the bed with a tiller of some kind, and that would be more of a
> pain.
>
> What am I not understanding?
>
> Rose

Hi Rose, you are overlooking the billions of tiny plows that live in your
soil. If you provide them with enough carbon, air, water and a bit of N from
time to time they will keep your soil loose, flocculated, and fertile. As an
example, lay a board in your lawn for 6 months, then pick it up and marvel
at the critters that live under there, and how soft the soil is compared the
surrounding lawn.

Regards,

Andy Lee
Good Earth Organic Farm
Buena Vista, Virginia

From goodearth@rockbridge.net Wed Feb 02 11:28:52 2000
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Subject: permanent beds don't need tilling
From: "Andy Lee & Pat Foreman" <goodearth@rockbridge.net>
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>

> Rose-
> It's true you will have to till a permanent raised bed.  The Mantis or
> equivalent small tiller is great for that task.  We keep our raised beds (all
> wooden-sided now as the hilled kind get grassy edges) at 42" total width so
> you can walk beside while tilling with the Mantis.
> Bob Gregson, Island Meadow Farm, Vashon WA
>
Hi Bob, I believe tilling is detrimental to the soil at all levels,
particularly the upper 2-3 inches where our soil-dwelling friends live. Each
tilling destroys soil life for at least 3 generations. Tilling also causes
poor tilth by mixing sub-soil with top-soil, and it leads to wind and water
erosion. Tiny particles of loam get washed through the tilled soil and lodge
at the hard pan level, and contributes to the "plow pan" effect. Water can't
flow down or up, so your crops are either drought stricken or flooded. The
sun baking on tilled soil exacerbates the problem, as well as drying out the
soil thus requiring yet more irrigation.

We are converting fescue pastures to market gardens at the rate of 1 acre
per year, and we only work our soil once. That is the initial pass with the
spading machine to break up the sod and loosen the hardpan. From that point
on we rely on mulch to keep out weeds, add organic matter, conserve
moisture, and protect the soil from sunlight, wind and rain. Adding that
much mulch is hard work, but we only do it once a year, whereas weeding is a
weekly chore on many market farms.

Our first year crop is always good, the second year is always great. The
only time we ever consider working up a seed bed is for tiny seeds that
can't be first grown as transplants, such as carrots and salad greens, etc.
We've never used a digging fork, considering them yuppy tools that require
too much labor for negligible results. Let the soil dwellers do the plowing,
they really get off on it if you leave them alone and feed and water them
regularly.

Also, I wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed reading your book Rebirth of
the Small Farm. Excellent book, thanks for writing it.

Regards,

Andy Lee
Good Earth Organic Farm
Buena Vista, Virginia

From fullcircle@jps.net Wed Feb 02 11:31:53 2000
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Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:31:28 -0800
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Quality of the list, unsubscribes, personal restraint


I got this message this morning from someone, I'll not name, but  I
consider one of the more valuable subscribers to this list.  It is
representative of several personal messages I've received since this
weekend.

Marcie,
    I regret that I have come to my limit of wading through so much activity
on this list.  The sheer volume is exhausting.  Obviously, it is a necessary
forum for many.  My wife has become irritated by the time I'm spending trying
to keep our e-mail list clear.  I can't imagine how much of your time this
list is taking.  For now, I need to unsubscribe to the market-farming list
until spring activities makes the volume more manageable.

Two things come to mind on this.

1.  I'm no longer willing to lose folks due to the volumn of off-topic,
personal, and one line replies.  If you have been personally contacted by
me about this behavoir, especially, if I've written you more than once
about the same problem or different problems, please revisit the FAQ.  I
will unsubscribe repeat violators in order to preserve the only forum we
have for production-oriented discussions for market farmers.

2.  All should realize it's winter, and somefolks, especially on the East
coast are snow-bound.  Both the volumn and the volume of this list will
deminish as Spring comes and we're all on our land.  One solution to
feeling overwhelmed therefore unsubscribing, is to sign on as user through
the website.  With your e-mail address and a password, you can  search an
individual topic, pre-screen all posts before reading them, and post - all
without filling your mailbox.  Obviously, this doesn't work for everyone,
but it is a alternative to stay active.

Please people, I really don't want to be an ogre about this, but I want
this list to be productive for everyone.


Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Wed Feb 02 11:47:21 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
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Subject: Re: Quality of the list, unsubscribes, personal restraint
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:46:42 -0800
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Just a comment....and I hope I'm not speaking out of turn...

Personally, I find this list delightful, informative, educational.  I meet
people of all levels of experience and opinion.  And, remarkably - as in
academia - there are solid reasons why everyone does what they do.

The messages are voluminous, but might I suggest that you sort according to
"subject" and delete en-masse what doesn't serve or interest?

I'd hate to see the list slow down because people start second-guessing
themselves.

I can't even begin to guess how much I've REALLY LEARNED in just this past
week alone.

Rose


From rbfarr@erols.com Wed Feb 02 11:55:48 2000
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Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 11:57:31 -0500
From: Robert Farr <rbfarr@erols.com>
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Organization: The Chile Man, inc.
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Quality of the list, unsubscribes, personal restraint
References: <LYR99215-35387-2000.02.02-11.31.51--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Marcie:

As I noted in a post a couple days ago, the easiest way to avoide
reponding to the list is to make the "Reply" function go to only an
individual, not the entire list.

I understand there is an issue with this (from your response to my
suggestion).  But folks like me who get over 200 e-mails A DAY -
sometimes 300 - get used to just hitting "Reply", and don't mean it to
go to the entire list.  Because other listservs are set up this way, we
have a Pavlovian response to "Reply".  Because the Market Farming list
doesn't work this way, it's hard to un-learn that reponse.

Teaching an old dog new tricks, and all that.

Perhaps this will help you in your quest to fix that issue.

Thanks for a great list!

Robert.



From waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Wed Feb 02 11:58:04 2000
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Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 12:00:04 -0500
From: Alex McGregor <waldenfarm@sprintmail.com>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Permanent Raised Beds
References: <LYR98943-35236-2000.02.01-23.12.45--waldenfarm#sprintmail.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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B&B

I confess! I'm the one with the 15 year old beds that have only been tilled once.

BBGREGSON@cs.com wrote:

> Lawrence London wrote about tilling only once in 15 years.  That is not clear
> to me.  How do you prepare seedbeds?

What we do for seed beds is surface cultivate with a collinear hoe only deep enough to
break up any crust and kill the weed sprouts- about 1/4" deep. Then rake them smooth and
plant or transplant.

> How do you incorporate green manures and crop residue?

That's where a Mantis comes in- for green manures, lightly tilled cut into the top few
inches. Or they can be cut into squares and turned over (like pancakes) to decompose.

> It also sounds like a lot of soil amendment usage.

We add 4 cubic feet of finished compost per 100 square foot bed per crop. We get 2 to 4
crops per bed per season. By the way, we add all compost to the surface after raking
smooth, we don't dig it in. that's how nature builds soil- from the top down.

> We rototill lightly to prepare for cover crop in the fall (if crops can be
> harvested in time) and then again for seedbed preparation in the spring (for
> transplants in most cases).  More explanation will be helpful!  Thanks.
> Bob and Bonnie Gregson, Island Meadow Farm, Vashon, WA

We have something growing in the beds at all times. Crops are planned so that we plant
the same day we harvest a bed (theoretically). it takes us 30 minutes to prep a bed for
the next crop after harvest. Any crop residue is removed and added to an active compost
pile.

I hope this helps clear up what I wrote earlier. The system I use (based on Jeavons and
modified by Steve Rioch at OU then modified by me) is hard to explain in an email. I
teach workshops for gardeners, farmers and teachers. The garden workshop is 3 1/2 days
and the farming is 5 days- gives you an idea of how much info we try to pack in.

I have read and enjoyed your book- recommended by a friend in North Georgia- lots of
practical info for those starting out. I plan to add it to my recommended list for
workshops and classes.

Alex


From cappy@harborside.com Wed Feb 02 12:01:24 2000
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>,
        Adriana Gutierrez <gutierrez-lagatta@home.com>
Reply-To: cappy@harborside.com
References: <LYR99013-35373-2000.02.02-11.03.18--cappy#harborside.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Subject: Re:  freezing and value added


Quoting Adriana Gutierrez <gutierrez-lagatta@home.com>:

> > But before we sign any rental agreements we're 
making completely sure
> that
> > our plans pass all of the requirements of the 
health department, ag and
> > markets, yadda yadda.
> Shared kitchens make a lot of sense and it's great 
that somebody else can
> worry about inspections, permits, etc.  What training 
and certification
> requirements are there for the users of these 
kitchens?
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: 
cappy@harborside.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
>
> 
Hi there,

I think it was last week I mentioned commercial 
incubator kitchens - quite a few are in operation here 
in the northwest.

First of all, check with your state Dept of Ag.  
They'll have a list of any commerical kitchens in your 
state.  (at least they should).  

Talk with the staff at existing commerical kitchens 
around the nation.

I mentioned Columbia Gorge Community College (east of 
Portland, Oregon).  Coordinator is Mary Ann Pauline
541 296-6182

The college has a website....I need to check that out.
In the meantime, just type in Columbia Gorge Community 
College under search and you'll find them.

There was an article a couple weeks ago in the paper I 
write for, Capital Press Agruiculture Weekly.  Let me 
go back and get more information on that one.  Very 
interesting story about a couple women applying and 
getting a grant to start and operate the kitchen.
(Washington state)

Each commercial kitchen is bound to help you.  Ask for 
their brochures, websites, etc.

The one at Columbia Gorge Community College has all 
sorts of support help, training, and cutomers renting 
space have to take an introductory workshop on health 
regs, logistics, etc.

Good luck,

Cappy Tosetti
on the Oregon coast

www.bumpercropmarketing.com

From sojournr@missouri.org Wed Feb 02 12:03:10 2000
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Permanent Raised Beds
References: <LYR98943-35236-2000.02.01-23.12.45--waldenfarm#sprintmail.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99136-35396-2000.02.02-11.58.03--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Alex McGregor wrote:
> 
> What we do for seed beds is surface cultivate with a collinear
> hoe only deep enough to break up any crust and kill the weed
> sprouts- about 1/4" deep. Then rake them smooth and plant or
> transplant.

What's a co-linear hoe?

Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant

From marc@aculink.net Wed Feb 02 12:16:16 2000
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: carrots and horse manure
References: <LYR99136-35142-2000.02.01-16.04.33--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99061-35323-2000.02.02-08.14.59--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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..snip..
> So de we have any statistics on just what this slight but real risk is?
> Preferably some that take into account the difference between sources of
> manure - say, separating out factory farm lagoon effluent from small
> operations that deal with reasonable amounts of manure without letting
> it sit around to become toxic sludge?
> 
> --
> Holly ;-D
> Contrary Peasant
> sojournr@missouri.org

Safety and health oriented procedures and reccomendations
are reponsible for the statistically low risk of infection
from pathogens. Composted manure and not using fresh manure
for food stuffs are important procedures.

The risk is not slight in a region of manure depostion. It
is a high risk situation even in a small operation. I have
had to install many water well sterilization devices that
have taught me the risk is not "slight" in a region of
manure deposition.

If you really want to know more about e-coli try the web
pages: 

http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~jbrown/ecoli.html

http://www.foodsafety.org/ht/alfalfa.htm

http://search.yahoo.com/search?o=1&p=e+coli&d=y&za=default&h=c&g=0&n=20

http://www.altavista.com/cgi-bin/query?sc=on&q=e+coli&kl=XX&pg=q&user=yahoo&search.x=46&search.y=12

http://infoseek.go.com/Titles?col=WW&qt=e+coli&sv=IS&lk=noframes&svx=sbox_top&cc=WW&oq=e+coli

Marc

From waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Wed Feb 02 12:17:21 2000
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Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 12:19:15 -0500
From: Alex McGregor <waldenfarm@sprintmail.com>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: One (or 2) more questions...Re: Permanent Raised Beds
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Rose,

Glad we have inspired you.

Rose & Fred Lieberman wrote:

> For those who make permanent raised beds, do you "box" them in with
> anything?  Wooden slats, concrete blocks, stone?

I don't have "containers" for the beds. I rake them into a slight arc across the bed.
This gives them a physical stability after tillage- keeps them from collapsing due to
hydraulic pressure (slumping) during a hard rain. The soil life builds a permanent
structure over time that resists this.

Also, without the material around the edges, you can plant right up to the edge of the
bed without restricting the growth and production of the edge plants. with edging, you
want to plant back away from the edge because the soil will shrink and there is usually
an air space there and roots won't grow on the edge.

Another advantage is that this curved bed has a greater surface area than a flat top bed.
You get about a 10% increase in surface area. I've had some students question if this is
significant enough to mess with. My answer is to ask them to send me 10% of their
paychecks, since production equals paycheck for farmers.

> If you don't, what prevents them from eroding?

The low slope across the bed doesn't give the water enough energy (slow moving) to carry
soil with it. But, the physical structure from proper tillage, followed by the structure
built by the soil life, allows all the rainfall to soak into the soil, not run off. The
only erosion we've ever had was when we got 2" of rain in 1 hour and over 6" (My gauge
was topped off) in 8 hours the same day. We lost about 1 foot length off the ends of 2
beds from water movement down a sloped path. Our soil conservation agent was here for a
meeting the next day and was amazed at the lack of erosion. She signed on at that point
to support our workshops.

And the paths- we go over them on a regular basis with a collinear hoe- about 5 minutes
to circle a bed- on a regular basis. When I could get free pine needles we used those to
mulch.

I hope this clears up some confusion. BTW, I'm not a bed purist. I have reached the
conclusion that some crops are easier in rows.

Happy Growing,
Alex



From waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Wed Feb 02 12:29:04 2000
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References: <LYR98943-35236-2000.02.01-23.12.45--waldenfarm#sprintmail.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99136-35396-2000.02.02-11.58.03--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98943-35398-2000.02.02-12.03.07--waldenfarm#sprintmail.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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sojourner wrote:

> What's a co-linear hoe?

Holly,

It's a hoe designed by Eliot Coleman. (Col for Coleman and linear for the blade being in
line with the handle. I spent some time trying to figure out where the 2 parallel lines
were until I read an explanation of the name.) A lot of people have knock-offs now, but I
think Johnny's carries the original.

The beauty of this hoe is that you put your thumbs "up" on the handle like using a broom.
This allows you to keep your back straight- important for those of us who have been
stooping for years. The blade will slice just under the surface, killing weeds without
turning new seeds up. It's fast and easy, once you get the hang of it.

When buying one, get the replaceable blade model with thin spring steel blades. These
work better than the original thick, hardened tool steel blades or thick spring steel and
don't break. Also, if you use short strokes close to the body and keep the blades
parallel to the soil surface, the blade will self-sharpen in the soil. the tool steel
blades were a pain because they broke and I had to carry a stone to sharpen them every 30
min. or so.

Alex


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> What's a co-linear hoe?
>
> Holly ;-D
> Contrary Peasant


If you get one, buy extra blades.  Keep them sharp, then replace as
you work.  Then you can stop & sharpen both, or all 3 (like me) later.
Efficiency-the name of the game!

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC




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------=_NextPart_000_0034_01BF6D79.EFE20260--


From waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Wed Feb 02 12:35:26 2000
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Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 12:37:22 -0500
From: Alex McGregor <waldenfarm@sprintmail.com>
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References: <LYR99215-35387-2000.02.02-11.31.51--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98943-35394-2000.02.02-11.55.47--waldenfarm#sprintmail.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Marcie,

This old dog only needed a few minutes to train himself to not hit "Reply" to send a
personal message. I like the list set up so we reply to it.

Let's face it, market growers are a different breed and having a list outside the norm
should should be a natural for us.

Keep up the good work. I appreciate your efforts and am enjoying the posts- Hey! and
learning a lot, too.

Alex


From greenman@ucla.edu Wed Feb 02 12:46:51 2000
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Seed Starting
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Ah... my first post to this list...

I used to make my own seed starting mix using perlite and peat moss.  One year I taught a
seed starting seminar and I decided it would be fun to show the class that you didn't
need to spend money on a commercial mix that would be a waste of your resources.  I
started lettuce  from seeds - hundreds of 'em - in flats of my homemade mix, a homemade
mix using the (then) new coir fibers, a commercial potting mix and Whitney Farms seed
starting mix.  I also started my tomatoes in the same fashion, but not enough plants to
be "scientific".

The results were startling enough to make your eyes bug out, to use a term that keeps
this truly a scientific report.  The Whitney Farms Seed starting mix out preformed after
every fashion, by all criteria.  I now use it exclusively, expense be damned.
Germination was better, root growth and shoot growth was more robust.  I was soundly
defeated in my premise.  I don't have the statistics at hand anymore (this was 5 years
ago), but it was fairly astonishing.

David King,
who encourages all to undertake their own study as
Your Mileage May Vary


From BBGREGSON@cs.com Wed Feb 02 12:51:37 2000
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From: BBGREGSON@cs.com
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Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:51:51 EST
Subject: Re: permanent beds don't need tilling
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Hi Andy-
Thanks for the nice words about our book.
We agree that it is desirable not to disturb the soil layers with tilling, if 
possible, and have always admired Ruth Stout's approach, which sounds like 
you are using.  The big concerns here in the Maritime NW are perpetual slug 
habitat in mulch, and the inability of the soil to properly warm in the 
spring if covered with (typically) light colored, reflective mulch.  
Presumably you are mulching with some kind of straw.  Our soil is pretty 
cold.  The idea of avoiding all tilling is very attractive and we'll give it 
a try on several beds this year....experience tells us that where we 
winter-mulch with chicken litter (on rhubarb and raspberries) the soil is 
wonderful underneath, but that is a rather dark material that has lost its 
reflective sheen.  Also, your chicken tractor technique has worked well for 
us as we rotate small flocks of chickens around the garden (which we learned 
from your book).

We concur about the digging fork.  As we get older and wiser we realize that 
Nature will do much of the work if we let her!  Thanks again for all your 
pioneering work.
Bob and Bonnie Gregson, Island Meadow Farm, Vashon, WA

From bbrocious@hotmail.com Wed Feb 02 12:54:22 2000
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From: "Bob Brocious" <bbrocious@hotmail.com>
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: broadforks
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 09:54:40 PST
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Allan,
Could you verify the name of the book with the plans?  Amazon doesn't show 
anything even close.
Thank you,
Bob Brocious
Tenacity Farm, Kentucky
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Wed Feb 02 13:00:20 2000
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From: Alex McGregor <waldenfarm@sprintmail.com>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Seed Starting
References: <LYR98929-35347-2000.02.02-09.13.45--greenman#ucla.edu@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98943-35421-2000.02.02-12.46.51--waldenfarm#sprintmail.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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My seed starting mix is free- no money, just time to make.

I use a 50/50 mix of soil from our mature beds (minerally balanced) and finished, screened
compost. the heavy compost addition helps hold water in the cells so we only have to water
once a day.

I mix 2 5 gallon buckets of soil and 2 5 gallon buckets of compost in a wheelbarrow. I keep
buckets of both on hand in the barn so i have them on hand for rainy days.

Alex


From waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Wed Feb 02 13:09:18 2000
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From: Alex McGregor <waldenfarm@sprintmail.com>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Bob Brocious wrote:

> Allan,
> Could you verify the name of the book with the plans?  Amazon doesn't show
> anything even close.

Bob,

Maybe I can help. The title is "The Backyard Homestead Mini-farm & Garden Logbook" by
Jeavons, Griffin & Leler. It's available from Bountiful Gardens, 18001 Shafer Ranch Rd.,
Willits, CA 95490, phone/fax 707-459-6410. email: bountiful@zapcom.net, order on line:
http://solstice.crest.org/sustainable/ecology_action/

Alex


From CLABEOTS@baraboo.k12.wi.us Wed Feb 02 13:27:04 2000
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From: "Chris Labeots" <CLABEOTS@baraboo.k12.wi.us>
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Subject:  Mushrooms
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I am looking to add mushrooms (log grown shiitake and oyster) to my =
farmers market sales. I sell only vegetables now. Anyone doing this? I'm =
wondering how it will cut into harvest time and if it is worth growing/sell=
ing them.

Thanks.


From pike@always-online.com Wed Feb 02 13:29:33 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: My dirt's fine!!!!
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:31:03 -0500
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Just to let everyone know-my rock phosphate is just that-rock
phosphate, almost mined in my own back yard!  WHEW!! The fertilizer
dealer was at home on vacation, so I went to his house & made him
drive to the office & SHOW me proof-I was nice-I dressed up ; } !   He
actually admitted to almost delivering the synthetic stuff, wasn't too
sure I knew what I was talking about!  Idiot.

I'd done every conceivable possible thing to ensure I was doing the
right thing.  Technically I'm not certified.  I don't jump through
hoops for anyone, and don't plan to now.  I was more concerned about
possible damage to my soil.   So my soil & I are in the clear.   Can't
wait to get it under my fingernails!!

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC


From pike@always-online.com Wed Feb 02 14:05:58 2000
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Marcie, I knew this would be a tough job.   From the bottom of my
heart-thanks for all your hard work.

When email is treated like a message board/chat room things get hairy.
I'm sorry we've had some unsubscribers-I hate to lose valued posters,
too.  You have stated there are other options to make this information
available to those who can't deal with it in email form.  I know we've
had some lengthy threads on topics boring to some, but these must have
been needed discussions to keep them going (who'da thought driving
fence posts could be talked about so long??!).  This list is meeting a
real need for market farmers- extremely current info, tried & tested,
with immediate feedback, that can't be found anywhere else.

All I can say is I type as fast as I talk-and sometimes before
thinking.

Personal restraint is not a virtue that comes easily for me.  I'll try
if it keeps me from being booted.  Am I jumping through hoops now??!!
Ah, such is life...

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC

PS  While I've got your attention-I received my software-thanks!
Can't wait to try it!


From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Wed Feb 02 14:15:40 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: Remineralization - resources
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 13:15:42 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
Reply-To: lflondon@mindspring.com
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From: "Wm Hurrle" <wmh@online.dct.com>
To: <bdnow@envirolink.org>
Subject: Re: Basalt dust
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:10:57 -0600

Dear All,

Rock dusts: The magazine is Remineralize the Earth, 152 South St.,
Northampton, MA 01060, 413-586-4429, -6064 fax, ReminEarth@aol.com.
Three issues a year for $25. This is 1996 information.
The Survival of Civilization by John D.Hamaker & Donald A. Weaver,
ISBN 0-941550-00-1, Hamaker-Weaver Publishers, 
POB 1961, Seymour, MO 65746, $12.
This is a remarkable book.

The oldest information on the subject I know is the 1894 monograph,
Bread from Stones, by Julius Hensel. I got a mimeo copy translated
from the German from Health Research, POB 70, Mokelumene Hill, CA
95245.

Another source is The Enlivened Rock Powders by Harvey Lisle, 4427
State Rt.601, Norwalk, OH 44857, $15 + $1.50 s&h. I've not read this
book. ACRES, usa, is into it. Christopher Bird also wrote about
remineralization. I think ATTRA has a publication on it, too.

Soil microbes need the widest menu of elements possible to be healthy.
Correct management of the carbon cycle is not enough. Since the last
glacier ground and distributed rock dust, precipitation and our lousy
ag have leached elements out of the soils. To keep them healthy rock
dust ammendments are needed. There are numbers of businesses devoted
to supplying  special rock dust conditioners. The aggregate industry
is aware of the ag use of fines that are otherwise a drag on their
operations. Contact the state associations. Remin the Earth will send
a list of them for $1 and a SASE. There are outfits in Europe and
Australia that sell minerals, too.

Regards,

Wm Hurrle



Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu


From mjb@premier1.net Wed Feb 02 14:20:21 2000
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From: "Michaele Blakely" <mjb@premier1.net>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: harvest carts
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:27:32 -0800
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Hi list

I've been musing the last few years on rigging up some sort of harvest cart
similar to attachments that are behind large tractors.  This month I saw in
a newsletter from Johnny's that a couple of people have done all the work
for me.  I've sent for some plans and am going to try one out this year.
The one I had envision would be able to raise and lower depending upon the
crop you were working on, it probably would have to have some sort of power
if you went too high (like for bush beans).  My question to you all is:
has anyone had any experience with a cart similar, and the pros and cons of
your experience?
You can access the web site that shows the cart and plans as well as some
other clever labor saving devices at http://bse.wisc.edu/hfhp
or call (608) 265-9451  they also listed a catalog that carried all the
supplies needed
(800) 533-5545
Michaele
Growing Things
Carnation Wa


From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Wed Feb 02 14:44:13 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: Re: Quality of the list, unsubscribes, personal restraint
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 13:44:19 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
Reply-To: lflondon@mindspring.com
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On Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:46:42 -0800, "Rose & Fred Lieberman"
<pyrite@clarityconnect.com> wrote:

>Personally, I find this list delightful, informative, educational.  I meet
>people of all levels of experience and opinion.  And, remarkably - as in
>academia - there are solid reasons why everyone does what they do.
>The messages are voluminous, but might I suggest that you sort according to
>"subject" and delete en-masse what doesn't serve or interest?

This is a great suggestion. Learn to use the full capability of your
chosen mail reader(s), news reader(s) and web browser(s). This list
is fully accessable by all three of these client software packages.
The web and email interfaces differ from news in their ability to send
commands to the server for sub/unsub and user config changes.

You'd be surprised what Lyris can do and what your client software can
do as well.

>I'd hate to see the list slow down because people start second-guessing
>themselves.

>I can't even begin to guess how much I've REALLY LEARNED in just this past
>week alone.

So have I. This list is getting like the old Usenet newsgroups 
covering, primarily, an academic heirarchy of subjects, vital to one's
profession, career, and not lastly, economic survival.
Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu


From cshel@usit.net Wed Feb 02 15:24:25 2000
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Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 15:17:10 -0500
From: Cheri Shelnutt <cshel@usit.net>
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Organization: Sweet Hollow Farm
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Hello,
Thank you for the generous offer.  We would like to receive these also.

Sweet Hollow Farm
140 Ward Lane
Bulls Gap, TN  37711

>
> > Hi. I'm the editor of American Small Farm. Email me your street address
> > and I'll put you on our 3-free-issues list. Then you can decide if you
> > want to subscribe to our magazine.
> >


From kmarsh@iol.ie Wed Feb 02 15:41:52 2000
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Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 20:48:54 +0000
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: kathryn marsh <kmarsh@iol.ie>
Subject: Re: Quality of the list, unsubscribes, personal restraint


I'm sorry to say I'm going to have to leave the list because I don't have
time to cope with the volume of mail I'm getting from this list and others
at the moment - even with sorting, mass deleting etc in place. And I can't
afford the on line time. I'll try and come back when things quieten down a
bit and the novelty has worn off.

Good list - well done Lawrence

kathryn



From glenn@smallfarms.com Wed Feb 02 15:49:26 2000
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CC: Nancy Haycock <nhaycock@pratt.edu>
Subject: Re: fence posts
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Hi Nancy,

When we fenced our farm seven years ago, a very good friend, the son of
a farmer, reminded me that when you do fencing, you don't have any
friends or relatives!  Friendly advice givers, shoot the breeze helpers,
yes.  But no friends or relatives...  So forgive them before you begin
work.

A note for females here.  My wife, Kathy, and Diane, our =93good=94
neighbor=92s wife, are two smart women who look good when dressing up, ar=
e
in the middle of all this fence building!  Kathy claims she=92s the best
soil tamper, and Diane digs the best post holes.  Hope the following is
helpful.  It=92s LONG. =20

Sounds to me like your talking about corners more than line posts.  The
corners are your end posts that hold the tension in your wire, the
stretch points.  We use wood post with a minimum of a ten inch diameter,
but the bigger the better.  My good neighbor has used posts 20 ins. in
diameter!  Be sure the posts you select for the corners are straight.=20
This will lessen the chances of the fence moving when the wires are
stretched.  If you=92re supplying your own posts, make sure you remove al=
l
the soft wood and bark for the same reason.  Don=92t skimp on quality
because the corners are the heart and soul of your fence.  Think
sustainability.

We go 3 ft. minimum into the ground rather than your two feet.  It gives
us that stability.  My good neighbor, the obsessive fence builder, will
go even deeper!  When digging the post holes, ALL the rocks and organic
debris are removed and separated from the soil.  The post holes are
about 1.5 times the diameter of the post, but due to rock removal,
usually much larger, and the sides of the post holes are straight,
cylindrical.

In addition to long handled shovels and post hole diggers, an important
tool for us is the O=92o, the Hawaiian post hole digger.  The modern
version of this  is made of a 5 ft. hard iron or soft steel rod,
mushroomed at one end and bladed or pointed at the other end.

Begin setting the posts by leveling the bottom of the post hole.  Then
tamp down with the O=92o.  Set your post to vertical for conventional
fencing or with the terrain for electric fencing.  This is when a
partner with a good eye needs to hold the post in place, especially for
9 ft. posts.  Shovel in soil that will tamp down to two inches and tamp
it solid.  Dirt only.  Then repeat this layering, laminating process.=20
You=92ll run out of soil so bring more from a nearby source.  Finish the
post off in a cone shape to help with rain water run off.

Check Attra for making the H or N braces on the corners.  Wear gloves
and ear protection when pounding in your metal T posts.  If possible, do
your fencing in increments so you don=92t kill yourself.  Talk with your
neighbor about sharing the cost and use of the fence.  Over here, we
usually share, but times are changing.  Place the fence on your side of
the property line or your neighbor's to avoid lawyer problems in the
future.

Uh, Nancy?  You still there?

glenn
Buy from the Farmer
http://www.smallfarms.com =20

From Nancy:
> So, I need to put
> up fencing this spring. I read the email over the weekend about fence
> height, and I'm wondering whether anyone has put up 9' (2' in the
> ground) fence posts without a tractor for help.  Is it crazy to think
> about standing on a ladder or something to pound in posts? I was
> thinking I would use electric fencing, since I figure I will probably
> reconfigure things at some point when I'm smarter.
> Any manual fence post advice?

From gutierrez-lagatta@home.com Wed Feb 02 16:05:10 2000
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Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:5:4
Subject: Re: Quality of the list, unsubscribes, personal restraint
To: market-farming
From: "Adriana Gutierrez" <gutierrez-lagatta@home.com>


To those concerned about the volume of e-mail there's a simple solution.  
Switch your subscription to "digest" form.  That way you will get ONE 
e-mail a day.  It will be long, but with this format it's a breeze to skip 
over entire messages that are of no interest.  Only one e-mail to 
open/delete and only one reply if you save your replies on a composer.  To 
switch to digest form:

Send e-mail to:     lyris@franklin.oit.unc.edu
In the subject line write:  set market-farming digest

On those days that you have the time to be more interactive with the list 
you can check in periodically through the web site to see the messages 
before you receive the digest.

From growing4market@earthlink.net Wed Feb 02 16:07:59 2000
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Subject: Re: Cut Flower Subscriptions
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 I'd sure like to have some explicit suggestions on 
>what to grow (from my point of view and from the customer's point of 
>view). Also, I'm interested in where you would recommend I buy 
>gladiola bulbs as I get started.
>
Allan, PYO customers are not very discerning, in my opinion. They love
everything. Just be sure to have a mixture of shapes and a long season of
bloom. The absolute easiest flowers to grow - requiring no support net, no
STS treatment, easily grown from a direct sowing or from your own
transplants - are larkspur, agrostemma, snaps, zinnia, monarda lambada,
salvia blue bedder, celosias of all types, cinnamon basil, achillea
colorado, veronica, lysimachia clethroides - oh, there's so many I could
write a book on it. Seriously, you will find the info you need in my book.
As for a source for glads, try Waushara Gardens at skimel@uniontel.net or
Miedema Bros. at 815-427-8470. Good luck.

From bg006@scn.org Wed Feb 02 16:10:45 2000
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From: bg006@scn.org (Douglas Hendrickson)
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Motivated deer...(Re: fence posts)
Reply-To: bg006@scn.org


Anyone out there tried using fishing line instead of wire between posts?
Seems like 25lb. test would startle em pretty good.

Douglas Hendrickson
Salt Creek Farm

>
>Someone mused about the height a deer will jump.
>
>Too easily...4'
>Easily...6'
>A running start...8'
>Well-motivated...10'+
>
>For those unacquainted with deer behavior...
>
>1.    They have to know the fence is there.  Don't put a fence line smack up
>to the forest line or right next to the road.  Give them space to walk
>around.
>
>2.    They don't like new things nor do they like to be startled.  That's
>where the pie plates and tinfoil strips and peanut butter come in.
>
>3.    The scent of humans - barber shop hair, urine - gives them pause to be
>circumspect and a desire to keep movin'.
>
>Rose
>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: bg006@scn.org
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')
>
>
>

From marc@aculink.net Wed Feb 02 16:17:55 2000
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..snip..
> 
> Please people, I really don't want to be an ogre about this, but I want
> this list to be productive for everyone.
> 
> Marcie A. Rosenzweig
> Full Circle Organic Farm
> Auburn, CA

..snip..

I am unclear as to the topic this list server is designed to
address. As of now it seems to be ANYTHING even distantly
related to agriculture. 

Marc

From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Wed Feb 02 17:52:18 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: Re: Quality of the list, unsubscribes, personal restraint
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 16:51:39 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
Reply-To: lflondon@mindspring.com
Message-ID: <vl9h9ss4g1178jssefomvbf9g0quh316th@4ax.com>
References: <LYR99061-35387-2000.02.02-11.31.51--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <40164@market-farming>
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On Wed, 02 Feb 2000 14:11:52 -0700, Marc & Marcy <marc@aculink.net>
wrote:

>I am unclear as to the topic this list server is designed to
>address. As of now it seems to be ANYTHING even distantly
>related to agriculture. 

It is called market-farming and is about market farming. Does this
ring any bells?
Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu


From goodows@excite.com Wed Feb 02 17:53:13 2000
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Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 14:03:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley <goodows@excite.com>
Reply-To:  <goodows@excite.com>
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Farmer's Market Fiasco
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Here it is about 4 months before the start of market season and I am already
looking at my first farmer's market fiasco of the year. 4 years ago i helped
to start a market in Oxford Ohio. They had a saturday market that is well
established but they have a rule that the market is only open to growers
within the school district (a district I attended k thru 12 and paid taxes
to for a decade after) I moved out of the district to start the farm so I
was shut out of that market or so I thought until I saw a sign 4 years ago
on the day I had quit my job at the show barn (couldn't farm and train other
peoples horses) for a new farmer's market on a tuesday. Showed up the next
week and have been doing it ever since. 

This year the park where we set up is undergoing rennovations and will be
closed down until August (at least-this city is not known for its
punctuality on such projects) and the city that is supposed to be in charge
of this market has done nothing about us. On Monday I have set up a meeting
with the head of the Visitor and tourism bureau (the office in charge) and I
have gotten a few vendors to agree to show up and I asked the tourism woman
to contact the rest since this is all long distance for me, etc. (plus this
sort of thing is her job). In the past these official people have tried to
pawn off the manager job on one of us original growers (there are 4 of us).
Not gonna let 'em do it this year-we all have more than enough to do growing
and selling.

I feel really bad that this market will have to move for a part of the
season. This could do irrepreble damage to what has never been a strong
market.   we can move to a spot in front of a fast food place. The owner is
very pro FM and helped to start this market but we have been there before
and it didn't work well-face it if you are going to Wendy's you probably
aren't going to pick up some organic carrots or chard on the way out. Of
course now we have a devoted following which wasn't there the first year and
the fastfood place is right across the street from our old set up.

God, I hope this is not a harbinger of things to come.... Ah maybe I am
being too negative or perhaps just a realist.

Thanks for letting me spew my anxieties

Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





_______________________________________________________
Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite
Visit http://freeworld.excite.com


From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Wed Feb 02 17:57:17 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: List Usage Info: Was:Re: Quality of the list, unsubscribes, personal restraint
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 16:57:32 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
Reply-To: lflondon@mindspring.com
Message-ID: <uo9h9sgrcej36fmgpd77917rv6o2kvpumj@4ax.com>
References: <40154@market-farming>
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On Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:5:4, "Adriana Gutierrez"
<gutierrez-lagatta@home.com> wrote:

>
>To those concerned about the volume of e-mail there's a simple solution.  
>Switch your subscription to "digest" form.  That way you will get ONE 

>On those days that you have the time to be more interactive with the list 
>you can check in periodically through the web site to see the messages 
>before you receive the digest.

Again, I repeat with added emphasis:

Yoy can set your user config to "receive no mail from the list"

and then ....

read and post to the list using the newsgroup interface.....

this way you get _nothing_ in your email inbox and remain fully 
interactive with the list and all subscribers thereof

for starters try this URL in Netscape or IE and see what you get:

news://franklin.oit.unc.edu/market-farming

Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu


From flowers@rt66.com Wed Feb 02 19:14:19 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: glads


great source for glads >fred nagle 6162792379/fax 2796207 #1's $85/k


martin


 Also, I'm interested in where you would recommend I buy 
>>gladiola bulbs as I get started.
>>
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow

5059898337 office
5057578337 farm april/november
5059203421 cell



From igg@igg.com Wed Feb 02 19:24:47 2000
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From: Allan Balliett <igg@igg.com>
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Hi!

I hope you don't see this as spam. As a fundraiser for a 
not-for-profit- sustainable ag initiative, I think this is right on 
tagert.

What I'm offering here is a valid and valued tool for garden planning 
and planting: A Year 2000 Biodynamic/Lunar Planting Calendar. (It 
contains planting information from Stella Natura, Maria Thun, and a 
couple of Lunar planting publications, all of which are used by many 
natural growers in Europe and the US.) It's a very beautiful wall 
chart on top of that.

We're selling these to raise funds to keep the rusty equipment that 
BIODYNAMICS Now!, the biodynamic farming and gardening discussion 
group, running.

You can see and order the calendar at:

http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y04Y0861378Y4627274/qid%3D949536484/002-7759988-5426632

Once again, I apologize for this intrustion.

-Allan Balliett
moderator
BD Now!
-- 

From bennett@frognet.net Wed Feb 02 19:36:20 2000
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From: "D.Bennett" <bennett@frognet.net>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: One (or 2) more questions...Re: Permanent Raised Beds
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 19:28:24 -0500
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>I hope this clears up some confusion. BTW, I'm not a bed purist. I have
reached the
>conclusion that some crops are easier in rows.
>
What crops grow best in beds and what ones do best in rows?
Do you companion plant, like the "carrots love tomatoes" thing?


From ltrick@recorder.ca Wed Feb 02 20:37:54 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 20:37:51
Subject: Re: Farmer's Market Fiasco
To: market-farming
From: "lorraine trick" <ltrick@recorder.ca>


lUCY, stay as close to the original market as you can visually get.  We had 
the same problem about l0 years ago, and even though the city and the 
market did extensive advertising as to where we were temporarily located, 
no one seemed to read the paper.  If they accidently found us, they seemed 
to be surprised to see us.  They  thought the market had been cancelled for 
the year.  It was a disaster.  The next time they did repairs, we stayed in 
the same location and it carried on as usual.  A little inconvenient but a 
least the customers knew where we were.  Lorraine

From fullcircle@jps.net Wed Feb 02 21:25:57 2000
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Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 18:25:32 -0800
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: 2000 OEFFA Conference -Midwest


>X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to
>owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f
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>Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 20:37:39 -0500
>To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, SUSAG-TEAM@postoffice.ag.ohio-state.edu
>From: oeffa@mailbox.iwaynet.net (Sean McGovern)
>Subject: 2000 OEFFA Conference
>Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
>Precedence: bulk
>
>For Immediate Release                          Contact: Sean McGovern
>Monday, January 10, 2000
>614/267-3663
>
>OEFFA Announces 21st Annual OEFFA Conference
>
>The Ohio Ecological Food and Farm Association (OEFFA) is proud to announce
>its upcoming agricultural short courses on Greenhouse Production and Free
>Range Poultry. The courses will be held March 4th & 5th, 2000, at
>Northridge School, in Johnstown, Ohio.
>
>The Greenhouse Shortcourse on Saturday, March 4th will be taught by Steve
>Moore of Wilson College CSA.  Steve's passive solar greenhouse structure
>feeds over 100 families, and is designed with simplicity in mind to reduce
>maintenance and energy use.  Year round production and seed starting cycles
>and biointensive nutrient management strategies for healthy products will
>be discussed, as well as construction and maintenance concerns.  Steve will
>also address how this low-energy structure saves time and generates income.
>
>The Free-Range Poultry Shortcourse on Sunday, March 5th  will be taught by
>Herman  Beck Chenoweth  of the Resilience Institute and Locust Grove Farm.
>Herman is the author of Free-Range Poultry Production and Marketing and a
>noted direct farm marketing expert.  The seminar  will feature the Modern
>American Free-Range Production System for chickens and turkeys.  The system
>was developed by Beck-Chenoweth at his research farm in Southern Ohio where
>up to 4000 birds per year have been raised and direct-marketed using this
>system.  Thanks to a generous grant from the USDA's North Central
>Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education Program (SARE), thirty-five
>seminar participants will receive Beck-Chenoweth's book and companion video
>at no charge.
>
>Visit OEFFA's homepage at http://www.greenlink.org/oeffa for complete
>program information and registration forms.
>
>
>These short courses are part of  OEFFA's 21st Annual Conference themed "Our
>Biological Heritage, Seeds of the Past, Seeds for the Future."  The weekend
>will also feature experts from Ohio and around the country sharing
>sustainable agriculture production and marketing techniques through a wide
>variety of workshops and keynote speeches.  The OEFFA conference is Ohio's
>largest annual sustainable and organic agriculture gathering of
>approximately 700 consumers, farmers, and retailers.   The Conference is
>sponsored in part by the Resilience Institute and Ohio Earth Food.
>
>Registration fees for the conference begin at $45, with volunteer discounts
>available. Child care is available. Early registration deadline is 2/10/00.
>On site and single day registrations will be accepted. For a copy of the
>workshop schedule, registration forms, or trade show information, contact
>OEFFA at:
>
>PO Box 82234, Columbus, Ohio 43202
>Phone 614/267-3663, fax 614/267-4763, or email at oeffa@iwaynet.net.
>
>OEFFA is a non profit organization founded in 1979 as a broad based
>membership association of farmers, gardeners and consumers which conducts
>Ohio's organic certification program, and hosts numerous educational
>programs for sustainable and organic farmers, gardeners, and their
>customers.
>###
>
>
>
>
>
>Sincerely,
>
>
>
>Sean McGovern, Executive Director
>Ohio Ecological Food and Farm Association
>PO Box 82234 Columbus Ohio 43202
>(ph) 614/267-3663  (fx) 614/267-4763    email:  <oeffa@iwaynet.net>
>www.greenlink.org/oeffa
>
>For OCIA/OEFFA Organic Certification services in Ohio, contact OEFFA
>Certification Coordinator, Sylvia Upp at 419/853-4060, fax 419/853-3022 or
>email <oeffasylvia@cs.co>
>
>For OEFFA's Newsletter submissions and/or ad rate sheets, call Newsletter
>Editor Anne Bulford at (ph/fx) 740/993-2871 or email <anneb@angelfire.com>.
>Call first for faxes.
>
>
>
>
>
>To Unsubscribe:  Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command
>"unsubscribe sanet-mg".  If you receive the digest format, use the command
>"unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest".
>To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command
>"subscribe sanet-mg-digest".
>
>All messages to sanet-mg are archived at:
>http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail
>

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From sojournr@missouri.org Wed Feb 02 22:23:06 2000
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Sawdust as Mulch:
References: <LYR99061-35312-2000.02.02-07.56.14--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99136-35372-2000.02.02-11.01.18--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Marc & Marcy wrote:
> 
> Here we import sawdust to mulch our slaughter discards. We
> build critter parts and sawdust/woodchip "sandwiches" to
> about 3 - 4 feet then start over. It is very effective for
> reducing predator/scavenger attraction, odors/flys and after
> a few months (actual time is related to seasonal factors
> such as moisture and temperature) we can mix with poor soil.

I've heard of doing this.  Have you had any problems with animals or
pets digging into the piles, or have you taken precautions to prevent
that?

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From sojournr@missouri.org Wed Feb 02 23:24:35 2000
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I was wondering if anyone on the list is currently operating an orchard,
whether as your main crop or "on the side".

I've got plenty of room for trees, and I am planning on adding trees to
my pasture (for shade for the animals).  I see no reason some of those
trees can't be fruit trees - with the tiny amount of livestock I someday
hope to have I don't think it'll be a big problem protecting them.

Plus, it gives me an excuse to plant a whole BUNCH of different apple
trees instead of just a handful.  <VBG>

Seriously, I'd like to hear how much success people have had with fruit
in a farmer's market type setting.  I don't see fruit offered much.

I'd also like to hear about sources for heirloom fruit trees,
particularly old cling-style peaches and apples.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From marc@aculink.net Wed Feb 02 23:36:56 2000
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Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 21:30:48 -0700
From: Marc & Marcy <marc@aculink.net>
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Subject: Re: Orchards and fruit trees
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We're planting fruit trees this year - our first full season
here.  The previous farmers' markets we frequented in
Boulder and Louisville had fruit growers from the western
slope - big orchard country.

Check out Bear Creek Nursery for lots of old apple
varieties, grafting supplies and great prices.
BearCreekNursery.com
EMail:  BearCreek@plix.com

Marcy Nameth
SE Colorado



Sojourner wrote:
> 
> 
> I'd also like to hear about sources for heirloom fruit trees,
> particularly old cling-style peaches and apples.
>

From marc@aculink.net Thu Feb 03 00:31:26 2000
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Hi Andy (glad to see you here!) and any others who can help,

I was planning to purchase an Earthway seeder this year as
we expand our planting area which will include among other
things, an acre of cantelope, a sizeable plot of sunflowers
and extensive cover crops (thank you all for the discussion
on tilling).  After the recent discussion on Earthway
seeders, I'm reconsidering.  I just pulled out my reference,
your Backyard Market Gardening book, and wondered if you're
still using the three-abreast Earthways?

Sounds like they have problems with sunflower seeds and fine
seeds, but I haven't seen any other suggestions.  Does
anyone have something they WOULD recommend?

Thanks for writing your book, Andy.  It was my original
inspiration to do this!

Marcy Nameth
SE Colorado



Mary Hoelterhoff wrote:
> 
> E&R Seed
> 1356 E 200 S
> Monroe, IN 46772
> 
> Sells earthway seeder for $67.95 (includes freight charge)
>

From patrickstine@mindspring.com Thu Feb 03 00:56:05 2000
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From: "Patrick Stine" <patrickstine@mindspring.com>
To: <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject:  Re: Motivated deer
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 00:54:34 -0500
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   Hi All, my two cents and first post.

     Concerning the deer populations, the anti hunting / gun groups have =
had a huge impact and contributed to the decline in the number of people =
out actually harvesting the deer compared  in years past. Several =
landholders also refuse to let people hunt on their land due to =
liability issues, it would be to easy for someone to sue you becouse of =
their carelessness when walking with a loaded weapon.=20
    On a lighter note..... if you wish to harvest your deer several =
states now have programs that allow the meat to be donated to various =
organizations (battered womens homes, homeless shelters, etc) after you =
have filled your freezer. After a few years of hunting pressure we have =
found the deer prefer to find safer grazing grounds. This won't help =
those of you in the suburbs where hunting the deer would be limited if =
not outlawed.

    PS - really enjoy the info from the list and hope it keeps up.

Patrick Stine
Lazy S Farm
North Salem, IN.


Subject: Re: Motivated deer...(Re: fence posts)
From: Leigh Hauter <lh@pressroom.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:50:09 -0500
X-Message-Number: 29

I agree with Allen.  The commonly mentioned deer deterrents work more or
less during the summer when there is plenty out there to eat.  I lost =
over
$5000 worth of vegetables after September 15th last year to deer.  Early
spring is also a time of concern.

An interesting fact about deer.  In the 1950's, around here, if someone
reported a deer siting, the local newspaper would send out a =
photographer
to get the rare picture.   This last year, it was rare for me to see =
less
than 4 deer as I drove in our mile long driveway in the evening.

What is the reason for these changes?

Is this just because the suburbs are rapidly moving in on our farm?

Is it because there aren't any poor country people left who poach deer =
all
year long for food (and therefore keep the population down)?

Where there other deer predators in the 1950's?

Is there something we are doing as farmers to make the world a more deer
friendly place?

Maybe it is that deer have adapted, just like the birds at my feeders, =
and
figure eating in my fields is a relatively safe thing to do.



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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hi All, my two cents =
and first=20
post.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;Concerning the =
deer=20
populations, the anti hunting / gun groups have had a huge =
impact&nbsp;and=20
contributed to the decline in the number of people out actually =
harvesting the=20
deer compared  in years past. Several landholders also refuse to let =
people hunt=20
on their land due to liability issues, it would be to easy for someone =
to sue=20
you becouse of their carelessness when walking with a loaded weapon.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; On a lighter =
note..... if you=20
wish to harvest your deer several states now have programs that allow =
the meat=20
to be donated to various organizations (battered womens homes, homeless=20
shelters, etc) after you have filled your freezer. After a few years of =
hunting=20
pressure we have found the deer prefer to find safer grazing grounds. =
This won't=20
help those of you in the suburbs where hunting the deer would be limited =
if not=20
outlawed.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PS - really enjoy =
the info from=20
the list and hope it keeps up.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Patrick Stine</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Lazy S Farm</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>North Salem, IN.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Subject: Re: Motivated deer...(Re: =
fence=20
posts)<BR>From: Leigh Hauter &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:lh@pressroom.com">lh@pressroom.com</A>&gt;<BR>Date: Wed, =
2 Feb 2000=20
09:50:09 -0500<BR>X-Message-Number: 29<BR><BR>I agree with Allen.&nbsp; =
The=20
commonly mentioned deer deterrents work more or<BR>less during the =
summer when=20
there is plenty out there to eat.&nbsp; I lost over<BR>$5000 worth of =
vegetables=20
after September 15th last year to deer.&nbsp; Early<BR>spring is also a =
time of=20
concern.<BR><BR>An interesting fact about deer.&nbsp; In the 1950's, =
around=20
here, if someone<BR>reported a deer siting, the local newspaper would =
send out a=20
photographer<BR>to get the rare picture.&nbsp;&nbsp; This last year, it =
was rare=20
for me to see less<BR>than 4 deer as I drove in our mile long driveway =
in the=20
evening.<BR><BR>What is the reason for these changes?<BR><BR>Is this =
just=20
because the suburbs are rapidly moving in on our farm?<BR><BR>Is it =
because=20
there aren't any poor country people left who poach deer all<BR>year =
long for=20
food (and therefore keep the population down)?<BR><BR>Where there other =
deer=20
predators in the 1950's?<BR><BR>Is there something we are doing as =
farmers to=20
make the world a more deer<BR>friendly place?<BR><BR>Maybe it is that =
deer have=20
adapted, just like the birds at my feeders, and<BR>figure eating in my =
fields is=20
a relatively safe thing to do.<BR><BR></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF6DE1.3CC55DE0--


From KWallie@aol.com Thu Feb 03 03:48:45 2000
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Subject: Re: Motivated deer...(Re: fence posts)
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In a message dated 2/2/00 8:59:28 AM Central Standard Time, 
awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us writes:

<< We can get tags to "harvest" them for crop damage - but we can eat only so 
much venison! >>
how about calling local shelters, orphanages, food pantries??? after you 
harvest the deer for garden destruction???

From pike@always-online.com Thu Feb 03 04:32:08 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: deer deterrence
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 04:33:35 -0500
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Patrick Stine  >This won't help those of you in the suburbs where
hunting the deer would be limited if not outlawed.<

Archery practice might work  ; ).  (Unofficially done here, but you
didn't hear it from me.  Golf courses in the middle of farms &
forests?  A little golf, a little bow practice...oops.)

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC



From pike@always-online.com Thu Feb 03 06:42:16 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-35164-2000.02.01-17.15.35--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <39868@market-farming> <LYR98963-35179-2000.02.01-17.49.39--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Edible flowers: food for the table, crops for the market farmer (Faq time!)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 06:43:49 -0500
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Lawrence, I'm going to check with a few of our subscribers (the flower
growers) to see if one of them can do this, seeing as my time is
better spent on other projects ; ).

Liz


From pike@always-online.com Thu Feb 03 06:52:03 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-35164-2000.02.01-17.15.35--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <39868@market-farming> <LYR98963-35179-2000.02.01-17.49.39--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-35626-2000.02.03-06.42.15--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Edible flowers: food for the table, crops for the market farmer (Faq time!)
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I swear, I did it again.  This was meant for Lawrence, but since I've
got your attention--any of you flower growers want to write up a Faq
on edible flowers??  Contact me if you're interested!

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC




From pike@always-online.com Thu Feb 03 07:03:24 2000
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	<kmarsh@iol.ie>
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Subject: List novelty & unsubscribers
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From: kathryn marsh
> I'll try and come back when things quieten down a bit and the
novelty has worn off.

I'd like to know when did educating myself in my chosen profession
become a novelty??   Marcie, I'm sorry, but don't let unsubscribers
make you throttle us.  This will have dire consequences on the
momentum of this list.  Once & for all, choose your method for
accessing this extremely useful info & quit complaining.

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC


From guldann@ix.netcom.com Thu Feb 03 07:30:33 2000
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Subject: Re: Orchards and fruit trees
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We may just for fun put in a few dwarf apples trees.  I caution using fruit
trees in pasture for shade.  Make sure the trees and animals mix well.  Lots
of animals eat bark off trees. Our Highland Cattle which are natural
browswers have eatten most of the bark on everytree they can sink their
teeth in.  I would think goats might be as hungry.  Beth
> I've got plenty of room for trees, and I am planning on adding trees to
> my pasture (for shade for the animals).  I see no reason some of those
> trees can't be fruit trees - with the tiny amount of livestock I someday
> hope to have I don't think it'll be a big problem protecting them.
>



From pike@always-online.com Thu Feb 03 07:50:47 2000
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References: <LYR98963-35560-2000.02.02-23.24.34--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Orchards and fruit trees
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:52:18 -0500
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Warning!  Pasture & fruit trees do not mix !!  Remember our last
thread-e. coli??   Besides livestock love fruit--ever seen a tree
climbing goat ; ) ??  We have 10 apple trees, 6 plum & 3 pear, all
about 7-12 years old, some full size, some dwarf.   You'd wither & die
waiting for them to shade you, including the full size ones.  They
have a tendency to grow straight up without pruning to keep them
manageable.   Deer love them!  Leaves, bark & all!

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC


From snsaquasys@townsqr.com Thu Feb 03 08:09:55 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: S & S Aqua Farm <snsaquasys@townsqr.com>
Subject: Re: Orchards and fruit trees


At 10:28 PM 02/02/2000 -0600, you wrote:

>Plus, it gives me an excuse to plant a whole BUNCH of different apple
>trees instead of just a handful.  <VBG>
>
>Seriously, I'd like to hear how much success people have had with fruit
>in a farmer's market type setting.  I don't see fruit offered much.
>
>I'd also like to hear about sources for heirloom fruit trees,
>particularly old cling-style peaches and apples.

Holly, most of Missouri's fruit research is done right next door to you ---
contact Patrick Byers at SMSU's Mountain Grove Fruit Experiment Station -
417-926-4105.  

We've had only one or two market members who grew and supplied tree fruits
(apples, peaches and pears as I recall).   But, they were VERY popular folks
during their season:>)  I'll try to look up a couple of phone numbers for
you to contact for varieties and growing tips as well.

We also have some members supplying berries (blue, black, straw and rasp)
each year.  Let me know if you want me to send that contact info.

Paula
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775  417-256-5124
Web page  http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/


From pike@always-online.com Thu Feb 03 08:12:40 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: NC farmers
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:11:34 -0500
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Anyone going to the Farm Show in Raleigh (at the fairgrounds)??
Tomorrow, 9-4, with draft horse pull at 6 ; ) !!  We can arrange to
meet if you'd like!  Let me know asap-I'm leaving early today to avoid
rush hour-last time I was up there, totaled my car, & put my mom in
hospital 4 days & outta work 7 weeks ; { , got my truck though ; ) .
I can still check my email so please let me know!

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC


From gcr@rhealiving.com Thu Feb 03 08:13:04 2000
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From: "Donna Fezler" <gcr@rhealiving.com>
To: "'market farming'" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: RE: List novelty & unsubscribers
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:04:45 -0600
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The people that are complaining have a legitimate complaint.  I also
recognize these names from other lists.  Magazine requests and statements
agreeing with an opinion should be private e-mails, not public ones on such
an active list.  Also, I have seen a lot of inaccurate information.  If you
are not sure or have not rechecked your references, please restrain
yourself.  With 200 people multiple e-mails per day from a single person is
excessive unless the information is truly important or revolving around your
specialty.

This over activity on the reply button is chasing away some very valuable
talent.  I know I am giving it just one more day.

Donna Fezler
GCR
Jacksonville, IL

http://www.rhealiving.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Elizabeth Pike [mailto:pike@always-online.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 6:05 AM
To: market farming
Subject: List novelty & unsubscribers



From: kathryn marsh
> I'll try and come back when things quieten down a bit and the
novelty has worn off.

I'd like to know when did educating myself in my chosen profession
become a novelty??   Marcie, I'm sorry, but don't let unsubscribers
make you throttle us.  This will have dire consequences on the
momentum of this list.  Once & for all, choose your method for
accessing this extremely useful info & quit complaining.

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC


---
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From rbfarr@erols.com Thu Feb 03 09:12:52 2000
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Mornin'.

I'm about to erect a GH, specifically to start pepper seedlings.

I understand the bottom heat thing to get them going (or, I may start
them inside then take them out, covered, to the GH).  But as peppers
like it hot to grow, how would they do in a 55 or 60 degree GH?

TIA,

Robert.



From awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us Thu Feb 03 09:19:00 2000
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They will germinate best with a germination mat at 80 degrees.  We have our
mats at about 72 because we germinate a lot of different things. Them we
leave the peppers on them as long as we can.  Our greenhouse is set at 50 -
so they are cool at night.  It gives us nice stocky transplants, but we know
it takes about 9 weeks to get a good field transplant under those conditions
and seed accordingly.  The only one we have trouble with is HAbanero - it
just needs the heat, and usually catches up about 4 weeks after we
transplant into the field.

Alison Wiediger
Au Naturel Farm
Smiths Grove, KY


> ----------
> From: 	Robert Farr[SMTP:rbfarr@erols.com]
> 
> them inside then take them out, covered, to the GH).  But as peppers
> like it hot to grow, how would they do in a 55 or 60 degree GH?
> 
> 

From rbfarr@erols.com Thu Feb 03 09:40:51 2000
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Subject: Re: Help with Greenhouse
References: <LYR99215-35642-2000.02.03-09.19.00--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Thanks, Allison.

Now - what about my idea of starting the seeds inside (I heat with wood,
have one room that's nice and hot on the upper shelving of a bunch o'
bookcases)?

I could wait until the pop up, prick them out, them pot and cover
(plastic covers, perhaps) to protect them from cold and wind, and carry
them to the GH.

Would that work?

Thanks -

Robert.



From KWallie@aol.com Thu Feb 03 09:45:19 2000
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From: KWallie@aol.com
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Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:45:34 EST
Subject: Information on subscription gardens, please?
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when i joined the list, it was at the tail-end of a discussion of 
subscription gardening..got me to thinking, and i think i would really like 
information..

1..how do you determine subscribers?

2..how do you go about pricing?

3..do you do a contract?

4..do you guarantee that subscribers get X pounds of produce each week, X 
number of varieties, or just they get a percentage of your weekly harvest?

am really curious now, spoke with our county agent yesterday and now he is 
curious too...looking forward to lots of good information...katherine

From awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us Thu Feb 03 09:55:48 2000
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From: "Wiediger, Alison" <awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us>
To: 'market farming' <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: RE: Help with Greenhouse
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:41:56 -0600 
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It probably would - IF you get them into good light as soon as they spread
those cotyledons. It always amazes me how quickly they will stretch - even
in a greenhouse if we have a few gray days. When your production is large
enough to justify it, germination mats are a great investment.  We have 4,
which handles 36 flats, and hope to double that next year. Our favorite tool
for pricking out is something called a nit-picker - stainless steel, and
used to be available from Pinetree seeds for $2-3.

Alison

> From: 	Robert Farr[SMTP:rbfarr@erols.com]
> Now - what about my idea of starting the seeds inside (I heat with wood,
> have one room that's nice and hot on the upper shelving of a bunch o'
> bookcases)?
> 
> I could wait until the pop up, prick them out, them pot and cover
> (plastic covers, perhaps) to protect them from cold and wind, and carry
> them to the GH.
> 
> 
> 

From awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us Thu Feb 03 10:01:17 2000
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From: "Wiediger, Alison" <awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us>
To: 'market farming' <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: RE: Information on subscription gardens, please?
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:47:34 -0600 
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> ----------
> From: 	KWallie@aol.com[SMTP:KWallie@aol.com]
> when i joined the list, it was at the tail-end of a discussion of 
> subscription gardening..got me to thinking, and i think i would really
> like 
> information..
> 
> 1..how do you determine subscribers? We get most of them by word of mouth.
> Right now we have a waiting list.
> 
> 2..how do you go about pricing? In the winter, we actually take orders and
> price by items in the box. The selection is pretty narrow, mostly salad
> items, and some folks prefer different types of lettuce and greens. In the
> summer, when we have a lot more variety, we set a price of $10.00 a week,
> and put $10.00 worth of produce in the box according to our pricing for
> that week.  We also allow addons such as a bouquet of flowers or eggs for
> an individual customer.
> 
> 3..do you do a contract? Nope.
> 
> 4..do you guarantee that subscribers get X pounds of produce each week, X 
> number of varieties, or just they get a percentage of your weekly harvest?
> No guarantees for subscription, except that it will be worth the price. If
> we have drought, (and did 1999 and predicted 2000) or other disaster, we
> just call everyone and either reduce the price of the box, or stop selling
> boxes until we have production again.
> 
> am really curious now, spoke with our county agent yesterday and now he is
> 
> curious too...looking forward to lots of good information...katherine
> 
	Alison Wiediger
	Au Naturel Farm
	Smiths Grove, KY


From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Thu Feb 03 10:02:16 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: Re: List novelty & unsubscribers
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 09:02:18 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
Reply-To: lflondon@mindspring.com
Message-ID: <a62j9s05ktc01p3dtki9177v699l98agtc@4ax.com>
References: <LYR98961-35629-2000.02.03-07.03.24--gcr#rhealiving.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <40249@market-farming>
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On Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:04:45 -0600, "Donna Fezler" <gcr@rhealiving.com>
wrote:

> Magazine requests and statements

I assume you mean "send me a free one too". Otherwise any
information posted on any ag publications is valuable here. We will 
need to use this input to put together a FAQ on this topic. Posts
about this will often provide the latest updates on book editions,
magazines available, what's good, what's not, etc.

>agreeing with an opinion should be private e-mails, not public ones on such
>an active list.  Also, I have seen a lot of inaccurate information.  If you
>are not sure or have not rechecked your references, please restrain
>yourself. 

Eliminating those in particular would help a lot.


Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
metalab.unc.edu/market-farming Market Farming
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu



From rbfarr@erols.com Thu Feb 03 10:06:04 2000
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Subject: Re: Help with Greenhouse
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Does someone on the list have a good source for (inexpensive)
propagation mats?

TIA,

Robert.



From pike@always-online.com Thu Feb 03 10:11:37 2000
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From: Donna Fezler <gcr@rhealiving.com>

> Also, I have seen a lot of inaccurate information...unless the
information is truly important or revolving around your specialty.

ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!!!!! Farming isn't an exact science!!  What works
for me may not work for you.  But if you ask, I will tell, and then
let you decide if it's important enough to use or try.  Farming is our
specialty, but being the broad subject it is, topics & suggestions are
bound to come up that do not interest you.

Private restraint is good & after these whinings, I'm sure we'll all
be more careful about our postings.

This is the last I have to say on this.  Take it or leave it.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC


From awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us Thu Feb 03 10:14:38 2000
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From: "Wiediger, Alison" <awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us>
To: 'market farming' <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: RE: Help with Greenhouse
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:00:50 -0600 
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Try A. M. Leonard.  http://www.amleo.com

They have all sizes.  We use the 22  X 96 with a thermostat that handles 4
mats. They are 8 years old and still doing fine. We did some pricing
research last year, and theirs was, at that time, the best.

Alison

> ----------
> From: 	Robert Farr[SMTP:rbfarr@erols.com]
> Does someone on the list have a good source for (inexpensive)
> propagation mats?
> 
> TIA,
> 
> Robert.
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> 
> 

From fsfarm@mufn.org Thu Feb 03 10:30:10 2000
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From: "five springs farm" <fsfarm@mufn.org>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR99014-35310-2000.02.02-07.47.32--fsfarm#mufn.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Permanent Raised Beds
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:21:43 -0500
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For those who make permanent raised beds, do you "box" them in with
> anything?  Wooden slats, concrete blocks, stone?
>
We started with enclosed beds and did not like it. The wood we used lasted
only a few years, made managing quack grass difficult, and harbored sow bugs
to an extent that they became a pest. They DID provide great snake habitat,
however.
>
> If you don't, what prevents them from eroding?

They erode throughout the season, and if they get too low we "hill" them
back up with a garden rake. Our soil is very light and sandy.
>
> Also, how do you treat your pathways?  Do you mow them, mulch them, weed
> them, nuke them?

We hand hoe or mulch deeply between paths (grass clippings are great in the
paths, and we have also used woodchips with good results, and cardboard box
material)



Jim and Jo
The Community Farm Newsletter
http://www.mufn.org/public/tcf
----- Original Message -----
From: Rose & Fred Lieberman <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 10:47 AM
Subject: One (or 2) more questions...Re: Permanent Raised Beds



>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: fsfarm@mufn.org
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>



From bennett@frognet.net Thu Feb 03 10:53:38 2000
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From: "D.Bennett" <bennett@frognet.net>
To: <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: corn cob mulch ??? 
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:45:42 -0500
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Do ground corn cobs make good mulch?

I want to start a 1/2 acre asparagus bed.  It will be on piece of ground
that was over-grazed pasture under oak trees on a steep hillside of clay and
rock soil.  Please send me your suggestions on how to prepare the soil bed
and care of the asparagus.

Thank you.

Donna in s.e. Ohio


From pike@always-online.com Thu Feb 03 11:14:05 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>,
	<organicgrowing@egroups.com>
Subject: bonemeal & dried blood
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:15:31 -0500
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Bonemeal & dried blood are allowed under my state certifying agency.
Is there a risk to using these??  Are they processed enough to kill
lurking pathogens? I don't put meat in my compost, and wonder if this
isn't in effect doing the same thing. This may all be irrational
seeing as the "experts" say it's okay. But I don't trust anyone, until
I've seen/read/heard proof myself, and so far, the jury's out.
Also...
Can rock phosphate be 0-46%-0 ??  (I know-I'm a pit bull.  Persuade
me, PLEASE!!  This number seems high for unadulterated rp.)

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC





From guldann@ix.netcom.com Thu Feb 03 11:16:27 2000
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Subject: Marketing URL
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:04:41 -0800
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http://www.he.net/~image/nwm/imin.html
Check our Marketing your business.  Other great titles as well.  Beth


From fsfarm@mufn.org Thu Feb 03 11:23:18 2000
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Subject: Re: bonemeal & dried blood
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:21:32 -0500
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We have heard of a slight but not nonexistent risk from bone meal around mad
cow disease. We have quit using it, even with a mask. The dried blood was
just too gross as a product of slaughter houses to feel good about using it
(the same, of course, is true of bonemeal). We use alfalfa pellets or meal
for a N boost these days, economical enough on our small scale.

Yes, your phosphate can be 0-46-0

We mix our own fertilizer from the alfalfa, greensand, kelp, and rock
phosphate (sometimes a little wood ash) from proportions we calculated from
John Jeavons "How to Grow More Vegetables..."  We are very satisfied with
the results.

Jim and Jo
The Community Farm Newsletter
http://www.mufn.org/public/tcf
----- Original Message -----
From: Elizabeth Pike <pike@always-online.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 11:15 AM
Subject: bonemeal & dried blood






From fullcircle@jps.net Thu Feb 03 11:23:36 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Information on subscription gardens, please?


Katherine et al,

I'm forwarding your question to the two CSA lists, they are actually a more
appropriate forum for this question, and I'll answer on those. You can
subscribe to one or both as follows:

CSA-l from prairienet. This is the original, John just unsubscribed
everyone because of the bounce-backs form bad addresses and the
unsubscribes posted to the list. FYI January and June bring huge
unsubscribe requests to all lists as students move on.

To subscribe send an e-mail to listproc@prairienet.org with subscribe CSA-L
and your first name and last name in the message body. OR go to the website
at http://www.prairienet.org/pcsa/CSA-L/subscribing.html and fill out the
form.

The other list is the new MetaLab list started by Lawrence London, and
co-owned by Art Biggert, whose posts have appeared here.

To subscribe to that list send an e-mail to lyris@franklin.oit.unc.edu with
subscribe csa your_name in either the subject or message body, OR go to the
website at http://franklin.oit.unc.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=csa.

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



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Subject: Re: asparagus
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 00 08:34:40 -0800
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>I want to start a 1/2 acre asparagus bed.  It will be on piece of ground
>that was over-grazed pasture under oak trees on a steep hillside of clay and
>rock soil.

Is this the best or only site for your enterprise? From your description 
it sounds like you'll be fighting your soil for a long time.

Ideal conditions for crops don't necessarily eliminate all conditions 
outside the ideal, however, the farther away you get from what the crop 
likes, the more work required. Asparagus' ideal soil is sandy loam with a 
fairly high organic matter/humus content, with a pH close to 7. "The Real 
Dirt" published by NOFA suggests that potassium and phosphorus levels 
should be high for asparagus. Suggested N applications after 
establishment are 5-10 tons per acre of aged manure or compost.

Another good source for information on asparagus, and other crops, is 
Vern Grubinger's "Sustainable Vegetable Production from Start-up to 
Market," published by NRAES and available through any farm publications 
source.

Aaron

Creative Growers
Aaron Silverman
88741 Torrence Rd.
Noti, Or. 97461
cgrowers@pond.net
Quality Produce & Pastured Poultry


From whistle@halcyon.com Thu Feb 03 11:29:21 2000
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Subject: Re: bonemeal & dried blood
From: "Shelley Pasco" <whistle@halcyon.com>
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Liz,
Here, we're encouraged not to use blood and bone meal because nobody can be
sure that the pathogens aren't there. Remember mad-cow disease? Nothing
kills it, and there's no way to segregate the cows that end up in these
products. I wouldn't use them myself. Not unless you could be sure of the
health of the animals
Shelley
Whistling Train Farm
Kent, WA

----------
>From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
>To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
>Subject: bonemeal & dried blood
>Date: Thu, Feb 3, 2000, 8:15 AM
>

> Bonemeal & dried blood are allowed under my state certifying agency.
> Is there a risk to using these??  Are they processed enough to kill
> lurking pathogens? I don't put meat in my compost, and wonder if this
> isn't in effect doing the same thing. This may all be irrational
> seeing as the "experts" say it's okay. But I don't trust anyone, until
> I've seen/read/heard proof myself, and so far, the jury's out.
> Also...
> Can rock phosphate be 0-46%-0 ??  (I know-I'm a pit bull.  Persuade
> me, PLEASE!!  This number seems high for unadulterated rp.)
>
> Liz
> Morningstar Gardens
> Pollocksville NC
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: whistle@halcyon.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
> 

From whistle@halcyon.com Thu Feb 03 11:34:54 2000
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Subject: Re: Information on subscription gardens, please?
From: "Shelley Pasco" <whistle@halcyon.com>
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1. I guess you mean how many do we decide on? We started with 15 the first
year, then went up to 30, then 50, this year we'll have 75. We haven't done
any advertising. The first year we wound up in an article in a small
community newspaper and it's just taken off from there. Word of mouth.

2. We start out by making a list of what people should get each week. Then
check the comparative value of supermarket and organic produce here. We
average it all together and end up with $300 for small shares and $450 for
large shares for 25 weeks.

3. No contract. We make sure everyone understands that we don't promise them
the moon. Things may fail and other things may go overboard. We just promise
them lots of food for their tables, and we plant lots of contingency crops.

4.We guarantee that they'll get variety. We don't guarantee quantity, and we
don't get specific. Once things are up and going, we make sure they get
something from all the departments: roots, greens, fruiting plants, onions.
We do farmers markets too, so we usually have lots of produce, we just keep
a good variety.  They usually don't get lots of the specialty stuff, like
artichokes and radicchio, that's for markets. But if there's enough, they'll
get a taste.

Shelley
Whistling Train Farm
Kent, WA

----------
>From: KWallie@aol.com
>To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
>Subject: Information on subscription gardens, please?
>Date: Thu, Feb 3, 2000, 6:45 AM
>

> when i joined the list, it was at the tail-end of a discussion of
> subscription gardening..got me to thinking, and i think i would really like
> information..
>
> 1..how do you determine subscribers?
>
> 2..how do you go about pricing?
>
> 3..do you do a contract?
>
> 4..do you guarantee that subscribers get X pounds of produce each week, X
> number of varieties, or just they get a percentage of your weekly harvest?
>
> am really curious now, spoke with our county agent yesterday and now he is
> curious too...looking forward to lots of good information...katherine
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: whistle@halcyon.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
> 

From pike@always-online.com Thu Feb 03 11:40:43 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-35698-2000.02.03-11.29.19--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: bonemeal & dried blood
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I'm well aware of mad-cow.  Which is why I don't understand why it's
allowed here.  Is this so in other states??

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC


From flowers@rt66.com Thu Feb 03 11:52:48 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: Seeders



id invest in planet jr with the three seed plates you can seed just about
any seed and add the brush option for better control of seed placment

with a push handle and you can hand seed on 9-11 inch centers 
then when you expand you operation you can add a bar clamp and and add more
seeder units and put it on your tractor ..... cost ~` 250 used; 500 new ...

martin



>Hi Andy (glad to see you here!) and any others who can help,
>
>I was planning to purchase an Earthway seeder this year as
>we expand our planting area which will include among other
>things, an acre of cantelope, a sizeable plot of sunflowers
>and extensive cover crops (thank you all for the discussion
>on tilling).  After the recent discussion on Earthway
>seeders, I'm reconsidering.  I just pulled out my reference,
>your Backyard Market Gardening book, and wondered if you're
>still using the three-abreast Earthways?
>
>Sounds like they have problems with sunflower seeds and fine
>seeds, but I haven't seen any other suggestions.  Does
>anyone have something they WOULD recommend?
>
>Thanks for writing your book, Andy.  It was my original
>inspiration to do this!
>
>Marcy Nameth
>SE Colorado
>
>
>
>Mary Hoelterhoff wrote:
>> 
>> E&R Seed
>> 1356 E 200 S
>> Monroe, IN 46772
>> 
>> Sells earthway seeder for $67.95 (includes freight charge)
>>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: flowers@rt66.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>
>
>
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow

5059898337 office
5057578337 farm april/november
5059203421 cell



From flowers@rt66.com Thu Feb 03 11:59:45 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: Help with Greenhouse


we do them ..chile peppers at 75 min 85 max 10-14 dys germination ...60 bit
too cold especially for germination

we built a mist tent...box covered with clear plastic and has bottom heat
pads well worth it  place inside greenhouse   then move flats to open
greenhouse at fter see germination  ...also might try mycostop if its labled
for peppers eliminates damping off its a proprietory streptomycetes mix from
ag bio developement  we use it on ornamentals and have never lost a plug 

martin


 >Mornin'.
>
>I'm about to erect a GH, specifically to start pepper seedlings.
>
>I understand the bottom heat thing to get them going (or, I may start
>them inside then take them out, covered, to the GH).  But as peppers
>like it hot to grow, how would they do in a 55 or 60 degree GH?
>
>TIA,
>
>Robert.
>
>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: flowers@rt66.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to
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>
>
>
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow

5059898337 office
5057578337 farm april/november
5059203421 cell



From sojournr@missouri.org Thu Feb 03 12:03:31 2000
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Subject: Re: Orchards and fruit trees
References: <LYR98963-35560-2000.02.02-23.24.34--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99136-35631-2000.02.03-07.50.46--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Elizabeth Pike wrote:
> 
> Warning!  Pasture & fruit trees do not mix !!  Remember our last
> thread-e. coli?? 

If you're going to be afraid of e. coli, keeping your fruit trees out of
the pasture is not going to help you.  E. coli 0157 (the one that keeps
causing all the bad outbreaks via infected meat) is carried by dogs,
horses, deer, birds, and a plethora of other creatures including human
beings.

The only "solution" would seem to be to grow all your foods in a
greenhouse - or irradiate everything.

Please keep in mind that the chances of ever coming into contact with
dangerous strains of e coli are very low.  Factory farming, by
concentrating huge numbers of animals very close together, makes a very
very small risk much larger because of crowded and usually unsanitary
conditions.

One dairy cow, one or two calves, and less than a dozen sheep on 9 acres
of pasture are not the same sort of system at all.

Also, there seems to be evidence indicating that cattle and sheep that
forage for their food are much less at risk than grain fed animals. 
What's more, rotational grazing practices reduce contamination and
cross-contamination risks even further for all manner of pathogens and
parasites.

>  Besides livestock love fruit--ever seen a tree
> climbing goat ; ) ?? 

Personally, I wouldn't own a goat if you paid me.  And yes, the trees
will have to be protected until they get larger - but so will ANY trees
that I plant in the pasture.  It will help that the trees will predate
any livestock by probably a couple of years.  Even in the small orchard
area I put in, I will occassionally turn sheep and chickens in there to
clean up windfall fruit.

> We have 10 apple trees, 6 plum & 3 pear, all
> about 7-12 years old, some full size, some dwarf.   You'd wither & die
> waiting for them to shade you, including the full size ones. 

Definitely not my experience with apple trees.  I'm not looking for full
shade, as you would want for your house, but zones of light shade. 
Planting trees - any sort of trees - in pasture has a lot of benefits
for the pasture as a whole and for the animals that inhabit it,
including reduced loss of moisture due to transpiration, shade for the
animals (resulting in less stress and lower water needs for the animals
as well), an over all cooling effect for the area planted this way, and
other benefits.

My pasture is currently treeless and exposed to baking hot summer sun
from early morning until late in the evening.  I'm planning on planting
a variety of trees to change this situation, including willow oak, honey
locust, and yes, some fruit trees as well.

I especially want to experiment with fruit tree seedlings.  Sure, fruit
tree seedlings are going to be wildly variable, but heck, where's the
fun in life if you can't experiment?  Red Delicious came from a seedling
back in the 1870's.  Stark paid some guy $25,000 in the 50's for a Red
Delicious mutation that goes by the name "Starkrimson". now  Heirloom
trees frequently do come true to seed.

Planting a fruit tree from seed is like getting a surprise present. 
Don't like the fruit?  Cut it down eventually for the lumber.  Or use it
as grafting root stock for some more successful variety (and get some
grafting practice on something that doesn't matter if it dies).  In the
meantime there's shade and probably animal fodder as well right out
there in the pasture (sheep and chickens are very good at cleaning up
fallen fruit), and I've had an interesting time seeing what will come
up.  How can I lose? 

> They
> have a tendency to grow straight up without pruning to keep them
> manageable.   Deer love them!  Leaves, bark & all!

Pruning - well, my views on pruning are unconventional.  So we'll leave
that.  But how any tree grows depends on the variety - some apples are
quite spreading in habit.  Some are not.

As for deers, they aren't going to love my fruit trees any less if I
concentrate them all together in an orchard.  Deer love ANY newly
planted tree - but hopefully between my dogs and keeping the new trees
scattered about hither and yon rather than all concentrated together
like a smorgasbord, more will survive than not.
 
Maybe not.  We'll just have to see.  But I had *no* deer damage here
last year to my (poor pitiful) garden, despite seeing the occasional
track through the garden.  The dogs seem to keep them moving, without
even having to chase them (my dogs are not free running and won't be
until I have proper fencing up to keep them confined).

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

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Shelley Pasco wrote:
> 
> Liz,
> Here, we're encouraged not to use blood and bone meal
> because nobody can be sure that the pathogens aren't
> there. Remember mad-cow disease? 

Yeah, its practically eradicated in the few areas it ever occurred now. 
There has never been any occurrence, as in not one single, of mad cow
disease in any animal on this continent.  All importations of beef and
beef byproducts from infected areas were totally banned in the mid-80s.

> Nothing kills it

Not true.  It's difficult to destroy but sterilization techniques were
identified early on for destroying the pathogen.

It's not strictly alive, being a prion and not a microbe.

> and there's no way to segregate the cows that end up in these
> products.

Since there are no infected cattle in this country and never have been
this is really not a big concern.  In Britain, infected cattle WERE
identified and culled from herds; that's why their eradication and
control programs have been so successful.

Liz said:

> . . . I don't understand why its allowed here

It's allowed because there has never been one single case of mad cow
disease here, so there's no reason NOT to allow it.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Thu Feb 03 12:10:34 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Orchards and fruit trees
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:09:44 -0800
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I can tell you from experience, goats are browsers too.  If the tree is
short enough, they'll probably lop off the top.  But if you expose them to
it when it's a little older, they'll just stand on their hind legs and munch
those branches.

Deer do the same thing.

And rabbits gird the tree.

Rose


From rbfarr@erols.com Thu Feb 03 12:16:11 2000
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Martin:

For damping off, try using chamomile tea - 1 tsp. for cup of water.
Steep for 10 min., cool and pour.

It saved over 300 seedlings of mine last winter.  It's cheap, it works,
and it's completely non-toxic!

Robert.



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From: five springs farm <fsfarm@mufn.org>

>Yes, your phosphate can be 0-46-0

Okay, I won't ask again (received a disturbing email about it this
morning, got me all worked up again, ugh.)

> We mix our own fertilizer from the alfalfa, greensand, kelp, and
rock
> phosphate (sometimes a little wood ash) from proportions we
calculated from
> John Jeavons "How to Grow More Vegetables..."  We are very satisfied
with
> the results.

I do this too, but must vary the recipe due to the inability, without
a lot of effort, to get  greensand or kelp.  I dislike shipping &
prefer to keep $ local as much as possible.  Last year, in early
summer, I observed how the grass took off when my daughters threw
their buckets full of algae off to the side of our dock.  I harvested
some from the far side of the lake--very carefully--surprised a couple
of river snakes (& they surprised me-first time I fell
overboard-LOL-what will we not do for the sake of our profession??!!)
& dried it to mix in with my next batch of fertilizer.  I experimented
with 2 fall beds of broccoli, using algae -based fertilier on one &
fertilizer w/o algae on the other.  There was a visible difference in
the two plantings.  The algae-based plants were greener, grew a bit
quicker & had stronger stalks.  Unfortunately, along came our
hurricanes, and the experiment was destroyed.  I so looked forward to
continuing this experiment this year, but alas, the logging must be
done.

I have Jeavon's & Coleman's books.  Here is something I do not
understand.  Jeavons recommends rock/soft phosphate in his fertilizer
mixtures.  Coleman advises them for long term fertilization on a 2, 6,
10+year regimen.  If rp is slow release, why put it in as Jeavons'
recommends??  Do the phosphates break down quicker in intensive
planting as opposed to row crops?  Coleman plants in beds, too.  This
appears contradictory.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC


From sojournr@missouri.org Thu Feb 03 12:24:36 2000
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Subject: Re: Orchards and fruit trees
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S & S Aqua Farm wrote:
> 
> We've had only one or two market members who grew and
> supplied tree fruits (apples, peaches and pears as I
> recall). 

Yeah, that's been my observation, that very few vendors (if any) have
tree fruits at farmer's markets.

It'd be years before I had any fruit to offer, but every little bit
helps.

>  But, they were VERY popular folks during
> their season:>)  I'll try to look up a couple of phone numbers for
> you to contact for varieties and growing tips as well.

Thanks.  I appreciate your help (yet again!)

> We also have some members supplying berries (blue,
> black, straw and rasp) each year. 

Typically when I've seen fruits at farmer's markets those are the types
I've seen (the berries).  I keep waffling on whether or not I want to
get into berry fruits; other than strawberries, I never eat any myself.

Can you recall off the top of your head what sorts of prices you have
typically seen the other vendors charging?  I'm not sure what the market
will bear around here.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From pike@always-online.com Thu Feb 03 12:26:32 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <200002031651.LAA25391@gardenweb.vmirror.com>
Subject: Re: Bone meal, dried blood
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:27:58 -0500
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I received this reply from another source.  Any comments please??
(This is what drives me nuts in farming.  I know, I know, part
science, part magic.  At least I KNOW what's in my compost & manure
from the start.)

> Hi Liz - any bone meal that can be purchased around here has been
high pressure steam processed.  As a result it is as pathogen free as
your home canned foods or pressure cooked meals would be...at least.
And, it is FAR more pathogen free than compost or manure can be made
yet we use them freely and even encourage their use, right?
>
> I think it is important to remember, since this subject has come up
before and probably will again, that we are not talking human or even
domestic animal (as in pets) bones and blood here; sources known to
cross the pathogenic barrier.  These are slaughterhouse products and
as such are not noted for communicable disease pathogens with the
exception of possible e-coli contamination.  The steam processing thus
makes them far less pathogen-free than is the steak or chicken you
bring home from the store.
>
> Please believe that I mean no criticism of you for asking this.  You
are not the first, but it always strikes me as curious that gardeners
who freely use dirt and compost and manures and mouldy leaves and
heaven knows what else in their gardens (even chemicals) fear these
products for some reason and I am at a loss to explain it.  Even if
the products weren't so heavily processed, their very nature renders
them far more 'sterile' than rotten kitchen veggies or many other
things we use freely.  I hope this reassures you somewhat.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC



From lh@pressroom.com Thu Feb 03 12:39:11 2000
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 >
References:
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 nc.edu>
 <LYR99136-35631-2000.02.03-07.50.46--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.un
 c.edu>
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:38:48 -0500
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Leigh Hauter <lh@pressroom.com>
Subject: Re: Orchards and fruit trees


Holly, nice comments on fruit trees.
We're going to put in over 50 more apple trees in an area the goats have
been clearing/killing for the past year (yes, I too believe anyone who
grows vegetables for a living is crazy to keep such a dangerous animal
around, but....) and are looking for a recommended nursery.  Suggestion?
The always out of the office extention agent hasn't gotten back with his 2
cents.  We're in Virginia.  What are your favorite cooking varieties?
We're going to grow them for our own eating and cooking use, juice, and as
a sort of pick-your-own lost leader addition to our vegetable share
program. We have about a dozen trees now.

From pike@always-online.com Thu Feb 03 12:46:20 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-35560-2000.02.02-23.24.34--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99136-35631-2000.02.03-07.50.46--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-35712-2000.02.03-12.03.27--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Orchards and fruit trees
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Holly wrote:

> If you're going to be afraid of e. coli, keeping your fruit trees
out of
> the pasture is not going to help you.  E. coli 0157 (the one that
keeps
> causing all the bad outbreaks via infected meat) is carried by dogs,
> horses, deer, birds, and a plethora of other creatures including
human
> beings.

I understand this, really I do.  I just don't like to invite trouble.
Low chance, small chance, any chance-I won't risk it for myself, my
family, or my customers.

> Also, there seems to be evidence indicating that cattle and sheep
that
> forage for their food are much less at risk than grain fed animals.
> What's more, rotational grazing practices reduce contamination and
> cross-contamination risks even further for all manner of pathogens
and
> parasites.

Then how do deer get it (or other pathogens)??

> Planting trees (for) reduced loss of moisture due to transpiration,
shade for the
> animals (resulting in less stress and lower water needs for the
animals
> as well), an over all cooling effect for the area planted this way,
and
> other benefits.

Wouldn't this take ALOT of trees to do all this??


>Even in the small orchard area I put in, I will occassionally turn
sheep and chickens in there to clean up windfall fruit.

Deer droppings cleaned up??

> Pruning - well, my views on pruning are unconventional.  So we'll
leave
> that.  But how any tree grows depends on the variety - some apples
are
> quite spreading in habit.  Some are not.

True.  But I do want to reach my fruit, reduce insect infestations &
disease, &
control the tree's growth for maximum production.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC






From mcsmiths@elgin.net Thu Feb 03 12:57:09 2000
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References: <LYR99215-35655-2000.02.03-09.55.48--rbfarr#erols.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR100910-35664-2000.02.03-10.06.02--mcsmiths#elgin.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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We have been growing transplants on a large scale for several years.......we embedded a
heating cables in fine gravel on the upper surface of the benches that the trays sat
on...........we have been rigged up with a thermostat .

cathy mcs

Robert Farr wrote:

> Does someone on the list have a good source for (inexpensive)
> propagation mats?
>
> TIA,
>
> Robert.
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: mcsmiths@elgin.net
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')


From sojournr@missouri.org Thu Feb 03 12:57:25 2000
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References: <200002031651.LAA25391@gardenweb.vmirror.com> <LYR99136-35725-2000.02.03-12.26.30--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Elizabeth Pike wrote:
> 
> I received this reply from another source.  Any comments please??
> (This is what drives me nuts in farming.  I know, I know, part
> science, part magic.  At least I KNOW what's in my compost & manure
> from the start.)
> 
> > Hi Liz - any bone meal that can be purchased around here has been
> high pressure steam processed.  As a result it is as pathogen free as
> your home canned foods or pressure cooked meals would be...at least.
> And, it is FAR more pathogen free than compost or manure can be made
> yet we use them freely and even encourage their use, right?

Factual, well-stated, and I wish I could communicate this well.  <VBG>

A pressure/steam sterilizing process will kill anything, including the
prion that causes mad cow disease.  I forget the exact pressure/temp
required but you could find it via a web search if you need the exact
numbers.  (That's where I found the info a couple or three years back)

Prior to mad cow disease a steam-only process was frequently used; the
steam only process would destroy many or most of any prions present, but
what happened in Britain (and I don't know if this happened here too)
was that they went from the steam process to a chemical process that was
not sufficient to destroy prions present in infected material.  This
material was then fed back into the cattle population and they soon had
an epidemic on their hands.

As soon as they realized what was up the processing method was changed
to the current method of using pressurized steam, which does destroy the
prions.

That all happened in Britain, but the US adopted new methods for safety
here to make SURE we didn't have an outbreak.  And we haven't had one.

As for the practice of making carnivores out of cows - well, that's a
discussion for another list.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From goodows@excite.com Thu Feb 03 12:59:23 2000
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If you live in the middle states this is worth going to. I have been the
past 5 years and have learned lots and lots. Plus you can catch my row cover
workshop on Sunday. The food is even good (not your average conference faire
but local organic food creatively prepared)
>  


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





_______________________________________________________
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From goodows@excite.com Thu Feb 03 13:07:45 2000
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If you live in the middle states this is worth going to. I have been the
past 5 years and have learned lots and lots. Plus you can catch my row cover
workshop on Sunday. The food is even good (not your average conference faire
but local organic food creatively prepared)
>  


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





_______________________________________________________
Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite
Visit http://freeworld.excite.com


From kampy@netins.net Thu Feb 03 13:14:21 2000
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Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:09:59 -0600
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Subject: Corn Gluten
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I have been hearing about using corn gluten as an organic weed control.
The Small Fruit Conference to be held later this month in Springfield,
Missouri has the use of corn gluten for weed control in strawberries on
their agenda.

I bought a bag of corn gluten at the local feed store, thinking I would get
a head start and put some on the strawberries, but I chickened out.  This
stuff isn't certified organic and smells to high heaven.  What was I
thinking???  I decided it would be prudent to wait until more information
is available on the subject.  Does anyone here know about using corn gluten?

Marie in Missouri


From awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us Thu Feb 03 13:21:42 2000
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Subject: RE: Corn Gluten
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I trialed it several years ago in our unheated coldframe on early tomatoes.
It worked impressively where the soil alternated between moist and dry.  Not
at all where it was either too dry or too wet. I bought it from "Gardens
Alive" in their first promotion of it and got a really good price and it was
golden yellow, finely granulated.  What the feed mills often have has
molasses added to it. Also, with the high amount of corn acreage in the US
being planted to transgenic varieties (BT and Roundup Ready), I'd be
cautious about trying it again.  It also has a N response, so of you use it,
be careful of how much other nitrogen source you are using.
I'd be interested in any sources anyone has for corn gluten without GMO
varieties that is pure.  It does work.

Alison Wiediger
Smiths Grove, KY


> ----------
> From: 	Marie Kamphefner[SMTP:kampy@netins.net]
>  
> 
> I bought a bag of corn gluten at the local feed store, thinking I would
> get
> a head start and put some on the strawberries, but I chickened out.  This
> stuff isn't certified organic and smells to high heaven.  What was I
> thinking???  I decided it would be prudent to wait until more information
> is available on the subject.  Does anyone here know about using corn
> gluten?
> 
> Marie in Missouri
> 
> 
> 
> 

From goodows@excite.com Thu Feb 03 13:34:34 2000
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If you live in the middle states this is worth going to. I have been the
past 5 years and have learned lots and lots. Plus you can catch my row cover
workshop on Sunday. The food is even good (not your average conference faire
but local organic food creatively prepared)
>  


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





_______________________________________________________
Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite
Visit http://freeworld.excite.com


From sojournr@missouri.org Thu Feb 03 13:44:04 2000
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Elizabeth Pike wrote:
> 
> Then how do deer get it (or other pathogens)??

They still GET it occasionally, but the consequences are nowhere near as
severe, and it doesn't get passed around as widely or as quickly.  I've
only seen two studies on this issue so far (diet as it affects e. coli
transmission and severity) so I'm not saying all the facts are in yet.

The study done on cattle being fed hay (control group fed grain)
indicated that while e. coli 0157 was still present, it was present in
smaller numbers, and it was far more susceptible to degradation and
eventual destruction by human stomach acids.  What this means for people
is that even if you did manage to ingest some e coli from one of these
animals, it wouldn't be able to reproduce or persist as well as e coli
from a grain fed animal.  So your chances of actually getting sick are
reduced, and the severity of any illness would also be greatly reduced.

Jury's still out, but its not a hopeless situation by a long shot.
 
> Wouldn't this take ALOT of trees to do all this??

Not really, no.  Planting trees about 60 feet apart gives you a
noticeable improvement over a treeless pasture.  An acre is roughly 207
feet square, so thats about 9 or 10 trees per acre (roughly, doing the
math in my head).  Part of the improvement is due to the increased
number and variety of soil critters that can move in and help make the
whole shebang a healthier and more varied system.

Trees in the pasture used to be quite common, but the advent of powered
farm machinery rang the death knell for that - trees were "in the way"
so down they went.

> >Even in the small orchard area I put in, I will occassionally turn
> sheep and chickens in there to clean up windfall fruit.
> 
> Deer droppings cleaned up??

LOL!  No, I imagine any deer droppings would be long ago degraded into
the soil.  I've seen deer TRACKS up here but never any deer SCAT.  It
must be here somewhere, but I've never seen any.  No matter what I do I
can't stop deer pooping all over the place - I've got 26 acres, and
there's only one other house for a mile in any direction.

> But I do want to reach my fruit, reduce insect infestations &
> disease, & control the tree's growth for maximum production.

That's why I say my views on pruning are unconventional - no matter what
the tree produces its already more than I need, I already have more land
than I need, I'm undoubtedly going to end up with more fruit trees than
I "need", so the only thing I'm interested in maximizing is my leisure
time.  <VBG>

Insect infestations are much less if the tree is situated in a healthy
system to start with, if you keep windfall fruit cleaned up (or let your
livestock do it for you), and if you don't concentrate 100s of the same
type of tree all together.  The harder the bugs have to work to find the
trees, the harder it will be for them to turn into a full-blown
infestation.  Mono-cropping, IMHO, is always a bad thing.  Diversity is
Good.  Just my opinion.

Once you start heavy pruning, you will have to keep it up.  But our
apples were almost never sprayed, seldom pruned, largely ignored, and
still produced more apples than we could use.  They were all old
varieties, now.  Many newer varieties are often much pickier and seem
more fragile than old apples.  There are only something like 22,000
different named varieties of apples, I'm sure I can find a COUPLE I can
freely abuse!  <VBG>

If you're interested, you might consider reading Gene Logsdon's "Organic
Orcharding - A Grove of Trees to Live In".

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From sojournr@missouri.org Thu Feb 03 13:49:42 2000
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Marie Kamphefner wrote:
> 
> I have been hearing about using corn gluten as an organic weed control.
> The Small Fruit Conference to be held later this month in Springfield,
> Missouri

When and where will this be held?  I'm about an hour and a half from
Springfield, I would very much like to attend.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From whistle@halcyon.com Thu Feb 03 13:58:50 2000
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Subject: Re: Bone meal, dried blood
From: "Shelley Pasco" <whistle@halcyon.com>
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Liz, I think what scares me more about these products are the unknowns. I 
remember hearing that no one could be sure that steaming or baking bone meal
would render the mad-cow prions inactive. There's just no way to know
because it can have an incubation period of up to 20 years. Who's been
testing that? Sojourner said that there haven't been any cases found here
(YET). There may be animals or people running around with the prions in
their systems, just waiting to become active.
The thing is, I'm not certain enough that it's safe. I don't want to absorb
these things.
I wouldn't mind composting offal from my own animals that have been feed
only vegetable proteins, but not if they've been fed animal products.
Shelley
Whistling Train Farm
Kent, WA

----------
>From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
>To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
>Subject: Re: Bone meal, dried blood
>Date: Thu, Feb 3, 2000, 9:27 AM
>

> I received this reply from another source.  Any comments please??
> (This is what drives me nuts in farming.  I know, I know, part
> science, part magic.  At least I KNOW what's in my compost & manure
> from the start.)
>
>> Hi Liz - any bone meal that can be purchased around here has been
> high pressure steam processed.  As a result it is as pathogen free as
> your home canned foods or pressure cooked meals would be...at least.
> And, it is FAR more pathogen free than compost or manure can be made
> yet we use them freely and even encourage their use, right?
>>
>> I think it is important to remember, since this subject has come up
> before and probably will again, that we are not talking human or even
> domestic animal (as in pets) bones and blood here; sources known to
> cross the pathogenic barrier.  These are slaughterhouse products and
> as such are not noted for communicable disease pathogens with the
> exception of possible e-coli contamination.  The steam processing thus
> makes them far less pathogen-free than is the steak or chicken you
> bring home from the store.
>>
>> Please believe that I mean no criticism of you for asking this.  You
> are not the first, but it always strikes me as curious that gardeners
> who freely use dirt and compost and manures and mouldy leaves and
> heaven knows what else in their gardens (even chemicals) fear these
> products for some reason and I am at a loss to explain it.  Even if
> the products weren't so heavily processed, their very nature renders
> them far more 'sterile' than rotten kitchen veggies or many other
> things we use freely.  I hope this reassures you somewhat.
>
> Liz
> Morningstar Gardens
> Pollocksville NC
>
>
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: whistle@halcyon.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
> 

From bennett@frognet.net Thu Feb 03 14:13:44 2000
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From: "D.Bennett" <bennett@frognet.net>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: asparagus
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:05:44 -0500
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>>I want to start a 1/2 acre asparagus bed.  It will be on piece of ground
>>that was over-grazed pasture under oak trees on a steep hillside of clay
and
>>rock soil.
>
>Is this the best or only site for your enterprise? From your description
>it sounds like you'll be fighting your soil for a long time.
>
    Unfortunately, it's the ONLY site for the asparagus.  I do have
a nearly unlimited source of horse manure, mostly without
any straw, hay or sawdust mixed with it.  I have a fair amount
of wood shavings available and I think I can get corn cobs.
    Now, I can compost all of the above and spread it on this
ground real heavy, maybe even plow it under to start the
bed.  Besides getting lime on the ground too, what are
your suggestions?

    I'm thinking of covering the rows of asparagus with
wire hoop tunnels, then pasturing poultry in the area.
Please comment on this notion. :-)




From goodows@excite.com Thu Feb 03 14:38:25 2000
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From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley <goodows@excite.com>
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We have about 6 apple trees and 3 pear trees that we have been rehabing for
8 years and last year we got a decent apple crop and a bumper pear crop. We
do the orchard as a side venture and basically because the trees were
already here when we moved in. They are all certified organic and get less
buggy each season. They have responded really well to tractoring chickens
under them and this year we got 2 swarms of bees which really helped a lot
with disease and pollination problems. We have never been really great about
a spray programm but usually get sticky traps in the trees and get them
pruned each winter. We do a lot of daily clean up of drops in the summer and
keep the areas kind of on the weedy side to keep insect damage down. We make
sauce, cider and dried apples from the trees. 

I don't know all the types but we do have summer rambo, two kinds of
winesaps (the best tasting) and a maine blush and one tree with 4 types
which each year  seem to be more and more alike.
>  


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





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From goodows@excite.com Thu Feb 03 14:38:27 2000
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On Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:20:52 -0500, market farming wrote:

>  
>  From: five springs farm <fsfarm@mufn.org>
>  
>  >Yes, your phosphate can be 0-46-0
>  
>  Okay, I won't ask again (received a disturbing email about it this
>  morning, got me all worked up again, ugh.)
>  
>  > We mix our own fertilizer from the alfalfa, greensand, kelp, and
>  rock
>  > phosphate (sometimes a little wood ash) from proportions we
>  calculated from
>  > John Jeavons "How to Grow More Vegetables..."  We are very satisfied
>  with
>  > the results.
>  
>  I do this too, but must vary the recipe due to the inability, without
>  a lot of effort, to get  greensand or kelp. 
Liz have you ever contacted the fertrell company to see if there is a local
dealer in your area. The URL is http://www.fertrell.com. They have both
greensand and kelp at resonable prices, Though not all their inputs are
considered certifiably organic those two are and the company's heart seems
in the right place. I know from experience that their cottonseed meal is NOT
organic.
>  


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





_______________________________________________________
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From goodows@excite.com Thu Feb 03 15:08:41 2000
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From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley <goodows@excite.com>
Reply-To:  <goodows@excite.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Orchards and fruit trees
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We have about 6 apple trees and 3 pear trees that we have been rehabing for
8 years and last year we got a decent apple crop and a bumper pear crop. We
do the orchard as a side venture and basically because the trees were
already here when we moved in. They are all certified organic and get less
buggy each season. They have responded really well to tractoring chickens
under them and this year we got 2 swarms of bees which really helped a lot
with disease and pollination problems. We have never been really great about
a spray programm but usually get sticky traps in the trees and get them
pruned each winter. We do a lot of daily clean up of drops in the summer and
keep the areas kind of on the weedy side to keep insect damage down. We make
sauce, cider and dried apples from the trees. 

I don't know all the types but we do have summer rambo, two kinds of
winesaps (the best tasting) and a maine blush and one tree with 4 types
which each year  seem to be more and more alike.
>  


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





_______________________________________________________
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From goodows@excite.com Thu Feb 03 15:17:44 2000
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On Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:20:52 -0500, market farming wrote:

>  
>  From: five springs farm <fsfarm@mufn.org>
>  
>  >Yes, your phosphate can be 0-46-0
>  
>  Okay, I won't ask again (received a disturbing email about it this
>  morning, got me all worked up again, ugh.)
>  
>  > We mix our own fertilizer from the alfalfa, greensand, kelp, and
>  rock
>  > phosphate (sometimes a little wood ash) from proportions we
>  calculated from
>  > John Jeavons "How to Grow More Vegetables..."  We are very satisfied
>  with
>  > the results.
>  
>  I do this too, but must vary the recipe due to the inability, without
>  a lot of effort, to get  greensand or kelp. 
Liz have you ever contacted the fertrell company to see if there is a local
dealer in your area. The URL is http://www.fertrell.com. They have both
greensand and kelp at resonable prices, Though not all their inputs are
considered certifiably organic those two are and the company's heart seems
in the right place. I know from experience that their cottonseed meal is NOT
organic.
>  


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





_______________________________________________________
Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite
Visit http://freeworld.excite.com


From goodows@excite.com Thu Feb 03 15:17:58 2000
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From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley <goodows@excite.com>
Reply-To:  <goodows@excite.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Orchards and fruit trees
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We have about 6 apple trees and 3 pear trees that we have been rehabing for
8 years and last year we got a decent apple crop and a bumper pear crop. We
do the orchard as a side venture and basically because the trees were
already here when we moved in. They are all certified organic and get less
buggy each season. They have responded really well to tractoring chickens
under them and this year we got 2 swarms of bees which really helped a lot
with disease and pollination problems. We have never been really great about
a spray programm but usually get sticky traps in the trees and get them
pruned each winter. We do a lot of daily clean up of drops in the summer and
keep the areas kind of on the weedy side to keep insect damage down. We make
sauce, cider and dried apples from the trees. 

I don't know all the types but we do have summer rambo, two kinds of
winesaps (the best tasting) and a maine blush and one tree with 4 types
which each year  seem to be more and more alike.
>  


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





_______________________________________________________
Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite
Visit http://freeworld.excite.com


From lgriffith@kchomecare.com Thu Feb 03 15:52:59 2000
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From: "Leslie Griffith" <lgriffith@kchomecare.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: RE: Corn Gluten
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:55:49 -0600
Message-ID: <000e01bf6e89$0c961300$ac0b5ad1@kchomecare.com>
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I'm just south of Kansas City, Holly, which direction are you????

Leslie

-----Original Message-----
From: Sojourner [mailto:sojournr@missouri.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 12:54 PM
To: market farming
Subject: Re: Corn Gluten


Marie Kamphefner wrote:
>
> I have been hearing about using corn gluten as an organic weed control.
> The Small Fruit Conference to be held later this month in Springfield,
> Missouri

When and where will this be held?  I'm about an hour and a half from
Springfield, I would very much like to attend.

--
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

---
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From lh@pressroom.com Thu Feb 03 15:54:16 2000
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Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 15:54:25 -0500
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: Leigh Hauter <lh@pressroom.com>
Subject: e.coli contamination


Since this has been discussed so much on this list, more info


just posted a new page about the myth of E.Coli / Faecal
Contamination in Organic food on my site at :

http://www.connectotel.com/gmfood/gmfaec.html

From fullcircle@jps.net Thu Feb 03 16:15:20 2000
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Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:14:50 -0800
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: FAQ info needed, books and authors


Now that you all know how to reply individually ;-) I'd like to do two FAQs
for the list and the website

E-mail me privately with your favorite farming books, you know, the one's
you'd rescue in a fire.  I'll sort by category.  A one paragraph review
would be appropriate.

There are several authors/publishers/speakers/consultants on the list.  If
you e-mail me PRIVATELY with ONE paragraph and contact information, I'll
create a FAQ for the website and print it once on the list.

Here are the rules
Do NOT forward this to any other lists this is for current listees only.
It must be related to market farming.
You must be a subscriber to the list or a registered user.
It must be you or your book/publication, not a business you happen to own
stock in

Send 'em to me in the nest 4 days, please.

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From fullcircle@jps.net Thu Feb 03 16:15:34 2000
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Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:14:50 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Apple scab, potato scab


Hi all,

Scab on apples is cause by a fungus that overwinters on leaf fall under the
trees.  Rain splashes the fungus onto new shoots and fruits.  Additional
rain can cause secondary infections by splashing spores around the canopy.
Anti-fungals ie sulfur, can help stop an infection in progress.  Prevention
includes disking in or removing fallen leaves from the orchard floor.

Scab on potatoes is caused by a soil bacteria that's promoted by neutral or
basic soil.  It's a cosmetic problem, but in this culture...  Some
varieties are more prone to scab than others.  It also seems to be a
problem in soils amended with uncomposted manures

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From kampy@netins.net Thu Feb 03 16:21:40 2000
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Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 15:17:14 -0600
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From: Marie Kamphefner <kampy@netins.net>
Subject: E. coli
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My Acres U.S.A. paper came today and in it is a small article about E. coli.  

the headline:  "Startegies to Kill a Killer"

     "The often fatal strain of E. coli, a common intestinal bacterium, may
have its days numbered.  Recent research has come up with potentially
effective ways to head off 0157:H7, as the virulent strain is called, at
its source - cow guts.
     Researchers at Cornell University found that animals fed hay rather
than grain for a few days before slaughter have almost no 0157:H7 left in
their guts.  Also, Mike Doyle, director of the University of Georgia's
Center for Food Safety and Quality Enhancements, is promoting feeding
cattle several harmless varieties of E. coli which can crowd out the
harmful strain."  



From sojournr@missouri.org Thu Feb 03 16:41:40 2000
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Shelley Pasco wrote:
> 
> Liz, I think what scares me more about these products are the unknowns. I
> remember hearing that no one could be sure that steaming or baking bone meal
> would render the mad-cow prions inactive.

Dry heat will not destroy the prion.  Steam will destroy most but not
all of the prion.  Pressurized steam at the correct pressure/temp will
destroy the prion.

> There's just no way to know
> because it can have an incubation period of up to 20 years.

Twenty years is excessive.  The incubation period is 3 to 9 years.

> Who's been
> testing that?

The World Health Organization and any number of other organizations and
research facilities.  WHO tests worldwide for BSE (bovine spongiform
encephalopathy) as well for a number of other pathogens as part of a
world-wide epidemiology watch.

> Sojourner said that there haven't been any cases found
> here (YET). There may be animals or people running around
> with the prions in their systems, just waiting to become
> active.

Highly unlikely.  There has never been any evidence of the prion or the
disease in 15 years, 5 times the minimum incubation period and nearly
double the max.  There has been more than enough time for BSE to appear
in this country.

> The thing is, I'm not certain enough that it's safe. I
> don't want to absorb these things.

In order to be infected you must

1) ingest a significant amount of infected meat or other material, or
receive an injection of say a growth hormone from infected cattle. 
There are several such substances but they are rare and I don't remember
other than the growth hormone what they are.

For obvious reasons we have no statistical data on how much infected
material one must eat to have x percent risk of contracting BSE, but its
a lot.  Much more than you would get handling bone meal, even assuming
it were infected (and there has never been any infected material found
in this country, they even chased down about 500 cows that had been
imported from Britain and tested for BSE in those cows and the other
cattle they had been around and none was ever found).

Injected material (like the growth hormones), on the other hand, carries
a much much higher risk with much smaller quantities, again, assuming it
actually contains infectious material.

Only neural tissue has been found to be infectious, so even if a cow is
infected, the meat must be contaminated by neural tissue (brain, spinal
column, retinal tissue) to contain any infectious material.  This
lessens risk of exposure even more.

2) The prion must survive the species barrier - it is difficult for
non-human TSEs (Transmittable Spongiform Encephalopathies) to infect
humans.  They had great difficulty infecting mice with BSE under near
perfect laboratory conditions.  It can be done, and it can happen, but
its highly unlikely.  Even in Britain, during the period when BSE was
epidemic among cattle, fewer than 20 people came down with vCJD, which
is now believed to be linked to BSE.  This was during the time period
when estimates ranging from 3% to as high as 5% of retail beef may have
come from infected cattle.

3) You have to be genetically susceptible to CJD (Cruetzfeldt-Jakob's
disease, a human TSE which BSE mimics in humans).  There is a genetic
marker for this in humans, I forget which codon its on, but if you're
really really interested I'm sure I could dig it up.

It's very, very hard for a human to contract BSE even when exposed to
infected materials.  Your chances of getting killed in an auto accident
are much much higher.

Life cannot be made risk free.  I hate to bring it up again, but there's
always the possibility there's a meteorite out there with your name on
it.  <VBG>

I'm not trying to belittle your fears, but in all honesty you are
worrying about something that your risk of ever being exposed to, let
alone actually managing to contract it, is so vanishingly small as to be
negligible.  You're far more likely to be struck by lightning.

> I wouldn't mind composting offal from my own animals that
> have been fed only vegetable proteins, but not if they've
> been fed animal products.

Its certainly reasonable to take ordinary precautions, and I share your
distaste for the way feedlot cattle are fed (and poultry as well). 
There are a lot of good reasons to avoid agbiz factory meats; that's why
I'm planning on raising my own.  But in all honesty, fear of contracting
BSE is not one of them.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From whistle@halcyon.com Thu Feb 03 17:35:18 2000
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Subject: Re: Bone meal, dried blood
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Hi, I must say that I'm really impressed with your knowledge about this 
subject. I'm still hesitant to use these products, but your information has
put me more at ease. I guess when we don't know enough, it's easier to be
overanxious.The only part I'm confused on is the cross-species thing. I've
heard that BSE originated as Scrapie in sheep--are they just two versions of
the same thing? I hadn't heard about being genetically susceptible either.
You must have done an awful lot of research about this. Thanks for
straightening me out.
Shelley
Whistling Train Farm
Kent, WA


From sojournr@missouri.org Thu Feb 03 18:37:11 2000
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Shelley Pasco wrote:
> 
> The only part I'm confused on is the cross-species thing.
> I've heard that BSE originated as Scrapie in sheep--are
> they just two versions of the same thing?

I have to admit I'm weak on these particular details, but the last time
I extensively researched this scrapie was NOT thought to be the most
likely vector for the introduction of BSE into the beef supply in
Britain.  I'll tell you what I found out last time I went into this
extensively with the understanding that it may be outdated information
now.

In parts of Africa there are several known diseases of cattle and
relatives of cattle that are spongiform encephalopathies.  There were
several major outbreaks of one or more of these TSEs within African
bovine populations within the window of incubation/infection for the
start of the BSE epidemic.  Importation of potentially contaminated
materials for use as feed additives may have exposed British cattle to
infection via this vector.  In addition, within the window of
incubation, there was an epidemic among bovine species at the London Zoo
(I forget just which ones) that resulted in the deaths of several zoo
specimens.  It is believed that this disease was most likely a
spongiform encephalopathy (no brain autopsies were done, to my
knowledge).  These carcasses also found their way into the British
cattle feed supply.

Shortly prior to the time all this was happening, there had further been
a changeover from the old method of rendering animal carcasses that
involved a whole lot of steam and heat to a newer, quicker, cheaper
method that involved considerably lower temperatures and chemical
treatments.  Whereas the old method of rendering carcasses (whether from
scrapie-infected sheep or from bovines infected with some other form of
TSE) would have destroyed many though not all of any prions present, the
new method wouldn't have destroyed *any at all*, therefore allowing an
influx of more infectious material into the feed supply than previously
would have been possible.

Scrapie is fairly common among sheep; note that there has never been a
case of a human being contracting scrapie.  It is possible that the
greater prevalence of sheep in Great Britain (I think the ratio at the
time was something like 3 sheep to every cow, whereas here its 10 cows
to every sheep) and the consequently higher amount of possibly scrapie
infected material in British cattle feed may have caused an increased
risk of cross-species infection than we have here, which may explain why
British cows came down with BSE and ours did not, I don't know.  

At any rate, the way it works is that prions CAN jump species
boundaries, but its very hard for them to do so.  So while its possible
that BSE may be the result of the scrapie prion jumping the species
boundary it would make more sense for the original vector of infection
to be within the species; e.g., from bovine to bovine.  But then reality
doesn't always have to make sense.  Yes, its possible that BSE is the
result of scrapie becoming established in the bovine population.  I
don't know what evidence there currently is for or against that theory.

Whatever the original vector of infection, once the prion was in the
British cattle population the wide-spread practice of grinding up dead
cattle to feed back to the live ones (protein is protein is protein, is
the way the thinking went) gave the disease a vector for rapid
deployment. Every time an infected cow died and was added to the feed
that was that much more exposure to the prions (whatever their origin)
for the rest of the population.

Once this practice was stopped the rate of infections began to decline. 
Once the "backlog" of cases still in the incubation period had a chance
to be expressed, the disease went into rapid decline.  I don't know what
the current figures are for the disease in Britain, but last I checked
it was expected to be eradicated by 2003.

> I hadn't heard about being genetically susceptible either.
> You must have done an awful lot of research about this.

Well, I stumbled across a BSE fear-mongering site that was so rife with
rumors and what had to be out and out lies that it got me pissed off and
I embarked on a spree of BSE research that hasn't totally stopped yet
(it has slowed to a bare trickle though).  One of the things these guys
(and I found bunches of similar sites) were saying was that you could
get BSE from chickens and from petting your cats.

There was so much speculation going on, and newspapers were reporting
all sorts of things as fact with no supporting evidence, it was really
hard to find the truth, especially since so much of it IS in
"scientificese".  3 and a half years as a biology major and 5 years
spent doing literature searches for MDs doing research really came in
handy.

Early on they had yet to establish a connection between vCJD and BSE; in
the last couple of years they have found sufficient evidence to make the
connection more than the sheer speculation it was for awhile.  That's
one case of a rumor that happened to turn out to be true.  However, it
was never as widespread as some of the rumor mongers made it out to be.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From castoriver@juno.com Thu Feb 03 18:51:31 2000
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To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 15:41:12 -0600
Subject: Re:soil tests, micronutrients
Message-ID: <20000203.154118.-191959.1.castoriver@juno.com>
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From: Ann ODonnell <castoriver@juno.com>


	I recently had my soil tested through extension and had very low levels
of S. (~5ppm). My pH is also low: 5.5. Can I just spread Sulfur dust on
the surface? Will this be toxic to good microbes? Affect the pH?
	Also had astronomical levels of Mn. (~50ppm) Can anybody explain this?
Is there anything I can do about it?

From flowers@rt66.com Thu Feb 03 19:17:36 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: Help with Greenhouse


we are sold on mycostop... a wonderful beneficial fungi (streptomycetes )
that grows within the root matrix and excludes harmful fungi  

never lost a seedling after mycostop treatment


and we do 10-20 k per year ..treat  either  at seeding stage  or a drench
...only caveat is that plants requiring rhizobium like lathyrus must be
first treated with rhizobium then after a few days to a week  with mycostop 

martin 


>Martin:
>
>For damping off, try using chamomile tea - 1 tsp. for cup of water.
>Steep for 10 min., cool and pour.
>
>It saved over 300 seedlings of mine last winter.  It's cheap, it works,
>and it's completely non-toxic!
>
>Robert.
>
>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: flowers@rt66.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>
>
>
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow

5059898337 office
5057578337 farm april/november
5059203421 cell



From HMSTDFRMS@aol.com Thu Feb 03 20:34:35 2000
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Subject: Re:  Re: asparagus
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I'm thinking of covering the rows of asparagus with

wire hoop tunnels, then pasturing poultry in the area.

Please comment on this notion. :-)

We have had WONDERFUL results rotating  our pastured turkeys in the 3/4 acre 
asparagus bed. We wait until after the harvest, and the ferns are well 
established for the season. Then we used electrified poultry netting that 
could be moved through the bed as necessary. The turkeys broke only a few 
ferns, and did not eat them. They concentrated on the weeds between the rows, 
and did a great job! In previous years, we paid a couple of kids to come in 
and weed the bed, now the turkeys are my weeders. A farm visitor asked me if 
I felt a bit like a cannibal when we eat the employees! :))
Linda 
Homestead Farms

From dorigreen00@hotmail.com Thu Feb 03 21:56:45 2000
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From: "Dori Green" <dorigreen00@hotmail.com>
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Fading Into Lurk Mode...
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 21:57:02 EST
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Everything is fine here but I'm going to be silent for a few days -- "Buffy 
the Slayer" surprised me today with a beautiful perfect huge doeling, full 
term and at least a month earlier than I had expected her.  Buffy is a 
stocky little steer-type Experimental (Alpine-Nubian-Spanish mixed breed) 
doe not a year old yet, that baby had to have been folded over double in 
there.  Daddy "Stinky Scotty" is smirking.

Buffy's mother "Not the Momma" is wider than she is tall, and has no tail 
ligaments tonight.  There could be triplets in the barn by morning!

As others who include livestock in their CSA and market farms know, the 
first couple of weeks of human socialization with a new animal can make the 
difference between success with visitors and an animal that's always going 
to be stressed when the crowds of kids arrive.

So that's what I'll be doing, playing with "Ash Grove's Imbolc" rather than 
replying to any posts -- for at least a week or two.  That's okay -- mom and 
baby are doing great and I'm completely in love.

See y'all later!

Dori Green
Ash Grove Community Farm
Corning, NY

http://www.ic.org/agrove

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From marc@aculink.net Thu Feb 03 22:32:35 2000
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References: <LYR99061-35312-2000.02.02-07.56.14--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99136-35372-2000.02.02-11.01.18--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99061-35556-2000.02.02-22.23.06--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Sojourner wrote:
> 
> Marc & Marcy wrote:
> >
> > Here we import sawdust to mulch our slaughter discards
..snip..

> I've heard of doing this.  Have you had any problems with animals or
> pets digging into the piles, or have you taken precautions to prevent
> that?


no problems, no precautions

Marc

From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Thu Feb 03 22:44:03 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: Re: soil tests, micronutrients
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 21:44:15 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
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On Thu, 3 Feb 2000 15:41:12 -0600, Ann ODonnell <castoriver@juno.com>
wrote:

>	I recently had my soil tested through extension and had very low levels
>of S. (~5ppm). My pH is also low: 5.5. Can I just spread Sulfur dust on
>the surface? 

Yes.

>Will this be toxic to good microbes? 

No.

>Affect the pH?

Yes.

>	Also had astronomical levels of Mn. (~50ppm) Can anybody explain this?
>Is there anything I can do about it?

Apply compost and rock powders: rock or colloidal
phosphate, rock dusts or pond files (rock silt) from
quarries and lots of compost. Plant cover crops that 
use alot of or hyperaccumulate Mn (magnesium?).
The high levels of magnesium may be the result of 
to frequest/to heavy application of dolomitic limestone
which, compared to other forms of agricultural 
limestone is high in magnesium.  

Double check this info for yourself to be sure.
A good websearch may give you good basic information
on ag micronutrients, possibly info on dealing with too much Mn
in your soil.
Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
metalab.unc.edu/market-farming Market Farming
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu



From llami@teleport.com Thu Feb 03 22:46:23 2000
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Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 19:41:54 -0800
Subject: Re: Orchards and fruit trees
From: Lee Lawton <llami@teleport.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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> I was wondering if anyone on the list is currently operating an orchard,
> whether as your main crop or "on the side".

Tree fruit and berries are a pretty big deal here in Oregon. Apples are a
little hard to sell, since there are so many, and so many different
varieties, at the market, but I sell organic apples, which are uncommon
here, although lots of folks just want the variety they like, regardless of
whether organic or not.

Berries disappear within two hours of the market opening it seems, no matter
how many vendors have them. I sell organic raspberries for $3.00/pint and
up. Even blackberries, which are considered to be an invasive weed here,
sell for $1.50 a pint. This is probably due to the fact that permanent
scarring occurs after only a couple of trips to the blackberry vines!

I've done well with persimmons, both native and Japanese, Asian pears,
Italian plums, hardy kiwi, raspberries, blackberries, Seckel pears, figs,
and hazelnuts. Unusual offerings in this line do well at our farmer's
market. I'm adding to my orchard this year--all in the unusual and rare
line.

Lee Lawton
Over the Rainbow Farm
Junction City, Oregon


From soberle@bwn.net Thu Feb 03 22:48:26 2000
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Adding sulpher will reduce the pH further. Soils are extremely complex; you need to get
recomendations from the county/state ag school or the people who gave you the results.
most places will do both; you just need to ask.

Ann ODonnell wrote:

>         I recently had my soil tested through extension and had very low levels
> of S. (~5ppm). My pH is also low: 5.5. Can I just spread Sulfur dust on
> the surface? Will this be toxic to good microbes? Affect the pH?
>         Also had astronomical levels of Mn. (~50ppm) Can anybody explain this?
> Is there anything I can do about it?
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: soberle@bwn.net
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')

--
***********************
Sue Oberle
Oberle Botanical
Fort Collins, Colorado
email: soberle@bwn.net
voice: (970)493-5672
fax:   (970)493-3358
***********************



From marc@aculink.net Thu Feb 03 23:25:42 2000
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..snip..

> I'm still hesitant to use these products, but your information has
> put me more at ease. I guess when we don't know enough, it's easier to be
> overanxious.

I suggest you are being cautious and responsible to your
customers. No communicable disease expert has appeared in
this newsgroup to the best of my knowledge so it's kinda
like lay people discussing nuclear reactors or quantum
mechanics.

While some claim that prions are not to be feared I think
this conclusion is best reached by qualified disease control
people as the disease is devastating, not uncommon and far
and beyond more prevalent than "meteorites". See:

http://www-micro.msb.le.ac.uk/335/Prions.html

for some infection and death rate statistics in humans. You
will be surprised at the prevalence of prion related disease
in humans.

> The only part I'm confused on is the cross-species thing. I've
> heard that BSE originated as Scrapie in sheep--are they just two versions of
> the same thing?

See the following web sites for various names, details about
interspecies transfer and other stuff about prions. Beware
of several quack sites that are present in the Yahoo list.

http://www.medical-devices.gov.uk/tse-lit.htm (gives a lot
of the different names and 
varieties in the intro)

http://www.rit.edu/~sbib350/posters/prions.htm  (gives an
explanation with color pic's)

http://ink.yahoo.com/bin/query?p=Stanley+Prusiner+prions&z=1&hc=0&hs=0
(about the guy who figured out prions and lots of info about
them)

> I hadn't heard about being genetically susceptible either.
Genetic susceptibility exists but the same disease shows up
in people who have NO family history.

..snip..

I repost the following post from another news group as it
was well researched, is quite relevant to your concerns
regarding market gardening and has an extensive reference
list for those who want to do more study:

Marc
______________

From:   mmiller@pcsia.com
                                                                                                    
1/25/00 10:35 PM

Subject: Re: Van Milligen's spent layers for fish feed
     To: aquaponics@townsqr.com

The reason for my question is that when I posted the email
at the bottom of
this post to another list, I got a thougthful response from
somebody in AR
who mentioned that there thought the eagles eating dead
chicken thrown out
of the poultry houses was the source for this problem with
their eagles.  

I'm sorry I did not save the reply,  - Actually, I was lucky
to find my
post :>)  At the very bottom of this post is another related
post on this
subject.

This is another one of those areas where we don't have the
answers but
should be on the lookout.  Mike Miller

At 18:32 25-01-00 EST, you wrote:
>Mike,
>
>I don't have a ration description for the laying hens.  I know that they are 
>fed corn and soybean meal.  I would think that it is a standard laying 
>ration.  There are 25,000,000 layers in Iowa and we will process more than 
>half of them when their laying life is over.
>
>Poultry in one form or another is a pretty standard ingredient in pet food 
>and fish feed.  Whether it is whole poultry or poultry byproducts it is a 
>nutritious and safe feed ingredient.  snip

Sometime back, the local PBS station had to fill some time
from some
commerical length programs being aired.  Instead of running
ads for
underwriters or upcoming programs, they ran a short film
from Arkansas
about the Bald Eagle die offs occuring there.  Bald Eagles
are dying in
several west central lakes.  No virus or bacterial cause was
found in the
otherwise healthy birds.  Only the brains were abnormal
(white spots on the
slide, I think) and the eagles before dying were very
uncoordinated and
staggered around.  Coots, also exhibit this same disease, so
the program,
suggested the Bald Eagles might be picking up the "disease"
from eating them.

I thought, "the dying eagles stagger just like the cows in
Britian, they
are no doubt eating dead diseased animals with similar
symptons and no
known causative agent can be found : BINGO, there just might
be a prion
disease for birds too " and moved on until NOVA reaired "The
Brain Eater"
show which I had missed first time around.  In the NOVA
program, they were
looking at US cattle for a native version of BSE to little
avail.

I don't know anything much about this area as I am an
engineer by training
but the similarities are obvious even to the novice.  Since
the Arkansa
program ended with the mystery unsolved, I ask those of you
on the list who
are experienced in this field, could a prion type disease
explain the die
offs of Bald Eagles in Arkansas?
 
Another related post 

Mike wrote:

: Also,if deer are being added to the rendering plant mix
and the conjecture
: in the Boston Globe article turn out to be true that the
TSE in deer has
: jumped to humans like the BSE did from the cattle in
Britian, then could
: our poultry and swine industries ???which apparently still
allow
: potentially infected meat byproducts in their feeds???  be
the next
: carries of a TSE to humans?

I raise the question in this article that Prions have a long
incubation
period.  Cattle and sheep have a longer life span than
poultry.  How can we
be sure they are not carriers - the answer is we cannot.  In
my opinion BSE
is only one of the potential risks that we simply know too
little about.
The use of casualty animals that have been treated has to
also be a concern.
An expert in another country has told me that the rendering
industry is very
poorly regulated and he is most concerned.  Common sense
tells me that we
should simply avoid these things.  Consumers should have the
right to know
what the animals were fed when buying their meat.  We owe it
to the animals
we are raising to ensure they are in optimum health and fed
the best rations
that we can come up with.

As you will see from the focus of this article, I am
involved in the Ratite
Industry - but the principals are the same for all species. 
I had one US
nutritionist tell me that I should not be speaking out on
these products as
they have enabled the mass public to be able to afford meat
on a regular
basis.   That may have been true when the practice first
started 40 or 50
years ago.  Soymeal as a high quality protein source was not
readily
available and the APPs were sourced from healthy animals at
slaughter
plants.

In all these discussions it must never be overlooked that
the situation has
arisen from consumer pressure to achieve their food as
cheaply as possible.
==================================
ANIMAL BY-PRODUCTS IN RATITE DIETS

There have been many writings recently by Ratite feed
companies, their
employees and nutritionists, about the use of Animal
By-Products in
Ratite feeds - both pro and con.  Most of these articles
make reference
to many topics that are of great concern to me in our
efforts to achieve
a sustainable market for our meat products.

Ostrich Meat`s greatest selling point is its health benefits
as a red
meat. To feed them animal protein products from any source,
in the light
of current evidence, does not in my opinion allow the
industry to call
it a healthy red meat. I will return to this issue later.

Reference was made to the reasons being given for inclusion
of' "carcass
meal" was as a result of research done in South Africa. As
an Ostrich
Farmer in South Africa maybe this is an opportunity to
provide a greater
understanding on the industry here.

Until 1993 the marketing of all ostrich products could only
go through
one channel. Ostrich fanning had been conducted in an
atmosphere of not
wishing too many  ostriches to survive in fear of flooding
the market.
Therefore maximum production was not a pre-requisite to
formulating
rations. Many producers outside South Africa are not aware
that hide and
feathers where the primary products and the meat was sold as
a
by-product to the meat processing industry.  It was not
considered of
good enough quality to be sold fresh. That is why we still
do not have a
developed ostrich meat market here in South Africa. For this
reason
South Africa is NOT the ideal pattern to follow when
developing feed
rations for high quality Ostrich meat, maximum production
from breeder
birds, or maximum chick survivability.

To satisfy the hide and feather market a 14mth slaughter age
was
considered the ideal. With meat quality and productivity NOT
a
consideration. With deregulation came a number of new
entrants to
Ostrich Farming in South Africa, these farmers have been
looking to the
work done OUTSIDE South Africa as they were not satisfied
with the feed
performance and information available from within South
Africa.  It
surprises me greatly that some US feed companies are trying
to follow
South African recommendations.

At the First International Ostrich Meat Congress held at
Oudtshoorn 12
months ago a clear message was sent to the industry.  That
message - if
we were to sell our meat we MUST ensure the quality is
improved,  that
the meat contains no animal by-products, no growth
stimulants, no
routine use of antibiotics and all other "nasties" as
perceived by the
consumer - OUR CUSTOMERS.

Following that meeting a number of our feed manufacturers
here in South
Africa have listened to the message and now ensure that
their feeds are
free of such products. Sadly not all yet.

Reference was made to the misconception that the animal
by-products
impart an off-taste to the meat. This is NO misconception! 
The comment
has been made to me by a South African consumer on how he
had recently
eaten Ostrich Meat and could taste the Fish Meal in the
meat. He did not
like it. Have you ever been in a cold store where carcasses
from animals
fed Fish Meal are hanging?  It is more like walking into a
fish store.

In other livestock, feeding onions and garlic will flavour
the meat and
odour with onion and garlic. Alfalfa and Corn are neutral
and do not
have strong flavours, but the total rations still needs to
be a balanced
ration or odd flavours can result. Too much IRON in the diet
from other
feedstuffs and minerals will cause Ostrich meat to taste
somewhat like
liver. Liver is high in iron and that is why it has its
distinct
flavour.

Meat quality - meat with off tastes, inconsistent texture,
odd colour
etc. - was discussed at our most recent monthly South
African Ostrich
industry meeting,  it remains a problem to the development
of our
industry.  A pre-requisite to good quality meat in any
species is fast
growth rates. The South African formulations were geared to
obtaining
210 lbs at 12-14mths. These can be reached by 7mths with a
well
formulated feed and in time, improved genetics combined with
well
formulated feed will produce faster gains and larger birds.
It is
interesting to note the improvements made in the last 7
years by Blue
Mountain Feeds Farmers - both in weight gains and overall
production,
compared to the little change in 150 years of South African
farming.

Whether or not animal by-products are legally allowed in the
feed, we as
farmers have a responsibility and obligation NOT to use them
in any of
our Ostrich livestock rations, including Breeders, as they
will go to
slaughter someday and be turned into meat for our consumer. 
In the
light of the evidence about the health risks of Animal
By-products in
animal feeds, we cannot continue to use them.  Here a few
examples why :

"The critical experiment came when Marsh inoculated scrapie
infected
sheep brain into US cattle. [63]  If you do this in England
the cows go
mad, twitching [16] and kicking into a rabid frenzy. [12] 
But in
America, cows instead stagger to their deaths like downer
cows do [65],
supporting the notion that a form of BSE is already here in
the United
States."

"BSE has been able to infect and (therefore) kill cats,
antelopes, and
even ostriches from presumably eating infected protein.[l]
Experimentally, one can give BSE to monkeys [56],  pigs,
mice, sheep,
goats [l], and chimpanzees. [8]  There is no reason to
believe that BSE
will not similarly infect humans. [8]  So far, BSE has
proven more
infectious than most other transmissible spongiform
encephalopathies.
[39]  In fact 6 out of 7 attempts to transfer the disease to
different
mammalian species have been successful. [39]  That does not
bode well
for the human race."

"Spongiform encephalopathies are invariably fatal [29]
neurodegenerative
[17] diseases. There is no treatment [55] nor cure. [18] 
The novel [3]
infectious agents evoke no immune response [50] and
consequently slowly
accumulate [14] for an incubation period of up to 30 years.
[60]  You
can't detect them [28],  isolate them [35], nor purify them.
[13]  In
fact, only an autopsy can tell if you ever even had them.
[45]  They
aren't viruses and they aren't bacteria. [66]  The consensus
is that
they are prions, or infectious proteins. [60]  Without
detectable DNA
nor RNA [41], not only does no one know how they replicate, 
but the
whole concept challenges the basic tenets of biology. [45]"

Last year the Nobel Prize in Medicine or Physiology was
awarded to
Stanley B. Prusiner for his pioneering discovery of an
entirely new
genre of disease-causing agents and the elucidation of the
underlying
principles of their mode of action. The infectious particles
that
Prusiner discovered, which he named prions (PREE-ons). are
made of
protein and do not contain any genes or genetic material --
a detail
that distinguishes them from all other kinds of infectious
agents such
as viruses, bacteria, fungi and parasites. Prusiner began
his search for
prions in 1972, after one of his patients died from dementia
resulting
from Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, the human equivalent of "mad
cow"
disease.  He has linked the prions to other degenerative
brain disorders
including Altzheimers Disease and Kuru in humans and
Scrapies in sheep.

Prusiner has showed that prion diseases can sometimes be
passed from one
species to another. This work has taken 25 years. How can
anyone be
absolutely sure that recycling Animal By-Products back into
the food
chain is not building up further problems for the future
that are still
unidentified?  The answer is WE CANNOT.

Comment was made that bans on animal by-products only
referred to sheep
and cattle products. This as a result of the link between
transmission
from sheep to cattle. It must be remembered that cattle have
a very much
longer life than swine or poultry.  When reading the above
and the still
unknown incubation time of some of these prions, can we be
sure that
they are not present in swine and poultry, who do not live
long enough
for such diseases to develop?  The answer is WE CANNOT.

Before moving to South Africa I was a dairy farmer in the
UK. Never did
I question what I was feeding my cattle. I trusted my feed
company. When
the BSE outbreak hit - it was not the feed companies that
where blamed
by the press even though they where the ones formulating the
Animal
By-Products in the feed.  The blame was attributed to us
farmers for
being greedy and putting profit before our consumers health
and safety
by allowing and purchasing feed with Animal By-Products in
them.

It is clearly evident that the only way feed companies call
be forced to
change their practices is from pressure from the farmers.
The best
producing ostriches both here in South Africa and in the US
are reared
on feeds free of any animal protein products. The technology
to replace
Animal by-products in feeds has existed for over 30 years -
there is NO
GOOD REASON for feed companies to be using these products as
superior
bird productivity and meat quality can be better achieved
without them.

My ideas and opinions are not intended to do damage to any
livestock
industry whatsoever.  In fact, my concern is to help
livestock farmers
in general and ostrich ranchers in particular, by asking
each to take
the RESPONSIBILITY for what your livestock is fed to protect
YOUR
industry.  There is enough evidence about the feeding of
Animal
by-products to cause a health risk concern. It is the
opinion of many
that there are FAR TOO MANY DOUBTS regarding the safe use of
these
products. In the light of the evidence that is available
farmers and
nutritionists have a RESPONSIBILITY and OBLIGATION NOT to
use these
products in our animal feeds when the animal is used for
human
consumption.

References
I . J. of Nutritional Medicine (1992) 3: 149-151
2. Animal Health Insight (1992) Autumn: 1-7
3. Moscow Indiana Daily News (1993) December 22:1A,3A
4. Consumer Policy Institute Testimony before Joint Meeting
of FDA FAC
and VMAC (1993) May 6:5-6
5. J. of Agricultural Economics (1992)43(1):96-103
6. Nature (1993) 365:93
7. New Age Journal (1990) Nov/Dec:8-9
8. In These Times (1994) Jan 24:12-13
9. Biological Science 5th edition (1993) by Keeton and Gould
10. Medical Laboratory Sciences (1992) 49(3):216-7
11. Nursing Times (1993) 89(38): 19
12. Proceedings Amer. Assn. of Bovine Practitioners
Convention (1992)
24:19
13. Medical Laboratony Sciences (1992) 49(4):334-9
14. Ecologist (l991l) 21(3):117-122
15. Drovers Journa1 (1994) Jan:42
16. Discover(l991) Apr:69-74
17. Dev Biol Stand (1993) 80:15-23
18. Alternatives 18(3):9-10
19. Nature (l990) 345:280
20. Nature (l990) 343:196
21. In These Times (1993) May 31:12-15
22. Economist (1990) Feb 3:89-90
23. Veterinary Record (1990) Jun 30:632
24. Lancet (1990) 335:343
25. Veterinary Record (1990) Jun 23:626
26. Lancet (1990) May 26:1252
27. New Scientist (1992) Jun 13:9
28. British Medical Journal (1990) 300:412-3
29. British Medical Journal(1988) 296:1581-2
30. New Scientist (1993) Mar 20.5
31. Nature (1990) 345:648
32. Sub-acute Spongiform Encephalopathies, edited by R.
Brad1y
(1991):179-186
33. Lancet (1990) 336:1300-2
34. US News and World Report (1990) Jul 2:44
35. Scientific American (1990) May:34
36. Science (1990) 249:1492-3
37. Economist (1990) Jul 28:69
38. British Food Journal (1992) 94(9):23-6
39. British Medical Journal (1993) 95(8):22-34
40. Veterinary Record (1992) Jul 4:2
41. Economist (1991) Jun 22:92-3
42. Veterinary Record (1992) Feb 15:146
43. New Scientist (1990) Jun 9:32-4
44. Veterinary Record (1990) Nov 3:440-1
45. Lancet (1988) Sep 10:607-8
46. Bulletin of the World Health Organization (1992) 70(2):
183-190
47. Advances in Virus Research (1992) 41:257
48. Dev Biol Stand (1993) 80:157-170
49. Dev Biol Stand (1993) 80:111-8
50. Prion Diseases of Humans and Animals. edited by Bradley
B. et al.
(1992):285-299
51. Wall Street Journal (1992) Jun 29
52. Dev Biol Stand (1993) 80:119-121
53. New Scientist (1993) Oct 9:50-1
54. Sub-acute Spongiform Encephalopathies edited by R.
Brad1y
(1991):41-6
55. Nutrition and Health (1991) 7(3):117-134
56. Veterinary Record (1993) Apr 17:403-5
57. British Medical Journal(1992) 304:929-930
58. British Medical Journal (1992) 304:1509
59. Food Microbiology (1990) 7:253-279
60. Lancet (1993) 342:790-3
61. Sub-acute Spongiform Encephalopathies, edited by R.
Bradly(1991):195-202
62. Nature (1993) 365:386
63. Sub-acute Spongiform Encephalopathies, edited by R.
Bradly
(1991):272-274
64. Nature (1993) 365:98
65. Wisconsin State Journal (1993) Sep 26:1C
66. Capital Times (1993) Sep 11:6A
67. Mosby's Medical and Nursing Dictionary 2nd Edition
(1986)

From sojournr@missouri.org Fri Feb 04 01:12:57 2000
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Marc & Marcy wrote:
> 
> ..snip..
> 
> > I'm still hesitant to use these products, but your information has
> > put me more at ease. I guess when we don't know enough, it's easier to be
> > overanxious.

> While some claim that prions are not to be feared

No one claims that TSEs are not devastating or that the prions that
cause them are harmless.  Only that your chances of ever coming across
the BSE prion, and then actually contracting nvCJD, are extremely small,
especially outside the UK.

> I think
> this conclusion is best reached by qualified disease control
> people as the disease is devastating, not uncommon and far
> and beyond more prevalent than "meteorites". See:
> 
> http://www-micro.msb.le.ac.uk/335/Prions.html

I checked the current number of vCJD cases.  The grand total now stands
at 48, 46 of which are in Great Britain and exactly 2 of which are in
France.

I don't know what the population in Britain is, but 46 cases of vCJD in
15 years from the entire population of at least several millions is very
rare, and that in a country where the population had a much higher risk
of exposure to infected meat than anywhere else in the world.

Granted, in Britain it is probably more common than being struck by a
meteorite, but less common than being struck by lightning.  <VBG>

The incidence in the USA of nvCJD is exactly zero, and you can't get
much rarer than that.

> > I hadn't heard about being genetically susceptible either.
> Genetic susceptibility exists but the same disease shows up
> in people who have NO family history.

Same site, from http://www-micro.msb.le.ac.uk/335/BSE/SH.html (btw, keep
in mind this site is in the UK and most statistics quoted in it apply to
the UK and not to the US.  The following statistic is not specific to
just the UK, however, except where mention is specifically made of vCJD)

"Other risk factors include the PrP 129 polymorphism. For the Caucasian
population: 

     12%V/V 
     37% M/M 
     51%M/V 

The relative Sporadic CJD Risk for these genotypes is 11 : 4 : 1.
For growth hormone iatrogenic CJD it is 50% V/V, 31%M/M and 19% M/V.So
far 100% of NV-CJD patients have had a M/M genotype."

In 15 years, not one single case of vCJD (the TSE in humans now linked
to BSE in cattle) has been found in any human being that does not carry
this genetic marker.  Not one.

"Growth hormone iatrogenic CJD" refers to people whose CJD is traceable
to having received one or more injections of contaminated human growth
hormone; this infection vector is a much easier route for CJD to take
than it is for the BSE to vCJD pathway, which must first jump the
species barrier (cattle to human, however it may have first infected the
cattle).

'Nuff said, I'll leave it now.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

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All the traffic about certified kitchens and salsas and things has got
me to thinking - does anyone on the list make and sell wines?  I know
this requires a license, but does it also require the whole certified
kitchen thing as well?

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From sojournr@missouri.org Fri Feb 04 02:20:34 2000
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Leigh Hauter wrote:
> 
> Holly, nice comments on fruit trees.
> We're going to put in over 50 more apple trees in an area the goats have
> been clearing/killing for the past year (yes, I too believe anyone who
> grows vegetables for a living is crazy to keep such a dangerous animal
> around, but....) and are looking for a recommended nursery.  Suggestion?

Well, Bear Creek Nursery, which I had already sent for a catalog from,
was suggested.  Gurney's carries several of the more common
old-fashioned varieties (Prarie Spy, Cortland, Wolf River, several
others) for $12 or $13 for the 3' to 4' size.  Miller's carries quite a
few old fashioned varieties.  These all have web sites to order a
catalog:

http://www.gurneys.com/
http://www.millernurseries.com/
http://www.BearCreekNursery.com/

I got this suggestion on another list I'm on, haven't sent for the
catlog yet but I intend to:

> I deal exclusively with Lawson Nursery in Ballground, GA
> Jim and Bernice are great!  AND, they specialize in apples.
> Lawson's Nursery(Jim and Bernice Lawson)
> 2730 Yellow Creek Rd
> Ballground, GA 30107
> 770-893-2141
> 
> They ship to all parts of the country, too, so don't let that Southern
> address scare you!

And of course there's always Stark Brothers, high quality in my
experience but high prices too (in my opinion).

I've bought fruit trees in the past from Miller's and Stark, and plants
and seeds from Gurney's, never had any complaint about any of them.

> The always out of the office extention agent hasn't
> gotten back with his 2 cents.

LOL!  You've got one of them too, eh?

> What are your favorite cooking varieties?

Well, I don't know what the old-fashioned apples were that we had when I
was growing up, or what sort it was my grandmother had.  Over the past
20 years I've tended to buy whatever I could find in the grocery store
that resembled those apples as closely as possible (which wasn't very). 
SO I've tended to do most of my cooking with McIntosh, or Winesaps when
I could find them, which isn't very often in the last 10 years.  I
prefer Winesaps over McIntosh for sauce by far.  I'm lousy at pie crust
so I can't really say how either variety would bake up.  For jelly, its
crabapples all the way for me.  Apple jelly, compared to crabapple
jelly, has always struck me as being insipid.

I'd love to have Duchess.  Duchess, so I'm told, is one of the best pie
apples ever.  Lodi is supposed to be good for sauce and for pies.

I'll be getting 3 of the newer disease resistant varieties, Freedom,
Jonafree, and Carefree liberty, but I've got my hopes pinned on getting
a lot of older varieties, which are sometimes not very disease
resistant.  One way or another, I'll have apples.

>  We have about a dozen trees now.

What have you got planted right now?

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From sojournr@missouri.org Fri Feb 04 02:21:58 2000
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Lee Lawton wrote:
> 
> I'm adding to my orchard this year--all in the unusual and rare
> line.

May I ask what varieties you grow, and what you are adding?

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

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Subject: Re: Seeders
References: <LYR99061-35101-2000.02.01-14.07.14--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99136-35602-2000.02.03-00.31.25--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Of the people who had trouble using the Earthway seeder for carrots and
other small seeds, I was wondering if anyone had tried mixing the seed
with sand?  If it was sowing too thickly I was thinking that might help.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Fri Feb 04 07:08:19 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: My research...(was Re: Orchards and fruit trees)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 07:07:24 -0800
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Right now, I'm in the throes of acquiring catalogs, calling the "Fruit and
Vegetable Science" professor, and buying various publications.

I'm tired before I dig my first hole!

So, here's what I want:
.    about a half-dozen apple trees: 2 early, 2 mid, 2 late
.    a couple of pear trees
.    the goal is to supply our own home fruit needs and any spillover could
be sold thru the farmers markets where we will be anyway to sell our
cutflowers and veggies.

I will be planting other fruit - strawberries, blackberries, blueberries,
but not in the "orchard".

I spoke to my local (Cornell) fruit professor and he said the following:

.    organic doesn't mean no spray
.    no apple trees are immune to insects, although they may be immune to
disease
.    I, most likely, will not be able to get away with not spraying
.    pesticides with "natural" origins may not be less harmful than
their "synthetic/petroleum-based" counterparts


He offered the following cultivars as possibilities for me in central New
York, zone 5: Liberty, Williams Pride, GoldRush, Redfree, Jonafree,
Priscilla, and Enterprise.   He also said not to ignore the antique russets.

He also offered the following catalog choices:

Stark, Adams County, Wafler's, Bear Creek Nursery, St. Lawrence Nursery.

Two sprays to consider if I chose to go that way: Sevin and Imidan

I'm also ordering a couple of publications from Cornell, as well as the
NRAES (Northeast Regional Agricultural Extension Service).

The pub from Cornell is called The Home Fruit Planting.  That seems to be
the all around basic foundational info on the subject.  I also have a great
book "The Apple Grower: A Guid for the Organic Orchardist" by Michael
Phillips, published by Acres USA.

The author is decidedly on the organically grown side, but admits that the
intelligent use of a least-toxic pesticide makes all the difference between
having an edible crop and making apple sauce with insect parts.

He does talk about various traps - sticky and pheromone, and other no-spray
ways to manage pests, but depending on the insect stress in your particular
area, it may or may not allow for a "marketable" product.

Well, that's the extent of my knowledge about orchards.

I've decided to go for it anyway.  I'll probably use all the no-spray
techniques available.  If that works, GREAT!  If it doesn't I'll just simply
use the sprays that organic growers use.

Rose


From grandad@grandadsfarm.com Fri Feb 04 07:29:09 2000
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> Well, that's the extent of my knowledge about orchards.

	Horse radish grown around the base of fruit trees keeps root
borers away.
-- 
From mailto:grandad@grandadsfarm.com and 
the Home of Grandad's Farm Magazine 
in the beautiful suburbs of Columbia, Missouri
http://www.grandadsfarm.com/

From sojournr@missouri.org Fri Feb 04 08:08:19 2000
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Rose & Fred Lieberman wrote:
> 
> I've decided to go for it anyway.  I'll probably use all the no-spray
> techniques available.  If that works, GREAT!  If it doesn't I'll just simply
> use the sprays that organic growers use.

Try getting a copy of "The Organic Orchard" by Gene Logsdon.  He
discusses many strategies to reduce insect damage as well as describing
many of the other problems such as scab and cedar apple rust, their
underlying causes and the conditions that lead to them, and how to
create conditions that WON'T be conducive to the development of disease
and pest problems.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From sojournr@missouri.org Fri Feb 04 08:24:12 2000
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References: <LYR99136-35929-2000.02.04-07.08.19--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99136-35933-2000.02.04-08.08.19--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Sojourner wrote:
> 
> Rose & Fred Lieberman wrote:
> >
> > I've decided to go for it anyway.  I'll probably use all the no-spray
> > techniques available.  If that works, GREAT!  If it doesn't I'll just simply
> > use the sprays that organic growers use.
> 
> Try getting a copy of "The Organic Orchard" by Gene Logsdon.

Ooops, sorry there, the correct title is "Organic Orcharding".  The
books out of print but commonly available used or through interlibrary
loan (if your library doesn't happen to have its own copy).

A source for this and other used or out of print books is the Advanced
Book Exchange (ABE), a consortium of thousands of small used booksellers
from across the country

http://www.abebooks.com

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: food bank donations
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I was interested in hearing from others who regularly donate vegetables
to a food bank how you incorportate that into your plans.  I want to do
this on a larger scale but need help in the actual organizing of it.  At
this point I do not hire outside help in harvesting.  Do you recruit
volunteers to help with the harvesting?  How do you handle inexperienced
volunteers in the garden?  Any insight from those of you who have been
there?  My husband is in favor of this idea but invisions people
trampling thru the garden.  Thanks for your help.
Sue Steiner
Sweetgrass Farm
Wadsworth, Oh.


From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Fri Feb 04 09:11:47 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: My research...(was Re: Orchards and fruit trees)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:11:05 -0800
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Holly, I can't even tell you how long I've tried to get this out-of-print
book "Organic Orcharding."

I'll try some other lists and see if anyone has a copy they'd like to sell
me.

You know, I wonder if I contacted the author?

Rose


From pike@always-online.com Fri Feb 04 09:23:29 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 9:23:23
Subject: organic & conventional farming compatibility
To: market-farming
From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>


Please bear with me here. I'm away from my home computer for a few days & 
am using an antique! (I hope this goes through okay.)  I read yesterday's 
posts from the web.  If you're thinking of unsubscribing-try this-it's an 
easy, no-stress way to keep up minus the clogged mailbox.

Now on to the topic.  (Lawrence, walk away-I'm bringing up the
 "o" word ; ).) In reading through the posts last night, I realized alot 
(most :) of the discussions have surrounded organic farming.  This is a  
volatile issue for some, but please here me out.  I don't know how many 
subscribers we have who are conventional/traditional/sustainable/etc 
farmers who not organic. I believe the intent of this list was to inspire 
dialog for the encouragement & education of everyone.  So, please, (Marcie, 
I'm sure you'll let me know if I'm out of line here ; ).)if you have 
something to discuss that's outside the organic threads, please don't 
hesitate to post.  This list is for you,too.  I'm not trying to stir up 
trouble, just thoughtful, meaningful, polite dialogue. As an adult, I learn 
from many viewpoints. I may not always agree with them, but they expose my 
beliefs so that I must re-examine them to discover if in fact they are the 
truth I seek.  There's room for other viewpoints on this list.  I, for one, 
am ready to listen.

From one humble, not-as-frequent poster (I'm learning!),

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC

From pike@always-online.com Fri Feb 04 09:46:55 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 9:46:49
Subject: Re: food bank donations
To: market-farming
From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>


Sue, my area does not have a food bank.  What I do, is take my unsold 
produce & flowers to a low-income apartment complex for the elderly. This 
began quite by accident when one market day when I just couldn't bring 
myself to throw this gorgeous, alive, nourishing food into my compost.  I 
swung into the parking lot, opened my trunk & began taking my coolers to 
the club room.  Residents wandered over to see what was going on.  Oh how I 
wish I'd had a video camera/tape recorder of that day.  Before my very 
eyes, these precious people returned to their youth, to former gardens & 
farms.  They  became quite animated with stories & I ended up staying for 3 
hours!!  They can't help me harvest, and some can't even eat what I bring.  
But it has been such a great experience, that if I ever stop market 
farming, I will continue to share my garden with them.

I went back a couple of weeks ago, just to check up on everyone, & several 
people gathered around to express concern over city plans to clean-up 
(read, DESTROY) a small section of wetlands between their apartments & the 
river.  They took me over & showed me where the rabbit lived.  Pointed out 
the squirrels, the possum, the old bird nests.  The turtles, the ducks, and 
a snake! Then they showed me their compost pile!!!  They had taken their 
leftovers & started a compost--for me.  I cried.  What goes around, comes 
around, and we'll never know when it will encompass us.

Have a great day everyone!!

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC

From CLABEOTS@baraboo.k12.wi.us Fri Feb 04 09:47:42 2000
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From: "Chris Labeots" <CLABEOTS@baraboo.k12.wi.us>
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Subject:  Farmers Market Display ideas
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I'm always looking to improve my customer appeal by improving my display. =
I arrange veggies in alternating colors,have 3 levels and price signs on =
each vaggie. I have tried recipes, and found that the smaller/shorter the =
recipe the more chance it will be used. All of these things have improved =
my draw.=20

This summer I'm thinking of putting vitamin content lists on each veg =
price card.
to appeal to those "logical" / health buyers. Anyone already doing this? =
Where can I find the vitamin contents listed on the web?

Also, if you know of any good picture sites of Farmers Market Displays , =
please let us all know.


From sojournr@missouri.org Fri Feb 04 09:50:36 2000
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: My research...(was Re: Orchards and fruit trees)
References: <LYR99136-35942-2000.02.04-09.11.47--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Rose & Fred Lieberman wrote:
> 
> Holly, I can't even tell you how long I've tried to get this
> out-of-print book "Organic Orcharding."

Well, drat nabbit, I just went and checked and sure enough there's no
copies of this on ABE right now.  It does show up with some regularity
though - or at least it did when I was looking for my copy.  Try putting
it on a "want list" on ABE.  They do daily searches on their database
from your want list and will e-mail you when a match shows up.

I've got two of his books courtesy of friends, Practical Skills and
Money Saving Secrets.  The one I still can't find is "The Last Days of a
Farmer".  I've been trying to get a copy of that for 4 years and have
never seen a copy at any price.

> You know, I wonder if I contacted the author?

LOL!  The author has been threatened with mayhem by his family if he
were to even THINK of giving up one of the few copies he has left of any
of his out of print books!

Even Gene Logsdon can't get any more copies of Gene Logsdon's out of
print titles.  You should try getting a copy of "Small Scale Grain
Raising".  That one's so hard to find that I usually see it offered for
$75 to $100, if at all.

Oh geez, I just went and looked and there's a copy of "Small Scale Grain
Raising" on Bibliofind for $125.  Yikes!

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us Fri Feb 04 10:01:33 2000
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From: "Wiediger, Alison" <awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us>
To: 'market farming' <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: RE: My research...(was Re: Orchards and fruit trees)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 08:47:53 -0600 
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You might want to check with your local library's used books sale room.  Our
library runs a sale once a year, but in larger cities, they may run one more
often.  In Lexington, KY, the room is open on regular days.  I actually
found "Small Scale Grain Raising" this past fall at the Lexington book store
, excellent condition(maybe not even ever read, with dust cover), for $15.00
(most books are .50 to 1.50).  I picked it up immediately - had wanted it
for years.  Just another possible source for those older farming books - we
have a couple of bookshelves that are filled with these finds.  We also have
a lot of duplicates from the 1970's - a great time for practical farming
books.  When we married 4 years ago, and merged our libraries, we had many
of the same titles(apparently we'd been on parallel courses for over 20
years - shame we didn't meet sooner).  If anyone is interested, email me and
we'll check to see exactly what. 

Alison Wiediger
Au Naturel Farm
Smiths Grove,KY
awiediger@hart.k12.ky.us

> ----------
> From: 	Sojourner[SMTP:sojournr@missouri.org]
> 
> Even Gene Logsdon can't get any more copies of Gene Logsdon's out of
> print titles.  You should try getting a copy of "Small Scale Grain
> Raising".  That one's so hard to find that I usually see it offered for
> $75 to $100, if at all.
> 
> Oh geez, I just went and looked and there's a copy of "Small Scale Grain
> Raising" on Bibliofind for $125.  Yikes!
> 
> -- 
> Holly ;-D
> Contrary Peasant
> sojournr@missouri.org
> 
> 
> 

From kampy@netins.net Fri Feb 04 10:02:02 2000
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Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 09:01:22 -0600
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: Marie Kamphefner <kampy@netins.net>
Subject: Vitamin & Mineral List
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In the February, 2000, issure of Acres USA, there is a a vitamin & mineral
list on page 36.    The list appears courtesy of The Soil Sentinel.

Marie in Missouri


From awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us Fri Feb 04 10:14:02 2000
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Subject: RE: Vitamin & Mineral List
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:00:11 -0600 
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	We noticed that this week, and had already decided to photo-copy and
laminate it to have on our table 
	at the farmers' market.  Last year, we also worked up an information
sheet on the herbs we were selling 
	in 4" pots that customers could look at to decide what herbs to buy.
We think it boosted sales for the 
	customers not to have to ASK us about the herbs and how to use them
- had a disclaimer for the
	medicinal ones.

	Alison Wiediger
	Smiths Grove, KY
> ----------
> From: 	Marie Kamphefner[SMTP:kampy@netins.net]
> In the February, 2000, issure of Acres USA, there is a a vitamin & mineral
> list on page 36.    The list appears courtesy of The Soil Sentinel.
> 
> Marie in Missouri
> 
> 
> ---
> 

From pike@always-online.com Fri Feb 04 10:32:32 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:32:29
Subject: Re:  Farmers Market Display ideas
To: market-farming
From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>


Chris, I did this last year & found it was just a waste of time.  Not one 
customer commented or discussed vit. cont.  On the other side of that 
table, as a health conscious produce buyer(in the winter at least), I'm not 
particularly concerned with this either.  JMHO.

For farmer's market displays, I found in doing my research (I visited many 
fm for 2 years!) & in doing my own booth, anything that I could do opposite 
of what was the stand norm really upped my booth's impact. Fms all have 
their own personality, so these changes will vary from stand to stand.  At 
our stand, no one used table cloths.  So I used bright blue & white checked 
fabric on my tables-noticeable as soon as you stepped in the door.  
Everyone displayed their flowers on the floor.  I moved mine to the table.  
Everyone used the same regulation required tables.  I brought in an antique 
goat cart, & children's wagons.  No one displayed prices.  I did.  (This is 
the single most stupid mistake any business person can make, whether you 
sell produce or diamonds!  Customers deserve better than this common 
practice at fms.   For every customer who asks how much, you've lost 5.)  
Produce was most commonly displayed in the cardboxes they came in 
(resellers--ugh!!!), I used wicker flats.  Vendors could not/would not 
change hundred dollar bills.  I did-and I always got the first customers of 
the day.  Why?  Because other vendors came to me for change first thing in 
the morning.  When those first customers walked through the doors, my booth 
appeared crowded with customers, which attracted more.  Like flies to honey 
 (Ever visit a town & look for a good restaurant??  The best ones are the 
ones with all the cars. Locals know where the good stuff is!)

It's a game.  Psycological warfare for those almighty dollars.  I plan to 
stay in business!

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC  

From sojournr@missouri.org Fri Feb 04 10:33:46 2000
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Chris Labeots wrote:
> 
> Where can I find the vitamin contents listed on the web?

The USDA Nutrient Data Library:

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/cgi-bin/nut_search.pl

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From sojournr@missouri.org Fri Feb 04 10:44:29 2000
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Elizabeth Pike wrote:
> 
> Chris, I did this last year & found it was just a waste of time.  Not one
> customer commented or discussed vit. cont.  On the other side of that
> table, as a health conscious produce buyer(in the winter at least), I'm not
> particularly concerned with this either.  JMHO.

I'm not experienced as a seller, but even so I'd go ahead and make up
some cards or a display about nutrition or vitamin content just as a
philisophical statement.

I'll tell you what often influenced me to buy at a farmer's market,
though - RECIPE CARDS.  Or flyers with recipes.  Give me some recipes
and I'll buy just about anything.

Except brocolli.  Or cauliflower.  Or asparagus . . .

Another thing that influenced my buying habits was, as Liz mentioned,
having prices listed.  Not listed = no sale, for me.  I was not
interested in standing there waiting to get someone's attention and then
have to ask them for the prices for half the stuff on their table.

And samples.  Samples are always good if you can do them and not get
busted in the chops for some health regulation.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From guldann@ix.netcom.com Fri Feb 04 11:03:44 2000
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References: <LYR98960-35950-2000.02.04-09.46.54--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: food bank donations
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>Liz wrote below, Liz and list,  One of my members is a long time church
friend, her retired husband has taken on a lot of charitable work I have
helped him in a small way once and awhile.  I was in height of season and
when Martha said could I spare some tomatoes for her hubby. I said yes gave
her a dozen or so (her requested amount) and forgot all about it.  A couple
weeks later at church she says oh hubby's meals on wheels people have not
stopped talking about the tomatoes.  Some said they hadn't had a garden
tomato in years.  This was late in the season so no more got sent.  But this
year I am going to make sure they tomatoes on a reg. basis.
My husband teaches at a private catholic school and one of his students for
community service traded his labor for vegetables.  The vegetables he
delivered to a soup kitchen.  The first delivery of tomatoes was in prime
time so he brought about 80 lbs  he said the workers gushed as he stack them
on a table. I like the low income elderly complex thing though.  Beth

> I went back a couple of weeks ago, just to check up on everyone, & several
> people gathered around to express concern over city plans to clean-up
> (read, DESTROY) a small section of wetlands between their apartments & the
> river.  They took me over & showed me where the rabbit lived.  Pointed out
> the squirrels, the possum, the old bird nests.  The turtles, the ducks,
and
> a snake! Then they showed me their compost pile!!!  They had taken their
> leftovers & started a compost--for me.  I cried.  What goes around, comes
> around, and we'll never know when it will encompass us.



From CAVM@aol.com Fri Feb 04 11:05:07 2000
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My sister-in-law grows sweet corn on the large commercial farm she has with 
her husband.  The sweet corn is a very small percentage of the total acreage 
and we live in a rural area of Western Kentucky.  Normally you would expect 
that the farmers' market would not be very exciting since every few houses on 
nearly every country road has something for sale in season.

To overcome this my sister-in-law harvests her sweet corn and sells it at the 
elderly housing complexes.  These fine folks don't get out like they used to 
but a great many of them are from farm backgrounds or at least were gardeners 
once.  They snap up all of her sweet corn at prices that they find reasonable 
and she finds rewarding.

Regards,

Cornelius A. Van Milligen
Kentucky Enrichment Inc.

From guldann@ix.netcom.com Fri Feb 04 11:15:47 2000
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From: "Hook Family" <guldann@ix.netcom.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98960-35964-2000.02.04-10.32.31--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Farmers Market Display ideas
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 11:19:06 -0800
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I think this is very interesting.  I spent an hour or more surfing the net
yesterday, for the psychology of marketing. My loose finding are, make every
customer glad that THEY (not any generic customer, by them) came to your
stand make a genuine acknowlegement of their presence, make them see the
benefit that your product will be for them, not I the farmer grow great
veggies but you the customer will be better if you buy this.  All the stuff
Liz wrote about making your stand look pretty and neat.  Prices are a must.
All info is good.  Instead of a detailed vit content how about above carrots
say high in Vit. A, above tomatoes high in Vit C etc. not a detailed list of
every nutrient in them.
I read the next suggestion on the net I intend to try it in my farm stand
(when built).  It said to further portray freshness have workers were a
flower pinned (neatly) on shirt.  Oh yea and you/worker should be neat and
cleanly dressed.  Some stuff I've learned so far.

Marketing is our topic for the next week or so of the class I am taking I
find it so interesting.  Beth


From pike@always-online.com Fri Feb 04 11:20:53 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 11:20:49
Subject: Re: Farmers Market Display ideas
To: market-farming
From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>


As Holly said, RECIPES are the ticket!!  I did mine along the line of 
several cookbooks that came out last year-those 1,2,3, or only 5 
ingredients.  Most of these were basic recipes, but the simplicity got me a 
sale 90% of the time.

Samples-these are easy & allowable, at least in my state.  This is a tip 
from restaurant work & one that will get heads up from health depts:use 2 
display trays, bottom one filled with ice-if possible, or better yet, you 
can purchase trays that are impregnated with a gel.  You freeze the whole 
container then use it to display your samples without getting them sopping 
wet, plus the gel stays colder, longer, than ice.  These are commonly 
available at most restaurant supply stores.  Have a clear cover to protect 
from air borne germs & insects.  I sampled mostly salad veggies, with 
standard, straight from the grocery store dressing.  I didn't want to take 
a chance on making my own.  (Then everyone would ask that I sell my great 
tasting dressing!!  Paul Newman-look out!  Actually his brands were what I 
used.)  Fix up the display with greens on bottom, & serving sized veggies 
or whatever on top.  Keep dressing in the bottle with those tiny little 
sample cups for serving. Be generous with size.  Grab them by their eyes & 
nose, tickle their tummies & you'll have a customer for life!

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC   

From llami@teleport.com Fri Feb 04 11:30:10 2000
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Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 08:25:38 -0800
Subject: organic orcharding
From: Lee Lawton <llami@teleport.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <B4C03D82.130D%llami@teleport.com>
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A couple of titles which come to mind (and to hand) are:

The Apple Grower, A Guide for the Organic Orchardist by Michael Phillips,
Chelsea Green Publishing, 1998

Organic Fruit Tree Management by Linda Edwards, Certified Organic
Associations of British Columbia, 1998.

Lee Lawton
Over the Rainbow Farm
Junction City, Oregon 


From llami@teleport.com Fri Feb 04 11:54:33 2000
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Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 08:50:37 -0800
Subject: Re: Orchards and fruit trees
From: Lee Lawton <llami@teleport.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <B4C0435C.1312%llami@teleport.com>
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>> I'm adding to my orchard this year--all in the unusual and rare
>> line.
> 
> May I ask what varieties you grow, and what you are adding?

I have lots of apples. Liberty, Jonagold, Golden Delicious, Red Delicious,
King, Red Rome, Rome, Lodi, Summer Scarlet, King, Spigold, Northern Spry,
and others, some of which I'm removing because they will not grow well with
organic management. The orchard is about 20 years old, with a few more
recent additions. Because there are so many apple sellers in this area, I
won't add any more apples, although the red-fleshed varieties are tempting.
Well, I couldn't resist a crabapple, so I'm adding one of those.

I also have Italian plum, several varieties of Asian and European pears, and
hardy kiwi. raspberries, blackberries and filberts. I'm adding pie cherries,
and no other cherries, since there are lots of them around here, too, but
nobody else brings pie cherries. Mulberry I haven't seen around here, and
they grow well here. More pears, including those wonderful little Seckels.
Figs appropriate to the Willamette Valley. European plums--Early Laxton and
Golden Transparent. High bush cranberry.

Since we're short on workers and long on work, I have to be careful how much
picking I get myself into. Get too many berries and beans, and pretty soon
you have to get one of those miner's lights to wear on your head!

Lee Lawton
Over the Rainbow Farm
Junction City, Oregon


From llami@teleport.com Fri Feb 04 11:58:25 2000
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Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 08:54:26 -0800
Subject: Re: food bank donations
From: Lee Lawton <llami@teleport.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Message-ID: <B4C04442.1313%llami@teleport.com>
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Local gleaners come to our market, armed with their boxes, just before
closing time when the vendors are starting to pack up. If you have local
gleaners or food bank organizations, they might be delighted to come around
and take extras off your hands with little extra work for you, either at
your market or your farm.

I used to volunteer as a gleaner in another state, and I found the people
all had enormous respect for the place where they were picking. They were
all very careful.

Well, enough of this--gotta go to work!

Lee Lawton
Over the Rainbow Farm
Junction City, Oregon


From mjb@premier1.net Fri Feb 04 12:11:28 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98946-35979-2000.02.04-11.20.53--mjb#premier1.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Farmers Market Display ideas/sampling/signs
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----- Original Message -----
From: Elizabeth Pike <pike@always-online.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: Farmers Market Display ideas


I
> used.)  Fix up the display with greens on bottom, & serving sized veggies
> or whatever on top.  Keep dressing in the bottle with those tiny little
> sample cups for serving. Be generous with size.  Grab them by their eyes &
> nose, tickle their tummies & you'll have a customer for life!
>

I'm sure health regulations vary county to county or state to state.  One
item absolutely demanded by health authorities in our state is a hand
washing station set up in the booth somewhere.  This doesn't need to be
complex, a simple large water jug (although in our state it has to be
insulated) with a free flowing spout, a drain bucket, soap and paper towels.
Something to clean the knive with as well, and a food handler's card.  Why
we can't just wash our hands after visiting the restroom and call it good is
beyond me.  The health department insists that we wash our hands after we
get back to the booth and I go along with it because it isn't too
unreasonable.  If we don't cut the samples up, none of this is necessary.
I have not seen farm signs mentioned in this thread.  A well placed and well
designed sign really draws the customer.  It also gives credence to your
operation.  You look more proffessional; your giving off  an air of success.
It helps the customer separate your stand from the rest of the vendor's.
I agree with Liz that selling at the markets is a competitive game and
rather than use pricing as an advantage (it really isn't though)  I strive
to set myself apart from the rest of the vendors.  I look for making my
booth distinct, attractive, and a benefit to the customer. Product is
arranged to draw the eye. I plan my plantings to make sure certain items are
harvestable at the same times because they draw more if shown together than
separately.  Sometimes that also means hiring a third or fourth person at
peak season times to keep customers from waiting too long in line. The extra
cash paid out evens out in the long run.  I look at the arrangement of my
booth so customer flow is the best it can be.  At times it can be really
crazy and I feel at the end of the day I haven't had a moment to catch my
breath, I still want to try to make a personal connection with each
customer.  Remember names and tid bits about as many people as you can.
Bring those names and tid bits up the next time you see them.  Study the
fine art of manipulation and use it to your advantage.( manipulation isn't
always a bad thing!)  Enjoy building repoire with your customers, they will
love you for it.
With all that being said, it won't mean too much if you are in a spot that
goes against the psychology of the crowd.  Location, location, location.
Watch how your crowd flow works.  We were at a new market last year and
didn't get a chance to help decide where our booth was going to be.  It was
horrible!  We expected sales to be down by maybe half of what other markets
had been, but were not prepared for it being a fourth.  The sun hit every
customers eyes for 2/3 of the market hours and people walked right by us.
We were also in the middle of two booths that were ez ups and try as we did
to separate our look we couldn't make enough of a distinction.  I
continually told the manager it was a bad spot for the three of us.  She
eventually moved us and we tripled sales immediately.  It was pretty
dramatic.
Try to keep your containers of product full and over flowing if possible.
Nothing slows sales down then a partially filled container.  If I sold out,
I didn't bring enough.
Michaele
Growing Things
Carnation WA

> Liz
> Morningstar Gardens
> Pollocksville NC
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: mjb@premier1.net
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>


From sojournr@missouri.org Fri Feb 04 12:31:33 2000
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Michaele Blakely wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Elizabeth Pike <pike@always-online.com>
> To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
> Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 11:20 AM
> Subject: Re: Farmers Market Display ideas
> 
> I
> > used.)  Fix up the display with greens on bottom, & serving sized veggies
> > or whatever on top.  Keep dressing in the bottle with those tiny little
> > sample cups for serving. Be generous with size.  Grab them by their eyes &
> > nose, tickle their tummies & you'll have a customer for life!
> >
> 
> I'm sure health regulations vary county to county or state to state.  One
> item absolutely demanded by health authorities in our state is a hand
> washing station set up in the booth somewhere.  This doesn't need to be
> complex, a simple large water jug (although in our state it has to be
> insulated) with a free flowing spout, a drain bucket, soap and paper towels.
> Something to clean the knive with as well, and a food handler's card.  Why
> we can't just wash our hands after visiting the restroom and call it good is
> beyond me.  The health department insists that we wash our hands after we
> get back to the booth and I go along with it because it isn't too
> unreasonable.  If we don't cut the samples up, none of this is necessary.
> I have not seen farm signs mentioned in this thread.  A well placed and well
> designed sign really draws the customer.  It also gives credence to your
> operation.  You look more proffessional; your giving off  an air of success.
> It helps the customer separate your stand from the rest of the vendor's.
> I agree with Liz that selling at the markets is a competitive game and
> rather than use pricing as an advantage (it really isn't though)  I strive
> to set myself apart from the rest of the vendors.  I look for making my
> booth distinct, attractive, and a benefit to the customer. Product is
> arranged to draw the eye. I plan my plantings to make sure certain items are
> harvestable at the same times because they draw more if shown together than
> separately.  Sometimes that also means hiring a third or fourth person at
> peak season times to keep customers from waiting too long in line. The extra
> cash paid out evens out in the long run.  I look at the arrangement of my
> booth so customer flow is the best it can be.  At times it can be really
> crazy and I feel at the end of the day I haven't had a moment to catch my
> breath, I still want to try to make a personal connection with each
> customer.  Remember names and tid bits about as many people as you can.
> Bring those names and tid bits up the next time you see them.  Study the
> fine art of manipulation and use it to your advantage.( manipulation isn't
> always a bad thing!)  Enjoy building repoire with your customers, they will
> love you for it.
> With all that being said, it won't mean too much if you are in a spot that
> goes against the psychology of the crowd.  Location, location, location.
> Watch how your crowd flow works.  We were at a new market last year and
> didn't get a chance to help decide where our booth was going to be.  It was
> horrible!  We expected sales to be down by maybe half of what other markets
> had been, but were not prepared for it being a fourth.  The sun hit every
> customers eyes for 2/3 of the market hours and people walked right by us.
> We were also in the middle of two booths that were ez ups and try as we did
> to separate our look we couldn't make enough of a distinction.  I
> continually told the manager it was a bad spot for the three of us.  She
> eventually moved us and we tripled sales immediately.  It was pretty
> dramatic.
> Try to keep your containers of product full and over flowing if possible.
> Nothing slows sales down then a partially filled container.  If I sold out,
> I didn't bring enough.

Speaking of which, how do you transport the goods?  The only farmers
markets that are worthwhile for me to go to are an hour and a half and
an hour away.  That's quite a distance to transport veggies in high
summer in Missouri!  They'll have to go in the back of my pickup, and
I've been picking up styrofoam coolers from the vet (the ones
medications come packed in).

Does anyone have their own ice machine, and where did you find it and
how much did it cost?

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From pike@always-online.com Fri Feb 04 12:32:41 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:32:35
Subject: Last rock phosphate questions
To: market-farming
From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>


I'm away from my reference materials, can't find clear info on the web 
(limited time to search), & really need some expert answers.

Is rock phosphate also called triple phosphate??
Does the color vary from mine to mine?

Liz

PS  I went to purchase more rock phosphate at the same location where I got 
my stuff last year.  A new guy was available to help (They said the owner 
was still on vacation, but I think he was hiding in the back!).  I very 
slowly, very plainly explained what I wanted-black rock phosphate from our 
local state mine.  They proceeded to load 14-50# bags.  The clerk began 
filling out the receipt & I looked over her shoulder.  The loaded bags were 
not what I ordered!! It was something else entirely.  I asked if this was 
rock phosphate, & they told me I could call it what ever I wanted.  By this 
time every worker on the dock was watching!  (How embarrassing-this is a 
very redneck area!)  I repeated that this stuff must come from our local 
state mine.  I was again assured that it did.  So I asked to see their 
records of delivery.  Guess what?  Came from Florida, nothing wrong with 
that, but NOT what I ordered.  Why, I asked, when we can get our own, 
BETTER, stuff just 50 miles away,like I did last spring.  Cooporate 
consolidation was the answer.  They were flabbergasted when I kindly (with 
gritted teeth!) requested those bags to be off loaded pronto.  And then, as 
I was leaving, the head guy had the gaul to ask, just what is organic 
farming.  I've got a long row to hoe!!



From pike@always-online.com Fri Feb 04 12:43:09 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:43:4
Subject: Re: Farmers Market Display ideas/sampling/signs
To: market-farming
From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>


From Holly: Does anyone have their own ice machine, and where did you find 
it and how much did it cost?

I don't have my own machine, although I have access to as much ice as I 
need from our restaurant.  But this is not convenient as it is some 
distance from the market.  Since I don't like to lug a cooler of ice (these 
are sooo heavy!), I trade produce for ice (doesn't take much) from vendors 
who sell cold drinks, or restaurants located across the street.  If you're 
wanting ice for your own use, trade your own produce.  People love 
bartering & ice is such an easy giveaway, and you may actually gain a 
customer.  2 of the restaurants/coffee shop from which I receive ice, buy 
my flowers for their tables, & some produce to resell.  Yes they resell it 
for higher than my retail price, but the yacht owners who buy it don't seem 
to mind, and since it's a small amount I don't either.  Beggars can't be 
choosy!! ; )

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville  NC

From cappy@harborside.com Fri Feb 04 12:53:45 2000
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Subject: Re: food bank donations


Quoting Elizabeth Pike <pike@always-online.com>:

> Sue, my area does not have a food bank.  What I do, 
is take my unsold
> produce & flowers to a low-income apartment complex 
for the elderly. This
> began quite by accident when one market day when I 
just couldn't bring
> myself to throw this gorgeous, alive, nourishing food 
into my compost.  I
> swung into the parking lot, opened my trunk & began 
taking my coolers to
> the club room.  Residents wandered over to see what 
was going on.  Oh how I
>
> wish I'd had a video camera/tape recorder of that 
day.  Before my very
> eyes, these precious people returned to their youth, 
to former gardens &
> farms.  They  became quite animated with stories & I 
ended up staying for 3
>
> hours!!  They can't help me harvest, and some can't 
even eat what I bring. 
>
> But it has been such a great experience, that if I 
ever stop market
> farming, I will continue to share my garden with them.
>
> I went back a couple of weeks ago, just to check up 
on everyone, & several
> people gathered around to express concern over city 
plans to clean-up
> (read, DESTROY) a small section of wetlands between 
their apartments & the
> river.  They took me over & showed me where the 
rabbit lived.  Pointed out
> the squirrels, the possum, the old bird nests.  The 
turtles, the ducks, and
>
> a snake! Then they showed me their compost pile!!!  
They had taken their
> leftovers & started a compost--for me.  I cried.  
What goes around, comes
> around, and we'll never know when it will encompass 
us.
>
> Have a great day everyone!!
>
> Liz
> Morningstar Gardens
> Pollocksville NC
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: 
cappy@harborside.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
>
> What a beautiful story Liz.  I can just see you there.
What a thoughtful gift from you....your food and the 
gift of your time and friendship.

Any update on the wetlands destruction.  Here in 
Oregon, that's against the law.  (well, it's supposed 
to be, unless some hotshot works through the system).

Cappy on the Oregon coast

www.bumpercropmarketing.com 


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Subject: Re: food bank donations


Quoting Elizabeth Pike <pike@always-online.com>:

> Sue, my area does not have a food bank.  What I do, 
is take my unsold
> produce & flowers to a low-income apartment complex 
for the elderly. This
> began quite by accident when one market day when I 
just couldn't bring
> myself to throw this gorgeous, alive, nourishing food 
into my compost.  I
> swung into the parking lot, opened my trunk & began 
taking my coolers to
> the club room.  Residents wandered over to see what 
was going on.  Oh how I
>
> wish I'd had a video camera/tape recorder of that 
day.  Before my very
> eyes, these precious people returned to their youth, 
to former gardens &
> farms.  They  became quite animated with stories & I 
ended up staying for 3
>
> hours!!  They can't help me harvest, and some can't 
even eat what I bring. 
>
> But it has been such a great experience, that if I 
ever stop market
> farming, I will continue to share my garden with them.
>
> I went back a couple of weeks ago, just to check up 
on everyone, & several
> people gathered around to express concern over city 
plans to clean-up
> (read, DESTROY) a small section of wetlands between 
their apartments & the
> river.  They took me over & showed me where the 
rabbit lived.  Pointed out
> the squirrels, the possum, the old bird nests.  The 
turtles, the ducks, and
>
> a snake! Then they showed me their compost pile!!!  
They had taken their
> leftovers & started a compost--for me.  I cried.  
What goes around, comes
> around, and we'll never know when it will encompass 
us.
>
> Have a great day everyone!!
>
> Liz
> Morningstar Gardens
> Pollocksville NC
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: 
cappy@harborside.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
>
> What a beautiful story Liz.  I can just see you there.
What a thoughtful gift from you....your food and the 
gift of your time and friendship.

Any update on the wetlands destruction.  Here in 
Oregon, that's against the law.  (well, it's supposed 
to be, unless some hotshot works through the system).

Cappy on the Oregon coast

www.bumpercropmarketing.com 



From whistle@halcyon.com Fri Feb 04 12:55:02 2000
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Subject: Re: Last rock phosphate questions
From: "Shelley Pasco" <whistle@halcyon.com>
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Triple phosphate is NOT rock phosphate. Triple is not allowed in our organic
program. Be careful!
Shelley

----------
>From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
>To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
>Subject: Last rock phosphate questions
>Date: Fri, Feb 4, 2000, 12:32 PM
>

> I'm away from my reference materials, can't find clear info on the web
> (limited time to search), & really need some expert answers.
>
> Is rock phosphate also called triple phosphate??
> Does the color vary from mine to mine?

From mjb@premier1.net Fri Feb 04 12:59:25 2000
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From: "Michaele Blakely" <mjb@premier1.net>
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References: <LYR98946-35994-2000.02.04-12.32.39--mjb#premier1.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Last rock phosphate questions
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----- Original Message -----
From: Elizabeth Pike <pike@always-online.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 12:32 PM
Subject: Last rock phosphate questions


Liz;

I really admire your tenacity.   I run into the same behavior where I pick
up my ammendments.  It's been going on for ten years now and we are in a
good organic area.  Slowly, ever so slowly, I am starting to make sense to
them.
I've switched over to using fishmeal as a source of nitrogen and
phosphorous.
It was new ground last year and thankfully I didn't need much.  Soon I won't
need any.  You might want to do that, the phosphorous is also more readily
available.
Michaele
Growing Things


From whistle@halcyon.com Fri Feb 04 13:02:36 2000
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Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 10:01:06 -0800
Subject: Re: Farmers Market Display ideas/sampling/signs
From: "Shelley Pasco" <whistle@halcyon.com>
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I have to add something here that blew me away last summer. We had a 
reasonable assortment of veggies all summer at the same market Michaele was
talking about, where the sun was in her eyes. We did fair all summer
considering it was cold and rainy almost every market day! We didn't have a
huge quantity of any one thing until the winter squash came on, and I always
plant lots of varieties because it's fun for me, but we had TONS of squash.
I mean tons.
We took advantage of the situation. We were out in the squash patch the
night before market with our headlamps on, looking at the field, trying to
decide what to do. Do we take a few of everything just for variety? I just
have a little mazda pickup, so it wouldn't hold much squash after the other
veggies were in there. We decided to go BIG. We packed bushels and bushels
of ALL the squash. I stayed up an extra hour and made pretty, descriptive
signs for all 20 or so varieties. We had to take a box van to carry them
all, but market day was amazing. We had people taking pictures of our Wall
of Squash! People came with bags and loaded up on one of every kind, or
fiver or six of their favorite, especially the second week. We easily sold
at least 500 pounds of squash at $1 a pound! No questions asked! Everyone
was having fun, we were happy. We went to a movie on the way home to
celebrate!
Moral of story: make an exciting display of one thing, and make everything
else support the main item. Recipes helped too.
Shelley
Whistling Train Farm
Kent, WA

----------
>From: "Michaele Blakely" <mjb@premier1.net>
>To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
>Subject: Re: Farmers Market Display ideas/sampling/signs
>Date: Fri, Feb 4, 2000, 9:18 AM
>

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Elizabeth Pike <pike@always-online.com>
> To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
> Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 11:20 AM
> Subject: Re: Farmers Market Display ideas
>
>
> I
>> used.)  Fix up the display with greens on bottom, & serving sized veggies
>> or whatever on top.  Keep dressing in the bottle with those tiny little
>> sample cups for serving. Be generous with size.  Grab them by their eyes &
>> nose, tickle their tummies & you'll have a customer for life!
>>
>
> I'm sure health regulations vary county to county or state to state.  One
> item absolutely demanded by health authorities in our state is a hand
> washing station set up in the booth somewhere.  This doesn't need to be
> complex, a simple large water jug (although in our state it has to be
> insulated) with a free flowing spout, a drain bucket, soap and paper towels.
> Something to clean the knive with as well, and a food handler's card.  Why
> we can't just wash our hands after visiting the restroom and call it good is
> beyond me.  The health department insists that we wash our hands after we
> get back to the booth and I go along with it because it isn't too
> unreasonable.  If we don't cut the samples up, none of this is necessary.
> I have not seen farm signs mentioned in this thread.  A well placed and well
> designed sign really draws the customer.  It also gives credence to your
> operation.  You look more proffessional; your giving off  an air of success.
> It helps the customer separate your stand from the rest of the vendor's.
> I agree with Liz that selling at the markets is a competitive game and
> rather than use pricing as an advantage (it really isn't though)  I strive
> to set myself apart from the rest of the vendors.  I look for making my
> booth distinct, attractive, and a benefit to the customer. Product is
> arranged to draw the eye. I plan my plantings to make sure certain items are
> harvestable at the same times because they draw more if shown together than
> separately.  Sometimes that also means hiring a third or fourth person at
> peak season times to keep customers from waiting too long in line. The extra
> cash paid out evens out in the long run.  I look at the arrangement of my
> booth so customer flow is the best it can be.  At times it can be really
> crazy and I feel at the end of the day I haven't had a moment to catch my
> breath, I still want to try to make a personal connection with each
> customer.  Remember names and tid bits about as many people as you can.
> Bring those names and tid bits up the next time you see them.  Study the
> fine art of manipulation and use it to your advantage.( manipulation isn't
> always a bad thing!)  Enjoy building repoire with your customers, they will
> love you for it.
> With all that being said, it won't mean too much if you are in a spot that
> goes against the psychology of the crowd.  Location, location, location.
> Watch how your crowd flow works.  We were at a new market last year and
> didn't get a chance to help decide where our booth was going to be.  It was
> horrible!  We expected sales to be down by maybe half of what other markets
> had been, but were not prepared for it being a fourth.  The sun hit every
> customers eyes for 2/3 of the market hours and people walked right by us.
> We were also in the middle of two booths that were ez ups and try as we did
> to separate our look we couldn't make enough of a distinction.  I
> continually told the manager it was a bad spot for the three of us.  She
> eventually moved us and we tripled sales immediately.  It was pretty
> dramatic.
> Try to keep your containers of product full and over flowing if possible.
> Nothing slows sales down then a partially filled container.  If I sold out,
> I didn't bring enough.
> Michaele
> Growing Things
> Carnation WA
>
>> Liz
>> Morningstar Gardens
>> Pollocksville NC
>>
>> ---
>> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: mjb@premier1.net
>> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
>>
>
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: whistle@halcyon.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
> 

From cappy@harborside.com Fri Feb 04 13:14:39 2000
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References: <LYR98960-35964-2000.02.04-10.32.31--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99013-35976-2000.02.04-11.15.47--cappy#harborside.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Subject: Re: Farmers Market Display ideas


Quoting Hook Family <guldann@ix.netcom.com>:

> I think this is very interesting.  I spent an hour or 
more surfing the net
> yesterday, for the psychology of marketing. My loose 
finding are, make
> every
> customer glad that THEY (not any generic customer, by 
them) came to your
> stand make a genuine acknowlegement of their 
presence, make them see the
> benefit that your product will be for them, not I the 
farmer grow great
> veggies but you the customer will be better if you 
buy this.  All the stuff
> Liz wrote about making your stand look pretty and 
neat.  Prices are a must.
> All info is good.  Instead of a detailed vit content 
how about above
> carrots
> say high in Vit. A, above tomatoes high in Vit C etc. 
not a detailed list
> of
> every nutrient in them.
> I read the next suggestion on the net I intend to try 
it in my farm stand
> (when built).  It said to further portray freshness 
have workers were a
> flower pinned (neatly) on shirt.  Oh yea and 
you/worker should be neat and
> cleanly dressed.  Some stuff I've learned so far.
>
> Marketing is our topic for the next week or so of the 
class I am taking I
> find it so interesting.  Beth
>
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: 
cappy@harborside.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
>
> 
Hi Beth,

Delighted to hear your comments (all great) and that 
you're taking a marketing class.  What part of the 
country are you?  Any marketing concerns on your mind?

I'm a marketing writer and conference speaker (not 
trying to sell you anything here, just sharing 
information)

Please check my website   www.bumpercropmarketing.com

Besides promoting my speaking services to conference 
coordinators, it's an information site for small farms 
and specialty food companies.  I'm in the process of 
adding more book suggestions and a section on 
associations, upcoming workshops, etc.

If you're in the northwest, there's a terrific 
conference coming up Feb 28. 29,
 Marketing in the New Millennium 
in Seattle. 
 Presented by the Washington State Assn. of Farmers' 
Markets.  I'm speaking there, and can't wait to meet 
everyone and hear all the other presentations.

Their website is:

www.wafarmersmarkets.com

All the best to you,

Cappy Tosetti   (Cappy is short for Capella)
Gleneden Beach, Oregon

cappy@harborside.com



From cappy@harborside.com Fri Feb 04 13:14:54 2000
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Subject: Re: Farmers Market Display ideas


Quoting Hook Family <guldann@ix.netcom.com>:

> I think this is very interesting.  I spent an hour or 
more surfing the net
> yesterday, for the psychology of marketing. My loose 
finding are, make
> every
> customer glad that THEY (not any generic customer, by 
them) came to your
> stand make a genuine acknowlegement of their 
presence, make them see the
> benefit that your product will be for them, not I the 
farmer grow great
> veggies but you the customer will be better if you 
buy this.  All the stuff
> Liz wrote about making your stand look pretty and 
neat.  Prices are a must.
> All info is good.  Instead of a detailed vit content 
how about above
> carrots
> say high in Vit. A, above tomatoes high in Vit C etc. 
not a detailed list
> of
> every nutrient in them.
> I read the next suggestion on the net I intend to try 
it in my farm stand
> (when built).  It said to further portray freshness 
have workers were a
> flower pinned (neatly) on shirt.  Oh yea and 
you/worker should be neat and
> cleanly dressed.  Some stuff I've learned so far.
>
> Marketing is our topic for the next week or so of the 
class I am taking I
> find it so interesting.  Beth
>
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: 
cappy@harborside.com
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
>
> 
Hi Beth,

Delighted to hear your comments (all great) and that 
you're taking a marketing class.  What part of the 
country are you?  Any marketing concerns on your mind?

I'm a marketing writer and conference speaker (not 
trying to sell you anything here, just sharing 
information)

Please check my website   www.bumpercropmarketing.com

Besides promoting my speaking services to conference 
coordinators, it's an information site for small farms 
and specialty food companies.  I'm in the process of 
adding more book suggestions and a section on 
associations, upcoming workshops, etc.

If you're in the northwest, there's a terrific 
conference coming up Feb 28. 29,
 Marketing in the New Millennium 
in Seattle. 
 Presented by the Washington State Assn. of Farmers' 
Markets.  I'm speaking there, and can't wait to meet 
everyone and hear all the other presentations.

Their website is:

www.wafarmersmarkets.com

All the best to you,

Cappy Tosetti   (Cappy is short for Capella)
Gleneden Beach, Oregon

cappy@harborside.com




From mjb@premier1.net Fri Feb 04 13:15:06 2000
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Message-ID: <00a301bf6f3c$c2052060$a53695cf@pmjb>
From: "Michaele Blakely" <mjb@premier1.net>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98946-35835-2000.02.03-18.51.31--mjb#premier1.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Re:soil tests, micronutrients
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:22:10 -0800
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----- Original Message -----
From: Ann ODonnell <castoriver@juno.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 1:41 PM
Subject: Re:soil tests, micronutrients


> I recently had my soil tested through extension and had very low levels
> of S. (~5ppm). My pH is also low: 5.5. Can I just spread Sulfur dust on
> the surface? Will this be toxic to good microbes? Affect the pH?
> Also had astronomical levels of Mn. (~50ppm) Can anybody explain this?
> Is there anything I can do about it?

Ann:
At first I read your message to read too high of Mg. then realized it was
Mn.  I didn't know about that one so I looked it up in the reference I use
for soil testing.
Know Your Soil
A handbook for understanding your soil report
by Amigo Cantisano

According to Amigo's thought 50ppm is at the high end of being okay.  I've
used this reference for a while now when I'm starting new fields.  His
advice is right on target.  I wouldn't worry about it and just keep with a
good soil building plan.

Michaele
Growing Things
Carnation Wa
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>


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Subject: Re: Vitamin & Mineral List
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Hi:

Does anyone have any phone number or URL for Acres USA?

Mahalo,
Lisa

From pike@always-online.com Fri Feb 04 13:21:08 2000
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Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 13:21:5
Subject: Re: Last rock phosphate questions
To: market-farming
From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>


Actually, I have just found a local source of fish/crab meal, approved by 
state certifiers, whew!  But I'm not sure if the phosphorus level is high 
enough. I'll doublecheck when I get home.

Liz




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Subject: Modern technology
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Hello Everyone.

Discovered something on our discussion forum this morning.  I sent two =
personal messages to individuals this morning.  Hit reply, not reply to =
all.
Just wanted to chat with them and not bother everyone else.

A little later I discovered the messages on the forum for all to read.  =
Also, I noticed there were two of each message.  (that's because it =
didn't look like the message went through at first).

I'm sorry to be filling up the forum with unnecessary messages that take =
your time and space.  I need to find out what's wrong on my end of the =
line.
From now on I'll take the e-mail messages I want to respond to and write =
a brand new e-mail (won't use the reply button).

Really sorry.  Just what you need.  More stuff to sift through.  Won't =
happen again.

Cappy on the Oregon coast



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<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Hello Everyone.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Discovered something on our =
discussion=20
forum this morning.&nbsp; I sent two personal</FONT><FONT face=3D"Comic =
Sans MS"=20
size=3D2> messages to individuals this morning.&nbsp; Hit =
<STRONG>reply</STRONG>,=20
not <STRONG>reply to all</STRONG>.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Just wanted to chat with them =
and not=20
bother everyone else.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>A little later I discovered =
the messages=20
on the forum for all to read.&nbsp; Also, I noticed there were two of =
each=20
message.&nbsp; (that's because it didn't look like the message went =
through at=20
first).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>I'm sorry to be filling up =
the forum with=20
unnecessary messages that take your time and space.&nbsp; I need to find =
out=20
what's wrong on my end of the line.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>From now on I'll take the =
e-mail messages=20
I want to respond to and write a brand new e-mail (won't use the reply=20
button).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Really sorry.&nbsp; Just what =
you=20
need.&nbsp; More stuff to sift through.&nbsp; Won't happen =
again.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Cappy on the Oregon =
coast</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From fullcircle@jps.net Fri Feb 04 13:43:52 2000
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Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:43:32 -0800
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: potato scab revisited


Shelley wrote me privately, no doubt to save me from embarassment -
thanks Shelley



>Actually Marcie, potato scab is also fungal.

>snip

>---------


>>From: Marcie Rosenzweig <<fullcircle@jps.net>


snip

>> Scab on potatoes is caused by a soil bacteria=20

snip


Actually,  we're both right, but I wouldn't have known that without
your note.


The causal organism in Common scab is Streptomyces scabies from the
family Actinomyces. These bacteria differ from other bacteria in that
the are filimentous and produce spores - like fungi


The causal organism in Powdery scab is Spongospora subterranea, a soil
fungus.


for those of you more interested in the topic


<underline><color><param>0000,0000,FFFF</param>www.axp.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PNG/r=
607101011.html</color></underline>

<underline><color><param>0000,0000,FFFF</param>www.ksu/plantpath/extension/f=
acts/pot4.html

www.agcom.purdue.edu/AgCom/Pubs/BP/BP-8.html

www.ag.ohio-state.edu/~ohioline/hyg-fact/3000/3105.html


</color></underline>Thanks, Shelley for keeping me on my toes.


Marcie A. Rosenzweig

=46ull Circle Organic Farm

Auburn, CA


From cgrowers@guppy.pond.net Fri Feb 04 13:58:27 2000
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Subject: Fertility questions
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 00 11:09:14 -0800
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A wonderful primer on soil fertility is "Fertile Soil" by Robert Parnes. 
This book has quite a price tag, $40 when purchased 5 years ago, but 
worth every penny. Discussions on the role of humus, biological activity, 
and formulating fertility programs. Priceless charts on nutrient contents 
of loads of fertilizers/manures/etc.

Aaron

Creative Growers
Aaron Silverman
88741 Torrence Rd.
Noti, Or. 97461
cgrowers@pond.net
Quality Produce & Pastured Poultry


From cgrowers@guppy.pond.net Fri Feb 04 14:09:21 2000
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Subject: Re: Modern technology
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 00 11:19:59 -0800
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Another note about Reply's and email programs:

I currently use Claris's emailer Lite, a free simple program supplied by 
the internet provider. It has the ability to set up filing folders to 
save downloaded messages. Nice program, but pretty much the same as 
Eudora and others I've used in the past.

When you hit reply to a message from the list, it doesn't matter whether 
you choose the sender or everyone. The message, according to the program, 
comes from the list, NOT THE INDIVIDUAL SENDER. You can reply to the 
individual two ways:
1) After hitting reply, look at the address box, which will most likely 
read "market-farming@franklin.oit.un" Highlight the box, and type in the 
individual's address
2) Start a new letter, addressed to the individual. Cut and Paste what 
you want into the new letter & go from there.

As for reply's that automatically put the entire message into the reply - 
most programs have "Preference" windows that you can program whether you 
want this feature. If not, just erase what you don't need before 
composing the rest of the letter.

As Marcie has pointed out several times, keeping messages "clean" (ie, 
minimal original texts in replys & minimal responses directed at an 
individual) will facilitate discussions, not overload rural mailboxes, 
and (quite frankly) be more inviting for those lurking to contribute. 
From lurking experience, there's not much draw to conribute to a list 
where 90% of postings come from 6 or 8 folks (not a criticism, just a 
personal observation).

Aaron

Creative Growers
Aaron Silverman
88741 Torrence Rd.
Noti, Or. 97461
cgrowers@pond.net
Quality Produce & Pastured Poultry


From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Fri Feb 04 14:44:40 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: Re: Orchards and fruit trees
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 13:44:32 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
Reply-To: lflondon@mindspring.com
Message-ID: <9duk9s4kfk03ebfaia9d5rgnsdoav20ea4@4ax.com>
References: <LYR99136-35728-2000.02.03-12.39.10--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <40477@market-farming>
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I am looking for a source for:

1) Virginia Winesap
2) Mountaineer

both incredibly good

Here is info on a nursery here in NC that specializes 
in heirloom southern apple varieties - some especially suited to NC
- some impervious to cedar apple rust, some not 
he propagates hundreds of varieties

Lee Calhoun
Calhoun's Nursery
295 Blacktwig Road
Pittsboro, North Carolina, 27312

Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
metalab.unc.edu/market-farming Market Farming
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu



From sojournr@missouri.org Fri Feb 04 14:50:35 2000
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References: <LYR99136-35728-2000.02.03-12.39.10--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <40477@market-farming> <LYR99136-36024-2000.02.04-14.44.37--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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"Lawrence F. London, Jr." wrote:
> 
> I am looking for a source for:
> 
> 1) Virginia Winesap
> 2) Mountaineer
> 
> both incredibly good

How does the Virginia Winesap differ from the Red Stayman Winesap?

I'm pretty sure one of the trees we had when I was a kid was a Winesap,
but I have no idea what SORT of Winesap - I didn't know there WAS more
than one sort.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From settlemier@wa-net.com Fri Feb 04 15:07:44 2000
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>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')

It won't allow me to send a blank e-mail, so you may want to change the unsubscription
instructions.
Thanks
Chad


From suzyr@netos.com Fri Feb 04 15:18:03 2000
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 >
References: 
 <LYR100929-35929-2000.02.04-07.08.19--suzyr#netos.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu
 >
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:12:35 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: suzyr@netos.com (Suzy Roth)
Subject: Re: My research...(was Re: Orchards and fruit trees)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"


>I will be planting other fruit - strawberries, blackberries, blueberries,
but not in the "orchard".

I wouldn't dismiss planting a variety of crops around your fruit 
trees. On my trip to Italy last fall I was struck by the mix of crops 
in the Italian countryside. Grapes and olive trees grew in rows side 
by side with the family garden growing down the middle of a few wide 
rows. While the language barrier kept me from quizzing the local 
farmer, what I saw being practiced seemed extremely logical and 
similar to what's being preached in permaculture and organic farming 
pubs. I think they called it fooling the pests! I currently don't 
practice this method but plan on setting up my orchard/berries/grapes 
in a similar way.

Another observation were the orchards around Bologne, Italy. Their 
fruit trees are espaliered in rows. While this seems like a lot of 
work at first, an orchardist near me in WA state has been hit with 
apple maggot fly and he said that if he could have coated both sides 
of his fruit with soap spray, he wouldn't have gotten as much maggot 
damage which seemed to occur on the side of the apple facing the 
interior of the tree. He believes the extensive espaliering I saw in 
Italy was their way of being able to spray both sides of the apple.

Suzy Roth
Thistle Ridge Farm & Gardens
Issaquah, WA

From suzyr@netos.com Fri Feb 04 15:18:05 2000
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In-Reply-To: 
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 >
References: 
 <LYR99136-35942-2000.02.04-09.11.47--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.un
 c.edu>
 <LYR100929-35953-2000.02.04-09.50.35--suzyr#netos.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu
 >
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 11:54:46 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: suzyr@netos.com (Suzy Roth)
Subject: Re: My research...(was Re: Orchards and fruit trees)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"


>Rose & Fred Lieberman wrote:
> >
> > Holly, I can't even tell you how long I've tried to get this
> > out-of-print book "Organic Orcharding."
>
I picked up a copy of Organic Orcharding last year at a small used 
bookstore in an equally small town in WA. Keep looking in any used 
bookstore you come across and check all used book websites like 
UsedBooks.com or a wonderful one I just found in Camden, Maine near 
where Scott and Helen Nearing used to live called ABCDbooks.com. I've 
found a few agricultural books I've been looking for in their 
bookstore.

Suzy Roth
Thistle Ridge Farm & Gardens
Issaquah, WA

From fullcircle@jps.net Fri Feb 04 16:01:40 2000
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Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 13:01:03 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: food bank donations


Sue,

We market through farmers' markets and a CSA.  We donate a full-up bagged
"dignity share" to the local Women's shelter plus any shares not picked up
during the week, and parishable "leftovers" from the farmers market.  A
volunteer comes by on Monday morning to get the food.

A neighboring farm donates to the local food bank through a group called
Senior Gleaners.  These folks started gleaning from farms about 20 years
ago.  They're careful and respectful of both your land and your time.

Call your nearest Second Harvest group.  They may have a resource for you.

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From fullcircle@jps.net Fri Feb 04 16:02:12 2000
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In-Reply-To: 
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References: 
 <LYR98946-35979-2000.02.04-11.20.53--mjb#premier1.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu
 >
 <LYR99136-35991-2000.02.04-12.11.27--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.un
 c.edu>
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Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 13:01:03 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Transporting to market (was Farmers Market Display ...)


Holly et al,

We bought a very used 18 passenger van.  Pulled the seats out and put in a
false floor.  Our market umbrellas (distinguishes us from the EZ ups)
tables (drilled with umbrella holes) umbrella stands, signage holders,
rubber mats to stand on, and scale holder all go under the false floor, so
we can set up without moving the produce twice.  Cooler sits at the back
door.  Other produce is accessible through the side door.

We built a couple of "cold boxes" out of rigid foam insulation and duct
tape.  2'x4'x2' with a "hinged" lid.  We recycle 1 gallon water jugs
through our chest freezer in the barn.  Two frozen jugs keeps chilled
greens cool and in good shape not only to the market but during the market.
We also take squirt bottles to mist the produce during market.  Greens are
packed in tall kitchen garbage bags in market table quantities.  We only
open one bag of each at a time.

We're at 100=B0 at noon somedays during the summer.

>Snip
>Speaking of which, how do you transport the goods?  The only farmers
>markets that are worthwhile for me to go to are an hour and a half and
>an hour away.  That's quite a distance to transport veggies in high
>summer in Missouri!

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
=46ull Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From creech5@mail.tds.net Fri Feb 04 16:19:25 2000
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Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 16:20:38 -0500
From: Michael Creech <creech5@mail.tds.net>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: organic orcharding
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HOw about Organic Orcharding by Gene Logsdon--great book!!!! YOu can
usually find it used on bookfinder.com

Penny 

Lee Lawton wrote:
> 
> A couple of titles which come to mind (and to hand) are:
> 
> The Apple Grower, A Guide for the Organic Orchardist by Michael Phillips,
> Chelsea Green Publishing, 1998
> 
> Organic Fruit Tree Management by Linda Edwards, Certified Organic
> Associations of British Columbia, 1998.
> 
> Lee Lawton
> Over the Rainbow Farm
> Junction City, Oregon
> 
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: creech5@mail.tds.net
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')

From sojournr@missouri.org Fri Feb 04 16:24:21 2000
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From: Sojourner <sojournr@missouri.org>
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Rose & Fred Lieberman wrote:
> 
> Holly, I can't even tell you how long I've tried to get this out-of-print
> book "Organic Orcharding."

OK, here's a possibility:

http://www.nafex.org/

They maintain a lending library of books on fruit trees and orcharding,
and they do have a copy of "Organic Orcharding".

Only drawback is you'll have to join - the library is for members only
(North American Fruit Explorers, a group that Gene Logsdon belonged to
and he mentions in "Organic Orcharding" several times).  It'll cost you
$10 and you'll be forced to read their quarterly magazine.  <VBG>

Well, maybe not forced.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From flowers@rt66.com Fri Feb 04 16:30:48 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: Transporting to market :rose coffins



>
>We built a couple of "cold boxes" out of rigid foam insulation and duct
>tape.  2'x4'x2' with a "hinged" lid. 


try collecting what we call styrofoam 'rose coffins' from a local florist.
  they are used to ship roses and other frost/heat sensitive flowers theya
re sdesigned for one time use but we get several seasons use if we can keep
them out of the sun. 

once you establish a rapport with the florists, they will be glad to save
them for you.. at worst they cost 5 bucks  and hold lots of produce or even
flowers !
we  collect enough over th winter that we resell them to other farmers ..at
a small profit of course!:)

martin
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow

5059898337 office
5057578337 farm april/november
5059203421 cell



From flowers@rt66.com Fri Feb 04 16:40:45 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: Farmers Market Display ideas/sampling/signs


>Nothing slows sales down then a partially filled container.  If I sold out,
I didn't bring enough.


or could be the price was too low.... we try to not sell everyhting, if we
do it means the price was too low for the demand.

 martin

Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow

5059898337 office
5057578337 farm april/november
5059203421 cell



From ripley@iglou.com Fri Feb 04 16:51:21 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: ripley@iglou.com (Dawn M. Ripley)
Subject: Acres, USA URL
Message-Id: <E12Gqd2-0000qn-00@iglou.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 16:51:00 -0500


>Hi:
>
>Does anyone have any phone number or URL for Acres USA?
>
>Mahalo,
>Lisa
>

Hey, Lisa:

Try

        www.acresusa.com

It's not much more than a site for soliciting subscriptions, but there 'tis.

Dawn

--------------------

Dawn M. Ripley                                         dripley@ca.uky.edu
County Extension Agent for Urban Programs              www.ca.uky.edu
Cooperative Extension Service, Jefferson County
8012 Vinecrest Avenue, Suite 1
Louisville, Kentucky  40222-4690
(502) 425-4482
(502) 425-0109 fax


From pike@always-online.com Fri Feb 04 17:33:42 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:33:38
Subject: Farm Show Experience-interesting & disturbing
To: market-farming
From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>


Had to wade through an ocean of testosterone & cigarette smoke, but I'm 
glad I went!

Good Thing:  discovering innovative greenhouse builder & supplier just 30 
miles from me.  Score on 1-10 scale = 8 (subtracted 2 points for not 
staffing booth-never, no, never leave a sales show booth without someone to 
greet potential customers!)

Never seen before: stainless steel seedling cart from above supplier, 
polycarbonate sides, screened shelves, on wheels to be rolled wherever the 
sun is, or for extra protection in greenhouse.  Score: on 1-10 = 12!  
(while salesmen were away, I took measurements--to build my own.  Sorry 
guys, that's what you get for walking away!)

Disturbing: Farming Gone Hollywood.  Equipment so large, dangerous, 
specialized, expensive, as to be ready for debut in next Hollywood thriller 
killer movie.

Most disturbing: "suits" at a farm show.  Don't dare try to shake (grab) my 
hand when you're in a double breasted, custom tailored suit with designer 
accessories, & extol the virtues of ge seed!!  Repulsive.

Sad: the farmers surrounding the ge seed booths. (Who is saying there will 
be less of this mess planted this year??)

Sweetest: the eager wave I received from a 2 year old miniature farmer, 
dressed exactly like his daddy!  So precious!

Sorry, just had to share!  Now, I've got to go wash this !@#$% cigarette 
smoke out of my hair!

Liz Who's ready to get home to wide open spaces...   
Morningstar Garden
Pollocksville NC 

From waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Fri Feb 04 17:35:23 2000
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Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 17:37:30 -0500
From: Alex McGregor <waldenfarm@sprintmail.com>
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Wilderness Flowers wrote:

> >Nothing slows sales down then a partially filled container.  If I sold out,
> I didn't bring enough.

Something I learned from the produce manager of a food co-op, where I was the store
manager, is to keep produce bins full. He said that if he let the broccoli (for example)
get down to only a few heads in the display cooler, no more would sell that day. If he
kept it full, we sold 10-12 cases a day. He called this the "cornucopia effect."

I adapted this to selling at a market by carrying extra baskets of various sizes. When
there were lulls in the action, I put vegies in smaller baskets. The half bushel of
whatever is more appealing to customers spilling out of a half bushel basket than in a
half full bushel basket.

The main thing is to keep working your produce. Cull the wilted or mangled and keep the
containers and display shelves full. I decrease display size as the day wears on. You can
also give away the less than perfect and mangled as freebies- buys more good will and
repeat sales than cash does.

And the gallon jugs of water rotated through our chest freezer work great! We fill them
with our filtered drinking water for cold drinks during the market, and they keep the
greens cool. I made boxes out of scrap plywood and lined them with 1/2" styrene
insulation board on the inside. The insulation is a friction fit so I can take it out for
cleaning the boxes.

Happy Marketing!

Alex McGregor
Walden Farm
Walden Ridge, TN


From fullcircle@jps.net Fri Feb 04 17:37:07 2000
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Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 14:36:19 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: organic & conventional farming compatibility


Liz is correct.

I think the bias toward, organic is, in part,  because smaller growers in
particular find that differenciator to be an advatage in the marketplace.
For a lot of us it's a philosphical difference.  However, this list is
meant to be inclusive, hence the "respect" lecture in the FAQ :-)

>snip<
>I believe the intent of this list was to inspire
>dialog for the encouragement & education of everyone.  So, please, (Marcie,
>I'm sure you'll let me know if I'm out of line here ; ).)if you have
>something to discuss that's outside the organic threads, please don't
>hesitate to post.  This list is for you,too.  I'm not trying to stir up
>trouble, just thoughtful, meaningful, polite dialogue. As an adult, I learn
>from many viewpoints. I may not always agree with them, but they expose my
>beliefs so that I must re-examine them to discover if in fact they are the
>truth I seek.  There's room for other viewpoints on this list.  I, for one,
>am ready to listen.
>

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From flowers@rt66.com Fri Feb 04 17:40:04 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: Farmers Market Display ideas/sampling/signs


alex

re : I made boxes out of scrap plywood and lined them with 1/2" styrene
>insulation board on the inside. The insulation is a friction fit so I can
take it out for
>cleaning the boxes.

sounds like a great technique we'll adapt that for our rose coffins and make
them last even longer.

 i like the use of the freezer jugs too!

 lots of good experiences being exchanged here

 i sure could have used thiis advise years ago when we first started ..
>
>Happy Marketing!
>

martin
>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: flowers@rt66.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>
>
>
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow

5059898337 office
5057578337 farm april/november
5059203421 cell



From fullcircle@jps.net Fri Feb 04 17:41:54 2000
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References: 
 <LYR98946-35835-2000.02.03-18.51.31--mjb#premier1.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu
 >
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Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 14:41:35 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Re:soil tests, micronutrients



>snip<
>Know Your Soil
>A handbook for understanding your soil report
>by Amigo Cantisano
>
If you have your soil tested through Peaceful Valley Farm Supply, this
publication is available to you.  Amigo started the firm in 1972.  I used
this booklet regularly before it became burned into my brain.

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From flowers@rt66.com Fri Feb 04 17:45:11 2000
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To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: polystyrene seed flats with legs


no they dont walk out to the field and plant them selves

i saw these at a flower conference in europe.
  they are like speedling flats but have short feet molded in so they can be
stacked with  out injuring the plugs,for shipment or for taking to the field.
so the question : anyone seen these critters here in the  states??
martin

Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow

5059898337 office
5057578337 farm april/november
5059203421 cell



From london@metalab.unc.edu Fri Feb 04 18:38:28 2000
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:16:20 -0500
From: Donald E Davison <donald@mich.com>
To: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: TV - The safety of Organic Produce

Notice:

    On Friday 2/04/00 at 10 pm EST, ABC's 20/20 presents:

    John Stossel investigates the safety of organic produce.

Donald,


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References: <LYR98943-36056-2000.02.04-16.40.44--waldenfarm#sprintmail.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98946-36062-2000.02.04-17.35.22--mjb#premier1.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Farmers Market Display ideas/sampling/signs
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----- Original Message -----
From: Alex McGregor <waldenfarm@sprintmail.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: Farmers Market Display ideas/sampling/signs


> Wilderness Flowers wrote:
>
> > >Nothing slows sales down then a partially filled container.  If I sold
out,
> > I didn't bring enough.
>
Actually I wrote that, and W. Flower's reply was that perhaps the price was
too low.  Our prices are on the high end of market prices.  We sell at an
extremely busy market and sometimes that means two or three loads at peak
times in the season.  We use to have a box van but sold it.  I didn't like
it, took up too much space for our booth size.  I also feel it's important
not to run out, but sometimes customer
demand exceeds supply and I just can't in good conscience raise my prices
any higher.

Alex McGregor wrote:
> I adapted this to selling at a market by carrying extra baskets of various
sizes. When
> there were lulls in the action, I put vegies in smaller baskets. The half
bushel of
> whatever is more appealing to customers spilling out of a half bushel
basket than in a
> half full bushel basket.

I do this as well, although I try to keep a large display, by the end of the
day it isn't possible, so out come the smaller baskets/boxes, down go the
tables and things are once again re-arranged.  Not only do you still look
full, but it also attracts a different customer that is seeing your stand
through
different eyes, and your stand didn't attract them the first time around
>
> The main thing is to keep working your produce. Cull the wilted or mangled

Nothing turns a customer off  faster than wilted produce.

> also give away the less than perfect and mangled as freebies- buys more
good will and
> repeat sales than cash does.

Unfortunately at my market, we aren't allowed to give freebies (except to
the food bank at the end of the day) but I do offer deals for food that has
been pulled off the tables.  It's not free, but almost.
>
Frozen water jugs take up too much space for me, and I don't have to worry
as much about heat as some folks do.  If I need extra cooling for the day I
freeze plastic ziplock bags full of water and can tuck them in where need
be.  If I had to worry about heat I'd probably want the gallon jugs.

Michaele
Growing Things
Carnation WA


From rbfarr@erols.com Fri Feb 04 19:01:48 2000
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The funny thing is - well, not exactly funny:  the number of farmers who
will smoke and then go out into the field, spreading Tobacco Mosaic
Virus.

Whoops -

R.



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Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 16:16:19 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Phosphorous (was Homemade fertilizer)


Liz et al
>
>I have Jeavon's & Coleman's books.  Here is something I do not
>understand.  Jeavons recommends rock/soft phosphate in his fertilizer
>mixtures.  Coleman advises them for long term fertilization on a 2, 6,
>10+year regimen.  If rp is slow release, why put it in as Jeavons'
>recommends??  Do the phosphates break down quicker in intensive
>planting as opposed to row crops?  Coleman plants in beds, too.  This
>appears contradictory.


My understanding is tha P doesn't migrate easily in the soil.  We're on
abandoned orchard --30 years +ago-- it was farmed conventional and a lot of
P added to the soil as it promotes flower and fruit development.  Our
native soil is low P but mine always tested slightly high due to the stuff
that was added.

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From grandad@grandadsfarm.com Fri Feb 04 19:21:08 2000
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Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 18:17:34 -0600
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Farmers Market Display ideas
References: <LYR98960-35964-2000.02.04-10.32.31--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99013-35976-2000.02.04-11.15.47--cappy#harborside.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99119-36005-2000.02.04-13.14.39--grandad#grandadsfarm.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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> My loose 
> finding are, make
> > every
> > customer glad that THEY (not any generic customer, by 
> them) came to your
> > stand make a genuine acknowlegement of their 
> presence, make them see the
> > benefit that your product will be for them

	A good down home definition of customer service.  Whenever we
as consumers buy anything it is for a multitude of reasons, but
the most important one is that it makes us feel good.  Most
people will feel good if they are made to feel important.  There
is a restaurant here in Columbia called G&D's.  The restaurant
is nothing special, the food is good but not really fancy.  I
keep going there because Angelo, the owner / cook remembers me
by name and that I like an extra piece of Texas toast with my
steak order.  When I was going to school our finances were not
capable to go to his restaurant, I hadn't been there in three
years but when I went in to have a steak dinner a few weeks ago,
he hadn't forgotten me and put my extra piece of Texas toast on
my order without my asking.  It was as if I had been going there
regularly.  Will I continue to keep them in my dining out
choices, you bet.
	Every customer is your best customer. 
-- 
From mailto:grandad@grandadsfarm.com and 
the Home of Grandad's Farm Magazine 
in the beautiful suburbs of Columbia, Missouri
http://www.grandadsfarm.com/

From pike@always-online.com Fri Feb 04 19:42:40 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 19:42:23
Subject: Re: Farm Show Experience-interesting & disturbing
To: market-farming
From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>


I've been told it's been 25 years since this virus has been detected in 
cigarettes.  But then I had 100 tomato plants wiped out 2 years ago with 
TMV (confirmed by extention office) after smoking friend tended garden in 
my absense.  Didn't wear the gloves I requested.  Stupid, stupid, stupid.  
Black widows love my tomatoes-the gloves were for her protection.

Liz
  

From KWallie@aol.com Fri Feb 04 19:48:46 2000
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Subject: Re: Farm Show Experience-interesting & disturbing
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In a message dated 2/4/00 6:43:22 PM Central Standard Time, 
pike@always-online.com writes:

<< TMV (confirmed by extention office) after smoking friend tended garden in 
 my absense.  Didn't wear the gloves I requested.  Stupid, stupid, stupid.  >>

yes this is stupid, i am a smoker (ashamed to admit it anymore) i seed, 
plant, and work my garden in surgical gloves AND garden gloves...

From grandad@grandadsfarm.com Fri Feb 04 19:50:26 2000
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Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 18:46:43 -0600
From: Grandad <grandad@grandadsfarm.com>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Modern technology
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> From now on I'll take the e-mail messages I want to respond to and write a brand new e-mail
> (won't use the reply button).
	But if you do that the messages won't "thread" and get sorted
together.  Doesn't your mail program have a drag and drop
feature?  
-- 
From mailto:grandad@grandadsfarm.com and 
the Home of Grandad's Farm Magazine 
in the beautiful suburbs of Columbia, Missouri
http://www.grandadsfarm.com/

From soberle@bwn.net Fri Feb 04 20:03:55 2000
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Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 17:04:29 -0700
From: Sue Oberle <soberle@bwn.net>
Organization: Oberle Botanical
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Gosh at least that long. I remember hearing this as an undergrad 22 yrs (could that be?)
ago.

Elizabeth Pike wrote:

> I've been told it's been 25 years since this virus has been detected in
> cigarettes.  But then I had 100 tomato plants wiped out 2 years ago with
> TMV (confirmed by extention office) after smoking friend tended garden in
> my absense.  Didn't wear the gloves I requested.  Stupid, stupid, stupid.
> Black widows love my tomatoes-the gloves were for her protection.
>
> Liz
>
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: soberle@bwn.net
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')

--
***********************
Sue Oberle
Oberle Botanical
Fort Collins, Colorado
email: soberle@bwn.net
voice: (970)493-5672
fax:   (970)493-3358
***********************



From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Fri Feb 04 20:17:41 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: Re: Modern technology
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 19:17:27 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
Reply-To: lflondon@mindspring.com
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References: <40572@market-farming>
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On Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:44:40 -0800, "Cappy Tosetti"
<cappy@harborside.com> wrote:

>From now on I'll take the e-mail messages I want to respond to and write a brand new e-mail (won't use the reply button).

Again, with emphasis :-) <----note smiley, if you find a post from
someone in the list that you want to send a private reply to
just go ahead and hit the reply button then mark and cut
out of the To: line the address of the m-f list. Then cut and paste
the email id of the person you want to send the message to into the 
now empty space in the To: line. That's all there is to it.

I want to leave the "reply to list only when user does a reply"
function as is because things work better that way - so learn to use
your email software - and use cut and paste to direct your email
where you want it to go. Its easy.   - LL
Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
metalab.unc.edu/market-farming Market Farming
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu



From london@metalab.unc.edu Fri Feb 04 22:27:47 2000
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 19:08:26 -0500
From: Gord Hawkes <logcabinorchard@cyberus.ca>
To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Demographics

Hi Saneteers.  I am writing a report for our local farmers market and am in
the process of seeking out literature which points to a growing number of
discriminating consumers moving towards farm fresh and organic produce.  I
know that David Foot in Boom, Bust and Echo has indicated that the boomer
population is exhibiting more discriminating consumer behaviour about food
safety and freshness.  I have also seen reports citing a new revival of
consumer farmer relationships.

Any help would be appreciated.

Best regards,

Gord Hawkes
Log Cabin Orchard
Osgoode Ontario Canada, eh! 



From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Fri Feb 04 22:39:55 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: Re: TV: ABC's 20/20 show tonight - The Safety of Organic Produce (fwd)
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 21:39:58 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
Reply-To: lflondon@mindspring.com
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I'm watching it now. 10:40PM EST. 
Total waste of time. Some evil organization's crude
attempt to discredit organic farming. I wonder
what "agriculture department" the bearded creep
represented. Yet more garbage TV.
So much for Stossel's sleazy sideshow for the dumbed-down.

Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
metalab.unc.edu/market-farming Market Farming
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu



From grandad@grandadsfarm.com Fri Feb 04 22:47:32 2000
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Subject: Re: TV: ABC's 20/20 show tonight - The Safety of Organic Produce (fwd)
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http://abcnews.go.com/onair/2020/2020Index.html is the site
where you can follow some links to leave them a piece of your
mind
-- 
From mailto:grandad@grandadsfarm.com and 
the Home of Grandad's Farm Magazine 
in the beautiful suburbs of Columbia, Missouri
http://www.grandadsfarm.com/

From guldann@ix.netcom.com Fri Feb 04 22:58:04 2000
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From: "Hook Family" <guldann@ix.netcom.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98960-35980-2000.02.04-11.30.09--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: 20/20
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:02:35 -0800
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20/20 organic produce segment was simply Dennis Avery and his nonsense.
Very anti organic.  We are poisining everyone with E-Coli which was  found
on only 5 % of "all" produce tested with some higher consentration on
organic.  Basically just on sprouts and bag salad.
It was very one sided and the organic expert was a dud.  This was the line
that bugged me: Avery says its bad because of manure, announcer says most
organic farmers fertilize with compost (said the word compost) and its been
shown that raw manure on vegetables increase E-Coli, do we see an error
here. Avery mentions temperature (of compost) they don't even use
thermometers just throw it in a pile and then put in on garden.
More crap about conventional farmer saving land, because organics have to
use so much land because they loose so much produce to weeds!  Conventional
only way to save the world and land. If all production went organic wouldn't
be enough land.
The entire piece in my opinion was very unscientific they wanted to "prove"
organics were an expensive waste of money and not even good for you.  Who
paid them off is what I want to know. They said you can write to Stossel the
announcer at his web page, but I don't even know where to begin.  Its seem
like they researched nothing just let Avery speak.  Maybe they should do a
story on who Avery works for.  Beth


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From: "Hook Family" <guldann@ix.netcom.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <40634@market-farming> <LYR99119-36101-2000.02.04-22.39.54--grandad#grandadsfarm.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98960-36103-2000.02.04-22.47.32--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: TV: ABC's 20/20 show tonight - The Safety of Organic Produce (fwd)
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Hi again list, Well didn't take us long to vent did it. I am very annoyed.
Beth


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From: "Hook Family" <guldann@ix.netcom.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98960-35964-2000.02.04-10.32.31--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99013-35976-2000.02.04-11.15.47--cappy#harborside.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99119-36005-2000.02.04-13.14.39--grandad#grandadsfarm.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98960-36082-2000.02.04-19.21.07--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: My e-mail to 20/20
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:19:28 -0800
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This is what I wrote to 20/20
Your piece on organic food gets an F. It was very poorly researched and very
one sided.  You may want to dig a bit into the back ground of D. Avery and
see who he actually works for.
You may want to test the soil, air and water in the farm belt.  You may want
to learn the diffence between compost and manure!  You may have said that
even conventional farmers use manure compost.  You may want to read a set of
organic growing regulations. You might want to visit an organic farm.
An the bit about organic faming wasting land that was laughable.  Weeds can
be hand or machine weeded you don't have to just sray them, or plow up an
additonal field to compensate. Plus lets measure acres of most organic farm
vs conventional farms. Then calculate the pounds of vegetables produced per
acre. Next time do some research.  Beth


From grandad@grandadsfarm.com Fri Feb 04 23:19:01 2000
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References: <LYR98960-35980-2000.02.04-11.30.09--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99119-36104-2000.02.04-22.58.04--grandad#grandadsfarm.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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> Maybe they should do a
> story on who Avery works for.  Beth
	
	To look on the positive side, we have the chemical businesses
scared, we must be doing something right.  First they tried to
redefine organic and found out how many organic growers there
are out here and had to retreat, they tried Genetic engineering
and found to much resistance, so now they are trying the media
to discredit us.  WE must be on the right track.
	I would never have thought that Stossel would betray the
american consumer this way though.  I wonder who he is going to
be buying his organic produce from now?
-- 
From mailto:grandad@grandadsfarm.com and 
the Home of Grandad's Farm Magazine 
in the beautiful suburbs of Columbia, Missouri
http://www.grandadsfarm.com/

From evanshom@htonline.htonline.com Fri Feb 04 23:19:36 2000
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From: "K & G" <evanshom@htonline.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: ag books
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:13:03 -0800
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Speaking of books, for someone new to your industry,
what (in your opinions) are some of the "must reads" and
others that are useful?

Thanks,
Kelly


From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Fri Feb 04 23:20:06 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: Re: 20/20
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 22:20:06 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
Reply-To: lflondon@mindspring.com
Message-ID: <ff5n9s04iou12006drjbpf7lo7o5c9k6vv@4ax.com>
References: <LYR98960-35980-2000.02.04-11.30.09--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <40661@market-farming>
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On Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:02:35 -0800, "Hook Family"
<guldann@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>
>20/20 organic produce segment was simply Dennis Avery and his nonsense.
Was the bearded creep Avery? 
Best that ABC network lose its FCC license and be replaced by
nationally networked community televion ....... every town, city,
county, state all represented by volunteer citizens' productions
serving the needs of the American public.


Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
metalab.unc.edu/market-farming Market Farming
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu



From mjb@premier1.net Fri Feb 04 23:25:48 2000
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From: "Michaele Blakely" <mjb@premier1.net>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98946-36031-2000.02.04-15.18.02--mjb#premier1.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: My research...(was Re: Orchards and fruit trees)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 20:33:05 -0800
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----- Original Message -----
From: Suzy Roth <suzyr@netos.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 12:12 PM
Subject: Re: My research...(was Re: Orchards and fruit trees)


> >I will be planting other fruit - strawberries, blackberries, blueberries,
> but not in the "orchard".
>
> I wouldn't dismiss planting a variety of crops around your fruit
> trees. On my trip to Italy last fall I was struck by the mix of crops
> in the Italian countryside. Grapes and olive trees grew in rows side
> by side with the family garden growing down the middle of a few wide
> rows.

I have berries and grapes planted around the perimeter of an orchard I
started last year and am planning on putting my greens crops between the
trees.  I had broiler chickens there last year getting things readied.  I
had forgotten until Suzy showed me pictures of the gardens in Italy that
when I was a child my family planted lettuce and like vegetables in the
shade of the orchards during the summer.  This was in the foothills of the
Sierras and while here in the maritime northwest I don't have to worry about
heat I do want to utilize space.

Michaele
Growing Things
Carnation WA


From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Fri Feb 04 23:27:24 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: Re: ag books
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 22:27:30 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
Reply-To: lflondon@mindspring.com
Message-ID: <jr5n9scvmi0l0l28ir5acbiqiltef1firm@4ax.com>
References: <40667@market-farming>
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On Fri, 4 Feb 2000 23:13:03 -0800, "K & G" <evanshom@htonline.com>
wrote:

>Speaking of books, for someone new to your industry,
>what (in your opinions) are some of the "must reads" and
>others that are useful?

You will find extensive bibliographic references in:
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm/literature
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm/literature/new
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm/permaculture/literature
http://metalab.unc.edu/london/Bibliographic-References-At-InterGarden

This would be a good one to look at first - and download:
http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture/documents/permaculture-bibliography-1.txt

http://metalab.unc.edu/permaculture/documents/PAWA-Permaculture-Booklist

Many, many books listed at these URLs.

LL
Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
metalab.unc.edu/market-farming Market Farming
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu



From pike@always-online.com Sat Feb 05 00:18:29 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 0:18:23
Subject: Who the hell allowed that woman to be spokesperson for the OTA????
To: market-farming
From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>


Her resignation should be called for-tonight!!  What a !@#$% disservice she 
did to the organic community.  Is she really that incompetent?? Who did she 
think she worked for?  Did she not know this interview was coming?  Did she 
not take one second to learn her own organizations's material??
I'm out of town & my 12 year old daughter called as soon as it was over to 
ask if it  was true!!!  God, I am so @#$%^ p___sed!!!

Liz

From pike@always-online.com Sat Feb 05 00:22:05 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 0:22:3
Subject: Re: 20/20
To: market-farming
From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>


I hope he eats a nice large quantity of that contaminated produce they 
tested.


Liz 

From pike@always-online.com Sat Feb 05 00:36:32 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 0:36:30
Subject: Re: My e-mail to 20/20
To: market-farming
From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>


It's not worth the trouble.  They had their mind made up before the segment 
was ever filmed.

Liz

From pike@always-online.com Sat Feb 05 00:41:34 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 0:41:28
Subject: Re: Demographics (fwd)
To: market-farming
From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>


Gord, I have some excellent documentation of this-unfortunately it is at 
home on my computer & I won't be home until tomorrow evening.  As soon as I 
can I will forward it to you.  I've been doing research on farmers' 
markets, too, & I'll go through my other info to see if there's anything 
relevant to your study.

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville  NC 

From pike@always-online.com Sat Feb 05 00:43:55 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 0:43:44
Subject: Re: Demographics (fwd)
To: market-farming
From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>


Sorry-I should have posted the above to Gord directly.  (Didn't realize it 
was a forward-sorry!

Liz

From ripley@iglou.com Sat Feb 05 00:58:17 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: "Dawn M. Ripley" <ripley@iglou.com>
Subject: Re: Demographics (fwd)


At 12:41 AM 02/05/2000, you wrote:
>Gord, I have some excellent documentation of this-unfortunately it is at 
>home on my computer & I won't be home until tomorrow evening.  As soon as I 
>can I will forward it to you.  I've been doing research on farmers' 
>markets, too, & I'll go through my other info to see if there's anything 
>relevant to your study.
>


Hey, Liz--

Would you mind posting it to the entire list?  I'm interested, and I suspect
others may be as well, especially in light of tonight's TV nonsense.

Just a thought.

Dawn




******************************

Dawn M. Ripley
Holdfast Farm
5561 Budd Road
New Albany, Indiana  47150-9109
(812) 949-9008					

ripley@iglou.com
www.members.iglou.com/ripley


From pike@always-online.com Sat Feb 05 07:04:44 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 7:4:42
Subject: Re: Demographics (fwd)
To: market-farming
From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>


Dawn asked me to post the research I've done.  Will do!

Liz

From pike@always-online.com Sat Feb 05 07:14:33 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 7:14:24
Subject: Re: polystyrene seed flats with legs
To: market-farming
From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>


I bypassed the speedling booths yesterday at the farm show (can you believe 
they are making these things disposable now??)  I picked up a flyer for 
future reference.  The manufacturer might make the ones of which you asked, 
though in all honesty manufacturers here aren't quick to pick up on 
European innovation.  Here's the information just in case:

Speedling Incorporated
Sun City, FL
813-645-3261

Hort1si@ix.netcom.com


Good luck!

Liz

From pike@always-online.com Sat Feb 05 08:28:27 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 8:28:23
Subject: My customers are upset!!!!!
To: market-farming
From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>


I've already received 10 emails from customers inquiring about the tabloid 
smut shown on 20/20.  Thank God they came to me to ask for further 
enlightenment.  I've ordered the transcript from the show for proof that   
John Stossel said 5% OF ALL PRODUCE SHOWED PATHOGENS-not just organic. 
Thought y'all might want to do this also.  Geez, I really feel like the 
statue today.  (You know the saying, Some days you're the pigeon, some days 
you're the statue.)

My next post will be from my own computer!  YEAH!

Liz 

From rbfarr@erols.com Sat Feb 05 08:37:31 2000
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After smoking, you MUST perform a "surgical scrub".  Wash your hands,
arms, etc. a couple times, then scrub with rubbing alcohol.

And change your clothes before entering the garden!

I speak, unfortunately, from experience...

Robert.



From soberle@bwn.net Sat Feb 05 09:21:38 2000
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"Dawn M. Ripley" wrote:

> At 12:41 AM 02/05/2000, you wrote:
> >Gord, I have some excellent documentation of this-unfortunately it is at
> >home on my computer & I won't be home until tomorrow evening.  As soon as I
> >can I will forward it to you.  I've been doing research on farmers'
> >markets, too, & I'll go through my other info to see if there's anything
> >relevant to your study.
> >

Please, either post to the list or send me the links too!!

>
>
> ******************************
>
> Dawn M. Ripley
> Holdfast Farm
> 5561 Budd Road
> New Albany, Indiana  47150-9109
> (812) 949-9008
>
> ripley@iglou.com
> www.members.iglou.com/ripley
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: soberle@bwn.net
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')

--
***********************
Sue Oberle
Oberle Botanical
Fort Collins, Colorado
email: soberle@bwn.net
voice: (970)493-5672
fax:   (970)493-3358
***********************



From fullcircle@jps.net Sat Feb 05 09:23:49 2000
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 .unc.edu>
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Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 06:23:03 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: ABC's 20/20 , Replies, Avery, Sanet


For those of you wishing to send a researched and considered reply - and I
urge you to do so - let me point you to the Sanet archives.  Some
unsubstatiated crap flows from Avery at a high enough level to touch off a
firestorm on Sanet at least annually.

Also, there has been a recent thread on nutritional differences in organic
food, but be careful to read the entire thread.  There's some
misinformation out there.  Look carefully at the older USDA data vs the
newer showing a decline in the nutrition in conventionally produced food.

I suggest an archive search on the following words - Avery, Hudson
Institute, organic safety, nutrition in organic, manure (the critter kind,
not the Avery kind)  You will find answers to virtually all your questions,
and support for your positions.

Sanet archives are to be found at:
http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail


From Grandad -Snip
>http://abcnews.go.com/onair/2020/2020Index.html is the site
>where you can follow some links to leave them a piece of your
>mind
>-- snip


Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From dorigreen00@hotmail.com Sat Feb 05 09:41:29 2000
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From: "Dori Green" <dorigreen00@hotmail.com>
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Internet Marketing
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 09:41:47 EST
Mime-Version: 1.0
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http://www.pe.net/~rksnow/

I get no refunds, discounts, or other kickbacks for this mention.

I'm signing up with them for a banner ad on their Rochester NY region.  
Rochester has more than a million people who eat.  The region includes 
Corning.  The two are separated by 125 miles but connected by a 65-mph 
expressway.

Will let y'all know if this is successful for me.


Dori Green
Ash Grove Community Farm
Corning, NY

http://www.ic.org/agrove

Intentional Community with local and long-distance members
Chemical-free fruits, vegetables, herbs, and flowers
Dairy and pack and draft goats
Free-range chickens, ducks, and geese (watch where you step)
Affordable housing cooperative
Organic garden cooperative (CSA)
Organic gardening supplies buying club
Food bank garden
Local small-farm meat buying club
Regional farmer's marketing cooperative
Partnerships
Dried herbs and American-grown Black Tea by mail-order

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From sojournr@missouri.org Sat Feb 05 09:53:52 2000
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Elizabeth Pike wrote:
> 
> It's not worth the trouble.  They had their mind made up before the segment
> was ever filmed.

Television runs on money.  It's "customer base" is the advertisers.  The
advertisers customer base is us.  If we get upset and make enough noise
then the advertisers get upset too.

E-mail Stossel.  Had I known that his stupid web page would wipe my
e-mail after I sent it I'd have copied it before I hit that send
button.  E-maill Stossel, e-mail ABC, and if anybody has a list of the
show's producers and advertisers, let's e-mail them too.  Don't settle
for just e-mail either, SNAIL MAIL 'em.

Write letters to the editor to your local papers.  Go to 

http://www.ota.org

and check out the News section, there's an article there listing Avery's
lies, when and where they were printed.  For instance, he has claimed
the CDC had done comparative studies between organic and "regular"
produce that showed high contamination levels for the organic stuff. 
The CDC had to issue a statement saying that no such studies had ever
been done after Avery's lies were published in the Wall Street Journal. 
(Not a rag highly noted for its agricultural slant).

I can't decide if the man is a frothing-at-the-mouth loony who actually
believes the crap he writes, or if he's just an unethical smarmy bastard
who has gone where the money is.  Whatever, fear sells.  Sex sells
better, but they could  hardly put a sexual slant on organic farming (at
least not one *I'd* want to know about).  So fear will do.  That's all
this thing was, and that's all Avery does - fear mongering and the
spreading of disinformation.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From dorigreen00@hotmail.com Sat Feb 05 10:18:10 2000
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From: "Dori Green" <dorigreen00@hotmail.com>
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: 20/20
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 10:18:28 EST
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I took the time to post a message on 20/20's board.

Gee, let's foster some more ignorance and put some more small farms out of 
business.

My message started:

"I know who bought Dennis Avery.

Who bought you, John Stossel?"

In a strange way, I am very much encouraged by this.

We are making an impact.  For long and long, the Big Guys haven't bothered 
to swat at us.  We must stand fast, and stand together!

WE SHALL OVERCOME!


Dori Green
Ash Grove Community Farm
Corning, NY

http://www.ic.org/agrove

Intentional Community with local and long-distance members
Chemical-free fruits, vegetables, herbs, and flowers
Dairy and pack and draft goats
Free-range chickens, ducks, and geese (watch where you step)
Affordable housing cooperative
Regional farmer's marketing cooperative
Partnerships
Dried herbs and American-grown Black Tea by mail-order

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From sojournr@missouri.org Sat Feb 05 10:18:23 2000
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References: <LYR99136-36150-2000.02.05-00.36.31--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99136-36194-2000.02.05-09.53.48--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Sojourner wrote:
> 
> http://www.ota.org

AAARG!  The correct URL is

http://www.ota.com

Sorry!

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From kampy@netins.net Sat Feb 05 10:39:20 2000
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Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 09:38:53 -0600
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I wonder just who is this Avery?  I believe it was said he formerly worked
for the USDA.  I really never heard of him before. My guess is he works for
Monsanto.

Anyway, I have lived on earth long enough (this lifetime) to learn that
something good really does come out of everything.  The trick is to find
it.  So, for me, I probably will become better educated about the studies
done on organic food vs "regular".  Then if someone asks, I won't have the
"deer in the headlights" look that the Organic Association's president had.
 But, one has to consider that the 20/20 program is cut and pasted and what
she said may have been out of context.  For the organic community
worldwide, I  feel in some way this will unite us into a tighter knit, more
powerful entity than ever.  I don't think the program will accomplish what
the gene fiddlers and chemical people had hoped.  In fact, I think they've
"manured" in their nest.  I wish I could remember who the advertisers were
during that segment.

Marie in Missouri


From creech5@mail.tds.net Sat Feb 05 10:40:26 2000
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Hi,

   I have aphids in the greenhouse. My dad brought in affected plants.
ANyone have a GOOD recipe for an organic spray? 
TIA,
Penny

From cgrowers@guppy.pond.net Sat Feb 05 11:03:19 2000
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Subject: Aphids in the greenhouse
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 00 08:14:03 -0800
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In a heated greenhouse, the safest treatment is probably the release of 
ladybugs. Unfortunately, you may have a hard time sourcing them this time 
of year. In the field we use Safer's Soap for aphid control, mainly on 
brassicas. I combine the Soap with liquid fish/kelp as a foliar feed. If 
it's only a couple plants, you can put the soap in a hand-held spray 
bottle and apply it easily to those plants. The soap will only effect 
those aphids that it coats, so application must be thorough. If it's only 
a couple plants, and they only just arrived, you can also wipe them off 
with your fingers. Cotton swabs with alcohol may do the same - works well 
for mealybugs & scale.

Aaron

Creative Growers
Aaron Silverman
88741 Torrence Rd.
Noti, Or. 97461
cgrowers@pond.net
Quality Produce & Pastured Poultry


From lh@pressroom.com Sat Feb 05 11:16:34 2000
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Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 11:16:44 -0500
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: Leigh Hauter <lh@pressroom.com>
Subject: avery


here's a bio of Mr. Avery


http://www.connectotel.com/gmfood/gmfaec.html

From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Sat Feb 05 11:21:58 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: Re: ABC's 20/20 , Replies, Avery, Sanet
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 10:21:51 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
Reply-To: lflondon@mindspring.com
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References: <40634@market-farming> <LYR99119-36101-2000.02.04-22.39.54--grandad#grandadsfarm.com@franklin.oit .unc.edu> <40700@market-farming>
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On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 06:23:03 -0800, Marcie Rosenzweig
<fullcircle@jps.net> wrote:

>For those of you wishing to send a researched and considered reply - and I

I have a lot of the sanet-mg threads archived in their entirety at
this URL:
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/issues-and-news/issues
see also:
http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/issues-and-news/news

The nutritional value of organically grown foods is in there as is
a multitude of definitions of sustainable agriculture
Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
metalab.unc.edu/market-farming Market Farming
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu



From cgrowers@guppy.pond.net Sat Feb 05 11:26:23 2000
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Subject: Dennis Avery
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 00 08:37:12 -0800
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I did not see the "article" last night. However, after cruising through 
the list's venting and checking out abc's discussion site, several themes 
are apparent:

1) Use of either raw manure or bio-sludge on Organic crops was mentioned. 
As WE all know, not only is this either regulated by certifiers or 
outright disallowed, but use of bio-sludge was one of the points 
generating the huge outcry to the preliminary Standards published by the 
USDA last year. Rebuttals to the show will be more effective if focused 
on points such as this.

2) Dennis Avery: While I did not see the show, I am very familiar with 
this unsavory character. Unfortunately, he is not a crackpot, is VERY 
intelligent and has a wonderful command of his statistics. In fact, much 
of what he says makes sense - regardless of whether you support his 
conclusion. His latest book is "Saving the World through Pesticides & 
Plastics," a well written treatise on the savior of agricultural 
technology. While his research is blind to the workings of Organics and 
the faults of Conventional ag, some of what he writes has truth. How many 
of the commercial growers on the list utilize plastic mulches of one sort 
or another? In western Oregon, where summer temps regularly dip to the 
high 40s at night, many of our crops wouldn't be worth growing without 
IRT film, or assisted by tunnels or floating row covers. We irrigate with 
T-tape - 100% plastic product that ends up in the landfill eventually. 
Current organics is just as high-tech as conventionals, even while many 
of the smaller producers practice "exclusion" methods (just not doing 
anything). The Hudson Institute is a Conservative think tank based in 
Indiana, focused on agricultural issues. Yes, much of their funding comes 
from the big ag companies. Many of their statements and published 
treatises have unsubstantiated statements and conclusions. Their 
effectiveness is in their ability to publish, and have media connections 
that allow them to have their positions distributed to mass audiences.

3) This show illustrates the impetus for the current formulation of 
National Organic Standards. Remember that the legislation calling for the 
USDA to oversee these standards was brought about by FARMERS. They 
recognized that the acceptance of Organics by the larger marketplace 
would be stymied if certification never developed beyond the current 
quilt structure. Regardless of my personal feelings towards 
certification, Avery's effectiveness and the apparent bias of the show 
demonstrate the vulnerability the Organic industry faces without USDA 
sanctioned standards.

Aaron

Creative Growers
Aaron Silverman
88741 Torrence Rd.
Noti, Or. 97461
cgrowers@pond.net
Quality Produce & Pastured Poultry


From flowers@rt66.com Sat Feb 05 11:42:40 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: Aphids in the greenhouse


>try www.arbico.com

a number of aphid predators are now available that work well in addition to
lady bugs
and in fact lady bugs prefer the top of the leaf surface rather than the
under side of the leaf prefered by the aphid the do eat a bunch anyway so
they are valuble   the aphid predators are very effective also if you have
aphids you likely willhave white fly so look at encarsia to control them

martin

Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow

5059898337 office
5057578337 farm april/november
5059203421 cell



From doodles@netins.net Sat Feb 05 12:23:36 2000
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From Judy Kew (Ban-GEF):
----
Whitley Strieber will be hosting Martin Teitel, PhD
on Art Bell's Dreamland show Sunday night 2/6/2000,
according to http://www.artbell.com

Perhaps some of us will be able to call in, 9p-12m EST.
All can listen in via Real Audio-- see the link on the Art Bell site. I
guess that would be 0200 2/2 Zulu (UCT)

He co-authored the book
Genetically Engineered Food: Changing the Nature of Nature

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0892818883/artbell00/104-7514259-2767
610

and the book Rain Forest in Your Kitchen : The Hidden Connection Between
Extinction and Your Supermarket
----
For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the Ban-GEF list,
send email to Ban-GEF@lists.txinfinet.com with HELP in the SUBJECT line.
----

From blevy@rsocsun.tamu.edu Sat Feb 05 12:24:48 2000
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References: <LYR99061-35821-2000.02.03-17.35.18--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98927-35863-2000.02.03-23.25.41--blevy#rsocsun.tamu.edu@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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I know prion articles have been cited in this thread, in case any of you haven't seen
some of the articles and are interested -

Rare, animal-borne disease a medical mystery

Officials examine Maine deer in hunt for clues

By Terry J. Allen - Boston Globe Correspondent

New England is entwined in a medical mystery that stretches across species and
the country. The clues raise more questions than answers: Three young people,
one with links to Maine, have contracted an extremely rare, infectious disease
that leads to dementia and death. A strikingly similar disease is killing
thousands of deer and elk in the western United States. Elk farms in New
England, which cater to an Asian market for aphrodisiacs, are importing
animals that officials warn could spread the infection.

And in the background looms the specter of mad cow disease, the British
epidemic responsible for the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of cattle, the
devastation of the British beef industry, and the death, so far, of more than
40 people.

Researchers are struggling to determine if these factors are part of the same
trail of evidence or if they are connected only by coincidence and fear.

Either way, there is no denying that federal researchers are worried. How else
to explain why a US Department of Agriculture official came to Maine last
month to supervise a ''harvest'' of 299 heads from deer shot during the fall
hunting season? ''They used a fancy spoon to scoop out a portion near the
brain stem for analysis,'' said Mark Caron, a Maine wildlife biologist.

The reasoning behind the examination of deer brains? One of the young victims
of the rare disease who lived in the South had, years before her death, eaten
meat from deer her father had shot in Maine.

The Maine samples are part of a nationwide investigation into a family of
diseases called transmissible spongiform encephalopathies, or TSE, that do
similar damage to the brains of different mammals deer, elk, sheep, cattle,
cats, mink, and humans. But they are subtly different illnesses. And until mad
cow disease the bovine TSE hit Britain and apparently spread to people who ate
infected beef, most scientists believed TSEs did not jump from one species to
another.

The possibility that Chronic Wasting Disease, the TSE that affects deer and
elk has made the leap to humans is what had federal researchers concerned
enough to survey Maine.

The 28-year-old woman who ate Maine deer died of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease,
the human TSE. There are only five reported Creutzfeldt-Jakob cases per
billion worldwide in people 30 years old or under, according to Lawrence
Schonberger of the federal Centers for Disease Control.

Yet, since 1996, Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease has been detected in three
Americans in that age group; two are dead and one is dying. All three, it
turns out, had hunted extensively or eaten venison.

''It may be a coincidence,'' said Dr. Pierluigi Gambetti, professor of
pathology and director of the National Prion Disease Pathology Surveillance
Center at Case Western University in Cleveland, where the Centers for Disease
Control sends its human brain samples. ''It would be imprudent to say there is
a danger of an epidemic. But, yes, it's something that has to be studied.''

Said Thomas Pringle, a biochemist who runs a Web site on TSEs: ''What has CDC
worried is that the original tipoff in Britain that something was wrong was
the upsurge in cases of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease in young people.''

The CDC medical epidemiologist, Ermias Belay, citing a Red Cross survey,
emphasized that since 40 percent of Americans have eaten wild venison at least
once, the three cases could be explained by chance alone. ''If there had been
one more,'' he said, ''it might tip the balance.''

But, countered Michael Hansen, a research associate at Consumer's Union,
''Given how rare the disease is in young people and how difficult it is to
make a diagnosis, the possibility that some cases go undetected cannot be
ruled out.'' That is what nearly happened last year in Utah to Tracie McEwan.
The young wife and mother of two watched desperately as, over a few months,
her 28-year-old husband, Doug, lost motor control and memory, became
disoriented, and suffered dramatic mood swings.

''After doctors performed hundreds of tests,'' Tracie recalled, ''I saw a
television show about mad cow disease.'' She demanded the doctors test for
Creutzfeld-tJakob disease. A brain biopsy confirmed her fears.

''We have decided to get pretty aggressive, primarily because of the situation
in Britain,'' said the CDC's Schonberger. He emphasized, however, that ''none
of the three cases has been linked to chronic wasting disease in deer and elk.

While the threat to humans remains theoretical, the danger of the disease
within deer and elk populations is real and growing. ''It's been spreading
slowly since it was first found in the wild in 1981,'' said Beth Williams, a
professor of veterinary services with the University of Wyoming. Chronic
wasting disease is now a major problem in Colorado and Wyoming, infecting 4 to
8 percent of the 62,000 deer there and 1 percent of elk, she said.

In states other than Wyoming and Colorado, tests on 4,500 seemingly healthy
wild animals have found no evidence of disease, but that sampling does not
fully allay scientists' concerns. TSEs are caused by prions, a puzzling
protein-like substance that is extremely difficult to detect or kill. Prions
can remain infectious on correctly sterilized surgical instruments and have
been transmitted through corneal transplants, growth hormones, and meat that
has been thoroughly cooked.

They are also apparently passed among deer and elk by routine kinds of
contact. Outbreaks of chronic wasting disease have spread among farmed elk not
only in Colorado and Wyoming, but in other parts of the West, forcing the
destruction of herds and the quarantining of farms. Montana saw its first
confirmed case last month.

So far New England appears to be free of the disease, but the chance of
infection rises with the number of western elk shipped east to supply the
region's growing elk farming industry. The animals are prized for the velvet
on their antlers, believed in some parts of Asia to be aphrodisiacs.

''Elk farming is the recipe for introducing CWD into areas where it has not
existed before,'' said Dr. Victor Nettles, director of the Southeastern
Cooperative Wildlife Disease Study, referring to chronic wasting disease.

''We are at the extremely initial stage of awareness and monitoring,'' warned
Robert Deblinger, assistant director of the Massachusetts Wildlife Division.
''But states need to be aggressive. It's only going to get worse, so it's
important to be vigilant. That is the only way you keep the diseases out.''

Of immediate concern to New England's wildlife managers is the health of
native deer, which support the region's multibilliondollar hunting industry.
Since there is a two- to five-year incubation period and no reliable test for
live animals, apparently healthy elk can harbor and spread the disease.

The elk-trading network is extensive and loosely regulated. Paperwork that
accompanies each elk to Vermont, for example, tells only where the animal was
bought, not where it was a year or even a month before. And if the herd it
passed through later has an outbreak of chronic wasting disease, there are no
procedures to trace exposed elk or issue warnings.

Vermont, Maine, and New Hampshire have not formally notified elk farmers to be
on the lookout for neurological symptoms, nor do they require reporting of
suspicious symptoms. In Vermont, when one of the state's 250 captive elk dies,
the owner may comply with a voluntary program for testing.

''From the standpoint of protecting wildlife,'' said Steve Weber, chief of New
Hampshire's Wildlife Division, ''a ban on elk farming is the prudent thing to
do, but when balanced against existing industry, there are tradeoffs you
make.'' New Hampshire has a handful of elk farms and a few hundred elk, Weber
estimated.

So far, Massachusetts is the only New England state to ban elk farming.
''Anytime you want to fence in a wild animal it's going to get out,'' warned
Robert Deblinger, assistant director of the Massachusetts Wildlife Division.
''We worry about interbreeding and genetic pollution as well as the
introduction of chronic wasting disease.''

That infected western elk can transmit TSE to native New England deer is
established science. The more troubling and as yet unsolved mystery is
whether, like its bovine counterpart, chronic wasting disease can, or has,
jumped species to infect humans.

http://www.headwatersnews.org/121499madcow.html
==========================================================

State uncertain how to dispose of game farm elk carcasses

By Duncan Adams - The Montana Standard

PHILIPSBURG, MT - One phone-poll wag said the dead elk should be spaceship
cargo.

"I say they should send the bodies to Mars, because that's where we've been
losing everything else," said the caller, in reference to NASA's ill-fated
Mars Polar Lander and companion probes.

Another participant in the poll conducted by a Great Falls newspaper suggested
burying a couple of the elk in Gov. Marc Racicot's front yard.

But, at this writing, the 81 dead elk stored in plastic-lined Dumpsters at the
David Kesler game farm near Philipsburg are akin to carcasses without a
country. State officials face a situation reminiscent of the infamous
wandering garbage barge that returned forlornly to anchor in New York Bay in
May 1987 after its cargo was rejected by six states and three countries.

Nobody wants the elk. Nobody wants them because they could be infected with
chronic wasting disease - a malady that is fatal to deer and elk and could
present a serious health risk to other species, including cattle and humans.
Chronic wasting disease, like "mad cow" disease in cattle or Creutzfeldt-Jakob
disease in humans, is a transmissible spongiform encephalopathy (TSE). The
TSEs produce tiny, sponge-like holes in the nerve cells of brain and upper
spinal cord tissue.

During an interview Friday, Dr. Arnold Gertonson, state veterinarian, shared
his frustration about finding a disposal method or site that is both
politically palatable and scientifically prudent.

"In the last few days, people have been saying, 'We don't want them here, we
don't want them there,'" Gertonson said. "But they're not telling me where
they want the elk or how they want them handled or at what cost."

Ultimately, the barge garbage was incinerated. Gertonson and other Department
of Livestock officials are considering a similar solution for the disposal of
the elk after many residents of Cascade County expressed opposition to burying
the animals in a landfill north of Great Falls. But incineration is expensive.
Gertonson said research suggests burial can be a safe and reasonable
alternative.

Livestock officials began killing the elk Dec. 7. They used a series of three
injections. The first contained a muscle relaxant; the second was analgesic;
and the third, containing potassium chloride, stopped the animal's heart.

"It was a very humane operation," said Tim Feldner, commercial wildlife
permitting program manager for the Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and
Parks. "The animals didn't feel a thing."

But strong feelings have been stirred among Montanans in recent weeks about
the state's handling of the Kesler herd, specifically, and about its response
more generally to the threat of chronic wasting disease.

Stan Frasier, past president of the Montana Wildlife Federation, said wildlife
advocates have warned state officials repeatedly that game farms could breed
disease.

"For years we've been trying to tell the Legislature and the livestock
industry that game farming is a disease threat. And they have completely
ignored us," Frasier said. "They have ignored or tried to downplay this
disease problem for years and now it's come back to bite them in the butt."

But Frasier and other wildlife federation officials - including John Kober,
director of field operations, and Craig Sharpe, interim director - said Friday
they find no satisfaction in being prophetic. The stakes are too high, Sharpe
said.

"If you look at our heritage and at the importance of wildlife to Montana, if
you look at the history of Montana and the role that wildlife plays here, the
stakes are substantial," Sharpe said.

Kober agreed. He said if chronic wasting disease is detected in big-game
populations, Montana's hunters will face potentially discomfiting decisions.

"If CWD gets into elk and deer populations, every Montanan should ask
themselves the questions: 'Will I go hunting? Is the risk worth the pursuit of
the sport and the sense of heritage that accompanies that pursuit?'" Kober
said. "My guess is that if every hunter has to ask themselves that question,
we're going to lose some hunters, we're going to lose some activists and some
advocacy."

Chronic wasting disease has been detected in wild deer and elk in northeastern
Colorado and southeastern Wyoming. In a September 1998 memo to Racicot, Pat
Graham, director of FWP, described precautions hunters in those states have
been advised to heed.

"Although there is no clear evidence that CWD affects people, Wyoming and
Colorado are recommending that hunters not shoot animals that look sick,"
Graham wrote. "They are further suggesting that hunters wear rubber gloves
when field dressing game; minimize contact with brain and spinal cord tissue
in areas where CWD is endemic; don't eat brains or spinal cord tissues; and
that they bone out the meat and discard the brain, spinal cord, eyes, spleen
and lymph nodes to minimize exposure."

But Dr. Bruce Chesebro, a researcher with years of experience studying
spongiform encephalopathies, scoffs at these precautions. At Chesebro's lab in
Hamilton researchers use autoclaves and lye to sterilize their instruments,
something he imagines hunters aren't likely to do with hunting knives.

Meanwhile, although no one can say for sure whether CWD spreads from game
farms to wild animals or from wildlife to "alternative livestock," the Kesler
experience has increased scrutiny of this unique livestock industry.

The Department of Livestock decided to "depopulate" the Kesler herd after an
elk that died in October was later diagnosed with CWD. The Kesler game farm
had been under quarantine since June 1998 after a dead elk at an Oklahoma game
farm was diagnosed with CWD. Officials believed that elk had been transported
to Oklahoma from the Kesler farm. A second elk, also traced to the Kesler farm
and similarly posthumously diagnosed with CWD, died in June 1999 in Oklahoma.

Elk from the Kesler farm also have been shipped elsewhere.

"Some went to (a game farm in) Hardin," Gertonson said. "Some went to
Oklahoma. And one animal went to Missouri and is now located in a game farm in
Iowa."

The Great Falls Tribune reported Saturday that the state is considering
slaughtering the Hardin herd because of its potential exposure to chronic
wasting disease. Kober said the Montana Wildlife Federation is concerned about
the whereabouts of other animals that might have come from the Kesler herd.

"We know this has been a closed herd since 1990. But where did Kesler sell
animals prior to 1990?" Kober asked. "How many other game farms in this state
have Kesler animals? We want the Department of Livestock to answer that
question, and we haven't heard anything back yet."

The Kesler family has not responded to requests for interviews. On Saturday,
when a reporter telephoned the Kesler home, a man who described himself as
David Kesler's son said his father wasn't home and then hung up.

Graham, too, acknowledged that the stakes are high for Montana's wildlife and
sportsmen when the potential threat of chronic wasting disease is considered.

"A disease like CWD is certainly more troubling than some of the other
problems we've had to address simply because of the difficulty to detect it,
the lack of knowledge about how it is transmitted, and all the other
uncertainties about the disease," he said.

Fish, Wildlife and Parks will continue to monitor game farms, he said, and to
evaluate safeguards designed to lessen the risk of disease transmission from
captive animals to wildlife.

"If we decide the safeguards aren't adequate then, in my opinion, we'll have
to do what is necessary. Because I don't believe the public is going to
tolerate a diminishment of their wildlife populations as a result of something
like this," he said.
------------------

Disease in game farm elk spotlights contentious issues

By Duncan Adams - The Montana Standard

HELENA - The detection early last month of chronic wasting disease in a dead
game-farm elk in Montana has dumped a sack load of logistical and political
hot potatoes in the laps of state officials.

The contentious issues include debate about how the animal's herd should be
slaughtered and about what to do with the potentially infectious carcasses.
The crisis at the David Kesler game farm near Philipsburg also has provided
fresh ammunition for ongoing skirmishes about Montana's game farm industry.

And then there's the money involved - both for the slaughter and cleanup
operation and the reimbursement of the animals' owner for their "taking" by
the state.

On Friday, state veterinarian Dr. Arnold Gertonson estimated the work to date
at the Kesler farm - where 81 elk carcasses remain stored in plastic-lined
Dumpsters - has cost approximately $10,000. That figure will increase once the
state decides how to dispose of the carcasses. If the state elects
incineration, costs could approach $80,000, said Gertonson.

Gertonson said the Department of Livestock will pay for the slaughter and
related cleanup at the farm. And because the department is funded in large
part by per capita head taxes on livestock, "livestock producers end up
footing most of the bill here," he said.

The Department of Livestock also will pay $50 per elk to the Keslers to
reimburse them for their slaughtered herd.

"In this country, we do not take private property without due compensation,"
he said. "You have to provide at least some compensation."

Instead of agreeing to the destruction of their elk herd, the Keslers, by law,
could have opted for a four-year quarantine, Gertonson said. And they will end
up settling for a lot less than the market value of the animals, he said.
According to Gertonson, cow elk can fetch $4,000; a bull elk can sell for
$1,000 and a calf for $700.

The Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks has offered to pitch in an
additional $50 an elk. And Gertonson said the Montana Alternative Livestock
Producers organization has pledged another $50 a head and that the North
American Elk Breeders "told me they thought they could contribute $350 per
elk."

The Montana Wildlife Federation has criticized FWP's decision to chip in for
the elk. Pat Graham, director of FWP, has responded that the contribution
helped ensure the herd's destruction - an outcome he said he believes helps
safeguard the state's wildlife.

"There was a fork in the road when the operator had to choose, and I wanted
him to choose the fork that led to the destruction of those animals," said
Graham. "I felt it was in the best interests of the wildlife populations and,
frankly, of the sportsmen in Montana to eliminate that source of disease
completely. Even though a quarantine, in theory, would isolate the disease,
there are just too many uncertainties about CWD."

Graham described the $50 from FWP "as a token amount, really."

But Craig Sharpe, interim director of the Montana Wildlife Federation, and
Josh Turner, MWF president, have both said the spending of sportsmen's dollars
on game-farm animals is a bitter pill to swallow.

"We understand Pat's reasoning of trying to get the animals destroyed with
some immediacy," said Sharpe. "But we don't feel sportsmen's dollars should be
used to pay for these animals and we will stick to that to the end."

John Kober, MWF's director of field operations, said he disagreed with
Gertonson's suggestion early this week that Kesler's decision to allow the
state to slaughter his herd was a sacrifice that deserves recognition.

"Dr. Gertonson talks about David Kesler as being some sort of hero for
offering up these animals to be destroyed," said Kober. "The reality is,
Kesler had a history of problems (including an earlier herd quarantine for
tuberculosis) on that game farm. And these animals aren't worth a red cent."

Kesler could not be reached for comment.

Kober also argued that the state has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars
near Yellowstone National Park fighting the spread of brucellosis by bison,
but seems unwilling to spend what it takes to deal appropriately with the
Kesler herd's disposal.

"They spare no cost in the treatment and eradication of brucellosis, yet they
try to spare every cost in the treatment of chronic wasting disease. There's a
big double standard here," Kober said.

Gertonson reported that the state spent more than $300,000 last fiscal year on
bison control. But he scoffed at Kober's suggestion of a double standard.

"I find that difficult to understand," he said. "In this (Kesler) herd, we had
one animal positive (for CWD) and this herd has been entirely depopulated. If
anything, we're being tougher on this issue than we are on brucellosis."

http://www.billingsgazette.com/ - 12/14/99



From mpap@msn.com Sat Feb 05 12:37:04 2000
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	 Sat, 5 Feb 2000 09:37:19 -0800
From: "Michael" <mpap@msn.com>
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Subject: Re: Help! Ahpids in the greenhouse
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 12:31:14 -0500
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Planet Natural has lady beetles (I just released 10, 000 in my greenhouse
last week to feast on aphids) as well as other beneficials including
lacewings and Trichogramma wasp. They are in Bozeman, MT and can be reached
at 800 289 6656.

I post this for information purposes only. I have no affiliation with
Planet Natural other than as a customer.

Regards to all

Michael Pappas
Eco Farms, Lanham, MD


From doodles@netins.net Sat Feb 05 12:41:40 2000
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Subject: AVERY: New York Times exposes Dennis Avery
From: "Ericka & Rich Dana" <doodles@netins.net>
To: JCNews <jcnews@yosemite.leepfrog.com>,
        Market Farming List <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>,
        orGANicgrowing@egroups.com
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Forgive this long post, but for the folks who don't have time to research or
go to websites, you can forward this copy directly to friends who might be
concerned after watching the heavy spin on 20/20 last night.
Ericka Dana, Catnip Farm
--The Mighty Oak was once a little nut that held its ground.

------------------------------------
NY Times Exposes "Anti-Organic" Propagandist Dennis Avery
February 17, 1999 The New York Times
------------------------------------
EATING WELL
Anti-Organic, and Flawed

By MARIAN BURROS

Dennis T. Avery wants organic food to go
away. And he doesn't
care what it takes. Four years ago, he said
that organic food
could not feed the world without destroying the
environment. Now, he
says it's lethal.

In an article in the fall issue of American
Outlook magazine, published
by his employer, the Hudson Institute, a
conservative research group,
Avery wrote, "Organic foods have clearly become
the deadliest food
choice." This is the case, he said, because
organic farms use animal
manure and do not use chemicals or permit
pasteurization. The last
assertion is untrue, as were several other
statements in the article.

The accusation might have gone unnoticed, but
excerpts from the article
were published in The Wall Street Journal and
continue to be picked up
around the country, by The Associated Press, The
Tampa Tribune and
trade industry publications.

The simplest definition of "organic" is food grown
without hormones,
pesticides or synthetic fertilizers. Avery,
however, used the terms
"organic," "free-range," "natural" and
"unpasteurized" interchangeably.

"I grant you that I've mixed together natural and
organic," Avery, the
author of "Saving the Planet With Pesticides and
Plastic" (Hudson
Institute, 1995), said in an interview last week.
"But to me they are
distinctions without significant difference in
terms of public health."

His most combative accusation is based, he said,
on 1996 data
compiled by the Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention, showing
that "people who eat organic and 'natural' foods
are eight times as likely
as the rest of the population to be attacked by a
deadly new strain of E.
coli bacteria (O157:H7)."

Yet some of the foods that caused the outbreak,
which he called
organic, were not, like unpasteurized Odwalla
apple juice.

Avery's claim that "consumers of organic food are
also more likely to
be attacked by a relatively new, more virulent
strain of the infamous
salmonella bacteria" was based on a Consumers
Union study in 1998
showing that "premium" chickens had higher levels
of salmonella than
regular supermarket chickens. But the premium
chickens were not
organic.

In the article, Avery took the Food and Drug
Administration to task for
failing "to issue any warnings to consumers about
the higher levels of
natural toxins their researchers regularly find in
organic foods." In the
interview, he said that that assertion was based
on a statement by Dr.
Robert Lake, an official in the agency's Center
for Food Safety and
Nutrition.

Lake denied making such a statement, saying, "We
don't go out of our
way to sample organic food, and hence I don't
think we are in a
position to say anything one way or another about
it."

Avery wrote that because "organic farmers use
animal manure as the
major source of fertilizer," there are higher
levels of harmful bacteria in
organic food. Katherine DiMatteo, the executive
director of the
Organic Trade Association, said that manure is not
the major source of
fertilizer on organic farms (it is also used in
conventional farming) and
that, when it is used, certain rules must be
followed for safety.

Avery said he had never "bothered that much about
consumer safety
aspects of organic food until O157:H7." His real
goal, he said, is to
prevent organic agriculture from becoming the
norm. "My big concern is
that we do not have room on the planet to feed
ourselves organically,"
he said.

The attack on organic food by a well-financed
research organization
suggests that, even though organic food accounts
for only 1 percent of
food sales in the country, the conventional food
industry is worried.


From KWallie@aol.com Sat Feb 05 14:43:46 2000
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From: KWallie@aol.com
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Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 14:44:02 EST
Subject: check out OTA's response to 20/20
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Check out Organic Trade Association's response to 20/20 at:

 <A HREF="http://www.ota.com/">Click here: Organic Trade Association</A> 
http://www.ota.com/

From ThymeForEwe@nemaine.com Sat Feb 05 17:18:58 2000
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Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 17:20:58 -0500
From: Robin Follette <ThymeForEwe@nemaine.com>
Organization: Thyme For Ewe Farm
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Does anyone here have experience with marketing ducklings and chicks?
We'll have four breeds of ducklings and two breeds of chicks for sale this
year.  We could use some advice on how to put the word out.

Domestic duck isn't sold much around here and we'd like to develop the
market.  We free range our ducks until butchering weight.  They're given
grain but don't depend on it.  Last year's customers were very pleased.
Does anyone take duck, chicken or turkey to farmers market?

Rabbit is our newest product.  Pork and beef are our other meats.  We're
well established in those but these smaller animals/birds are fairly new.
We'll appreciate any suggestions anyone would like to make.

Thanks.

Robin & Steve

Thyme For Ewe Farm
Farm fresh vegetables and meats.
http://www.nemaine.com/organic



From swtgrssfrm@nls.net Sat Feb 05 17:28:14 2000
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From: Sue <swtgrssfrm@nls.net>
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I remember hearing of a federal law that was put into effect in response to Texas beef
growers and the Oprah Winfrey show when there was so much negative press surrounding their
product   Does this ring a bell with anyone?   I seem to remember that it prohibited
anyone from saying unfounded negative comments about someone else's prducts.  Does anyone
know of a sympathetic lawyer who would be able to look into this?   It might be a way to
hold 20/20 accountable for misrepresenting organic food.
Sue Steiner
Sweetgrass Farm
Wadsworth, Oh.

KWallie@aol.com wrote:

> Check out Organic Trade Association's response to 20/20 at:
>
>  <A HREF="http://www.ota.com/">Click here: Organic Trade Association</A>
> http://www.ota.com/
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: swtgrssfrm@nls.net
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')


From goodearth@rockbridge.net Sat Feb 05 17:35:07 2000
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Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 17:08:52 -0500
Subject: poultry in asparagus
From: "Andy Lee & Pat Foreman" <goodearth@rockbridge.net>
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>

> 
>     I'm thinking of covering the rows of asparagus with
> wire hoop tunnels, then pasturing poultry in the area.
> Please comment on this notion. :-)
>
Excellent idea. We use electric poultry netting with turkeys and chickens to
hog down the asparagus at the end of the season. The netting is initially
expensive ($127 per 165-feet), but we keep moving it as needed, so it
actually turns out to be cheaper than wire fencing, and more effective in
foraging as well as predator management.

Andy Lee
Central Virignia

From goodearth@rockbridge.net Sat Feb 05 17:35:19 2000
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Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 16:51:50 -0500
Subject: earthway seeders
From: "Andy Lee & Pat Foreman" <goodearth@rockbridge.net>
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> Hi Andy (glad to see you here!) and any others who can help,
> 
> I was planning to purchase an Earthway seeder this year as
> we expand our planting area which will include among other
> things, an acre of cantelope, a sizeable plot of sunflowers
> and extensive cover crops (thank you all for the discussion
> on tilling).  After the recent discussion on Earthway
> seeders, I'm reconsidering.  I just pulled out my reference,
> your Backyard Market Gardening book, and wondered if you're
> still using the three-abreast Earthways?
>
> Sounds like they have problems with sunflower seeds and fine
> seeds, but I haven't seen any other suggestions.  Does
> anyone have something they WOULD recommend?
>
> Thanks for writing your book, Andy.  It was my original
> inspiration to do this!
>
> Marcy Nameth
> SE Colorado

Hi Marcy, thanks for mentioning my book.

I no longer use seeders. As I've gotten older I very seldom plant from seeds
since it requires a well-worked seedbed. Any rocks, roots, grass or weed
clumps will jam the shoe on seeders. In that kind of soil its probably
easier to plant by hand.

I now opt for liberal applications of mulch and transplant through it. This
limits my 2-1/2 market gardens to perennial crops such as fruit trees,
brambles and asparagus, and crops I can start in the greenhouse then
transplant to the field.

However, the three abreast Earthway seeders work great, and the one I built
is still in use at the Intervale Community Farm in Burlington, Vermont. I
first heard of the idea from Eliot Coleman. To build mine I set three
Earthway seeders 12-inches apart on a common axle, and bolted a push bar
across the three handles. (Initially I put 4 seeders together, but it was
too cumbersome and unwieldy).

One pass on the bed lays out three perfectly spaced rows for easy
cultivation with the belly mounted cultivator. Or, make two passes on the
bed, the second spaced over 6-inches from the first, thus giving you six
rows, 6-inches apart. Or, put seeds in the middle row only for large crops
such as watermelons, or seeds in the two outside rows for crops such as
broccoli or cabbage.

For those who are interested I have a used single-row for sale. Contact me
off-list please, or by phone 540-261-8775.

thanks,

Andy Lee
Good Earth Organic Farm
Good Earth Farm School
Buena Vista, Virginia

From goodearth@rockbridge.net Sat Feb 05 17:35:32 2000
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Subject: Poultry on Pasture FAQ
From: "Andy Lee & Pat Foreman" <goodearth@rockbridge.net>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Hello everyone, I've volunteered to write a FAQ for this list about poultry
on pasture. Please post your ideas and experiences so we can get a broad
scale view of what's happening with multi-cropping veggies and fruits with
poultry.

thanks,

Andy Lee
Good Earth Organic Farm
Good Earth Farm School
Buena Vista, Virginia

From grandad@grandadsfarm.com Sat Feb 05 17:57:52 2000
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Subject: Re: check out OTA's response to 20/20
References: <LYR100892-36239-2000.02.05-14.43.45--swtgrssfrm#nls.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99119-36254-2000.02.05-17.28.12--grandad#grandadsfarm.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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> It might be a way to
> hold 20/20 accountable for misrepresenting organic food.

	Civilly law litigation cases are decided on precedents
established in previous court decisions.  If you will also
remember Oprah won that case, the Texas beef ranchers lost.
-- 
From mailto:grandad@grandadsfarm.com and 
the Home of Grandad's Farm Magazine 
in the beautiful suburbs of Columbia, Missouri
http://www.grandadsfarm.com/

From mjb@premier1.net Sat Feb 05 17:58:35 2000
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From: "Michaele Blakely" <mjb@premier1.net>
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Subject: Fw: Rachel #683: MAD COW DISEASE AND HUMANS
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 15:05:46 -0800
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----- Original Message -----
From: Suzy Roth <suzyr@netos.com>
To: <mjb@premier1.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 11:08 AM
Subject: Fwd: Rachel #683: MAD COW DISEASE AND HUMANS




I stayed out of this discussion because when my hard drive crashed this
summer I lost all of my research, but a friend kindly forwarded this to me.
I knew someone had died  in the US from CJD recently, but didn't remember
when and also
couldn't remember what the disease the elk and deer had succumbed to was
called.  Here it is for what's it's worth and your decision on bonemeal.
Michaele
Growing Things[
Carnation WA>
> >=====================Electronic Edition========================
> >.                                                               .
> >.           RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY #683           .
> >.                    ---January 20, 2000---                     .
> >.                          HEADLINES:                           .
> >.                  MAD COW DISEASE AND HUMANS                   .
> >.                          ==========                           .
> >.               Environmental Research Foundation               .
> >.              P.O. Box 5036, Annapolis, MD  21403              .
> >.          Fax (410) 263-8944; E-mail: erf@rachel.org           .
> >.                          ==========                           .
> >.    All back issues are available by E-mail: send E-mail to    .
> >.   info@rachel.org with the single word HELP in the message.   .
> >.  Back issues are also available from http://www.rachel.org.   .
> >.      To start your own free subscription, send E-mail to      .
> >.              listserv@rachel.org with the words               .
> >.       SUBSCRIBE RACHEL-WEEKLY YOUR NAME in the message.       .
> >.    The Rachel newsletter is now also available in Spanish;    .
> >.     to learn how to subscribe, send the word AYUDA in an      .
> >.              E-mail message to info@rachel.org.               .
> >==========================================================
> >
> >
> >MAD COW DISEASE AND HUMANS
> >
> >When a new form of an old human disease appeared in England in
> >1995, some medical specialists immediately suspected that it
> >might be a human version of "mad cow disease," but they had no
> >proof.[1] Mad cow disease had appeared in British dairy cattle
> >for the first time in 1985 and during the subsequent decade
> >175,000 British cows had died from it. British health authorities
> >spent that decade reassuring the public that there was no danger
> >from eating the meat of infected cows. They said a "species
> >barrier" prevented mad cows from infecting humans. A "species
> >barrier" does prevent many diseases from crossing from one
> >species to another -- for example, measles and canine distemper
> >are closely related diseases, but dogs don't get measles and
> >humans don't get distemper.
> >
> >While the British government was placing its faith in the species
> >barrier, British citizens began to die of a new disease, called
> >"new variant Creutzfeld-Jakob disease" or nvCJD. A similar
> >disease, CJD (Creutzfeld-Jakob disease) had been recognized for a
> >long time but it almost never occurs in people younger than 30;
> >nvCJD, on the other hand, strikes people as young as 13. There
> >are several other differences between CJD and nvCJD, so nvCJD
> >represents something new. To date, nvCJD has killed 48 people in
> >England and one or two others elsewhere in Europe. The main
> >feature of both mad cow disease and nvCJD is the progressive
> >destruction of brain cells, inevitably leading to total
> >disability and death.
> >
> >New research published late in 1999 showed that nvCJD is, in
> >fact, a human form of mad cow disease,[2] dashing all hope that a
> >species barrier can protect humans from this deadly bovine
> >affliction.
> >
> >Mad cow disease is formally known as "bovine spongiform
> >encephalopathy" or BSE. BSE is the cow version of a larger class
> >of diseases called "transmissible spongiform encephalopathies,"
> >or TSEs. TSEs can afflict sheep, deer, elk, cows, mink, cats,
> >squirrels, monkeys, humans and other species. In all species the
> >symptoms of TSEs are the same -- progressive destruction of brain
> >cells leading to dementia and death.
> >
> >Traditional Creutzfeld-Jakob disease (CJD) is a rare human
> >affliction. The visible symptoms are similar to Alzheimer's
> >disease; in fact, CJD is sometimes diagnosed as Alzheimer's and
> >therefore may go unrecognized. CJD strikes one in a million
> >people almost all of whom are older than 55. In people younger
> >than age 30, CJD is extremely rare, striking an average of 5
> >people per billion each year, worldwide (not counting the recent
> >outbreak in England).
> >
> >In cows, the latency (or incubation) period for mad cow disease
> >is about 5 years, meaning that cows have the disease for five
> >years before symptoms begin to appear. No one knows the latency
> >period for nvCJD in humans, but it is thought to be around 10
> >years. Because of this uncertainty, no one is sure how many
> >people in England already have the disease but are not yet
> >showing symptoms. The British government's chief medical officer,
> >Professor Liam Donaldson, said December 21, 1999, "We're not
> >going to know for several years whether the size of the epidemic
> >will be a small one, in other words in the hundreds, or a very
> >large one, in the hundreds of thousands."
> >
> >The epidemic of mad cow disease was caused by an agricultural
> >innovation -- feeding dead cows to live cows. Cows are, by
> >nature, vegetarians. But modern agricultural techniques changed
> >that. Cows that died mysteriously were sent to rendering plants
> >where they were boiled down and ground up into the consistency of
> >brown sugar, and eventually added to cattle feed. It was later
> >determined that mad cow disease was being transmitted through
> >such feed, and especially through certain specific tissues --
> >brain, spinal cord, eyes, spleen and perhaps other nerve tissues.
> >
> >Ten new cases of nvCJD were reported in England in 1999, bringing
> >the total to 48. It has been more than 10 years since government
> >authorities banned the use of the particular parts of cows
> >thought to transmit mad cow disease. The appearance of new cases
> >of nvCJD in 1999 implies either that the latency period for the
> >disease is longer than 10 years, or that infected meat was not
> >effectively eliminated from the food chain when government
> >authorities said it was, or both.
> >
> >The SUNDAY TIMES of London reported in late December that some
> >meat banned for human consumption is still being marketed in
> >England. After the mad cow scandal erupted, the British
> >government attempted to eradicate the disease by requiring that
> >all cows older than 30 months be slaughtered. As a result, by
> >last September more than 2.5 million British cows had been
> >killed. But the TIMES reported that British investigators have
> >documented at least 50 cases of farmers and cattle dealers using
> >bogus identity documents to falsify the ages of cows in order to
> >sell them for human consumption. Furthermore, the Agriculture
> >Ministry acknowledged that as many as 90,000 cattle could not be
> >accounted for. About 1600 new cases of mad cow disease are still
> >being reported each year in England.
> >
> >In December, French health authorities announced finding a second
> >case of nvCJD, a 36-year-old woman in Paris. France has continued
> >to refuse to import British beef, even though the European Union
> >on August 1, 1999, formally declared British beef as safe as any
> >in the European Union. The European Union said in December it
> >will take France to the European Court of Justice to force it to
> >import British beef. Germany is also refusing to import British
> >beef.
> >
> >The U.S. government says mad cow disease has never been observed
> >in any U.S. cows. However, a closely-related TSE disease, called
> >chronic wasting disease (CWD), has been increasing for almost 20
> >years among wild deer and elk in northern Colorado and southern
> >Wyoming. Since 1981, CWD has been spreading slowly among wild
> >deer and elk herds in the Rocky Mountains and now afflicts
> >between 4% and 8% of 62,000 deer in the region between Fort
> >Collins, Colorado and Cheyenne, Wyoming.
> >
> >During 1999, CWD erupted among a herd of elk on the David Kesler
> >Game Farm near Philipsburg, Montana, which raised elk
> >commercially. A few of Mr. Kesler's elk had been shipped to
> >Oklahoma and Idaho, and perhaps elsewhere, and CWD was discovered
> >in some of those animals, too. In early December, Montana health
> >authorities slaughtered 81 elk on Mr. Kesler's farm. They
> >initially announced plans to incinerate the carcasses, but later
> >decided that incineration would be too expensive. The animals
> >were finally buried at the High Plains Sanitary Landfill north of
> >Great Falls. Equipment used to feed, water and care for the
> >animals was also buried in the landfill. Montana authorities
> >announced that the fenceline at the elk farm would be
> >decontaminated, but they did not say what procedure they would
> >use. Nor did they announce what would become of Mr. Kesler's
> >contaminated land. The disease agent that causes CWD -- a prion
> >protein -- is very hardy and resists destruction by traditional
> >sterilization techniques like alcohol and heat.
> >
> >The diseased elk carcasses in the High Plains landfill have been
> >buried under a mound of garbage but will still be accessible to
> >rainwater and perhaps to scavenging animals.
> >
> >In northeastern Colorado and southeastern Wyoming, state
> >officials are urging hunters to protect themselves when dressing
> >wild deer and elk they have shot. Hunters should wear rubber
> >gloves, minimize contact with brain and spinal cord tissues,
> >discard the brain, spinal cord, eyes, spleen and lymph nodes and
> >definitely not eat them. There is no evidence that CWD can cross
> >over from deer and elk to humans, but there was no firm evidence
> >that mad cow disease could afflict humans until 1999, so wildlife
> >officials in the Rocky Mountain states say caution is warranted.
> >
> >Writing in the BOSTON GLOBE, Terry J. Allen reported in late 1999
> >that, since 1996, Creutzfeld-Jakob disease has been identified in
> >3 Americans younger than age 30.[3] All three are known to have
> >hunted extensively or eaten venison. There is no evidence that
> >CWD disease has jumped from deer or elk to humans, but the
> >appearance of this extremely-rare disease in young people was the
> >first evidence of a problem in England, so health authorities in
> >the U.S. say they are aggressively investigating all the
> >possibilities.
> >
> >A statistician at the federal Centers for Disease Control (CDC)
> >in Atlanta told Terry Allen that, if one more case of CJD had
> >surfaced in a person younger than 30 in the U.S., it "might tip
> >the balance," meaning it might convince authorities that
> >something truly unusual was occurring. Dr. Michael Hansen of
> >Consumer's Union says, "Given how rare the disease is in young
> >people and how difficult it is to make a diagnosis, the
> >possibility that some cases go undetected cannot be ruled
> >out."[3]
> >
> >Indeed, of the 3 cases detected in the U.S. since 1996, one
> >nearly went undetected. Last year in Utah, Doug McEwan, 28, began
> >to show an array of mysterious symptoms: loss of memory, loss of
> >motor control, mood swings, and disorientation. His wife, Tracey,
> >says his doctors conducted hundreds of tests but could not
> >diagnose his disease. She happened to see a TV program on mad cow
> >disease and she insisted that Doug's doctors must test for CJD. A
> >brain biopsy confirmed the diagnosis.
> >
> >One of the three young CJD victims had eaten deer shot near
> >Rangely, Maine, so last November federal officials took samples
> >of brains from 299 deer shot in western Maine. Authorities said
> >at the time they were quite sure Maine deer are not harboring
> >CWD. So far, test results have not been released.
> >
> >Federal authorities have quarantined two herds of sheep in
> >Vermont because they say the sheep may have been given feed that
> >contained parts of animals afflicted by mad cow disease. The
> >sheep had been imported into Vermont from Belgium and the
> >Netherlands, where they may have been fed improperly. A similar
> >herd of sheep in New York state was recently purchased by the
> >federal government and slaughtered.[4]
> >
> >Meanwhile, a 68-year-old Indiana man with a fondness for
> >beef-brain sandwiches died of CJD last summer. Beef-brain
> >sandwiches are a local delicacy in Indiana, introduced years ago
> >by German immigrants. The EVANSVILLE (INDIANA) COURIER reported
> >that John Hiedingsfelder, a forensic pathologist in Evansville,
> >said he had seen three cases of CJD in the past year. No
> >connection to mad cow disease has been established in the Indiana
> >cases.  Roberta Heiman, a staff writer for the EVANSVILLE
> >(INDIANA) COURIER reportedly received a warning from a
> >cattleman's association not to publish any further articles about
> >this subject.
> >============
> >
> >[1] Unless a specific source is cited, information in this issue
> >of Rachel's was taken from www.mad-cow.org, a web site maintained
> >by Thomas Pringle of Eugene, Oregon. Sources of information are
> >cited at www.mad-cow.org.
> >
> >[2] Michael R. Scott and others, "Compelling transgenic evidence
> >for transmission of bovine spongiform encephalopathy prions in
> >humans," PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES Vol. 96,
> >No. 26 (December 21, 1999), pgs. 15137-15142.
> >
> >[3] Terry J. Allen, "Rare, Animal-Borne Disease a Medical
> >Mystery; Officials Examine Maine Deer in Hunt for Clues," BOSTON
> >GLOBE December 12, 1999, pg. C26.
> >
> >[4] Matthew Taylor, "Mad Cow Fears, Anger on Farms; Two Imported
> >Sheep Herds Quarantined in Vermont," BOSTON GLOBE October 31,
> >1999, pg. F24.
> >
> >Descriptor terms: mad cow disease; england; france; montana;
> >wyoming; vermont; maine; deer; elk; bse; tse; central nervous
> >system disorders;
> >
> >################################################################
> >                             NOTICE
> >In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107 this material is
> >distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior
> >interest in receiving it for research and educational purposes.
> >Environmental Research Foundation provides this electronic
> >version of RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY free of charge
> >even though it costs the organization considerable time and money
> >to produce it. We would like to continue to provide this service
> >free. You could help by making a tax-deductible contribution
> >(anything you can afford, whether $5.00 or $500.00). Please send
> >your tax-deductible contribution to: Environmental Research
> >Foundation, P.O. Box 5036, Annapolis, MD 21403-7036. Please do
> >not send credit card information via E-mail. For further
> >information about making tax-deductible contributions to E.R.F.
> >by credit card please phone us toll free at 1-888-2RACHEL, or at
> >(410) 263-1584, or fax us at (410) 263-8944.
> >                                        --Peter Montague, Editor
> >################################################################
>



From marc@aculink.net Sat Feb 05 19:51:58 2000
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Subject: Re: check out OTA's response to 20/50
References: <LYR100892-36239-2000.02.05-14.43.45--swtgrssfrm#nls.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99119-36254-2000.02.05-17.28.12--grandad#grandadsfarm.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99061-36261-2000.02.05-17.57.52--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Grandad wrote:
> 
> > It might be a way to
> > hold 20/20 accountable for misrepresenting organic food.
> 
>         Civilly law litigation cases are decided on precedents
> established in previous court decisions.  If you will also
> remember Oprah won that case, the Texas beef ranchers lost.
..snip..

I suggest that litigation is influenced, not determined, by
precedents. A jury is not 100% bound by precedent.

It seems that 20/20 is now 20/50. It seems they have taken
on the same clothes as Jerry Springer, National Enquirer,
and other spectacle shows rather than concentrating on solid
and balanced journalism. Barbara Walters used to be a
respected reporter but I guess with advancing age, loss of
talent and falling ratings "Oh how the mighty have fallen".

The National Enquirer and other "news" entities have fallen
many times. The 20/50 report is obviously of a "ambush"
type. It had obviously anti-organic entities, sound bytes
and other techniques designed to ALARM rather than INFORM.

The initial premise was that organic was bad and the show
was designed to support that.

Marc

From london@metalab.unc.edu Sat Feb 05 19:56:30 2000
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Subject: Bad Reporting (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 10:35:22 -0500
From: Chris Linde <clinde@home.com>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Subject: Bad Reporting

Hi,

Today there is an article at abcnew.com that completely trashes the
value of organic food.  Looks like Monsanto and the FDA boys have them
in their back pocket.  Let your people know to complain about this
shoddy piece of "journalism".

Sincerely,

Chris Linde


From BBGREGSON@cs.com Sat Feb 05 20:20:56 2000
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From: BBGREGSON@cs.com
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Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 20:21:02 EST
Subject: Re: Poultry on Pasture FAQ
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Hi Andy-
One of the practices we like best is to move a modified chicken tractor into 
one of our rotational zones when the crop is ready to come out---peas for 
example---then put a portable 3' wire fence held up by a t-post every 15' or 
so around that zone.  The chicken tractor was "modified" by cutting a hinged 
door into the side.  Thus it serves as a moveable dormitory where the 
chickens sleep, drink and lay eggs, but they spend their days outside 
cleaning up the crop residue, vines, etc., and scratching around everywhere 
for a week or two, then move on to another similar zone.  It works nicely 
because we lock them in at night, thus can easily drag the tractor with them 
inside to their next work location, move the fence, and then let them out to 
go at it.
Bob and Bonnie Gregson, Island Meadow Farm, Vashon, WA

From guldann@ix.netcom.com Sat Feb 05 20:26:39 2000
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References: <LYR98960-36183-2000.02.05-08.28.26--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: My customers are upset!!!!!
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 20:30:34 -0800
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This is exacty what I was afraid of.  I just printed the other post
"Avery-NY Times Article. I am going save and let any members read.  Beth
> I've already received 10 emails from customers inquiring about the tabloid
> smut shown on 20/20.  Thank God they came to me to ask for further
> enlightenment.  I've ordered the transcript from the show for proof that
> John Stossel said 5% OF ALL PRODUCE SHOWED PATHOGENS-not just organic.



From marc@aculink.net Sat Feb 05 20:53:39 2000
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CC: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Reccomendation to OTA
References: <LYR100892-36239-2000.02.05-14.43.45--swtgrssfrm#nls.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99119-36254-2000.02.05-17.28.12--grandad#grandadsfarm.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99061-36261-2000.02.05-17.57.52--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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I found this on the FCC website: 
http://www.fcc.gov/mmb/prd/docs/manual.html#JOURNALISM

     "Personal Attacks. Personal attacks occur when, during
the presentation of views on a controversial issue of public
importance, someone attacks the honesty, character,
integrity, or like personal qualities of
     an identified person or group. No more than a week
after a personal attack, the station must transmit the
following three things to the person or group attacked: (1)
notification of the date, time, and
     identification of the broadcast; (2) a tape, script or
accurate summary of the attack; and (3) an offer of a
reasonable opportunity to respond on the air."




This implies to me that the OTC may be able to demand an
equal time in an equal time slot for purpose of responding
to the ABC attack.

An FCC complaint possibly may be filed if ABC doesn't want
to play.

From dldavis@texas.net Sat Feb 05 21:11:52 2000
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From: "The Davis Family" <dldavis@texas.net>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: My e-mail to 20/20
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 20:11:51 -0600
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I watched the 20/20 segment last night and boy was that a slam on organic
farming.  You might want to know that Dennis Avery is Senior Fellow for the
Center for Global Food Issue www.hudson.org .He has a book entitled Saving
the Planet with Pesticies and Plastics.  Kind of tells you where he's coming
from.  The spokes person for the organic marketing association was a laugh.
Couldn't they find someone that could speak with passion for the organic
farming side. It was a rather one sided show .

Dan
Redfield Farm
Dale, Tx
-----Original Message-----
From: Hook Family <guldann@ix.netcom.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 10:15 PM
Subject: My e-mail to 20/20


>This is what I wrote to 20/20
>Your piece on organic food gets an F. It was very poorly researched and
very
>one sided.  You may want to dig a bit into the back ground of D. Avery and
>see who he actually works for.
>You may want to test the soil, air and water in the farm belt.  You may
want
>to learn the diffence between compost and manure!  You may have said that
>even conventional farmers use manure compost.  You may want to read a set
of
>organic growing regulations. You might want to visit an organic farm.
>An the bit about organic faming wasting land that was laughable.  Weeds can
>be hand or machine weeded you don't have to just sray them, or plow up an
>additonal field to compensate. Plus lets measure acres of most organic farm
>vs conventional farms. Then calculate the pounds of vegetables produced per
>acre. Next time do some research.  Beth
>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: dldavis@texas.net
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>
>


From cappy@harborside.com Sat Feb 05 22:15:05 2000
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From: "Cappy Tosetti" <cappy@harborside.com>
To: <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Positive magazine article
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 19:23:57 -0800
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Hi there....

One day there's a negative, the next a positive. =20

Turn off your TV and treat yourself to a copy of the January/February, =
2000 issue of National Health and turn to pages 100, 101,102, 103, 146 =
and 147.  There's a terrific article, chock-full of wonderful photos, on =
CSA farms, written by Martiga Lohn.

I know this discussion forum involves more than CSA farms, but it's such =
a positive story on organic produce, I think you'll enjoy it.  I'm =
planning to write thank yous to the publisher and the writer.

Should I mail 20/20 a copy, or do you suppose they'd understand it?

Anyway, this is the type of good reporting that continues to surface.  I =
bet many of the readers of this magazine start looking for a CSA farm =
near them.
It certainly helps the image of organic farming!

So, remember, not all is bad out there. =20

Cappy Tosetti
on the Oregon coast

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	charset="x-user-defined"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dx-user-defined" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Hi there....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>One day there's a negative, =
the next a=20
positive.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Turn off your TV =
and&nbsp;treat yourself=20
to a copy of the January/February, 2000 issue of National Health and =
turn to=20
pages 100, 101,102, 103, 146 and 147.&nbsp; There's a terrific article,=20
chock-full of wonderful photos, on CSA farms, written by Martiga=20
Lohn.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>I know this&nbsp;discussion =
forum=20
involves more than CSA farms, but it's such a positive story on organic =
produce,=20
I think you'll enjoy it.&nbsp; I'm planning to write thank yous to the =
publisher=20
and the writer.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Should I mail 20/20 a copy, =
or do you=20
suppose they'd understand it?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Anyway, this is the type of =
good=20
reporting that continues to surface.&nbsp; I bet many of the readers of =
this=20
magazine start looking for a CSA farm near them.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>It certainly helps the image =
of organic=20
farming!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>So, remember, not all is bad =
out=20
there.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Cappy Tosetti</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>on the Oregon=20
coast</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF700E.8C243760--


From BBGREGSON@cs.com Sat Feb 05 23:45:55 2000
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From: BBGREGSON@cs.com
Message-ID: <5f.122fd1e.25ce568c@cs.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 23:46:04 EST
Subject: Lesson learned about floating row cover
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Just a note about a recent sad lesson.  Had some floating row cover anchored 
over an 80' double row of broccoli to keep it going nicely if the winter 
remained fairly mild, and to stop deer/rabbits who were somehow evading our 
fences.  Along came big windstorms over a period of several weeks.  The wind 
abraded the row cover on the broccoli heads and left little wisps of fabric 
attached to the florets.  The wisps are hard to see and almost impossible to 
totally remove.  Broccoli has to be composted.  Bummer.
Bob Gregson, Island Meadow Farm, Vashon WA

From BBGREGSON@cs.com Sat Feb 05 23:50:41 2000
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From: BBGREGSON@cs.com
Message-ID: <c5.17c2d74.25ce57af@cs.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 23:50:55 EST
Subject: Deaf people involved in farming
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Are any of you, or do any of you know a deaf farmer?  One of our apprentice 
couple for this year is deaf; his wife is a hearing person and translates.  
They and we would like to know if there are tips from others that might be 
helpful.  Thanks!
Bob Gregson, Island Meadow Farm, Vashon WA

From demullis@InfoAve.Net Sun Feb 06 03:52:04 2000
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Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 03:53:44 -0500
From: Dean Mullis <demullis@InfoAve.Net>
Subject: 20/20 crap
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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 <LYR100832-36300-2000.02.06-00.01.17--demullis#infoave.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>


I seen the show and fired off an e-mail to john dunghead.
Had a converstion with my dad right after the show aired who is a conventional row-cropper and
has a cow/calf herd.  The question I asked him was if these people would take a chance on
eating a meal of either conventional or organic food or just wither up and die, good
riddance.  I used to get certified organic until I figured it was a crock of bull
execrement.   My main selling point is the meat and vegetables I sell taste good, which I
attribute to good farm practices, yet my customer base does not really care how it is grown,
they just like the freshness and taste.


From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Sun Feb 06 05:28:36 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: An idea (was Re: Lesson learned about floating row cover)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 05:27:35 -0800
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Ouch!  That broccoli story hurts.

I was reading about floating row covers the other day and the source
suggested that when the row cover is over wire hoops, to place another set
of wire hoops over it.  So it is sandwiched between hoops.  The top hoops
can be placed much further apart than the bottom ones, say one top hoop to
every third bottom one.

This was done purposely to avoid flyaway covers.

Sounds like a good idea.  I'll try it this year.

Rose


From gutierrez-lagatta@home.com Sun Feb 06 05:45:01 2000
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Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 05:49:49 -0500
From: Adriana Gutierrez & Dennis LaGatta <gutierrez-lagatta@home.com>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Aphids in greenhouses
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Aphids are the cockroaches of the greenhouse world.   If I'm not
mistaken ALL aphids are female, are born pregnant and bear at least 250
live young over their life span.  Let me preface this by saying that
while I am not certified organic I believe in using the least-toxic
methods of pest control.  I can tell you that I've tried all of the
suggestions reported to date and many others including:  ladybugs,
lacewings, kelp strays, molasses and Safer soap, all with limited
success.  The beneficials tend to fly away over time, even the so-called
"Stay-at-Home" lady beetles.  I continue to use these occasionally but
the most consistently effective treatment for me is a spray of:

1 part Murphy's Oil Soap
1 part alcohol
9 parts water

I can not tell you if this is kosher with the certifiers but I know of
an "organic" grower in our area who uses this.  One of our local retail
nurseries swears by Ultra Fine Oils (which if I'm not mistaken are not
allowed for those of you who are certified?), however I have repeatedly
had bad results with them.  I get black spots on all of the plants. 
However, I believe part of my problem is my inability to spray in the
late afternoon (my greenhouse is not near my home).  The official line
is not to spray oils when it is hotter than 90 degrees - in my belief if
the sun is shining it magnifies through the droplets and burns the
plants regardless of temperature.  Therefore, try spraying in the
afternoon.

THE most effective treatment is cool weather.  If your plants can take
it drop the temperature in the greenhouse into the forties or even
thirties for a couple of days and it will slow down the reproduction
rate dramatically.  Forceful spraying with a hose also provides good
knockdown - in my case I grow mesclun greens, densely seeded and this is
usually not an option.  I did do this on an infested lemon tree with
good results.  

Whatever treatment you select, especially sprays, you will need to
repeat it every three days for a couple of weeks.  If you're not
certified organic, natural pyrethrins will help, as will neem.  Rotating
the sprays will keep the critters from building a resistance. I have
also read that keeping a couple of finches in the greenhouse cuts down
on bug problems considerably, I suspect more the slug, snail, cutworm
crowd but maybe aphids too.

The long term management of aphids in the greenhouse requires a good
impervious insect netting (I believe an ultra-fine one is now
available), a healthy supply of beneficials, extraordinary precautions
in the introduction of outside plants, controlling the entrance of
outsiders, especially people who work with plants, into your
greenhouse.  If you have an ant problem you will need to take care of it
as they have a symbiotic relationship with the aphids.   I'm in a
temporary greenhouse situation now which doesn't allow me a lot of these
controls, but in my next, permanent greenhouse I plan to grow a band of
beneficial attractant plants around the entire perimeter of the
greenhouse.  Gardens! Alive and other suppliers sell mixes of seed or
you can make up your own.

From pike@always-online.com Sun Feb 06 05:50:26 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
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References: <LYR98963-36316-2000.02.06-05.28.36--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: An idea (was Re: Lesson learned about floating row cover)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 05:51:58 -0500
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Ruth: >floating row cover & extra hoops<

I did this last year.  I kept seeing the cords stretched over hoops in
pictures, but didn't know how to  hold them.  so I just used  another
hoop.  It worked really well.

Liz
Morningstar Garden
Pollocksville NC




From pike@always-online.com Sun Feb 06 06:10:49 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR100892-36239-2000.02.05-14.43.45--swtgrssfrm#nls.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99119-36254-2000.02.05-17.28.12--grandad#grandadsfarm.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99061-36261-2000.02.05-17.57.52--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-36277-2000.02.05-20.53.38--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Reccomendation to OTA
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 06:12:23 -0500
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From: Marc & Marcy <marc@aculink.net>
> This implies to me that the OTC may be able to demand an
> equal time in an equal time slot for purpose of responding
> to the ABC attack.


Geez, someone please stop their spokesperson from speaking for me.
No, I'm not a member of OTA or OTC, whichever it is, but she/they sure
as hell affected my business with their inept handling of basic
questions always asked about organic produce.  I'm sorry.  Another
organization, hell, I'll do it, should speak up & DEMAND their 15
minutes of fame correcting this fallacy.  As I see it now, she libeled
all of us in the organic community-members or not, certified or not.

The members should get together & formally reprimand the OTA-withhold
dues, fire everyone/anyone, do something.  It's THEIR organization.  I
sure wouldn't stand for it.  As a matter of fact, if I were the type
of person to sue, and wasn't so court-room shy...

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC


From pike@always-online.com Sun Feb 06 06:19:53 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-36262-2000.02.05-17.58.33--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Rachel #683: MAD COW DISEASE AND HUMANS
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 06:21:23 -0500
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>From Michaela: > > >Writing in the BOSTON GLOBE, Terry J. Allen
reported in late 1999 that, since 1996, Creutzfeld-Jakob disease has
been identified in 3 Americans younger than age 30.[3] All three are
known to have hunted extensively or eaten venison. <

I think I got out of bed this morning & stepped onto the wrong planet.
Good grief.  We eat a ton of venison.  I've got to have someone test
it for me.  Can you westerners please keep this out there-don't let it
cross the Mississippi, okay?

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC


From pike@always-online.com Sun Feb 06 06:30:04 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-36239-2000.02.05-14.43.45--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: check out OTA's response to 20/20
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 06:31:35 -0500
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>From the OTA website:  >Moreover, Dr. Michael Doyle of the University
of Georgia, the researcher who conducted the tests cited by 20/20, has
said the produce was tested for a "generic" E. coli screen, and as
such, "does not differentiate between pathogenic and non-pathogenic E.
coli."

E. coli is a very complicated subject and cannot be explained within a
simple sound bite. E. coli lives in the intestines of most animals,
including humans, and helps digest food. Only specific types of E.
coli are pathogens, defined as microorganisms capable of causing
disease or injury.<

Did anyone hear the spokesperson reiterate this??  Why are they doing
a sales job on their website to people who already know the truth
about organics???    Too little, too late, and to the wrong audience.

Indeed, this info is too late for the public who rely on tv for
"accurate" news.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC



From pike@always-online.com Sun Feb 06 06:44:56 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-36211-2000.02.05-11.26.22--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Dennis Avery
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 06:46:25 -0500
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From: Aaron Silverman <cgrowers@pond.net>
>Many of their statements and published  treatises have
unsubstantiated statements and conclusions. Their  effectiveness is in
their ability to publish, and have media connections that allow them
to have their positions distributed to mass audiences.<


I've come to the conclusion organics isn't for the masses.   But where
is our "voice", our ability to publish, have media connections, etc?
I assumed the OTA thought this might be in their job description.
Apparently not.

I didn't need that "voice" to assure my customers, but it would have
been nice.

As for Avery-he's a modern day Pied Piper for the conventional farmers
& promoters-they like the music,  not knowing it is sending our soil
to hell.

Anyway, local produce, local customers, local trust.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC



From pike@always-online.com Sun Feb 06 06:50:12 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-36203-2000.02.05-10.39.20--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Cut & Paste:Re: 20/20
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From: Marie Kamphefner <kampy@netins.net>

> "deer in the headlights" look that the Organic Association's
president had.
>  But, one has to consider that the 20/20 program is cut and pasted
and what
> she said may have been out of context.


I don't believe they cut & paste in mid-sentence.

Liz


From pike@always-online.com Sun Feb 06 06:51:47 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR99136-36150-2000.02.05-00.36.31--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99136-36194-2000.02.05-09.53.48--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-36201-2000.02.05-10.18.22--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: OTA-commercial or non-profit?
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From: Sojourner <sojournr@missouri.org>

> > http://www.ota.org
> 
> AAARG!  The correct URL is
> 
> http://www.ota.com
> 

Is OTA commercial or non-profit??

Liz


From pike@always-online.com Sun Feb 06 06:56:38 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
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Subject: Other OTAs??
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----- Original Message -----
From: Dori Green <dorigreen00@hotmail.com>

> We are making an impact.  For long and long, the Big Guys haven't
bothered
> to swat at us.  We must stand fast, and stand together!

yeah, as in slammed into the ground by a 747.  The swat was slander &
libel.

Really, I know, I'm a day behind all this.  I will quit harping-soon.
My sincerest apologies to the conventional farmers on this list.

Isn't there any other organization out there who better represents
organics?

Liz


From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Sun Feb 06 06:59:34 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: The masses...(was Re: Dennis Avery)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 06:58:17 -0800
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From my personal experience at organic farming, the public perception seems
to be that it is "nice" but it's too expensive, not readily available, and
nobody's getting sick from supermarket produce.

It is marginal and will probably not mainstream unless two things happen, in
my opinion:

1.    There is a direct and scientifically established link between
pesticides and ill health - physical and mental - and the EPA bans the lot
of 'em!

2.    Growers of organic produce bring their prices in line with
traditionally grown produce.

Well, the EPA isn't fast enough or loose enough to ban anything unless it
fairly screams out.  And organic growers are just as greedy as anyone else
and they are convinced by land grant universities that they can't make money
unless they charge more.

So, not only is the food not readily accessible, but it's significantly more
expensive and, unless you're convinced that you'll die with the next bite of
traditional produce, no one is going to go out of their way to get it.

One more thing...organic produce still doesn't "look" as good as the other
stuff!  Despite the fact that we shouldn't have gotten used to blemish-free
produce, we did.  And we are constantly comparing.  Much of the produce
looks dull and is most often smaller.  I've seen it with just about
everything except for lettuces and greens.

So, the masses, who vote with their dollars, are not going to mainstream
organically grown produce.

Rose


From pike@always-online.com Sun Feb 06 07:01:02 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <40634@market-farming><LYR99119-36101-2000.02.04-22.39.54--grandad#grandadsfarm.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-36187-2000.02.05-09.23.48--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: ABC's 20/20 , Replies, Avery, Sanet
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Thank you Marcie!  You're a godsend.  I don't subscribe to SANET, did
but hated the full mailbox, and reading with a dictionary.   If
there's anything interesting said there about all this, could you
forward it to market farming, or at least me??

TIA

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville, NC


From KWallie@aol.com Sun Feb 06 07:09:23 2000
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Subject: Re: The masses...(was Re: Dennis Avery)
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In a message dated 2/6/00 6:00:14 AM Central Standard Time, 
pyrite@clarityconnect.com writes:

<< 2.    Growers of organic produce bring their prices in line with
 traditionally grown produce. >>

i think your terminology is mixed here!  organics are the TRUE traditional 
method...insecticides, herbicides, growth hormones, ge stock, etc are all 
products of only the 20th century!  our great-grandparents and other 
ancestors farther back never sprayed with round-up!

From pike@always-online.com Sun Feb 06 07:51:29 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <24.ca138d.25cc7399@aol.com>
Subject: Re: fish meal
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 07:53:03 -0500
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From: <CAVM@aol.com>

> Do you mind if I ask what part of the country you are in and about
what you
> have to pay for fish meal there? Neal Van Milligen

I am answering this in the list for all who have asked privately!

I live on the coast of North Carolina, where fishermen & crabbers are
having as hard a time holding onto their livelihood as small farmers.
This small local fertilizer producer uses whole, live caught, menhaden
fish &/or blue crabs after 50% of the edible meat has been removed.
They have 3 products-all good, one approved by CFSA, NC state organic
certifying agency.  These descriptions & costs are from 5/14/99-the
last time I ordered.  You must call for bulk prices over 500 lbs.

Chanteyman Brand Organic Fertilizers, Beaufort, NC
email ukusa@mail.clis.com
ph# 919-781-6933
       252-728-7645

Fishmeal Fertilizer 8-4-.05  Made from live caught menhaden-not scrap.
Stabilized at factory & analyzed to guarantee nutrients.  No chemical
nitrogen added to achieve water insoluble 8% nitrogen content.  Price:
3# $6.75-24# $24.50

Crabber's Choice 5-1-0.5  Crab shells are kiln dried, then pulverized.
No chemicals or stabilizers added.  I don't know why our agency
doesn't allow this!  4# $5.75-100# bags $55, min order 5 bags.

Crabber's Choice Plus 6-1-0.5-4# approved for certified organic use.
4# $6.50-100# bag $60, min order 5 bags.

Liz


From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Sun Feb 06 07:57:31 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: The masses...(was Re: Dennis Avery)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 07:56:31 -0800
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Let me correct my terminology for those interested in this thread...

When I say "traditional", I refer to the longstanding farming practices that
give us the supermarket produce we have all been used to.

I do not mean traditional in the sense of old and predating the use of
pesticides - which would also predate most of us on the list.

Sorry if I muddled up the issue.

Rose


From HMSTDFRMS@aol.com Sun Feb 06 08:06:47 2000
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Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 08:07:00 EST
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We've been reading the comments regarding the 20/20 fiasco. Initially I was 
so enraged that I could hardly comment rationally, and I couldn't for the 
life of me remember where I had heard the Avery name before. Once the 
emotions settled a bit, I remembered that Joel Salatin (author of several 
books on sustainable farming) had told me he had debated this guy last 
summer. I found this debate interesting (to say the least), and it can be 
read at the following web site. 
Now, how do we get 20/20 to interview Salatin?
Linda
Homestead Farms
Salatin/Avery Debate can be read at:
http://metalab.unc.edu/farming-connection/ruralwri/features/asdebate.htm

From pike@always-online.com Sun Feb 06 08:14:59 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-36331-2000.02.06-06.59.33--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: The masses...(was Re: Dennis Avery)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 08:16:31 -0500
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Rose wrote:  > One more thing...organic produce still doesn't "look"
as good as the other stuff!  Despite the fact that we shouldn't have
gotten used to blemish-free
> produce, we did.  And we are constantly comparing.  Much of the
produce looks dull and is most often smaller.  I've seen it with just
about everything except for lettuces and greens.  So, the masses, who
vote with their dollars, are not going to mainstream
> organically grown produce.

As I said organics, in my opinion are not for the masses.

I really think this thread of organics needs to close soon before we
allienate our fellow subscribers who may not hold our beliefs.  We've
all got our point across.  But....before I swear off any more postings
on this thread...

Where do you buy your organic produce????   I've never seen organic
produce that looked worse than conventional.  I've bought from regular
grocery stores who also sell organics side-by-side with conventional
(couldn't tell the difference, except the tag), from road side
sellers-the colors pulled me in off the road, and from my very own
garden.   The sizes may sometimes run smaller, but color, appearance
have all been comparable.

Okay, I'll shut up & think of something else to discuss.  You will
hear/read no more from me on this  ; ).


Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC


From dorigreen00@hotmail.com Sun Feb 06 08:19:30 2000
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From: "Dori Green" <dorigreen00@hotmail.com>
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Fear, Sex, and Organic Farming
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 08:19:48 EST
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In response to the 20/20 fearmongering piece, somebody on the list wrote:  
"Sex sells better, but they could  hardly put a sexual slant on organic 
farming."

I apologize for not capturing the identity of the author.  Still working on 
my reading-the-list-with-notepad-open system.

Can anything be sexier than the dance of life in organic farming?  The Green 
Man and the White Lady are alive and well and very happy in my fields and 
forests, thank you!  (So is Jesus, just in case anybody wonders.) <G>

Maybe that's what the chemical companies are afraid of -- if we organic 
farmers ever figured out how to connect our product to the sexual energy 
inherent in it, nothing will stop us!

But then if we mention that testosterone levels in male humans have dropped 
50% during the 50 years that chemical pesticides and fertilizers have been 
in vogue, then we're accused of fearmongering.

For me, organic gardening and farming is very sexy.  Most of the "organic 
folks" I know are also resonating at a more life-ful and passionate level 
than most of the members of the Great Status Quo of society.

So how can we communicate this sexiness in a tasteful and family-oriented 
way?  I'll bet it'd be an awesome marketing tool!

Thank you, John Stossel, for moving my thinking in that direction!

Dori Green
Ash Grove Community Farm
Corning, NY

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From dorigreen00@hotmail.com Sun Feb 06 08:22:26 2000
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From: "Dori Green" <dorigreen00@hotmail.com>
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Long long posts
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 08:22:47 EST
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Just an idea --

For super-long informational posts or copies from elsewhere, could people 
with websites set up a page (even if temporary) and park the info there, 
just post a URL on the list?

Dori Green
Ash Grove Community Farm
Corning, NY

______________________________________________________
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From pike@always-online.com Sun Feb 06 08:22:39 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Lawrence London
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 08:24:04 -0500
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I met him!!!   We're working on a project together (local farmers look
out)!!   Yeah!!

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC


From dorigreen00@hotmail.com Sun Feb 06 08:28:49 2000
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From: "Dori Green" <dorigreen00@hotmail.com>
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: market-farming digest: February 05, 2000
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 08:29:07 EST
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Andy Lee wrote that electric poultry net fences were "more effective in 
foraging as well as predator management".

Right on, Andy.  And I love my wildlife, but nothing warms my heart much 
more than the middle-of-the-night YELP that tells me another coyote or 
wandering neighbor's dog has been turned away from my flock.

Mine are all over the place.  I love 'em.  The manufacturers lie, they 
cannot be moved by one person in just ten minutes, at least not when a 
curious goat herd is tagging along getting tangled in loose fence whenever 
they can.  But still I love my electric net fences.

I find them to be environmentally sensible too -- I use rechargeable D cell 
batteries in a "Wasp" charger for my moveable fences.

Dori Green
Ash Grove Community Farm
Corning, NY

http://www.ic.org/agrove

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From guldann@ix.netcom.com Sun Feb 06 08:30:00 2000
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From: "Hook Family" <guldann@ix.netcom.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98960-36279-2000.02.05-22.15.04--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Positive magazine article
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 08:33:58 -0800
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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  Cappy wrote below snipped message I repond below:
  I know this discussion forum involves more than CSA farms, but it's =
such a positive story on organic produce, I think you'll enjoy it.  I'm =
planning to write thank yous to the publisher and the writer.

  Should I mail 20/20 a copy, or do you suppose they'd understand it?

  Anyway, this is the type of good reporting that continues to surface.  =
I bet many of the readers of this magazine start looking for a CSA farm =
near them.
  It certainly helps the image of organic farming!   snip

  I say send it to Barbara Walters.  Did you notice she said to Stossel =
at the end of piece, "I buy organic food"  and he says something like  =
well it may not be worth it and not good for you.  I was hoping she knew =
the piece was lies.  Beth


------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF707C.E9A62A60
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="x-user-defined"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dx-user-defined" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Cappy wrote below snipped =
message I=20
  repond below:</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>I know this&nbsp;discussion =
forum=20
  involves more than CSA farms, but it's such a positive story on =
organic=20
  produce, I think you'll enjoy it.&nbsp; I'm planning to write thank =
yous to=20
  the publisher and the writer.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Should I mail 20/20 a copy, =
or do you=20
  suppose they'd understand it?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>Anyway, this is the type of =
good=20
  reporting that continues to surface.&nbsp; I bet many of the readers =
of this=20
  magazine start looking for a CSA farm near them.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>It certainly helps the =
image of organic=20
  farming!&nbsp;&nbsp; snip</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D2>I say send it to Barbara =
Walters.&nbsp;=20
  Did you notice she said to Stossel at the end of piece, "I buy organic =

  food"&nbsp; and he says something like&nbsp;&nbsp;well it may not be =
worth it=20
  and not good for you.&nbsp; I was hoping she knew the piece was =
lies.&nbsp;=20
  Beth</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF707C.E9A62A60--


From guldann@ix.netcom.com Sun Feb 06 08:50:04 2000
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From: "Hook Family" <guldann@ix.netcom.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98960-36331-2000.02.06-06.59.33--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: The masses...(was Re: Dennis Avery)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 08:53:50 -0800
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Rose wrote I have snipped some:

> It is marginal and will probably not mainstream unless two things happen,
in
> my opinion:
>
> 1.    There is a direct and scientifically established link between
> pesticides and ill health - physical and mental - and the EPA bans the lot
> of 'em!
>
> 2.    Growers of organic produce bring their prices in line with
> traditionally grown produce.

> So, not only is the food not readily accessible, but it's significantly
more
> expensive and, unless you're convinced that you'll die with the next bite
of
> traditional produce, no one is going to go out of their way to get it.
>
> One more thing...organic produce still doesn't "look" as good as the other
> stuff!  Despite the fact that we shouldn't have gotten used to
blemish-free
> produce, we did.  And we are constantly comparing.  Much of the produce
> looks dull and is most often smaller.  I've seen it with just about
> everything except for lettuces and greens.
>
> So, the masses, who vote with their dollars, are not going to mainstream
> organically grown produce.

I agree with some of what Rose says the gen. public won't be won over when
conventional produce seems ok.  I do not agree that the premium price on
organics is greed, In fact I very much disagree.  We are beginning the
process of certification and there are going to be some increased costs due
to it.  For example organic seedlings.  Greed! No  Attempting a profit yes!

In the grocery store I have noticed that sometimes the organic stuff doesn't
look as good.  But NOT the stuff that comes off this farm, its positively
works of art and I do not exaggerate.  Ok not all the corn, but whats the
big whoop break of the end then its beautiful and free of chemical
pesticides.  My .02  Beth


From guldann@ix.netcom.com Sun Feb 06 08:59:26 2000
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From: "Hook Family" <guldann@ix.netcom.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98960-36345-2000.02.06-08.28.49--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: electric net fencing
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 09:02:41 -0800
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> Andy Lee wrote that electric poultry net fences were "more effective in 
> foraging as well as predator management".
> 
> Right on, Andy.  And I love my wildlife, but nothing warms my heart much 
> more than the middle-of-the-night YELP that tells me another coyote or 
> wandering neighbor's dog has been turned away from my flock.

Does any one know of an internet or regular source of these?  Beth


From pike@always-online.com Sun Feb 06 09:05:55 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <389A66E1.3D58460D@ucla.edu>
Subject: Re: List Novelty and Unsubscribers
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To: Elizabeth Pike <pike@always-online.com>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 12:42 AM
Subject: List Novelty and Unsubscribers


> Please note I sent this to you alone.  What would have been so
horribly
> difficult for you to have sent your reply personally to the one who
> meant to read it?  Your defence strikes me with the same porous lack
of
> self control that I get for telling students they can't swear in
public.
>
> You're an adult.  Self restraint behooves you.  I don't need your
cute
> responses to someone else's complaint, just like the rest of the
list
> doesn't need mine to you.


EXCUSE ME????   I'm replying to the list since you chose to attack me
for my doing something that affected the whole list.  I assume you
mean my response to a poster about unsubscribing??  (You didn't have
the decency to let me know if this is indeed your "complaint" or which
unsubscriber-I get 300-400 emails a day, so I'm not going to bother
trying to recall which.)

I stand by my post & do not apologize for asking unsubscribers to
follow list procedure.  Letting everyone know you're unsubscribing is
like a complaint on a product-makes others not want to buy it.  After
too many unsub posts, I had read enough to think we needed to move on
& all subscribers needed to know this.  I was insulted that our
enthusiastic postings were considered a novelty-once again, if this in
fact the post to which you refer.   Farming is not a novelty, nor is
continuing one's education in their profession a novelty.

My posts are intended to inform & enlighten & share, my obligation as
a subscriber-contributions keep the list vital.  If you think they're
cute, so be it.  I can't hide my personality.

(Note: I had the decency to hide your identity.  Is this enough
self-restraint for you?)

>From now on, consider me a delete key on your board.  It's that easy.
BTW, I had several subscribers thank me for posting that response.
They were too shy, or too nice.  Apparently, something which you think
I am lacking, for which I do not care.

I hate sending this out to everyone, but I wanted everyone to
understand why I did not do it privately.

Liz



From snsaquasys@townsqr.com Sun Feb 06 09:56:37 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: S & S Aqua Farm <snsaquasys@townsqr.com>
Subject: List archives


Just curious - are the list archives posted automatically so that we don't
lose track of any of this information?

Paula Speraneo
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775  417-256-5124
Web page  http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/


From pike@always-online.com Sun Feb 06 10:16:10 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-36353-2000.02.06-09.56.36--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: List archives
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yes, go here, type in your email addy & optional password you signed
up with.

http://franklin.oit.unc.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=market-farming

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville  NC


From dorigreen00@hotmail.com Sun Feb 06 10:55:22 2000
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From: "Dori Green" <dorigreen00@hotmail.com>
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Oops, Self-Edit
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 10:55:39 EST
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I mis-spoke in an earlier post.  Relax, guys, testosterone is just fine.

It's declining sperm counts that have been linked to pesticides.

http://www.cqs.com/esperm.htm

Many other URL links can be located through a Lycos search.

I feel also that as my "outraged orgie" voice has risen in response to the 
20/20 business, I hope my non-organic list friends understand that my acid 
is not directed at them.  This is an important forum where we can celebrate 
our common ground and discuss our differences rationally.

I'll be quiet now.  For a while, anyway.  <G>

Dori Green
Ash Grove Community Farm
Corning, NY

http://www.ic.org/agrove

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From goodows@excite.com Sun Feb 06 11:37:19 2000
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Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 08:37:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley <goodows@excite.com>
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Subject: Re: earthway seeders
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We have 2 earthway seeders we put together by taking off the handles and
than attatching one handle to both seeders and putting a spring clamp on the
front. Takes about 10 minutes to set up. The seeders are a foot apart.
Having a 1' wide row makes for easy cultivation too.

We have been lucky to find seeders at auctions for usually under $25.00
(though we had to order the plates for one as it only had a popcorn plate). 

We haven't tried doing 3 on an axel (or attatching with a second handle)
because we don't have 3 seeders yet but one never knows when one will come
our way for a song.


>  


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





_______________________________________________________
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Visit http://freeworld.excite.com


From fullcircle@jps.net Sun Feb 06 12:05:19 2000
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Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 09:04:58 -0800
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Netiquette of the Week - re-posting private communications


I've been asked, and rightly so, to talk about re-posting private
communications.

If someone replies to you privately, and you think the topic is of broad
interest, please ask permission before you post their communication to the
list.  If the sender gives it to you, please indicate that, so the rest of
us will know the background of the post.

It is unethical (and in some places illegal) to copy the body of a private
communication into a new e-mail and forge the original sender's address in
order to post to this list.  Doing so will get you unsubscribed.  As far as
I know this has only happened once, but I'm sure none of us want this bad
apple to spoil our barrel.

We're new, valuable, and finding our way.  In our excitement, we sometimes
forget that e-mail really isn't face-to-face communication, and the nuance
of body language, eye contact, humor, and sarcasm, don't come through in
print.  Let's all be gentle an respectful of each other.  After all, we're
the only market-farming list we have :-)

Warmly, and respectfully,
Marcie



Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From pike@always-online.com Sun Feb 06 12:20:49 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-36341-2000.02.06-08.19.29--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Fear, Sex, and Organic Farming
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 12:22:24 -0500
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Marketing of sex is not just limited to organic farming.  It is as
much a part of any farm! It isn't necessarily the "sex" that sells,
but the sensual quality of what we all do-positively contributing to
society, and having such a passion about it.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville  NC


From pike@always-online.com Sun Feb 06 12:25:50 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: reposting
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 12:27:27 -0500
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If I do something wrong before the whole list, then chastise me before
the whole list.

Liz







From mjb@premier1.net Sun Feb 06 12:31:22 2000
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From: "Michaele Blakely" <mjb@premier1.net>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98946-36342-2000.02.06-08.22.25--mjb#premier1.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Long long posts
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 09:38:43 -0800
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----- Original Message -----
From: Dori Green <dorigreen00@hotmail.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2000 5:22 AM
Subject: Long long posts


> Just an idea --
>
> For super-long informational posts or copies from elsewhere, could people
> with websites set up a page (even if temporary) and park the info there,
> just post a URL on the list?
>  Dori Green
> _
You are so right !  My apologies to those of you on the list I frustrated
with my recent post. I am a fast reader ; what I read takes my husband twice
as long.  I forget that sometimes when posting.  I won't ever, ever do it
again.
Michaele
Growing Things
Carnation WA
_____________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: mjb@premier1.net
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From marc@aculink.net Sun Feb 06 12:37:23 2000
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Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 10:30:04 -0700
From: Marc & Marcy <marc@aculink.net>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Reccomendation to OTA
References: <LYR100892-36239-2000.02.05-14.43.45--swtgrssfrm#nls.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99119-36254-2000.02.05-17.28.12--grandad#grandadsfarm.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99061-36261-2000.02.05-17.57.52--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-36277-2000.02.05-20.53.38--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99061-36319-2000.02.06-06.10.49--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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..snip..
> The members should get together & formally reprimand the OTA-withhold
> dues, fire everyone/anyone, do something.  It's THEIR organization.  I
> sure wouldn't stand for it.  As a matter of fact, if I were the type
> of person to sue, and wasn't so court-room shy...
..snip..

I suspect that the attack on organic by ABC was a shock
since many consider organic a sacred cow. Well it isn't
anymore. It looks like organic growers need to learn how to
defend their vocation since thay are now in season. 

Stoessel brags about "debunking". ABC put its resources to
create the perception of a debunking show. In sales
"perception is truth". Truth is only relevant as a tool to
support the desired perception.

There is nothing the OTA could do to combat this. They were
used to support the debunking. The spokeswoman was
responding as objectively as possible to an ambush designed
well in advance of their meeting to be emotional,
controversial and alarmist.

INVENT, not find, a controversial concept. Organic is bad
for you, the land, the world and it can kill you!!! Pretty
controversial. They chose well.

STRATEGIZE on how to support the concept. You can be sure
ABC had meetings in order to figure out how to make their
CONTROVERSIAL concept seem credible.

In order to support the "debunking" ABC chose to engage in
ALARMIST tactics well defined and engaged in by the National
enquirer and other "tabloid" entities.

Acquire "EXPERTS" to support your position. They couldn't
have picked a better junk yard dog.

LIMIT "responses" to support the "debunking" Stoessel brags
about. You will note the lack of ANYTHING good about organic
food in the program - all bad.

ALARM viewers or listeners to evoke an emotional response.
This is "Monkey News". It is designed to get people jumping
up and down and making OOH! OOH! screaming noises like
monkeys in a tree when they see a tiger or other predator.
ABC intended to create a predator to get people acting like
monkeys. 

Add a big news name. You will note that Barbara Walters
ACTED REASONABLE for a minute or so at the end of the
program. There is an old saying about "giving a touch of
class to an otherwise ugly brawl".

ABC did an excellent job. I have experienced this type of
attack many times and have had to defend my products at many
trade shows. It's as old as the hills.

It could be best that everyone who is an organic advocate
learn how to advocate for organics as big business does not
have any scruples about destroying it completely if it
serves profit. For example ABC doesn't care about destroying
it to boost their ratings!!

Marc

From mjb@premier1.net Sun Feb 06 13:01:29 2000
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From: "Michaele Blakely" <mjb@premier1.net>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR100892-36239-2000.02.05-14.43.45--swtgrssfrm#nls.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99119-36254-2000.02.05-17.28.12--grandad#grandadsfarm.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99061-36261-2000.02.05-17.57.52--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-36277-2000.02.05-20.53.38--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99061-36319-2000.02.06-06.10.49--marc#aculink.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98946-36370-2000.02.06-12.37.23--mjb#premier1.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Reccomendation to OTA
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 10:08:46 -0800
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----- Original Message -----
From: Marc & Marcy <marc@aculink.net>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2000 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: Reccomendation to OTA


> >
> I suspect that the attack on organic by ABC was a shock
> since many consider organic a sacred cow. Well it isn't
> anymore. It looks like organic growers need to learn how to
> defend their vocation since thay are now in season.
>
> Stoessel brags about "debunking". ABC put its resources to
> create the perception of a debunking show. In sales
> "perception is truth". Truth is only relevant as a tool to
> support the desired perception.
>
> There is nothing the OTA could do to combat this. They were
> used to support the debunking. The spokeswoman was
> responding as objectively as possible to an ambush designed
> well in advance of their meeting to be emotional,
> controversial and alarmist.
>
> learn how to advocate for organics as big business does not
> have any scruples about destroying it completely if it
> serves profit. For example ABC doesn't care about destroying
> it to boost their ratings!!
>


You couldn't have put it more precisely!  I was composing a post saying
almost the exact same thing.  I deleted it since you have already so
articulately brought up these points.  I was well prepared for watching the
show since on the West coast it's later and I was able read several
responses on this list before viewing.
The only other points I might add  in response to Marc's are:  when you
respond to this show in whatever manner you choose,  make no emotional
statements, stick to the facts mam.  OTA's reprensentative was not scared,
she was angry.  They baited her.  Be careful, keep emotion out of it.  I've
had interviews before and was amazed at what was presented after.  "I
implied that?"  Those kind of tactics are as old as the hills.

Michaele
Growing Things
Carnation WA
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: mjb@premier1.net
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>


From igg@igg.com Sun Feb 06 13:22:07 2000
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 c.edu>
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Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 13:25:59 -0400
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Allan Balliett <igg@igg.com>
Subject: Re: electric net fencing
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"


>  > Andy Lee wrote that electric poultry net fences were "more effective in
>>  foraging as well as predator management".
>>
>>  Right on, Andy.  And I love my wildlife, but nothing warms my heart much
>>  more than the middle-of-the-night YELP that tells me another coyote or
>>  wandering neighbor's dog has been turned away from my flock.
>
>Does any one know of an internet or regular source of these?  Beth


Premier Fencing sells this. They have a website, but I don't have the 
URL. Probably most of the 'professional' NZ-oriented fencing 
companies are using it now.

We use it here (for the chickens) and swear by it.

-Allan Balliett
Claymont Farm
-- 

From fsfarm@mufn.org Sun Feb 06 13:29:17 2000
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From: "five springs farm" <fsfarm@mufn.org>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR99014-36204-2000.02.05-10.40.23--fsfarm#mufn.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Help! Ahpids in the greenhouse
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 13:27:07 -0500
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when we found aphids in the greenhouse a couple years ago it was just about
the time in the spring that the ladybugs that overwintered in the woodwork
came out...they had a feast.

Jim and Jo
The Community Farm Newsletter
http://www.mufn.org/public/tcf
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Creech <creech5@mail.tds.net>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 7:02 PM
Subject: Help! Ahpids in the greenhouse


> Hi,
>
>    I have aphids in the greenhouse. My dad brought in affected plants.
> ANyone have a GOOD recipe for an organic spray?
> TIA,
> Penny
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: fsfarm@mufn.org
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>
>



From pike@always-online.com Sun Feb 06 13:32:38 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98960-35661-2000.02.03-10.01.17--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-35691-2000.02.03-11.16.26--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Marketing URL
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 13:34:12 -0500
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Thanks for the wonderful resource!!  (I'm replying privately as
instructed.  I seem to have touched a sore spot on the list.  Good
grief!  I hope I didn't bother you!)

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC


From pike@always-online.com Sun Feb 06 13:38:50 2000
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Subject: Re: Marketing URL
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 13:40:23 -0500
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Oohhh I'm so sorry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Liz



From fsfarm@mufn.org Sun Feb 06 13:43:49 2000
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From: "five springs farm" <fsfarm@mufn.org>
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References: <LYR99014-36316-2000.02.06-05.28.36--fsfarm#mufn.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: An idea (was Re: Lesson learned about floating row cover)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 13:31:59 -0500
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when the row cover is over wire hoops, to place another set
> of wire hoops over it.  So it is sandwiched between hoops.  The top hoops
> can be placed much further apart than the bottom ones, say one top hoop to
> every third bottom one.
>
> This was done purposely to avoid flyaway covers.


When we "hoop" we use pieces of 3/4" black plastic (plumbing) pipe. Some
pieces of old garden hose, about 6" long, sliced open will slip over the
hoop and hold the fabric quite nicely.
Jim and Jo
The Community Farm Newsletter
http://www.mufn.org/public/tcf

>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: fsfarm@mufn.org
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From goodows@excite.com Sun Feb 06 13:58:46 2000
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Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 10:55:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley <goodows@excite.com>
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On Sat, 5 Feb 2000 20:21:02 EST, market farming wrote:

>  Hi Andy-
>  One of the practices we like best is to move a modified chicken tractor
into 
>  one of our rotational zones when the crop is ready to come out---peas for

>  example---then put a portable 3' wire fence held up by a t-post every 15'
or 
>  so around that zone.  The chicken tractor was "modified" by cutting a
hinged 
>  door into the side.  Thus it serves as a moveable dormitory where the 
>  chickens sleep, drink and lay eggs, but they spend their days outside 
>  cleaning up the crop residue, vines, etc., and scratching around
everywhere 
>  for a week or two, then move on to another similar zone.  It works nicely

>  because we lock them in at night, thus can easily drag the tractor with
them 
>  inside to their next work location, move the fence, and then let them out
to 
>  go at it.

Bob, Andy,
We do the same thing-have tractors with pop doors on them and a 4' fence
around the tractors so the birds can play outside all day. There is a
picture of the two kinds of tractors we have built at my website. The tall
tractor was the first type-it is made out of 2x2 and corrugated metal
roofing that we can get a lot of for free. These tractors are big enough for
nesting boxes but we have found less than satisfactory conditions using them
for layers so they are no longer for that purpose. they are also heavy and
take two people to move them easily even with an axel and wheels under one
end.
The smaller and much perferred tractors (the quonset hut style) by the
chickens were made from 45bu pig feeders we got at an auction for $7 for 7
of them./ These are very light yet stable in high winds. They have pop doors
at each end so the tractors can be put together end to end. The birds also
liked standing on top and using the curved sides as a slide. When we got the
first quonset style tractor together the birds immediately abandonned the
larger tractors for the new one (and many were hatched and brooded in the
big tractors too).
The fencing is held up with iron stock-my husband blacksmiths (decorative
stuff like candlstick holders and hooks) and usually has a lot of iron stock
around and at under a dollar makes a cheap fence post that can be yanked out
of the ground and moved. ewe think of the fence as an amoeba.
The URL is http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa/Chickens.html (the
picture takes a bit to load-be patient).

Andy I would like to thank you for writing about the chicken tractor-it is a
wonderful concept and so adaptable to many situations.
>  


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





_______________________________________________________
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Marketing URL
References: <LYR98960-35661-2000.02.03-10.01.17--guldann#ix.netcom.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-35691-2000.02.03-11.16.26--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR99119-36376-2000.02.06-13.32.37--grandad#grandadsfarm.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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> Thanks for the wonderful resource!!  (I'm replying privately as
> instructed.  I seem to have touched a sore spot on the list.  Good
> grief!  I hope I didn't bother you!)

	That is strange, if this was a personal response then how come
I got it?  It is real easy to see who an email is addressed to. 
Their address is in the box marked TO:
-- 
From mailto:grandad@grandadsfarm.com and 
the Home of Grandad's Farm Magazine 
in the beautiful suburbs of Columbia, Missouri
http://www.grandadsfarm.com/

From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Sun Feb 06 14:36:16 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: Re: Netiquette of the Week - re-posting private communications
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 13:35:49 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
Reply-To: lflondon@mindspring.com
Message-ID: <puer9s4ocs0mq8o6cqb178imkle83bd29r@4ax.com>
References: <40843@market-farming>
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On Sun, 6 Feb 2000 09:04:58 -0800, Marcie Rosenzweig
<fullcircle@jps.net> wrote:

>It is unethical (and in some places illegal) to copy the body of a private
>communication into a new e-mail and forge the original sender's address in
>order to post to this list.  Doing so will get you unsubscribed.  As far as

That's pretty rare but forwarding, without permission, sensitive
private email to a list with or without one's response appended is
more common and very impolite - or just quoting private email in a
post to a list without the author's permission, equally impolite.

A minor clarification. Most people don't know how to hack headers
(forge posts from someone) so this is likely to continue to be a rare
occurance.  Those on Unix systems can usuallu bounce a users private
email to other destinations, lists and newsgroups as well as
individuals. This is transparent and looks just like the user intended
to send said mail - except that the hidden headers will reveal _who_
did the bouncing. Those that do this anyway sometimes use this method
to cancel the forged author's newsgroup message(s) - resulting in
their prematurely being removed from all servers carring the newsgroup
in question. If found out all ISP's will remove, probably permanently,
the account of the user in question. So, you have forging of email and
forging and cancelling of newsgroup articles, all illegal and all will
result in loss of Web access.

Meanwhile, back at the market-farm.....
Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
metalab.unc.edu/market-farming Market Farming
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu



From pike@always-online.com Sun Feb 06 15:31:36 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Fw: Netiquette of the Week - re-posting private communications
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 15:33:08 -0500
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I have Marcie's permission.  Liz

----- Original Message -----
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
To: Elizabeth Pike <pike@always-online.com>
Cc: <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2000 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: Netiquette of the Week - re-posting private
communications


> >So does this mean even when a snip is used we must ask permission??
> >Liz
>
> Nope,
>
> We had someone forge a header and post an entire private, off-topic
> communication which resulted in a response from me to the original
author
> and a couple of others.  The original author was offended because
they felt
> they'd communicated privately and not for public consumption.
>
> One or two line Snips of general interest, not identifying the
author of a
> private communication, with comments and replys are SOP.  Forwarding
a
> proivate communication to the group without permission is the no-no.
>
> And BTW, you may forward this to the list with my permission.  If it
wasn't
> clear to you, it probably confused others.
>
> Marcie A. Rosenzweig
> Full Circle Organic Farm
> Auburn, CA
>
>
>


From pike@always-online.com Sun Feb 06 15:37:25 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98963-36387-2000.02.06-15.31.35--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Netiquette of the Week - re-posting private communications
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 15:38:59 -0500
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Marcie, what's SOP?

Liz


From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Sun Feb 06 15:41:06 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: An idea (was Re: Lesson learned about floating row cover)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 15:40:06 -0800
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Jim and Jo just mentioned they use a 3/4" black plastic pipe as the hoop and
use pieces of old garden house like clips to prevent row cover from flying
away.

Jim and Jo, could you tell us more?

Was I correct in interpreting that the hose pieces act like clips?

How long are the plastic pipes before you bend them into hoop
shapes?

How wide are the rows or beds that these hoops are covering?

Why are you covering them - for frost or insects or both?

Do you fit them over pins that are in the ground, or just push them into the
soil?


We're putting together a hoophouse frame - well, as soon as the snow reveals
the ground again - and we're using 20' lengths of PVC pipe fitted over rerod
(steel reinforcing rod).  But this is a large-ish building and will be
covered with 6 mil poly.

Rose


From binac@apollo.vicon.net Sun Feb 06 15:59:05 2000
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Subject: Organic orchard
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 16:04:20 -0000
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From: Bina Carey <binac@vicon.net>
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I just attended the PASA conference here in Central PA.   Two of the 
workshops I chose were by Michael Phillips, author of the Apple Grower. 
  He discussed a new option available for insect control: Kaolin clay.   
Sprayed at pink stage, a good covereage of clay repels plum curculio, 
codling moth and sawfly.   A surfactant needs to be added to the mix.   
There's more info at www.engelhart.com, who sells this clay (with 
surfactants already added), or it can be purchased from pottery 
suppliers.    It sounds very promising, and I'm looking to use it to 
replace my Imidan spraying.

Sabine Carey

Full Circle Farms
CSA - connecting people to the land
www.fullcirclefarms.com


From fullcircle@jps.net Sun Feb 06 16:03:10 2000
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Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 13:02:54 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Standard Operating Procedure


>Marcie, what's SOP?
>
Standard Operating Procedure

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From grandad@grandadsfarm.com Sun Feb 06 16:11:52 2000
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> >Marcie, what's SOP?
> >
> Standard Operating Procedure

	Although it seems a trifling difference, and it does not change
the general definition much at all technically it is STANDING
Operating Procedure.  The only difference is that the latter
infers that it the latest version of the operating procedure. 
Like I said it is a minimal difference. 
-- 
From mailto:grandad@grandadsfarm.com and 
the Home of Grandad's Farm Magazine 
in the beautiful suburbs of Columbia, Missouri
http://www.grandadsfarm.com/

From KWallie@aol.com Sun Feb 06 19:26:53 2000
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Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 19:23:19 EST
Subject:  20/20 - Organic Farmers Marketing Association
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if you will go to the following page you can email 20/20 directly, AND tell 
them you have been personally defamed...

<<<http://www.abcnews.go.com/onair/email.html>>>

From flowers@rt66.com Sun Feb 06 20:05:24 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: Aphids in greenhouses


>re:Aphids are the cockroaches of the greenhouse world. 

we've had good luck with the aphid parasites from www.arbico.com

especially in the winter leafy crops in the greenhouses  but ill give the
murphy oil a shot on ornamentals ,thanks 

martin
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow

5059898337 office
5057578337 farm april/november
5059203421 cell



From london@metalab.unc.edu Sun Feb 06 20:57:18 2000
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To: csa@franklin.oit.unc.edu, market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
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My apologies to sanet subscribers; I will try to post
as few as possible from there in the future. This one 
seemed to be worthwhile for these lists.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 21:34:36 +0000
From: Joyce Deming <JDEMING@worldnet.att.net>
To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: 15 Minutes of Fame, Part 2

Greetings again, Saneteers!

I am working on another article for Lynn Byczynski's "Growing for Market"
newsletter about how couples can work together on farm projects without
getting divorced.  While we all laugh about this topic and have our own war
stories to tell (ask me about putting up a metal storage shed during a
chinook wind storm!), it's a serious issue, and many relationships don't
withstand the stress of a family business.  I'd like to interview couples,
particularly those involved in market gardening, who have successfully
managed to work together and keep their relationships intact.  I'd also like
to interview folks who weren't so successful and find out what they think
went wrong.  (Names can be changed to protect the innocent!)  ;-)
 
If you or someone you know of would be interested in sharing your
experiences, please contact me by email.  I will then arrange for a phone or
email interview.   My deadline for this one is the end of March.

Thanks again for your help!

Joyce Deming
Vic's Chicks
(A Division of Midlife Crisis Enterprises)
Golden, CO
jdeming@worldnet.att.net



From soberle@bwn.net Sun Feb 06 21:11:15 2000
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Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 18:12:04 -0700
From: Sue Oberle <soberle@bwn.net>
Organization: Oberle Botanical
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My experience with most predators (especially lady bugs) the amount of water needed to
keep them alive, is exactly the amount needed to promote disease.


Wilderness Flowers wrote:

> >re:Aphids are the cockroaches of the greenhouse world.
>
> we've had good luck with the aphid parasites from www.arbico.com
>
> especially in the winter leafy crops in the greenhouses  but ill give the
> murphy oil a shot on ornamentals ,thanks
>
> martin
> Martin Connaughton
> Wilderness Flowers
> 223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
> Santa Fe, NM 87501
> zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow
>
> 5059898337 office
> 5057578337 farm april/november
> 5059203421 cell
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: soberle@bwn.net
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')

--
***********************
Sue Oberle
Oberle Botanical
Fort Collins, Colorado
email: soberle@bwn.net
voice: (970)493-5672
fax:   (970)493-3358
***********************



From mjb@premier1.net Sun Feb 06 21:11:44 2000
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References: <LYR98946-36373-2000.02.06-13.22.07--mjb#premier1.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: electric net fencing/making it work
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 18:19:03 -0800
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----- Original Message -----
From: Allan Balliett <igg@igg.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2000 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: electric net fencing


>
> Premier Fencing sells this. They have a website, but I don't have the
> URL. Probably most of the 'professional' NZ-oriented fencing
> companies are using it now.
>
> We use it here (for the chickens) and swear by it.
>
> -Allan Balliett
> Claymont Farm

We use it also, but it took us a year to figure the voltage needed to be
high enough to shock the chickens through their feathers. (feathers make
great insulation).  I tried all sorts of silly ideas and wasteful  time
trying to keep those birds in.  Once you get the technique down it's a
simple matter to move it around.
Check a farm supply store, if they don't have it they probably know about it
and could get it for you.
Michaele
Growing Things
Carnation Wa
> --
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: mjb@premier1.net
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>


From swtgrssfrm@nls.net Sun Feb 06 21:32:54 2000
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From: Sue <swtgrssfrm@nls.net>
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I like the response someone had to all this commotion about Avery and
that is we sell on a local market and I feel fairly certain that most of
my customers would feel comfortable asking me straight out how I grow my
vegetables or  raise our beef and poultry.  Most of my customers have
spent time in my kitchen and are always offered a tour of the farm.  I
think the key to countering this is our relationships with our
customers.  I have used this as an opportunity to become better educated
so if I am asked questions regarding this I can respond accordingly.
sue


From mjb@premier1.net Sun Feb 06 21:38:16 2000
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From: "Michaele Blakely" <mjb@premier1.net>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98946-36257-2000.02.05-17.35.31--mjb#premier1.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Poultry on Pasture FAQ
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 18:45:33 -0800
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----- Original Message -----
From: Andy Lee & Pat Foreman <goodearth@rockbridge.net>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 2:38 PM
Subject: Poultry on Pasture FAQ

Hi Andy:

We're a diversified market garden with fruits, berries and one walnut tree,a
CSA, a laying flock of about 400 and pastured poultry.  We use many
different techniques with our pastured poultry ie poultry netting, chicken
tractors, sometimes free-range, staying as fluid as possible to meet
changing demands.  The one structure I always maintain is to have birds at
least once on the beds during the year, hopefully twice.

Michaele Blakely
Growing Things
Carnation Wa



> Hello everyone, I've volunteered to write a FAQ for this list about
poultry
> on pasture. Please post your ideas and experiences so we can get a broad
> scale view of what's happening with multi-cropping veggies and fruits with
> poultry.
>
> thanks,
>
> Andy Lee
> Good Earth Organic Farm
> Good Earth Farm School
> Buena Vista, Virginia
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: mjb@premier1.net
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>


From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Sun Feb 06 23:00:53 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: Re: Poultry on Pasture FAQ
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 22:00:16 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
Reply-To: lflondon@mindspring.com
Message-ID: <avcs9s0vmfiaer9a3bfjijuipgic882u45@4ax.com>
References: <LYR98946-36257-2000.02.05-17.35.31--mjb#premier1.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <40911@market-farming>
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On Sun, 6 Feb 2000 18:45:33 -0800, "Michaele Blakely"
<mjb@premier1.net> wrote:

>The one structure I always maintain is to have birds at
>least once on the beds during the year, hopefully twice.

How do you deal with pathogens in the manure. Do you dig it in,
mix it with other material (or finished compost) to be composted in
situ, plant cover crops into it or mix rock powders and garden biomass
with it for composting (and easier release of micronutrients from the
rock powders)?

Based on the article I Xposted earlier I would think applying rock
phosphate and other rock powders plus grass/weed/garden clippings
to the area left behind by the CT (with light or no tillage), then
planting red clover into it might be a productive scheme to enrich
soil and build tilth.
Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
metalab.unc.edu/market-farming Market Farming
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu



From mjb@premier1.net Sun Feb 06 23:34:14 2000
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From: "Michaele Blakely" <mjb@premier1.net>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Poultry on Pasture FAQ
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 20:41:35 -0800
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Lawrence F. London, Jr. <lflondon@mindspring.com> wrote in message =
news:<LYR98946-36446-2000.02.06-23.00.53--mjb#premier1.net@franklin.oit.u=
nc.edu>...
> On Sun, 6 Feb 2000 18:45:33 -0800, "Michaele Blakely"
> <mjb@premier1.net> wrote:
>=20
> >The one structure I always maintain is to have birds at
> >least once on the beds during the year, hopefully twice.
>=20
> How do you deal with pathogens in the manure. Do you dig it in,
> mix it with other material (or finished compost) to be composted in
> situ, plant cover crops into it or mix rock powders and garden biomass
> with it for composting (and easier release of micronutrients from the
> rock powders)?
>=20
> Based on the article I Xposted earlier I would think applying rock
> phosphate and other rock powders plus grass/weed/garden clippings
> to the area left behind by the CT (with light or no tillage), then
> planting red clover into it might be a productive scheme to enrich
> soil and build tilth.
>=20
All of the above, which is why sometimes the birds make it just once =
around the beds.  If I'm lucky I can start birds on beds in late =
March/early April where a cover crop was planted in the fall.  Once they =
are off, it's tilled in lightly.  And again, if I'm lucky I can get =
birds on after a crop is finsihed, (but there is still greenstuff to =
eat) and still have time to plant a covercrop or if it is a long growth =
crop (more than 60 days) another crop planted.  The type of covercrop is =
determined by many variable factors: the time in the season, what will =
follow and it's nutient needs, what the birds like to eat.  I've slowed =
down on adding rock phosphate as the manure from the chickens seem to be =
keeping phosphate needs low or so my soil tests are telling me.
Michaele=20
Growing Things

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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>Lawrence F. London, Jr. &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:lflondon@mindspring.com">lflondon@mindspring.com</A>&gt; =
wrote in=20
message <A href=3D"news:<">news:&lt;</A><A=20
href=3D"mailto:LYR98946-36446-2000.02.06-23.00.53--mjb#premier1.net@frank=
lin.oit.unc.edu">LYR98946-36446-2000.02.06-23.00.53--mjb#premier1.net@fra=
nklin.oit.unc.edu</A>&gt;...<BR>&gt;=20
On Sun, 6 Feb 2000 18:45:33 -0800, "Michaele Blakely"<BR>&gt; &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:mjb@premier1.net">mjb@premier1.net</A>&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt; =
<BR>&gt;=20
&gt;The one structure I always maintain is to have birds at<BR>&gt; =
&gt;least=20
once on the beds during the year, hopefully twice.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; How =
do you=20
deal with pathogens in the manure. Do you dig it in,<BR>&gt; mix it with =
other=20
material (or finished compost) to be composted in<BR>&gt; situ, plant =
cover=20
crops into it or mix rock powders and garden biomass<BR>&gt; with it for =

composting (and easier release of micronutrients from the<BR>&gt; rock=20
powders)?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Based on the article I Xposted earlier I =
would think=20
applying rock<BR>&gt; phosphate and other rock powders plus =
grass/weed/garden=20
clippings<BR>&gt; to the area left behind by the CT (with light or no =
tillage),=20
then<BR>&gt; planting red clover into it might be a productive scheme to =

enrich<BR>&gt; soil and build tilth.<BR>&gt; </DIV>
<DIV>All of the above, which is why sometimes the birds make it just =
once around=20
the beds.&nbsp; If I'm lucky I can start birds on beds in late =
March/early April=20
where a cover crop was planted in the fall.&nbsp; Once they are off, =
it's tilled=20
in lightly.&nbsp; And again, if I'm lucky I can get birds on after a =
crop is=20
finsihed, (but there is still greenstuff to eat) and still have time to =
plant a=20
covercrop or if it is a long growth crop (more than 60 days) another =
crop=20
planted.&nbsp; The type of covercrop is determined by many variable =
factors: the=20
time in the season, what will follow and it's nutient needs, what the =
birds like=20
to eat.&nbsp; I've slowed down on adding rock phosphate as the manure =
from the=20
chickens seem to be keeping phosphate needs low or so my soil tests are =
telling=20
me.</DIV>
<DIV>Michaele </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Growing =
Things</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_025D_01BF70E2.8F5E3960--


From pike@always-online.com Sun Feb 06 23:44:36 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98946-36257-2000.02.05-17.35.31--mjb#premier1.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <40911@market-farming> <LYR98963-36446-2000.02.06-23.00.53--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Poultry on Pasture FAQ
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 23:46:07 -0500
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Lawrence wrote:> How do you deal with pathogens in the manure. Do you
dig it in,
> mix it with other material (or finished compost) to be composted in
> situ, plant cover crops into it or mix rock powders and garden
biomass
> with it for composting (and easier release of micronutrients from
the
> rock powders)?<

I always include 1 bed for chickens in my bed rotation.  I use silkies
for this as they are small, and excellent foragers.  For the chosen
bed that is to be home,  I mow/cut the cover crop, leaving it lying on
the soil, never turning it under.  The bed is enclosed with wire,
shelter placed in one end, then the chickens are added to the bed
(4'x100').   This is usually first of January.  They stay on it until
June (6 months), after which I allow it to sit for 60 days-as per
regulations from state certifying agency, add amendments (compost,
rock phosphate, etc.) &  replant with tranplants for fall crops.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC



From LNGTN-MJ@acaleph.vista.ac.za Mon Feb 07 01:44:28 2000
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From: "MJ Linington" <LNGTN-MJ@acaleph.vista.ac.za>
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Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 08:47:17 +0200
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Hi,
I'm in South Africa and we do not really use greenhouses where I stay 
since the weather is so nice. However, my roses get invested with 
them. The spray I use I am sure could be regarded as "organic" and it 
is really effective. : I keep my  onion skins from my kitchen and 
when I have a "pot full" I pressure cook them with water for about 30 
minutes. I strain the juice and make it up to 1.5 - 2 litres (3-
4pints I think). I then spray the aphids with this onion juice and it 
works like a charm. And since it comes from onion's I'm sure it would 
be acceptable as an organic practice.

Regards
    Maggi
Maggi Linington
email: lngtn-mj@acaleph.vista.ac.za

From paulb@winsoft.net.au Mon Feb 07 03:46:06 2000
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From: "paul bradshaw" <paulb@winsoft.net.au>
To: <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Soil Blockers
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 19:13:28 +1100
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I asked about soil blockers on another list and received some wonderful
information, which I am collating and posting to a web page together with
relevant links. Is there anyone here (who hasn't already told me) who has
any good/bad comments about their use, also recipes for mixes to use with
them.

Is anyone out there using seaweed meal in their seed raising mixes? Any
noticeable benefits?

This list is a great resource - thanks to all the "informants"!!


Paul Bradshaw - Mudgee - Australia

Jack Russell Terriers - great mousers/bad gardeners



From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Mon Feb 07 07:18:28 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Help with Water Pump Selection
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 07:17:19 -0800
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I'm developing a rainwater collection and delivery system for watering as
much of the 2.25A garden as I can.

I have a fair-sized barn with a metal roof which will shed a lot of water.
I'll be putting rain gutters in and leading the water to drums.

I need to pump the water out because the garden space is HIGHER than the
water source.

The water has to go a land distance of less than 400 feet with a maximum
rise of 20 feet.

Any ideas as to what size or type of pump I would need?

Thanks,

Rose


From HMSTDFRMS@aol.com Mon Feb 07 07:52:47 2000
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From: HMSTDFRMS@aol.com
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Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 07:53:01 EST
Subject: Re:  15 Minutes of Fame, Part 2 (fwd)
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Joyce,
Your article about couples who work together is near and dear to my heart. My 
husband and I began a full time farming career together seven years ago after 
we both left management positions in other careers. It's been an interesting 
transition, and not always an easy one!
This topic came up at our regional apprentice meeting, since several of the 
apprentices held extremely romantic notions about working side-by-side with 
their "beloved partner".  
I'd be glad to talk to you sometime.
Linda Bulson
Homestead Farms
Box 24
Grafton, NY 12082
518-279-9867

From mstein@wclynx.com Mon Feb 07 08:47:50 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Mike Steinberg <mstein@wclynx.com>
Subject: Re: 15 Minutes of Fame, Part 2 (fwd)


My wife and I would be interested in sharing our experiences with you. We
have only been farming for one season-this will be our second-but it has
been a very positive experience so far.



From igg@igg.com Mon Feb 07 08:49:05 2000
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References: 
 <LYR98946-36373-2000.02.06-13.22.07--mjb#premier1.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu
 > <LYR98999-36432-2000.02.06-21.11.42--igg#igg.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 08:54:12 -0400
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Allan Balliett <igg@igg.com>
Subject: Re: electric net fencing/making it work
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"


Michaele -

When we use the netting, it's not to keep the birds in, it's to keep 
the predators OUT! Birds have at least one clipped wing. My coments 
have not had a propensity for escaping from the netting. I understand 
that the birds are even more adapted to the netting if they are 
introduced to it as peeps. At PASA Saturday, Kerry Sullivan said that 
he puts the peeps in the netting hen they are very young; they 
actually run through the netting during the day, but stay inside at 
night.

We do run our net at 7,000.

-Allan Balliett
Claymont Farm

>----- Original Message -----
>From: Allan Balliett <igg@igg.com>
>To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
>Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2000 9:25 AM
>Subject: Re: electric net fencing
>
>
>>
>>  Premier Fencing sells this. They have a website, but I don't have the
>>  URL. Probably most of the 'professional' NZ-oriented fencing
>>  companies are using it now.
>>
>>  We use it here (for the chickens) and swear by it.
>>
>>  -Allan Balliett
>>  Claymont Farm
>
>We use it also, but it took us a year to figure the voltage needed to be
>high enough to shock the chickens through their feathers. (feathers make
>great insulation).  I tried all sorts of silly ideas and wasteful  time
>trying to keep those birds in.  Once you get the technique down it's a
>simple matter to move it around.
>Check a farm supply store, if they don't have it they probably know about it
>and could get it for you.
>Michaele
>Growing Things
>Carnation Wa
>>  --
>>
>>  ---
>>  You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: mjb@premier1.net
>>  To unsubscribe send a blank email to
>$subst('Email.Unsub')
>>
>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: igg@igg.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
>$subst('Email.Unsub')

-- 

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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: Help with Water Pump Selection


rose

we water 5 ac on drip approximately 140 beds using a 2 " gas driven water
pump homelite from northern tools ..from a pond  we need to divide the field
in three sections to get adequate water pressure to each section but this is
very economical drip irrigation

our rise is about 10 feet but pump is rate to 28 feet and run on 2 " layflat
is 450 feet 
each bed is 300 feet long with a moderate downhill slope

it is  lot of water to store we ususlly irrigate 3-4 hours at ~9000 gph two
to three times a week 
hope that helps
martin



>I'm developing a rainwater collection and delivery system for watering as
>much of the 2.25A garden as I can.
>
>I have a fair-sized barn with a metal roof which will shed a lot of water.
>I'll be putting rain gutters in and leading the water to drums.
>
>I need to pump the water out because the garden space is HIGHER than the
>water source.
>
>The water has to go a land distance of less than 400 feet with a maximum
>rise of 20 feet.
>
>Any ideas as to what size or type of pump I would need?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Rose
>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: flowers@rt66.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>
>
>
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow

5059898337 office
5057578337 farm april/november
5059203421 cell



From cgrowers@guppy.pond.net Mon Feb 07 12:03:01 2000
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Subject: poultry & crops
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 00 09:13:42 -0800
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From: Aaron Silverman <cgrowers@pond.net>
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We raise about 2,000 pastured broilers, and 3 acres of mixed produce & 
cut flowers. Chickens are run on an acre of the market area from May 
through the middle of June, then moved to pasture for the rest of the 
season. The section the birds are run on is seeded with a cover crop 
tailored for grazing. 

We have experimented with several mixes, including straight white clover, 
oats/annual rye/field peas, oats/cereal rye/annual rye, and a mix of all 
the above. Cover crops must be chosen that are palatable to the birds, 
and can withstand (or even enhanced by) mowing. Pure clover had the best 
results for the chickens, requiring no mowing and producing lots of 
succulent growth. However, for a short-season cover crop, clover is just 
too expensive at $80-$90 per 50lb bag. Peas & oats had great growth, and 
performed well in the beginning of the season, but was difficult to keep 
at grazing height. We thought the birds would eat the succulent peas, but 
merely tromped on them instead. 

We've now settled on mixes of grains & annual rye, for several reasons. 
This type of mix can be either grazed by other animals early in the 
spring to maintain grazing height, or mowed. Either treatment may 
stimulate the grains to "tiller"out, enhancing root growth & additional 
leaf growth. Cereal rye has some alleleopathic effects on weed seeds, 
diminishing their ability to germinate. This type of mix may also be 
established much later in the season, an important aspect in a climate 
that often sees little precipitation during the growing season until well 
into October when light levels are much diminished.

After the birds are phased onto the pasture, the ground is mowed and 
disked. A portion of the section may be planted with winter 
squash/pumpkins with little additional fertility (depending on overall 
fertility levels). The remaining ground is cultivated through July & 
early August, treating it as a bare fallow. Beds are formed and 
overwintering coles (b-sprouts, kale, etc) and garlic are planted in the 
remaining area. Recent research has suggested that microbial activity is 
enhanced with cover crops allowed to go to a slightly more carbonaceous 
phase than normally grown. A small section of chicken ground is allowed 
to go to seed after the birds are removed each year, disked and rolled 
later in the fall than the fallowed ground. This has been sufficient to 
reseed the strip, often with a lusher and thicker stand than the rest of 
the field. As we bring more ground into cultivation, a larger section may 
be allowed to reseed each year.

Although the chickens do provide nitrogen, phosphorus, & calcium, they 
are only a part of our overall fertility program. Birds are generally 
rotated to sections that have seen multiple croppings for the past 2 
years (every section sees birds a minimum of once every 3 years).

Aaron

Creative Growers
Aaron Silverman
88741 Torrence Rd.
Noti, Or. 97461
cgrowers@pond.net
Quality Produce & Pastured Poultry


From marc@aculink.net Mon Feb 07 12:56:35 2000
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Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 10:48:51 -0700
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Subject: Re: Help with Water Pump Selection
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Rose & Fred Lieberman wrote:
> 
> I'm developing a rainwater collection and delivery system for watering as
> much of the 2.25A garden as I can.
> 
> I have a fair-sized barn with a metal roof which will shed a lot of water.
> I'll be putting rain gutters in and leading the water to drums.
> 
> I need to pump the water out because the garden space is HIGHER than the
> water source.
> 
> The water has to go a land distance of less than 400 feet with a maximum
> rise of 20 feet.
> 
> Any ideas as to what size or type of pump I would need?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Rose

This is highly impacted by the size of your pipe as a
pipeline run of 400 feet is a LOOOng run.

As a general rule the most affordable and utilitarian pumps
are 1/2 horsepower. They are widely available at yard sales
or hardware stores.

Using a 1/2 hp jet pump one of these will produce (depending
on the brand and it's wear) around 10 to 13 gallons per
minute (gpm) at a pressure of around 35 psi. Let's use 10
gpm @ 35 psi and see what happens.

There is a thing called friction loss that occurs in pipe. 

From an engineering table I see the loss is is around 35 psi
for a 10 gpm flow through a 3/4" plastic pipe (ID=0.825")
for a 400 foot run. This means the pump would move 10 gpm
through the 3/4" pipe with an open pipe end with no pressure
left over to run a sprinkler. OK for flood but won't run a
sprinkler.

Now the 20 foot rise up from the pump must be taken into
account. A good rule of thumb is for every 2.31 feet of rise
there is a 1 psi drop in pressure. So 20/2.31= approx. 9 psi
loss for the 20 foot rise.

This further decreases the pumps output by a couple of
gallons per minute with a still zero pressure available at
the pipe output. This may be OK if you are willing to flood
the garden at a rate of 7 to 9 gallons per minute (again
flow depends on make and model of the pump you buy).

If you use 1" (ID=1.049") pipe the pressure drop will be
much less. At the same 10 gpm flow you would only drop
around 11 psi through your 400 feet and the 9 psi vertical
loss upward added to that would equal 20 psi loss rather
than 35. Still a 15 psi pressure is still a bit wimpy for a
10 gpm sprinkler.

If your pump intake is lower than the barrels then you can
expect an increase in pressure output of a few PSI.

This means that around a 5 to 6 gallon per minute sprinkler
would decrease flow with a resulting lessening of friction
loss and leave enough pressure to run one sprinkler of
around 5 to 6 gpm very well.

At 5 gpm you would empty a 55 gallon barrel in 11 minutes.

Marc

From goodearth@rockbridge.net Mon Feb 07 13:12:49 2000
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Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 11:42:54 -0500
Subject: RE: Electric netting
From: "Andy Lee & Pat Foreman" <goodearth@rockbridge.net>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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> Mine are all over the place.  I love 'em.  The manufacturers lie, they
> cannot be moved by one person in just ten minutes, at least not when a
> curious goat herd is tagging along getting tangled in loose fence whenever
> they can.  But still I love my electric net fences.
>
> I find them to be environmentally sensible too -- I use rechargeable D cell
> batteries in a "Wasp" charger for my moveable fences.
>
> Dori Green
> Ash Grove Community Farm
> Corning, NY

Dori, thanks for the tip on the Wasp charger. Where can I buy them, and what
sort of ground rod are you using? Are you familiar with Premier's new
Intellishock fence charger that has a built in ground rod? Have you used
one? I'd like to try one but they are quite expensive.

Also, we use the feed bucket decoy when we move goats and poulry. Just put
the feed bucket where you want them to be and when they swarm on it you can
move the fence around them. Works well for goats, pigs, bulls, chickens, and
sometimes turkeys.

Thanks

Andy Lee

From goodearth@rockbridge.net Mon Feb 07 13:13:43 2000
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Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 13:24:19 -0500
Subject: Chastising on list
From: "Andy Lee & Pat Foreman" <goodearth@rockbridge.net>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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>

> 
> If I do something wrong before the whole list, then chastise me before
> the whole list.
>
> Liz

Liz, in "net" lingo this chastising thing is often looked upon as flaming,
and is a practice I despise. However, I will share with you my opinion of
your
frequent posts to this list.

My opinion is that you are alienating me from the list. I know I can delete
your messages, but I first have to read enough of each one to make a
decision whether to save or delete. What a bother when there are 20 or 30
messages from you each day. At the same time, I sincerely want to have the
benefit of the good information that you do have to share. For example, your
post on fish meal is excellent, and very appropriate for the list, and I
quite likely will check them out and buy product from the company you
recommend.

This is just my opinion, not meant to be argumentative, and please know that
I am one of the ones who has complained to the list moderator, and I am
going to disconnect from this list rather than be annoyed every morning when
I open my mail.

Thank You,

Andy Lee
Good Earth Organic Farm
Good Earth Farm School
Good Earth Publications
Tiny House Company
Buena Vista, Virginia

From fullcircle@jps.net Mon Feb 07 13:51:11 2000
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Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 10:51:01 -0800
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: PASA report by John Lozier


For those of you on the right coast, Pennsylvannia Association for
Sustainable Agriculture report by John Lozier on what he attended.  John
reports there were at least 1000 attendees - awesome.

Search This week's arechives at

All messages to sanet-mg are archived at:
http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From pike@always-online.com Mon Feb 07 14:28:08 2000
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References: <LYR98963-36553-2000.02.07-13.13.41--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Chastising on list
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Thanks for doing this to the list as I requested.

Andy, please don't do unsubscribe on my account.  This comes as a
surprise to me as it contradicts the email I've received personally.
But, if I've offended you, then I've offended others who will not
speak up, and for this I sincerely apologize.  I would rather
unsubscribe before having anyone else do so on my account.  The value
of this list and information is far greater than any post I could ever
make.  For everyone so bothered, please accept my apologies, and know
that this has been a great lesson for me, and will never happen again.


Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC



From igg@igg.com Mon Feb 07 14:45:26 2000
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 <LYR98999-36493-2000.02.07-03.46.05--igg#igg.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 14:43:38 -0400
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Allan Balliett <igg@igg.com>
Subject: Re: Soil Blockers
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"


Paul - Do you mind sharing the URL for the shoil block information? 
Thanks -Allan

>I asked about soil blockers on another list and received some wonderful
>information, which I am collating and posting to a web page together with
>relevant links. Is there anyone here (who hasn't already told me) who has
>any good/bad comments about their use, also recipes for mixes to use with
>them.
>
>Is anyone out there using seaweed meal in their seed raising mixes? Any
>noticeable benefits?
>
>This list is a great resource - thanks to all the "informants"!!
>
>
>Paul Bradshaw - Mudgee - Australia
>
>Jack Russell Terriers - great mousers/bad gardeners
>
>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: igg@igg.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
>$subst('Email.Unsub')

-- 

From pike@always-online.com Mon Feb 07 14:55:28 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
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Subject: lawsuit-shades of Oprah
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 14:56:59 -0500
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If you feel you &/or your business were negatively affected by the
20/20 report Friday night, please get in contact with me-off the list.
I will not respond to any public requests.  So watch your send to:
address!  And I will not discuss this on this list-just needed to make
the contact.

Liz Pike
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC


From mjb@premier1.net Mon Feb 07 15:39:40 2000
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Message-ID: <007701bf71ac$7ca895c0$a53695cf@pmjb>
From: "Michaele Blakely" <mjb@premier1.net>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98946-36512-2000.02.07-08.49.05--mjb#premier1.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: electric net fencing/making it work
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 12:46:58 -0800
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----- Original Message -----
From: Allan Balliett <igg@igg.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2000 4:54 AM
Subject: Re: electric net fencing/making it work


> Michaele -
>
> When we use the netting, it's not to keep the birds in, it's to keep
> the predators OUT! Birds have at least one clipped wing. My coments
> have not had a propensity for escaping from the netting. I understand
> that the birds are even more adapted to the netting if they are
> introduced to it as peeps. At PASA Saturday, Kerry Sullivan said that
> he puts the peeps in the netting hen they are very young; they
> actually run through the netting during the day, but stay inside at
> night.
>
> We do run our net at 7,000.

When I first started using the netting I envisioned using it with my layers,
it being an easy fencing for rotations or an extra crew for clean-up.  It
was with an older flock, and they walked right through and flew over every
minute of the day, until not very many were left in the section I wanted
them in. It was also about a third of an acre fenced off, enough room for
the amount of birds I had for a short period of time, but those birds took
it as a challenge.  Even after clipping a wing at least half of the birds
managed to make it over.  We moved  our farm and I decided to just use it on
the broilers, the thought being they move slower, get bigger faster, a zap
might work better on them.  Seems to be the case.  I don't know what I run
the voltage on, before the charger was working a couple of acres with this
netting spliced into it.  When I ran the poultry fence soley on the charger
the shock was enough to keep some of the pullets I put in for a week or two
in. (I did clip a wing on them, so they wouldn't learn to fly over).
Because we are so intensive here, I need to keep my layer birds confined
within certain limits  (they have about two acres to roam).  It is
absolutely disasterous with the number of birds I have for too many to
escape.  The amount of damage an escapee flock can do on a bed of chard is
disheartening, which is why I only use poultry netting on the broilers now.
I've heard that it is used successfully with layers from others, I haven't
really quizzed to find out exactly how.
You say you keep your charger at 7000.  Being someone who does thing by feel
so to speak, how do you measure that?  A voltage regulator?  I'm not sure I
understand.  The charger I have just sets out a certain amount, can you
change the amount going out, or is it like I've done, by just shortening the
fence?  Do you have a specific charger you use?
I'm waiting to hear from Dori on her Wasp charger.  Andy L. wrote in and
asked for the info, so Dori if you read this would you post it for us?

Thanks
Michaele
Growing Things
PS  Once I had a coyote jump the fence for a chicken, and twice a bear lift
a pen up and scoop out a chicken.  I've decided nothing is absolutely fail
safe.


From igg@igg.com Mon Feb 07 18:53:59 2000
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 > <LYR98999-36571-2000.02.07-15.39.39--igg#igg.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 18:59:21 -0400
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Allan Balliett <igg@igg.com>
Subject: Re: electric net fencing/making it work
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"


>You say you keep your charger at 7000.  Being someone who does thing by feel
>so to speak, how do you measure that?  A voltage regulator?  I'm not sure I
>understand.  The charger I have just sets out a certain amount, can you
>change the amount going out, or is it like I've done, by just shortening the
>fence?  Do you have a specific charger you use?

I inherited a digital fence tester. I've only got about 300 ft of 
netting on it. I take the reading at the 'far end.' I'm using a 
plug-in-the-wall charge that cost about $89. It's the housebrand from 
Family Farm, I believe. I also have a battery-powered charger that 
will also reach the 6-7k range. I was using a solar charger for a 
while, but it didn't hold up for long.
-- 

From swtgrssfrm@nls.net Mon Feb 07 19:04:17 2000
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Hi,
  My husband and I have had a market garden and have sold grass-fed beef, lamb and poultry
for the past 6 years by direct marketing.  I would be glad to talk about our experiences
if you would like.  In addition to the farm I have 3 young children so we also work along
side each other with small ones in tow.  I came to this farm after being raised a city
girl so I went thru some major culture shock at the beginning.  I do think that my
husbands style and my own  compliment each other so we have "assigned" each other areas of
expertise but it is always a learning process!
Sue Steiner
Sweetgrass Farm
3505 Rohrer Rd.
Wadsworth, Oh. 44281

"Lawrence F. London, Jr." wrote:

> My apologies to sanet subscribers; I will try to post
> as few as possible from there in the future. This one
> seemed to be worthwhile for these lists.
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 21:34:36 +0000
> From: Joyce Deming <JDEMING@worldnet.att.net>
> To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
> Subject: 15 Minutes of Fame, Part 2
>
> Greetings again, Saneteers!
>
> I am working on another article for Lynn Byczynski's "Growing for Market"
> newsletter about how couples can work together on farm projects without
> getting divorced.  While we all laugh about this topic and have our own war
> stories to tell (ask me about putting up a metal storage shed during a
> chinook wind storm!), it's a serious issue, and many relationships don't
> withstand the stress of a family business.  I'd like to interview couples,
> particularly those involved in market gardening, who have successfully
> managed to work together and keep their relationships intact.  I'd also like
> to interview folks who weren't so successful and find out what they think
> went wrong.  (Names can be changed to protect the innocent!)  ;-)
>
> If you or someone you know of would be interested in sharing your
> experiences, please contact me by email.  I will then arrange for a phone or
> email interview.   My deadline for this one is the end of March.
>
> Thanks again for your help!
>
> Joyce Deming
> Vic's Chicks
> (A Division of Midlife Crisis Enterprises)
> Golden, CO
> jdeming@worldnet.att.net
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: swtgrssfrm@nls.net
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')


From gutierrez-lagatta@home.com Mon Feb 07 20:02:02 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 20:1:59
Subject: Fedco Seeds - Pricing
To: market-farming
From: "Adriana Gutierrez" <gutierrez-lagatta@home.com>


I ordered a Fedco catalog on the basis of earlier discussions in this 
group. I was very impressed with their extensive selection.  However, I was 
very surprised when I compared their prices with Johnny's prices for some 
of the greens I grow:
                 Fedco     Johnny's
                 ------    --------
Mizuna            $ 36/#    $18/#
Tatsoi              30/#     19.35/#
Royal Oak lettuce   30(1/4#)  5.74 (1/4#)   
Red Giant Mustard   36/#      27.55/#
Bull's Blood Beets  60/#      37/# approx
Forellenshluss      20(1/4#)  13.30(1/4#)
Paris Island Cos    $5(1/4#)   6.05(1/4#)

Maybe greens aren't their strong area.  I noted prices as I came upon seeds 
that I use; didn't just post those that were high.  With only one 
exception, Johnny's had better prices.
             


From cshel@usit.net Mon Feb 07 21:45:53 2000
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Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 21:37:52 -0500
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Hi,

My name is Cheri and I live in NE Tennessee.  We have been handed the
opportunity to take over a subscription farm.  We have a small family
farm (45 acres).  A woman in town has had a very successful subscription
farm for 5 years.  She is moving to NC this spring and has offered us
her clients.  She has 45!  I think this is a marvelous opportunity but
am shaking in my boots.  I know that we can not start with such  a large
number.  My husband works full time off the farm but would like to
eventually be able to farm full time.  I have done limited gardening for
our family and loved it (sq. ft. method/raised beds) but never large
scale.  I have read Andy Lees books, and Bob Gregson's Rebirth of the
Small Family Farm (both these guys are terrific writers and they are
wonderful books!!)  Right now I am reading an old copy of Rodale's How
To Grow Vegetables And Fruits By The Organic Method.

After lurking here for about a week, I feel totally unqualified for this
- I know little about soil, pests, etc.  We have only had problems with
grasshoppers and japanese beetles and the occasional cutworm or tomato
worm. The knowledge that all of you possess is incredible!  We have been
using chicken tractors (thanks Andy!) through the garden since October.

I am desperate for information.  I am thinking we should start with 10
families and take names for a waiting list or to call if we have an
abundance of produce.  I am at a loss as to how to plant for large
numbers of people.


Can you recommend any other books?  How do you figure ratio of how much
to plant vs. how many people you are growing for?

I am so thankful for this list.  I am also thankful the volume has
dropped dramatically this last day or so :)  The information has been
wonderful!  So much to learn; soil quality/ammendments, composting,
marketing etc.  I am feeling just a little overwhelmed!!

Thanks so much,

Cheri





From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Mon Feb 07 21:55:00 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: Re: 15 Minutes of Fame, Part 2 (fwd)
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 20:55:21 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
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You all should keep in mind that Joyce may not be reading this forum
so be sure to email your replies directly to her.

>> Joyce Deming
>> Vic's Chicks
>> (A Division of Midlife Crisis Enterprises)
>> Golden, CO
>> jdeming@worldnet.att.net

LL
Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
metalab.unc.edu/market-farming Market Farming
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu



From JDEMING@worldnet.att.net Tue Feb 08 01:33:51 2000
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To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: Joyce Deming <JDEMING@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: More 15 Minutes of Fame
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 06:34:08 +0000


Thanks to everyone who responded to my email request that Lawrence London
forwarded to the list regarding couples working together.  I'll be following
up with a list of questions in a month or so to everyone who responded.  

In the meantime, I'm working on another article for Growing for Market, this
one about dealing with drought.  From what I heard on the news, folks in the
eastern U.S. had a pretty rough go of it last season.  (I've lived in
Colorado all my life and it's hard to realize that there are actually places
in the country where people don't have to irrigate all season long!)  I'd
like to talk to market gardeners in the northeast and mid-atlantic states
(or other areas that were hit with drought) about your experiences last
season.  If you wouldn't mind answering a few questions, please email me at
the address below.  My deadline for this article is the end of February.

Thanks for all your help.

Joyce
Vic's Chicks
(A Division of Midlife Crisis Enterprises)
Golden, CO
jdeming@worldnet.att.net


From demullis@InfoAve.Net Tue Feb 08 02:32:20 2000
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Cheri,
I would suggest that 10 families would be the upper limit to start with in your position.
I tried subscription farming,  i.e., a CSA a for 2 years with 2 groups of people a few years
ago and we failed at it.  Each group was less than 10 families.  Part of our problem was our
members did not get the idea of a CSA, although we thought we explained it well, and we
basically ended up spending 1/2 a day once a week delivering vegetables.  This may not be a
problem for you since your customers will already be "trained" to subscription farming.
Another mistake that we made was putting exotic vegetables ( which the evil Johnny's catalog
made us order through some kind of mind control in Feb., lol) that no one knew what to do with
it, and then we would hit flat spots and the boxes would contain 4 lbs of okra,  not enough
tomatoes, and too much squash and peppers.
I got a good friend who built up a very successful CSA with between 45 and 50 members @
$525/member.  He is an excellent market gardener, always has a wide variety of stuff, and
plenty of help, both hired and members of his CSA.  2 years ago, he put it on hold and has not
re-started it because it was stressing him out so much.  He elected to sell at farmer's mkts
instead.
I am not trying to discourage you, just sharing my failures and my friend's successes with
this type of farming.
Whatever you decide to do, become a market gardener in some form or fashion.  You will meet
all kinds of people and I think it is a great way to raise kids.

Dean Mullis
Laughing Owl Farm
Richfield, NC


From london@metalab.unc.edu Tue Feb 08 03:49:05 2000
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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 03:07:40 -0500 (EST)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@metalab.unc.edu>
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To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu, permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Using permaculture in market farming and homestead gardening.
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On Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:13:53 +1030, "Wesley
Trotman" <trotmanw@camtech.net.au> wrote:

>I skated around this one a while back, that as Permaculture we seek to
copy
>nature, and we need to set in place closed loop systems for minerals and
>nutrients as well as water and air which often happen without much input
>from us.
<...>
>The quesion is how much can be exported off a farm before the cyles are
>impovrished to the point they shut down?

I know that is what we need to do. I was interested in hearing about ways
to accomplish it. How to implement systems of food production on property
managed through the use of permaculture principles and practices. 

I am thinking of mandala-shaped raised bed gardens linked to one another
in a design similar, visually, to a fractal. This suggests a flow of some
sort, perhaps imitating nature. The energy flows in adjoining, connected
mandala gardens allow throughput of 
nutrients, microorganisms, earthworms and insects, some beneficial.
Cycling of nutrients and water occurs. So it would seem that we may
have accomplished in some part what you are proposing above in
this simple garden. Enter grassways, cover crops, perennials, shrubs,
trees of all sorts and the system becomes much more complex and 
more capable of capturing and recycling nutrients, water and energy.

Putting real effort into designing and building these mandala beds
could make them more productive and more capable of sustaining their
fertility, tilth and soillife. Schemes that use nitrogen fixing plants
extensively throughout, thoroughly integrated with the production beds,
would reduce or nearly eliminate the need for external nitrogen
input. Build plantings utilizing full sun, shade, part shade, filtered
light to create favorable environments for a wide variety of plants
and wildlife; utilize woodland and water impoundment, aquaculture and
aquaponic systems. Thousands of components and possibilities for
creating sustained yields and sustained health of existing and changing
ecosystems. Diversity leads to greater opportunities for
gleaning needed inputs that can originate from within ecosystems.
Red clover planted on compost & rock dust - covered raised beds
can stimulate certain soil fungi to release extra plant-available
nutrients. A keen observer could uncover many more marvels
of this sort to replicate throughout some permaculture systems.

What do you think?

LL

>Ancient farmers made clearing in the forrests, burnt the felled trees and
>planted a crop for one or so years and then moved on. On return many
years
>later regeneration had occurred.

>perhaps this is the only sustainable farming method.

I think we can improve on that.

>Lawrence F. London, Jr. <lflondon@mindspring.com> wrote in message

>> I need to write a mini-FAQ on the topic dealing with the many uses of
>> permaculture principles, concepts and methods in market farming and
>> urban and rural homestead gardening (for self sufficiency). Can anyone
>> offer any information or resources on this topic.


Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
metalab.unc.edu/market-farming Market Farming
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu



From guldann@ix.netcom.com Tue Feb 08 08:03:54 2000
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From: "Hook Family" <guldann@ix.netcom.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Interbay Mulch program
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 08:07:29 -0800
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Does anyone have any info, internet links, or observation about the Interbay
Mulch program developed in Washington State.  Thanks Beth


From bchenkel@conpoint.com Tue Feb 08 08:42:12 2000
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From: Bev & Chuck Henkel <bchenkel@conpoint.com>
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Joyce - I am not sure what you are looking for but Chuck and I have been
doing pasture based farming since July 1995.  We will both be 60 this
year and prior to this our work did not have us together as much as it
has since July 7 1995.  We direct market pastured poultry, pastured
lamb, and butcher hogs that are our composters.  All meat is
hormone,antibiotic free and we have had to develop a cutomer base.  In
the process we have seen gifts the other has for certain asects of the
business and have tried to develop that.  Bev. Henkel


From bchenkel@conpoint.com Tue Feb 08 08:47:39 2000
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this should have gone straight to you and not the list.  Sorry.  Bev.

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Joyce - I am not sure what you are looking for but Chuck and I have been
doing pasture based farming since July 1995.  We will both be 60 this
year and prior to this our work did not have us together as much as it
has since July 7 1995.  We direct market pastured poultry, pastured
lamb, and butcher hogs that are our composters.  All meat is
hormone,antibiotic free and we have had to develop a cutomer base.  In
the process we have seen gifts the other has for certain asects of the
business and have tried to develop that.  Bev. Henkel


---
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From pike@always-online.com Tue Feb 08 09:51:30 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: a promised post:  research on consumers of farmer's markets/local produce
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http://smallfarms.orst.edu/analyzing_three_farmers.htm--scroll on down
to poll taken of consumers for reasons to come to farmers' markets.
Rest of report is interesting also.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/nsfc/2iiia1.htm  "...Today, more people
are realizing the importance of good nutrition in maintaining their
health..."


http://www.briar-cliff.edu/history/Birth.htm --Midwestern Farmers and
the Birth of Modern Consumer Culture in the United States

http://www.joe.org/joe/1996august/rb1.html --Characteristics of
Farmer-To-Consumer Direct Market Customers: An Overview

*******************************

Studies in which you may be interested:

Swanson, R.B. and C.E. Lewis. "Alaskan Direct-Market Consumers:
Perception of Organic Produce." Home Economics Research Journal. Vol.
22, No. 2, pp. 138-155, December 1993. (NAL Call No. TX1.H63)

Bruhn, C.M., P.M. Vossen, E. Chapman, and S. Vaupel. "Consumer
Attitudes Toward Locally Grown Produce." California Agriculture. Vol.
46, No. 1, pp. 13-16, July-August 1992.

Govindasamy, Ramu, Aruna Pingali, John Italia, and Daymon Thatch.
"Consumer Response to State-Sponsored Marketing Programs: The Case of
Jersey Fresh." New Jersey Agricultural Experiment Station, Cooperative
Extension, Rutgers University. P-02137-2-98, February 1998.


Rhodus, Tim, Janet Schwartz, and James Hoskins. "Ohio Consumer
Opinions of Roadside Markets and Farmers' Markets." Department of
Horticulture, Ohio State University, May 1994.

Brooker, J., R. Eastwood, and B. Gray. "Consumers' Perceptions and
Attitudes Regarding Tennessee's New Farmers' Markets." Tennessee Farm
and Home Science. Vol. 168, pp. 14-19, Fall 1993. (NAL Call No.
100-T25F)

Eastwood, David, John Brooker, and Morgan Gray. "An Intrastate
Comparison of Consumers' Patronage of Farmers' Markets in Knox,
Madison, and Shelby Counties." Department of Agricultural Economics
and Rural Sociology, University of Tennessee. Research Report 95-03,
February 1995.

Eastwood, David. "Using Customer Surveys to Promote Farmers' Markets:
A Case Study." Journal of Food Distribution Research. pp. 23-30,
October 1996.

McGrath, M.A., J.F. Sherry, and D.D. Heisley. "An Ethnographic Study
of an Urban Periodic Marketplace: Lessons from the Midville Farmers'
Market." Journal of Retailing. Vol. 69, No. 3, pp. 280-319, Fall 1993.

Packer Fresh Trends. "A Profile of Fresh Produce Consumers." Vance
Publishing Corporation, Overland Park, KS. Vol. XCIX, No. 54, 1998.


Liz





From ymbelluso@yahoo.com Tue Feb 08 09:58:43 2000
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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 06:58:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Belluso <ymbelluso@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: market-farming digest: February 07, 2000
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Hello to All,

I am new to the group and wanted to say thanks for
being here.  So much info in one place is great.  

Question:  I'm looking for a source of seed for bee
forage and cover crop.  My wife and I have about five
acres of tillable land.  I do not have a tractor, so
bailing is not a good option.  Any suggestions would
be appreciated.  Thanks.
mb :-)  ymbelluso@yahoo.com
--- market farming digest
<market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu> wrote:
> market farming Digest for Monday, February 07, 2000.
> 
> 1. Re: aphids
> 2. Soil Blockers
> 3. Help with Water Pump Selection
> 4. Re:  15 Minutes of Fame, Part 2 (fwd)
> 5. Re: 15 Minutes of Fame, Part 2 (fwd)
> 6. Re: electric net fencing/making it work
> 7. Re: Help with Water Pump Selection
> 8. poultry & crops
> 9. Re: Help with Water Pump Selection
> 10. RE: Electric netting
> 11. Chastising on list
> 12. PASA report by John Lozier
> 13. Re: Chastising on list
> 14. Re: Soil Blockers
> 15. lawsuit-shades of Oprah
> 16. Re: electric net fencing/making it work
> 17. Re: electric net fencing/making it work
> 18. Re: 15 Minutes of Fame, Part 2 (fwd)
> 19. Fedco Seeds - Pricing
> 20. New member intro
> 21. Re: 15 Minutes of Fame, Part 2 (fwd)
> 
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Subject: Re: aphids
> From: "MJ Linington" <LNGTN-MJ@acaleph.vista.ac.za>
> Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 08:47:17 +0200
> X-Message-Number: 1
> 
> Hi,
> I'm in South Africa and we do not really use
> greenhouses where I stay 
> since the weather is so nice. However, my roses get
> invested with 
> them. The spray I use I am sure could be regarded as
> "organic" and it 
> is really effective. : I keep my  onion skins from
> my kitchen and 
> when I have a "pot full" I pressure cook them with
> water for about 30 
> minutes. I strain the juice and make it up to 1.5 -
> 2 litres (3-
> 4pints I think). I then spray the aphids with this
> onion juice and it 
> works like a charm. And since it comes from onion's
> I'm sure it would 
> be acceptable as an organic practice.
> 
> Regards
>     Maggi
> Maggi Linington
> email: lngtn-mj@acaleph.vista.ac.za
> 
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Subject: Soil Blockers
> From: "paul bradshaw" <paulb@winsoft.net.au>
> Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 19:13:28 +1100
> X-Message-Number: 2
> 
> I asked about soil blockers on another list and
> received some wonderful
> information, which I am collating and posting to a
> web page together with
> relevant links. Is there anyone here (who hasn't
> already told me) who has
> any good/bad comments about their use, also recipes
> for mixes to use with
> them.
> 
> Is anyone out there using seaweed meal in their seed
> raising mixes? Any
> noticeable benefits?
> 
> This list is a great resource - thanks to all the
> "informants"!!
> 
> 
> Paul Bradshaw - Mudgee - Australia
> 
> Jack Russell Terriers - great mousers/bad gardeners
> 
> 
> 
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Subject: Help with Water Pump Selection
> From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman"
> <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
> Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 07:17:19 -0800
> X-Message-Number: 3
> 
> I'm developing a rainwater collection and delivery
> system for watering as
> much of the 2.25A garden as I can.
> 
> I have a fair-sized barn with a metal roof which
> will shed a lot of water.
> I'll be putting rain gutters in and leading the
> water to drums.
> 
> I need to pump the water out because the garden
> space is HIGHER than the
> water source.
> 
> The water has to go a land distance of less than 400
> feet with a maximum
> rise of 20 feet.
> 
> Any ideas as to what size or type of pump I would
> need?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Rose
> 
> 
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Subject: Re:  15 Minutes of Fame, Part 2 (fwd)
> From: HMSTDFRMS@aol.com
> Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 07:53:01 EST
> X-Message-Number: 4
> 
> Joyce,
> Your article about couples who work together is near
> and dear to my heart. My 
> husband and I began a full time farming career
> together seven years ago after 
> we both left management positions in other careers.
> It's been an interesting 
> transition, and not always an easy one!
> This topic came up at our regional apprentice
> meeting, since several of the 
> apprentices held extremely romantic notions about
> working side-by-side with 
> their "beloved partner".  
> I'd be glad to talk to you sometime.
> Linda Bulson
> Homestead Farms
> Box 24
> Grafton, NY 12082
> 518-279-9867
> 
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Subject: Re: 15 Minutes of Fame, Part 2 (fwd)
> From: Mike Steinberg <mstein@wclynx.com>
> Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 05:47:57 -0800
> X-Message-Number: 5
> 
> My wife and I would be interested in sharing our
> experiences with you. We
> have only been farming for one season-this will be
> our second-but it has
> been a very positive experience so far.
> 
> 
> 
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Subject: Re: electric net fencing/making it work
> From: Allan Balliett <igg@igg.com>
> Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 08:54:12 -0400
> X-Message-Number: 6
> 
> Michaele -
> 
> When we use the netting, it's not to keep the birds
> in, it's to keep 
> the predators OUT! Birds have at least one clipped
> wing. My coments 
> have not had a propensity for escaping from the
> netting. I understand 
> that the birds are even more adapted to the netting
> if they are 
> introduced to it as peeps. At PASA Saturday, Kerry
> Sullivan said that 
> he puts the peeps in the netting hen they are very
> young; they 
> actually run through the netting during the day, but
> stay inside at 
> night.
> 
> We do run our net at 7,000.
> 
> -Allan Balliett
> Claymont Farm
> 
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Allan Balliett <igg@igg.com>
> >To: market farming
> <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
> >Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2000 9:25 AM
> >Subject: Re: electric net fencing
> >
> >
> >>
> >>  Premier Fencing sells this. They have a website,
> but 
=== message truncated ===

=====
Michael & Yolanda Belluso
3889 S. Rte. 115
Kankakee, IL  60901-7184
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

From fsfarm@mufn.org Tue Feb 08 10:07:51 2000
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From: "five springs farm" <fsfarm@mufn.org>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR99014-36389-2000.02.06-15.41.05--fsfarm#mufn.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: An idea (was Re: Lesson learned about floating row cover)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:56:50 -0500
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> Jim and Jo just mentioned they use a 3/4" black plastic pipe as the hoop
and
> use pieces of old garden house like clips to prevent row cover from flying
> away.
>
> Jim and Jo, could you tell us more?
>
> Was I correct in interpreting that the hose pieces act like clips?   yes,
adn they hold up well in our fairly windy conditions. The clips are about 6"
long, one or two on each hoop.
>
> How long are the plastic pipes before you bend them into hoop
> shapes?
about 4' peices work well for our 3' beds, and we place them about every
6-8'
>
> How wide are the rows or beds that these hoops are covering?
>
> Why are you covering them - for frost or insects or both?

both, plus for shade cloth over lettuce in the heat of summer.
>
> Do you fit them over pins that are in the ground, or just push them into
the
> soil?

I have tried both ways, but prefer putting a larger piece in the ground as a
sleeve. 1" black plastic works well, as the 3/4" slips nicely in. The
sleeves are pounded gently into the soil, a process that may work for us
because of our sandy soil...heavier soils may require a more rigid pipe,
like PVC.
>
>
> We're putting together a hoophouse frame - well, as soon as the snow
reveals
> the ground again - and we're using 20' lengths of PVC pipe fitted over
rerod
> (steel reinforcing rod).  But this is a large-ish building and will be
> covered with 6 mil poly.
>


Jim and Jo
The Community Farm Newsletter
http://www.mufn.org/public/tcf
>



From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Tue Feb 08 10:33:42 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Should I Be Concerned?
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 10:32:16 -0800
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I'm looking for "free" mulching materials.  Many of you have suggested wood
chips from utility companies, etc., as well as the bagged leaves from town
collections.

As far as the leaves go...

With people using pesticides on lawns, should I be suspicious about taking
bagged leaves from sources unknown?

How do pesticides react in the compost pile?

Or is this much ado about nothing?

Thanks,

Rose


From sojournr@missouri.org Tue Feb 08 10:39:09 2000
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Michael Belluso wrote:
> 
> Hello to All,
> 
> I am new to the group and wanted to say thanks for
> being here.  So much info in one place is great.
> 
> Question:  I'm looking for a source of seed for bee
> forage and cover crop.  My wife and I have about five
> acres of tillable land.  I do not have a tractor, so
> bailing is not a good option.  Any suggestions would
> be appreciated.  Thanks.
> mb :-)  ymbelluso@yahoo.com

Go to:

http://www.mertus.org/gardening/cat17/frame-cat.html

And look under the heading "grasses" and "Native plants and seeds" for
suppliers.

It depends on what sort of soil you have.  If you're looking for a cover
crop some good choices are buckwheat, clover, and alfalfa.  Of the
three, buckwheat is the easiest to maintain - simply mow once the seed
heads have set and it self-seeds readily.  I don't know if you can do
that with the alfalfa or any of the clovers other than white dutch
clover.  Buckwheat will not fix nitrogen; the clovers and alfalfa do. 
If you have heavy clay soil buckwheat is the best cover crop I have ever
used for improving the soil and preparing for some of the other, better
cover crops (better in improved soil but most won't do near as well in
heavy clay).

Here's the Apis Newsletter website for more info about bees:

http://gnv.ifas.ufl.edu/~mts/APISHTM/apis.htm

An article describing how bees can help increase strawberry crops by
increasing pollination and spreading a beneficial fungus:

http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/pubs/press/1999/bees.html

An article on plantings for bee forage in the pacific NW:

http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/tilth/bees.html

I've got a slew of beekeeping sites if you want them.

Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant

From sojournr@missouri.org Tue Feb 08 10:50:23 2000
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Rose & Fred Lieberman wrote:
> 
> I'm looking for "free" mulching materials.  Many of you have suggested wood
> chips from utility companies, etc., as well as the bagged leaves from town
> collections.
> 
> As far as the leaves go...
> 
> With people using pesticides on lawns, should I be suspicious about taking
> bagged leaves from sources unknown?
> 
> How do pesticides react in the compost pile?
> 
> Or is this much ado about nothing?

You should be safe with leaves - most people in town don't bother to
spray the trees.  They're not likely to pick up much from just laying on
the ground - most people will rake and remove before lawn trucks can get
to them, plus I'm not even sure they're still spraying the lawns at that
time of the year anyway.

Grass clippings - allegedly the lawn chemicals break down in under a
year.  When I was a yup my ex-husband insisted on getting Chem-Lawn.  I
told Chem-Lawn I didn't want the herbicides but only a fertilizer (I
didn't WANT any of it, but the things we do for domestic peace . . .
it's not like he ever mowed the lawn or did any yard work anyway.)

They said they could do that but I've since been told that it was a lie
- they come out with a big huge truck full of the same chemicals that
they spray on EVERYBODY'S lawn, with all the gunk mixed up together.

And I was using those clippings on my garden.  Not to mention run off
and overspray.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Tue Feb 08 11:21:01 2000
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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 11:23:14 -0500
From: Alex McGregor <waldenfarm@sprintmail.com>
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Organization: Walden Farm
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Rose & Fred Lieberman wrote:

> As far as the leaves go...
> With people using pesticides on lawns, should I be suspicious about taking
> bagged leaves from sources unknown?

You should be suspicious. The chemicals are systemic- they are readily absorbed into the
plants' tissues including the tree leaves. There was an article about a year ago in Acres
about the demise of the pecan groves. Heavy fungicide spraying has loaded the soil with
these and the concentrations in the trees are now killing them. They've tried "flushing
out" the chemicals, but they just get reabsorbed from the soil.

So, most of what's being put on lawns winds up in the trees. I suggest selective pickups.
I cruise the neighborhoods looking for non-chemical lawns. I can tell by the diversity in
the plants growing in the lawns. If they're not using herbicides, they're probably not
using other biocides. Anything that's a bright green monocrop- beware!

> How do pesticides react in the compost pile?

All of the pesticides that are long lasting- that is they don't break down fast in the
environment- have been banned for sale in this country (like DDT & Chlordane). So, what
you get from lawns SHOULD break down in a compost pile, given the right conditions. Keep
in mind that the breakdown time claimed by the Chems. is from tests run in a lab under
optimal conditions. It takes longer in the real world.

> Or is this much ado about nothing?

It may be, but I figure it's better to err on the safe side. I farm on 4 1/2 acres
surrounded by suburban development. It's been an educational experience for my neighbors-
living next to an organic farm. I have refused offers of leaves, grass clippings and
brush from those who use Chem-Lawn. I explain to them why and the consequences to the
soil, water, air and wildlife of using chemicals. Some have stopped, but mostly because
of a rash of dead bluebirds in their yards right after Mr. or Ms. Chem-Lawn sprays.

I also suggest that you talk to people who don't use chemicals about hauling away their
yard waste for free. I do this with some and empty, dry and fold their bags and return
them for refilling. Most people are glad their waste gets used. Don't be bashful about
asking.

Happy Composting!
Alex


From guldann@ix.netcom.com Tue Feb 08 11:29:44 2000
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Subject: Re: a promised post:  research on consumers of farmer's markets/local produce
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Instead of this address:

> http://smallfarms.orst.edu/analyzing_three_farmers.htm--scroll on down
> to poll taken of consumers for reasons to come to farmers' markets.
> Rest of report is interesting also.

Try this address I had trouble with above:
http://smallfarms.orst.edu/analyzing_three_farmers.htm


From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Tue Feb 08 11:33:51 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: permaculture,market-farming
Subject: Re: Using permaculture in market farming and homestead
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 10:34:07 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
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References: <LYR98321-36662-2000.02.08-03.49.15--georg#amidanet.com@fra nklin.oit.unc.edu> Re: Using permaculture in market farming and homestead
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On Tue, 08 Feb 2000 07:26:45 -0500, georg parlow <georg@amidanet.com>
wrote:

>
>At 03:07 AM 02/08/2000 -0500, Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote:
>>I am thinking of mandala-shaped raised bed gardens linked to one another
>>in a design similar, visually, to a fractal. This suggests a flow of some
>>sort, perhaps imitating nature. The energy flows in adjoining, connected
>>mandala gardens allow throughput of 
>>nutrients, microorganisms, earthworms and insects, some beneficial.
>
>ok, yes, but i call this matket gardening, how do you apply that to farming
>(growing crops like grain or oilseeds or industrial raw materials)?

Let me readjust the path of this discussion. I didn't say so but meant
by market farming, _small scale_ market farming. 1/100 of an acre to
20-30 acres. The kind of commercial operation that an urban/suburban
or rural homesteader involved in developing his property using
permaculture [rinciples might be involved in. See a back issue of
Taunton's "Kitchen Gardener" to read about a retired man in San
Francisco growing all sorts of produce in raised beds in his small
back yard for sale to upscale gourmet restaurants in SF.
Inspirational. Lots of little market farmers like this person make up
a lot of production on a national or worldwide scale, potentially.

Large scale operations _could_ make use of some of the principles
I suggest for small operations. Self-sufficient home food growing
should use the same methods that a small commercial grower would.
It is a matter of scale - tractors, implements and grading equipment
could be employed to imitate some of these methods on a much larger
scale. That is a different discussion altogether but one I would also
enjoy. For example large equipment could, on large market farms, 
be use to install permaculture systems as well as prepare areas
for food production.

>>Cycling of nutrients and water occurs. So it would seem that we may
>>have accomplished in some part what you are proposing above in
>>this simple garden. Enter grassways, cover crops, perennials, shrubs,
>>trees of all sorts and the system becomes much more complex and 
>>more capable of capturing and recycling nutrients, water and energy.
>
>as the research of the 'synergistic farming' people in france has

Tell me more about synergistic farming.

>scientifically proven, nutrients are never the problem if we keep our soil
>covered with living mulch (emphasis is on 'living' as this keeps the

Do they plant crops in living mulch?
I would like to see a list of cover crops and feed crops that are
compatible when grown in the same location.

>oxygen-ethylene cycles going). i feel sustainability is much more a matter

Can you explain this?

>of the resources we need to produce our crops (hi tech? how much labour?),
>and if we master that - if it is also financially sustainable.

I agree with this. I lean toward maximizing the use of labor intensive
methods and equipment and minimizing the use of gas-powered
equipment. 

Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
metalab.unc.edu/market-farming Market Farming
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu



From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Tue Feb 08 11:43:34 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Definition and Theory (was Re: Using permaculture in market farming and homestead)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:41:44 -0800
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Could someone give me a definition and/or theory about permaculture?

What is permaculture?
What does it do, prevent, etc.?

Rose


From wshoemak@inil.com Tue Feb 08 11:48:22 2000
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From: "Bill Shoemaker" <wshoemak@inil.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Help with Greenhouse
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 10:01:06 -0600
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>I'm about to erect a GH, specifically to start pepper seedlings.
>I understand the bottom heat thing to get them going (or, I may start
>them inside then take them out, covered, to the GH).  But as peppers like
it hot to grow, how would they do in a 55 or 60 degree GH?
>
>Robert.


Starting the seed inside is not as good as bottom heat but is still better
than in a greenhouse that's too cool. Just be sure to put them out in the
greenhouse right away once they begin to emerge. They need the greenhouse
light regime immediately! Just a reminder that peppers are notoriously slow
at germination and emergence. It can take up to two weeks. Don't overwater
during that time because that favors soil borne pathogens. 55 to 60 degrees
in the greenhouse may mean slow growth but that's not necessarily bad.
They'll turn into transplants, they'll just take a little longer.

Bill Shoemaker
Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
Univ of Illinois - St Charles Hort Research Center


From wshoemak@inil.com Tue Feb 08 12:01:20 2000
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From: "Bill Shoemaker" <wshoemak@inil.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Last rock phosphate questions
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:01:38 -0600
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    Sorry about not snipping more but I think the context is very important
here.

    Rock phosphate is NOT 46% phosphate. According to Tisdale & Nelson in
Soil Fertility and Fertilizers, rock phosphate is a mined product that is
ground up and is then from 11.5 to 17.5% phosphorus. To get a higher
concentration can only be done by acidifying it. If it's black, granular and
46% phosphorus, it is triple-super phosphate no matter what anyone tell's
you.

    The US has about 40% of the world's supply of  mineral phosphorus and
most of it is in Florida. So that is where rock phosphate comes from but it
is where rock phosphate is converted to other phosphorus fertilizers as
well.

    I have a small supply of rock phosphate at home and it is a very fine
powder, creamy colored. Using it as a fertilizer is a long-term proposal. It
breaks down rather slowly. But that has it's benefits as over time your
supply in the soil remains adequate. To ensure that your organic soil mix
has available phosphorus, don't use rock phosphate. Just sterilize a batch
of garden soil and add that to your mix. If your garden soil has adequate P,
your mix will too.

Bill Shoemaker
Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops
Univ of Illinois - St Charles Hort Research Center



>I'm away from my reference materials, can't find clear info on the web
>(limited time to search), & really need some expert answers.
>Is rock phosphate also called triple phosphate??
>Does the color vary from mine to mine?
>
>Liz
>
>PS  I went to purchase more rock phosphate at the same location where I got
>my stuff last year.  A new guy was available to help (They said the owner
>was still on vacation, but I think he was hiding in the back!).  I very
>slowly, very plainly explained what I wanted-black rock phosphate from our
>local state mine.  They proceeded to load 14-50# bags.  The clerk began
>filling out the receipt & I looked over her shoulder.  The loaded bags were
>not what I ordered!! It was something else entirely.  I asked if this was
>rock phosphate, & they told me I could call it what ever I wanted.  By this
>time every worker on the dock was watching!  (How embarrassing-this is a
>very redneck area!)  I repeated that this stuff must come from our local
>state mine.  I was again assured that it did.  So I asked to see their
>records of delivery.  Guess what?  Came from Florida, nothing wrong with
>that, but NOT what I ordered.  Why, I asked, when we can get our own,
>BETTER, stuff just 50 miles away,like I did last spring.  Cooporate
>consolidation was the answer.  They were flabbergasted when I kindly (with
>gritted teeth!) requested those bags to be off loaded pronto.  And then, as
>I was leaving, the head guy had the gaul to ask, just what is organic
>farming.  I've got a long row to hoe!!
>
>
>
>---
>You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: wshoemak@inil.com
>To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>


From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Tue Feb 08 12:21:12 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: Re: Definition and Theory (was Re: Using permaculture in market farming and homestead)
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 11:21:26 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm
Reply-To: lflondon@mindspring.com
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On Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:41:44 -0800, "Rose & Fred Lieberman"
<pyrite@clarityconnect.com> wrote:

>Could someone give me a definition and/or theory about permaculture?

>What is permaculture?
>What does it do, prevent, etc.?

See: http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/perma.html
The Permaculture FAQ at ATTRA prepared by Steve Diver

The permaculture mailing list is at:
http://franklin.oit.unc.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=permaculture&text_mode=0

My permaculture page (a good place to start looking for PC resources):
http://metalab.unc.edu/permasphere
Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
metalab.unc.edu/market-farming Market Farming
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu



From lh@pressroom.com Tue Feb 08 12:22:44 2000
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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:22:56 -0500
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: Leigh Hauter <lh@pressroom.com>
Subject: beekeepers


Any other beekeepers on this list?  Though I have been keeping bees and
selling honey for almost 20 years, I have plenty of questions.

From gutierrez-lagatta@home.com Tue Feb 08 12:28:56 2000
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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:28:50
Subject: Re: Definition and Theory (was Re: Using permaculture in market farming and homestead)
To: market-farming
From: "Adriana Gutierrez" <gutierrez-lagatta@home.com>


Rose,
Go to the library and check out the book by Bill Mollison.  As I see it , 
permaculture is primarily concerned with the "landscape planning" of the 
farm.  What crops/animals go where in relation to others and other 
structures and components such as house, barn, lakes, etc to maximize the 
benefits for all.

From cgrowers@guppy.pond.net Tue Feb 08 12:41:43 2000
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Subject: Re: Last rock phosphate questions
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 00 09:52:34 -0800
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>    The US has about 40% of the world's supply of  mineral phosphorus and
>most of it is in Florida. So that is where rock phosphate comes from but it
>is where rock phosphate is converted to other phosphorus fertilizers as
>well.

Just a minor follow up on this point:
US supplies of rock phosphate comes from both Florida and North Carolina. 
NC phosphate is generally called hard rock phosphate, while Fla. product 
may be referred to as pebble phosphate, or even soft rock phosphate. 
These two forms have slightly different chemical formulas, and therefor 
react slightly differently in soil. They also have different Ca contents.

The following is quoted from Fertile Soil by Robert Parnes: "Colloidal 
rock phosphate is a mojor source of phosphorus in organic agriculture. 
When rock phosphate from Florida is mined, a very finely divided 
low-grade ore is removed by washing it away to a settling basin. After 
the water has evaporated, any sediment which has a phosphate content of 
20% or more is sold as an animal feed supplement, and the rest is 
marketed as colloidal phosphate for fertilizer use...Colloidal phosphate 
has about 2% available P compared to 11% for bone meal. Rock P has a 
variable amount of available P, although some is marketed with a 3% 
content." Note that colloidal P generally has 18% P value, but only 2% 
may be available in the soil water at any given time.

Aaron

Creative Growers
Aaron Silverman
88741 Torrence Rd.
Noti, Or. 97461
cgrowers@pond.net
Quality Produce & Pastured Poultry


From mjb@premier1.net Tue Feb 08 12:49:34 2000
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Subject: Re: An idea (was Re: Lesson learned about floating row cover and hoophouses)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:56:11 -0800
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----- Original Message -----
From: five springs farm <fsfarm@mufn.org>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 6:56 AM
Subject: Re: An idea (was Re: Lesson learned about floating row cover)

At times in my valley we can get gusts up to 50mph even in the summer.
I've had gusts pick up my small hoop coop and carry it over a half acre
away! in mid July!  I came from an area that was fairly wind protected and
just did not realize the potential damage these gusts would have on my means
of crop protection.  I used to have portable frames that I would move from
bed to bed with either plastic or row cover of some sort draped over the
hoops. For the times it was windy (a few weeks in the winter) I used the
same method as Jim and Jo. Most of the time a few rocks or soil positioned
in strategic places was all that was needed to keep everything secure.  New
farm and it didn't take me long to see that this method wouldn't work. I
didn't have very good wind blocks.  I went to row covers kept as low to the
ground as possible, anchored securely with rock or wet soil. This worked
well for most crops.  I still needed something for my tomatoes so I
envisioned a hoop house that would be approximatley 20'x150'.  I wanted to
grow in the winter and put tomatoes in  it in the summer.  The following
fall we built it; the pipe slipped over the re-bar that was sunk at least
two feet into the ground.  The plastic was taut over the pipes and cording
was thrown over each side of the pipe  and anchored to another rebar pipe
sunk into the ground.  The plastic was approximately 2 feet longer on each
side of the structure and we buried it.  It was a pretty tight fit.  We
didn't put up a purloin support on the top of the hoop, we ran out of room
before it became dark, so stopped with the idea that we would finish it the
next day from the inside.  It was early November, the worst we feared was a
heavy rainstorm.  We woke up that morning to 12" of wet heavy, snow.  Our
hoop house had collapsed. Although this snow crashed in a lot of roofs and
steel arched greenhouses, it didn't make me feel any better.  When the snow
cleared, we started again, replacing re-bar that had been bent at a 45
degree angle, to say nothing of the pvc pipe twisted and bent into various
angles.  We got it back up, purloins up and it snowed again!  This time we
were able to keep the snow from accumulating too much but the snow stretched
the plastic and left enough of an entry for the winds that reached up to 75
mph that night to balloon the structure and it was ripped to shreds!  I
really wanted this thing to work.  I had heard of a man that had pressurized
air keeping his greenhouse up.  So I did that.  We shortened the structure
to 75'  from the salvaged plastic, dug a trench 2' deep around the entire
thing and buried the plastic.  We sewed a door into one end (using a
sleeping bag zipper) purchased a heavy duty fan to bring air into the house,
wired electricity out to it  and voila!  It was up for a week.  I gave up.
The following summer the hoop house went up again. It had purloins attached
on top.  I decided to try to use the pipe to secure the plastic as Jim and
Jo have described.  I didn't have any the right size to go over the pvc pipe
that I had used so I purchased some flexible hosing one size larger to go
over the pipe.  A minor wind storm and the plastic was on the ground.  I
decided pvc pipe cut in half on a chop saw and sanded seemed the best bet as
this would be a very tight fit.  That had worked well for me before.  Not a
chance.  So purloins went up on the sides.  The plastic attached with lath
to it and we used it for 4 years.
Lessons learned:  Don't fight nature:  the place chosen for the hoophouse
was the worst possible choice for wind (although it was the only place) and
downright impossible for winter growing.
the principles for covering crops changes dramatically with the size of the
structure although lower and smaller houses wouldn't have been damaged as
much, in this location we would have still had problems.
I'm going to try one row only this year of putting wire hoops fairly close
together and using the black flexi pipe slit in half over the entire hoop to
secure the cover.  Maybe that will work for me.  I'm putting in another
greenhouse this year that will be for my warm weathered crops.  It will be
as portable as I can make it, but it will be a greenhouse.  I wish I was in
a place I didn't have to.
Michaele
Growing Things
Carnation Wa


From doodles@netins.net Tue Feb 08 12:51:30 2000
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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 11:51:28 -0800
Subject: Re: beekeepers
From: "Ericka & Rich Dana" <doodles@netins.net>
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My husband Rich is the beekeeper here - I'll forward this to him or you can
write to Rich Dana <erwoodwork@yahoo.com> - we love our bees! We have some
good pics of "bee-wrangling" (his net hat is a 10-gallon) that will go on
our website eventually.
Ericka, Catnip Farm
--The Mighty Oak was once a little nut that held its ground.
----------
>From: Leigh Hauter <lh@pressroom.com>
>To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
>Subject: beekeepers
>Date: Tue, Feb 8, 2000, 9:22 AM
>
> Any other beekeepers on this list?  Though I have been keeping bees and
> selling honey for almost 20 years, I have plenty of questions.

From goodows@excite.com Tue Feb 08 13:36:20 2000
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On Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:22:56 -0500, market farming wrote:

>  Any other beekeepers on this list?  Though I have been keeping bees and
>  selling honey for almost 20 years, I have plenty of questions.

I have been keeping bees for 1 year and have even more questions-just what
you wanted to hear :->. We had quite a few problems the first year with the
2 swarms and swarming and queens dieing and reodering queens and having
requeening fail. But we did get great pollination and far fewer diseases
because of the bees. found them to be really facinating animals too.
>  


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





_______________________________________________________
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From berryman70@yahoo.com Tue Feb 08 13:38:56 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:38:54
Subject: Re: beekeepers
To: market-farming
From: "Don Palmer" <berryman70@yahoo.com>


On 02/08/00, "Leigh Hauter <lh@pressroom.com>" wrote:
> Any other beekeepers on this list? 
 Yes, We have 3 working hives presently and may add another, since we've 
had our own hives (4 years) raspberry & cucurbits production has went up, 
and possibly size and quality of our stawberries have improved. We also 
sell honey at our roadside stand.

Don Palmer
Palmer's Fruits & Vegetables
NY
Homepage: http://www.alltel.net/~dhkp

From cshel@usit.net Tue Feb 08 13:39:10 2000
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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 13:30:54 -0500
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Organization: Sweet Hollow Farm
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Hi,
My husband and boys are beekeepers.  I like to watch :)  Be glad to
answer any questions we can - they are fun to watch and do wonders for
the garden - every garden should have a hive.

Cheri


From fullcircle@jps.net Tue Feb 08 14:42:02 2000
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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:41:46 -0800
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: pastured poultry press release


Since there are so many bird keepers on this list, I thought you'd be
interested.  Visit the ATTRA site when you get a chance, it's worth the
time.

M-


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>owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f
>Comments: Authenticated sender is <annef@ncatark.uark.edu>
>From: "Anne Fantico" <annef@ncatark.uark.edu>
>To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, PasturePoultry@onelist.com
>Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:48:24 -0600
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Subject: pastured poultry press release
>Reply-to: annef@ncatark.uark.edu
>Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
>Precedence: bulk
>
> PRESS RELEASE
>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE 2/8/00
>PASTURED POULTRY EXPANSION IN THE NEW MILLENNIUM
>
>
>   A free report describing the experiences of 35 Southern farm
>   families who participated in a project to produce and market
>   pastured poultry is available from Appropriate Technology Transfer
>   for Rural Areas (ATTRA).
>
>   Titled "Pastured Poultry," the 40-page report focuses on events
>   from 1996-99 of the project, "Integration of Pastured Poultry
>   Production Into The Farming Systems of Limited Resource Farmers."
>   The report is chock full of information useful to farmers
>   considering pastured poultry as an enterprise.  Included are
>   firsthand accounts of participating farmers and data on the
>   intricacies of pen-building, brooding, feeding, processing,
>   marketing, legal matters, economics, and a host of other topics.
>
>   The project was conducted by Heifer Project International (HPI),
>   along with the National Center for Appropriate Technology (NCAT),
>   which manages ATTRA.  It was funded by the USDA Sustainable
>   Agriculture Research and Education (SARE) program.
>
>The Salatin model
>
>  "The project employed the methods of Joel Salatin, author of
>   Pastured Poultry Profits:
>   Net $25,000 in 6 Months on 20 Acres," says Anne Fanatico of NCAT,
>   outreach coordinator for the project.  "Features of pastured
>   poultry include keeping the chickens in field pens that are moved
>   daily to fresh pasture and feeding non-medicated feed.  Farmers
>   capture profits by adding value through on-farm slaughter and
>   direct marketing to local customers."
>
>   Over the course of the project, HPI and other project cooperators
>   provided about 40 hands-on training sessions throughout the South.
>   Several landgrant universities (Southern, Kentucky State, South
>   Carolina State, Florida A&M, and Fort Valley State) were involved
>   through demonstration sites or Extension agents who helped provide
>   technical support to pastured poultry producers in their areas.
>
>   An important development of the project was formation of the
>   American Pastured Poultry Producers Association (APPPA).  With a
>   current membership of 400 people,  APPPA publishes a quarterly
>   newsletter called Grit! and serves as a networking tool for
>   producers.
>
>   "Limited resource farmers need agricultural enterprises that will
>   allow them to start small and gradually build the operation as
>   needed, without incurring substantial debt," Fanatico says.
>   "Pastured poultry increases pasture fertility through manure
>   deposition and integrates well with cattle or sheep production.
>   However, pastured poultry is a high-labor enterprise, profits may
>   not be high initially for small-scale start-ups, and beginners have
>   a lot to learn about brooding, production on pasture, and
>   processing."
>
>   Marketing the birds was not a problem for the producers.  According
>   to Kentucky farmers Albert and Sheila Baker, "This year we plan on
>   growing at least 200 chickens.  Most people, once they tasted our
>   chicken, placed orders for more."
>
>   Don Wilkinson of South Carolina says, "The project has been almost
>   fun the whole way along-one of the few agricultural enterprises
>   I've tried that I can say that of."
>
>New project
>
>   As an outgrowth of the project, HPI and NCAT have launched another
>   SARE project to address bottlenecks for expanding range poultry
>   businesses.
>
>  "Many producers are happy to stay at a small-scale level of pastured
>  poultry production but others involved in the project see great
>  potential for commercializing range poultry production on a larger
>  scale to reach more consumers and generate more profits," Fanatico
>  says.
>
>   She explains that a lack of access to government-inspected
>   processing facilities is a major bottleneck for the range poultry
>   industry.  Since the plants owned by large integrated poultry
>   companies do not serve independent producers, some producers
>   establish their own processing plants.  Government-inspected mobile
>   processing units (MPUs) are an option that HPI will examine to help
>   spread the risk of investment and serve cooperative groups of
>   farmers.  HPI plans to develop MPU prototypes in Kentucky, Alabama,
>   and Mississippi.
>
>   Another bottleneck is a lack of business training for many farmers.
>    When a substantial investment is needed, business planning,
>   feasibility work and marketing plans become crucial.
>
>   According to Luke Elliott, an Arkansas pastured poultry producer
>   and owner of a small USDA-inspected processing plant, "It can be
>   easy to market your first 1000-1500 birds directly off the farm.
>   People actually seek you out and come to the farm.  Beyond that, it
>   is important to develop a marketing plan, to work with other
>   producers, and to make certain of the legality of your situation."
>
>   Under the new project titled "Enhancing Feasibility for Range
>   Poultry Expansion," NCAT is partnering with HPI to develop a
>   feasibility toolbox to address these needs-the toolbox will be
>   available to farmers in the future.
>
>   As a kick-off for assessing the needs of producers and associates
>   interested in expanding range poultry production, NCAT has prepared
>   a survey about such topics as the needs for feasibility, obtaining
>   reliable poultry stock and feed/nutritional needs.
>
>   People wishing to participate in the survey or obtain a free copy
>   of "Pastured Poultry," please call ATTRA from 8:30 a.m. to 4:30
>   p.m. Monday through Thursday and 8:30 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. Friday
>   (Central Time Zone)  at 800-346-9140.
>
>   To join the American Pastured Poultry Producers Association, send
>   $20 to APPPA, c/o Diane Kaufman, 5207 70th St., Chippewa Falls, WI
>   54729 (telephone: 715-723-2293, email: APPPA_Grit@yahoo.com).
>
>   For more information about HPI and NCAT, visit the websites:
>   www.heifer.org or www.ncat.org.  Based at Little Rock, AR, HPI is
>   an international non-profit corporation dedicated to community
>   development through sustainable livestock production.  NCAT, with
>   offices in Fayetteville, AR, is a national nonprofit organization
>   focusing on sustainable agriculture and rural community
>   development.  NCAT's ATTRA program, a sustainable agriculture
>   information center, has a website at www.attra.org.
>
>   People interested in pastured poultry are also invited to contact
>   Anne Fanatico at NCAT/ATTRA; P.O. Box 3657; Fayetteville, AR
>   72701, 800-346-9140 or Steve Muntz at HPI, 110 North Maysville St.,
>   Suite 100, Mt. Sterling, KY  40353, 800-359-9581.  ATTRA also
>   provides a general publication on sustainable chicken production.
>
>
>
>
>To Unsubscribe:  Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command
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>

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From london@metalab.unc.edu Tue Feb 08 15:24:12 2000
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Lawrence F. London, Jr.  Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:48:24 -0600
From: Anne Fantico <annef@ncatark.uark.edu>
To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu, PasturePoultry@onelist.com
Subject: pastured poultry press release

 PRESS RELEASE
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE 2/8/00
PASTURED POULTRY EXPANSION IN THE NEW MILLENNIUM


   A free report describing the experiences of 35 Southern farm
   families who participated in a project to produce and market
   pastured poultry is available from Appropriate Technology Transfer
   for Rural Areas (ATTRA).

   Titled "Pastured Poultry," the 40-page report focuses on events
   from 1996-99 of the project, "Integration of Pastured Poultry
   Production Into The Farming Systems of Limited Resource Farmers." 
   The report is chock full of information useful to farmers
   considering pastured poultry as an enterprise.  Included are
   firsthand accounts of participating farmers and data on the
   intricacies of pen-building, brooding, feeding, processing,
   marketing, legal matters, economics, and a host of other topics.

   The project was conducted by Heifer Project International (HPI),
   along with the National Center for Appropriate Technology (NCAT),
   which manages ATTRA.  It was funded by the USDA Sustainable
   Agriculture Research and Education (SARE) program.

The Salatin model

  "The project employed the methods of Joel Salatin, author of
   Pastured Poultry Profits: 
   Net $25,000 in 6 Months on 20 Acres," says Anne Fanatico of NCAT,
   outreach coordinator for the project.  "Features of pastured 
   poultry include keeping the chickens in field pens that are moved 
   daily to fresh pasture and feeding non-medicated feed.  Farmers 
   capture profits by adding value through on-farm slaughter and 
   direct marketing to local customers."

   Over the course of the project, HPI and other project cooperators
   provided about 40 hands-on training sessions throughout the South. 
   Several landgrant universities (Southern, Kentucky State, South
   Carolina State, Florida A&M, and Fort Valley State) were involved
   through demonstration sites or Extension agents who helped provide
   technical support to pastured poultry producers in their areas.

   An important development of the project was formation of the
   American Pastured Poultry Producers Association (APPPA).  With a
   current membership of 400 people,  APPPA publishes a quarterly
   newsletter called Grit! and serves as a networking tool for
   producers.  

   "Limited resource farmers need agricultural enterprises that will
   allow them to start small and gradually build the operation as
   needed, without incurring substantial debt," Fanatico says. 
   "Pastured poultry increases pasture fertility through manure
   deposition and integrates well with cattle or sheep production. 
   However, pastured poultry is a high-labor enterprise, profits may
   not be high initially for small-scale start-ups, and beginners have
   a lot to learn about brooding, production on pasture, and
   processing."

   Marketing the birds was not a problem for the producers.  According
   to Kentucky farmers Albert and Sheila Baker, "This year we plan on
   growing at least 200 chickens.  Most people, once they tasted our
   chicken, placed orders for more."  

   Don Wilkinson of South Carolina says, "The project has been almost
   fun the whole way along-one of the few agricultural enterprises
   I've tried that I can say that of."

New project

   As an outgrowth of the project, HPI and NCAT have launched another
   SARE project to address bottlenecks for expanding range poultry
   businesses.

  "Many producers are happy to stay at a small-scale level of pastured
  poultry production but others involved in the project see great
  potential for commercializing range poultry production on a larger
  scale to reach more consumers and generate more profits," Fanatico
  says.

   She explains that a lack of access to government-inspected
   processing facilities is a major bottleneck for the range poultry
   industry.  Since the plants owned by large integrated poultry
   companies do not serve independent producers, some producers
   establish their own processing plants.  Government-inspected mobile
   processing units (MPUs) are an option that HPI will examine to help
   spread the risk of investment and serve cooperative groups of
   farmers.  HPI plans to develop MPU prototypes in Kentucky, Alabama,
   and Mississippi.

   Another bottleneck is a lack of business training for many farmers.
    When a substantial investment is needed, business planning,
   feasibility work and marketing plans become crucial.

   According to Luke Elliott, an Arkansas pastured poultry producer
   and owner of a small USDA-inspected processing plant, "It can be
   easy to market your first 1000-1500 birds directly off the farm. 
   People actually seek you out and come to the farm.  Beyond that, it
   is important to develop a marketing plan, to work with other
   producers, and to make certain of the legality of your situation."

   Under the new project titled "Enhancing Feasibility for Range
   Poultry Expansion," NCAT is partnering with HPI to develop a
   feasibility toolbox to address these needs-the toolbox will be
   available to farmers in the future.

   As a kick-off for assessing the needs of producers and associates
   interested in expanding range poultry production, NCAT has prepared
   a survey about such topics as the needs for feasibility, obtaining
   reliable poultry stock and feed/nutritional needs.

   People wishing to participate in the survey or obtain a free copy
   of "Pastured Poultry," please call ATTRA from 8:30 a.m. to 4:30
   p.m. Monday through Thursday and 8:30 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. Friday
   (Central Time Zone)  at 800-346-9140.

   To join the American Pastured Poultry Producers Association, send
   $20 to APPPA, c/o Diane Kaufman, 5207 70th St., Chippewa Falls, WI 
   54729 (telephone: 715-723-2293, email: APPPA_Grit@yahoo.com).

   For more information about HPI and NCAT, visit the websites: 
   www.heifer.org or www.ncat.org.  Based at Little Rock, AR, HPI is
   an international non-profit corporation dedicated to community
   development through sustainable livestock production.  NCAT, with
   offices in Fayetteville, AR, is a national nonprofit organization
   focusing on sustainable agriculture and rural community
   development.  NCAT's ATTRA program, a sustainable agriculture
   information center, has a website at www.attra.org.

   People interested in pastured poultry are also invited to contact
   Anne Fanatico at NCAT/ATTRA; P.O. Box 3657; Fayetteville, AR 
   72701, 800-346-9140 or Steve Muntz at HPI, 110 North Maysville St.,
   Suite 100, Mt. Sterling, KY  40353, 800-359-9581.  ATTRA also
   provides a general publication on sustainable chicken production.




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From doodles@netins.net Tue Feb 08 16:22:23 2000
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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 14:09:57 -0800
Subject: More 20/20 response info!
From: "Ericka & Rich Dana" <doodles@netins.net>
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From Charlotte at the Center for Food Safety (the good folks who have the 
lawsuit against the FDA for GE labeling, etc.).

Ericka
--The Mighty Oak was once a little nut that held its ground.
----------
From: Charlotte Arnold
To: "'Ericka & Rich Dana'" <doodles@netins.net>
Subject: RE: 20/20 - unbelievable!
Date: Tue, Feb 8, 2000, 11:44 AM

Ericka--

Thanks for calling and for all of the info.  I spoke with Joe, our legal
director.  He was aware of the story, but not any actions in response.  I
gathered some ABC information for you--names, fax numbers, etc.  I'll have
to get back to you re: ABC sponsors.

ABC NEWS
ABC, Inc.
47 West 66th St.
New York, NY 10023

Tel: 212.456.7777
Fax: 212.456.2213

Write to:
Roone Arledge, Chairman
David Westin, President
Richard C. Wald, Sr. Vice President, ABC News
Alan Wurtzel, Sr. Vice President, Magazine Broadcasts


20/20
147 Columbus Ave.
10th Flr.
New York NY 10023

Tel: 212.456.2020
Fax: 212.456.2969
Fax: 212.456.6114

Write to:
Victor Neufeld, Executive Producer
David Sloan, Sr. Producer
David Tabacoff, Sr. Producer
Meredith White, Sr. Producer
Geralyn Lucas, Associate Producer and Story Editor


More soon!
C-

--The Mighty Oak was once a little nut that held its ground.


From lflondon@mindspring.com Tue Feb 08 16:40:01 2000
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	Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:39:58 -0500 (EST)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
To: permaculture@franklin.oit.unc.edu, market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Using permaculture in market farming and homestead gardening.
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 15:40:02 -0500
Organization: Venaura Farm -|- InterGarden
Reply-To: lflondon@mindspring.com, london@metalab.unc.edu
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On 8 Feb 2000 17:56:01 GMT, in alt.permaculture hemenway@jeffnet.org
(Toby Hemenway) wrote:

In article <__On4.20851$3b6.88289@ozemail.com.au>, "Wesley Trotman"
<trotmanw@<nospam>camtech.net.au> wrote:

>=20
> Ancient farmers made clearing in the forrests, burnt the felled trees =
and
> planted a crop for one or so years and then moved on. On return many =
years
> later regeneration had occurred.
>=20
I've been studying about slash-and-burn agriculture (technically
called
swidden and fallow) because I'd heard hints that it was actually a
good
deal more complicated, and permacultural than that. Here's how it
works,
at least in South America: To pick an arbitrary beginning point in the
cycle, people would cut down a small chunk of forest, 1-5 hectares,
often
saving the nitrogen-fixing trees and certain good construction timber.
They'd let the slash dry,then burn it and plant. The planting was
polycultural, based at first on annual staple like cassava or yam or
maize, with an N-fixer like peanuts as well. They'd also plant seeds
and
seedlings of perennial shrubs, vines, and trees: pineapple, banana,
peach
palm, guava, coca, avocado, about 20-30 species. They'd work the
annuals
for a few years, and by then the pineapples or other small perennials
were
coming on. They'd coppice the young trees for fuel and baskets (Inga
was a
common one in the Amazon, a N-fixer that coppices well and yields "ice
cream beans" for fruit). As the big trees began to bear, they'd give
up on
the annuals, which were shaded out by then, and they'd harvest fruit
and
other tree crops. In 20 years or so the whole patch would lose
productivity from shade, and get too tall to harvest, and the people
would
move on, letting it go fallow for 10-20 years. They'd usually have 2-4
of
these swiddens at different stages going at once.

Very permacultural; not at all what they teach in school as that
backward,
slash-and-burn technique that's destroying the Amazon. These guys knew
what they were doing. We just didn't understand how sophisticated and
sustainable (at least with small populations) it was until recently.
Anthropologists only saw people "farming" in the new swiddens; they
mistook the older swiddens for forest, since they were clueless about
tree
crops. In a sense, permaculture is modeled on these systems. I'd love
to
see us create our own using temperate plants.

Perhaps this is a way to do market farming: start with an annual cash
crop
that keeps you going until the trees come on.

Toby

--=20
Toby Hemenway
hemenway@jeffnet.org

Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden      =20
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere      =20
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
metalab.unc.edu/market-farming Market Farming
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu



From goodearth@rockbridge.net Tue Feb 08 17:05:53 2000
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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 16:51:19 -0500
Subject: cover crop mixes for poultry/vegetable multi-cropping
From: "Andy Lee & Pat Foreman" <goodearth@rockbridge.net>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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> We've now settled on mixes of grains & annual rye, for several reasons.
> This type of mix can be either grazed by other animals early in the
> spring to maintain grazing height, or mowed. Either treatment may
> stimulate the grains to "tiller"out, enhancing root growth & additional
> leaf growth. Cereal rye has some alleleopathic effects on weed seeds,
> diminishing their ability to germinate. This type of mix may also be
> established much later in the season, an important aspect in a climate
> that often sees little precipitation during the growing season until well
> into October when light levels are much diminished.

Aaron, your choice is well thought out, and I wonder if you've considered
the "permaculture guild" as a guide for cover cropping. The guild can call
for 3 or more plants, one with a lot of biomass, one with a lot of height
and carbon, and the third as a N fixer. Do you see any cover crop
combinations that will result in this kind of synergy?

Thanks,

Andy Lee

From goodearth@rockbridge.net Tue Feb 08 17:05:55 2000
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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 17:00:46 -0500
Subject: electric netting
From: "Andy Lee & Pat Foreman" <goodearth@rockbridge.net>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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> escape.  The amount of damage an escapee flock can do on a bed of chard is
> disheartening, which is why I only use poultry netting on the broilers now.
> I've heard that it is used successfully with layers from others, I haven't
> really quizzed to find out exactly how.
> You say you keep your charger at 7000.  Being someone who does thing by feel
> so to speak, how do you measure that?  A voltage regulator?  I'm not sure I
> understand.  The charger I have just sets out a certain amount, can you
> change the amount going out, or is it like I've done, by just shortening the
> fence?  Do you have a specific charger you use?

The charger will put out a steady pulse, but the fence may be sagging
somewhere and grounding out. Depending on the amount of current lost to the
grounding out is whether you have enough charge to keep them in. I keep a
little 5 bulb tester in the tool box of my tractor to test things from time
to time.

But, when I'm in a hurry and away from the tractor I use the touch test. I
wear leather boots with synthetic soles so even a full charge from the fence
doesn't hurt all that bad. However, if you put your knee on the ground, then
touch the fence, you will get an idea of how powerful it really is. And, if
you weigh 200 pounds like I do, and it hurts that much, then you can almost
feel sorry for a five pound hen who gets shocked.

Yes, the trick is to start the hens or broilers or turkeys at the earliest
possible age, and clip one wing while they are still in the brooder, before
they even learn they can fly.

Thanks,

Andy Lee

From goodearth@rockbridge.net Tue Feb 08 17:05:57 2000
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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 17:11:36 -0500
Subject: new farmer needs info
From: "Andy Lee & Pat Foreman" <goodearth@rockbridge.net>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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>

> I am desperate for information.  I am thinking we should start with 10
> families and take names for a waiting list or to call if we have an
> abundance of produce.  I am at a loss as to how to plant for large
> numbers of people.
>
>
> Can you recommend any other books?  How do you figure ratio of how much
> to plant vs. how many people you are growing for?

Thank you for the kind words about my book. However, mine may not be the
guide you need. A new book is recently out, the author is Elizabeth
Henderson and it tells the whole CSA story from Robyn Van En right up to
now. I haven't received my copy yet, but I know the author and can assure
you she will tell the whole story about CSA, and I'm sure you'll see from
her book that your fears are well founded. To go from part time kitchen
gardener to full time CSA farmer without proper training is a terrific
undertaking.

However, you have a wonderful opportunity being offered in an established 45
member CSA customer list, so perhaps there's another way you can do it.
Maybe with a partner? Or, by hiring a senior apprentice who has worked a
full year on a similar size CSA? By the way, I met a group of senior
apprentices at UC Santa Cruz last month, any one of whom would be a great
garden manager for you.

If you have 45 customers each paying $400 (just guessing) then the income
may be enough to support you part time and a senior apprentice for the
season full time.

Just some thoughts, good luck with your challenge.

Andy Lee

From glenn@smallfarms.com Tue Feb 08 18:14:05 2000
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Hey Andy,

> But, when I'm in a hurry and away from the tractor I use the touch test. I
> wear leather boots with synthetic soles so even a full charge from the fence
> doesn't hurt all that bad.

An old rancher taught me to take a blade of dry grass or a twig,
anything organic will do.  Hold the blade of grass in your fingers and
touch the wire with it.  Slowly feed the blade of grass toward the
wire.  If the fence is on, the pulse won't be as severe.  Go....very... 
slow..ly.

glenn
Buy from the Farmer
http://www.smallfarms.com

From doodles@netins.net Tue Feb 08 18:23:53 2000
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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 17:23:51 -0800
Subject: Re: More 15 Minutes of Fame
From: "Ericka & Rich Dana" <doodles@netins.net>
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We had severe drought, heat and insect infestations here in SE Iowa -
Ericka Dana
Catnip Farm (small,diversified, organic, market, CSA & wholesale)

--The Mighty Oak was once a little nut that held its ground.


----------
>From: Joyce Deming <JDEMING@worldnet.att.net>
>To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
>Subject: More 15 Minutes of Fame
>Date: Mon, Feb 7, 2000, 10:34 PM
>

> Thanks to everyone who responded to my email request that Lawrence London
> forwarded to the list regarding couples working together.  I'll be following
> up with a list of questions in a month or so to everyone who responded.
>
> In the meantime, I'm working on another article for Growing for Market, this
> one about dealing with drought.  From what I heard on the news, folks in the
> eastern U.S. had a pretty rough go of it last season.  (I've lived in
> Colorado all my life and it's hard to realize that there are actually places
> in the country where people don't have to irrigate all season long!)  I'd
> like to talk to market gardeners in the northeast and mid-atlantic states
> (or other areas that were hit with drought) about your experiences last
> season.  If you wouldn't mind answering a few questions, please email me at
> the address below.  My deadline for this article is the end of February.
>
> Thanks for all your help.
>
> Joyce
> Vic's Chicks
> (A Division of Midlife Crisis Enterprises)
> Golden, CO
> jdeming@worldnet.att.net
>
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: doodles@netins.net
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')

From fullcircle@jps.net Tue Feb 08 18:30:39 2000
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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 15:30:15 -0800
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Full Circle Organic Farm Tools


In response to several questions about cultural practices here at Full
Circle, here's an overview.  As you can see, we try for a balance between
our physical labor and effective production practices for our climate and
market conditions.

We use a tractor and a spader to create semi-permanent raised beds.
Mostly, we turn in the cover crop in the Spring.  We use a U-bar frequently
between crops.

When we were beginning, I used a BCS and a plow to shape beds.  I
companion-planted and mix-cropped beds.  As we got to the 2 acre plus
catagory with 3 farmers markets per week, sales to natural foods stores and
restaurants, we bought a 27 hp tractor, a Falc spader, picked up two
steel-purlined, hoop houses, and dropped the companion planting.  Our CSA
was added later.

Because we're organic, we use weed whackers and a sickle bar on the BCS for
gross weed control in the Spring.  We weed between the beds with either a
Red Dragon Flamer or a hoe depending on how far along the weeds have
gotten.  Beds themselves seldom need weeding.  We try to get a full canopy
established to shade them out.

We grow all our own transplants plus some for a couple of other farms.  We
have double-walled plastic on the green houses two 20' x 48'.  We use a
squirrel-cage fan to blow air between the layers of plastic to help prevent
heat loss at night.  We have four heating mats for starting seeds, this
covers an entire 4' x 8' bench in one house.  We use plain ol' florescent
shop lights for lighting.  They're suspended by chain from the top purlin
and are adjustable as the seedlings grow.  We mix our own soilless, low N
mix in an old cement mixer - it's roughly equal parts peat, vermiculite,
and perlite with compost, humates, and rock powders.  We foliar with
soluable fish, kelp, and corn calcium.  Seeds not started on the mats are
grown in speedlings.

We irrigate off our domestic well using 3/4' electric valves, t-tape above
ground, and a Toro controller.

We rarely have insect problems.  Biggest pest (bedside the neighbors dogs)
are squash bugs.  We usually hand pick those as we pick squash.  There's
the occasional flea beetle invasion (row covers) and once in a while the
aphids out strip the abundant natural preditors (soap)

I'm the full-time farmer.  We're not on ancestoral land, so we have a
California mortgage and Lee works off-farm.  We normally have a part-time
apprentice and a couple of work-share helpers.  We don't do critters, not
enough of me to go around.

There's your snap shot.



Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From danielrash@msn.com Tue Feb 08 20:10:38 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 20:10:37
Subject: Re: Soil Blockers
To: market-farming
From: "Rita Rash" <danielrash@msn.com>


If you don't have the page set up yet, could you email me some of the 
recipies for blocks you have received? I've been told to get Coleman's 
book, but they copies around my local libraries are all out and I need to 
plant seeds this weekend. Need to just buy his book, but was hoping to put 
that off until some income was coming in.

From danielrash@msn.com Tue Feb 08 21:11:20 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 21:11:17
Subject: Plastic slitted rowcover
To: market-farming
From: "Rita Rash" <danielrash@msn.com>


I was getting ready to order this stuff from Peaceful Valley since they had 
the best price I had found so far. Then I got a catalog from G&M 
Agricultural in the mail yesterday and they have something similar, but 
much cheaper. So much cheaper that I'm wondering how well it works.

The slitted stuff opens as the air under the tunnel heats up, and closes as 
it cools. The stuff from G&M though has a 2 inch wide strip of 3/8 inch 
holes every 3 inches. Since it is just holes, I'm wondering if it works as 
well as the slitted stuff. It doesn't seem like it would heat up as well. 
On a sunny day, that wouldn't be an issue, but on a cool rainy day it could 
make a significant difference I would think. Then again the way the weather 
has been going, we may not have any cool rainy days again!

Anyone done any comparison of these two types? How about reusing it? Seems 
to me that if it is only in use for a few weeks, the plastic shouldn't 
deteriorate too much and it might be reuseable.

Also what kinds of problems do you have with the wind? Is it anyworse than 
"cloth" rowcover? I'm thinking it might have problems since it essentially 
has rips in it for the wind to grab.

Thanks in advance, Rita

From mjb@premier1.net Tue Feb 08 21:44:28 2000
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From: "Michaele Blakely" <mjb@premier1.net>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR98946-36879-2000.02.08-21.11.20--mjb#premier1.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Plastic slitted rowcover
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:51:53 -0800
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----- Original Message -----
From: Rita Rash <danielrash@msn.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 9:11 PM
Subject: Plastic slitted rowcover


.Rita:
I ordered the slitted plastic last year.  Instead of sending that, the holey
stuff came.  I didn't find out until after my interns had put some up.  It
does not work as well as the slitted plastic.  I will re-order this year and
make sure it's slitted before it's cut.
>
> The slitted stuff opens as the air under the tunnel heats up, and closes
as
> it cools. The stuff from G&M though has a 2 inch wide strip of 3/8 inch
> holes every 3 inches. Since it is just holes, I'm wondering if it works as
> well as the slitted stuff. It doesn't seem like it would heat up as well.
> On a sunny day, that wouldn't be an issue, but on a cool rainy day it
could

> Anyone done any comparison of these two types? How about reusing it? Seems
> to me that if it is only in use for a few weeks, the plastic shouldn't
> deteriorate too much and it might be reuseable.

Here in the northwest, I use it all season long since we need as many heat
units as we can get.  What we take off has been re-used.  It's a pain though
if you are using very much.
>
> Also what kinds of problems do you have with the wind? Is it anyworse than
> "cloth" rowcover? I'm thinking it might have problems since it essentially
> has rips in it for the wind to grab.

It actually stayed up better than rowcover. 1.  the rows were more protected
than some because of other crops growing aside.
2.  the plastic forms around the wire hoops during the heat and seems to
stay longer than a row cover would.
3.  we buried it all along the sides, that really helped.

the other disappointment about the holey plastic was that it wasn't as wide
as I had thought I had ordered.  Double check that.  We had to make our beds
skinnier than we usually do to accomadate this stuff.
Michaele
Growing Things
Carnation WA
> >
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: mjb@premier1.net
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>


From danielrash@msn.com Tue Feb 08 21:55:22 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 21:55:19
Subject: Re: Plastic slitted rowcover
To: market-farming
From: "Rita Rash" <danielrash@msn.com>


What do you mean when you say it doesn't work as well? It doesn't heat up 
as well, or vent as well?

Something I forgot to ask...We are planning to use Agribon with the plastic 
for frost protection. Do you do that? If so, do you put the Agribon under 
the plastic or on top?
Rita

From mjb@premier1.net Tue Feb 08 23:27:46 2000
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References: <LYR98946-36885-2000.02.08-21.55.21--mjb#premier1.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Plastic slitted rowcover
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----- Original Message -----
From: Rita Rash <danielrash@msn.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 9:55 PM
Subject: Re: Plastic slitted rowcover


> What do you mean when you say it doesn't work as well? It doesn't heat up
> as well, or vent as well?  It didn't seem to heat up as well, so don't
know about the venting aspects.  I was happy with the slitted plastic I had
used.  Of course after thinking about this, it was a very cool year for us.
The holey stuff worked okay, but not as well as I remembered the slitted
plastic working.
>
> Something I forgot to ask...We are planning to use Agribon with the
plastic
> for frost protection. Do you do that? If so, do you put the Agribon under
> the plastic or on top?  No, I just use row covers for the cool times,  I
used the slitted plastic for basil, melons things like that, they are put
out when temps are getting warm, although I haven't done melons with that
for awhile.  This year they will be in the greenhouse.  A few years when I
had peas going and the temp dropped into the 20's I filled jugs with water
and placed them under plastic cloches I had.  This was a small area, about
500 sq ft.  I wouldn't do it now.
> Rita
>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: mjb@premier1.net
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
$subst('Email.Unsub')
>


From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Wed Feb 09 09:55:32 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Strawberries
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 09:53:49 -0800
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Hi, folks.  Rose in upstate NY, Zone 5.

I'm growing strawberries this year, for the first time, to give us enough
for home and to add to our "menu" at the farmers markets, along with our
cutflowers and veggies.

If anyone would like to share what they know about strawberries, I'd really
appreciate it...

1.    growing
2.    maintenance and disease and pest management
3.    harvesting
4.    selling and pricing
5.    what's productivity like  (I know it varies by a gazillion factors,
but what's ballpark?  1 pint per 5 plants, 10 plants, 2 plants...)

From what I know as appropriate for my area, I have to go with an early
season cultivar to get harvest timed around the tarnished plant bug's
activity.  Has anyone grown Earliglow or Northeaster?

Thanks,

Rose



From limerock@thirdplanet.net Wed Feb 09 10:20:44 2000
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Subject: Re:  Tom & Kathy Burris 
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 10:20:13 -0500
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Hello  -- =20

I also have a small farm and roadside market in North Ohio (Port Clinton =
area).  If you (or any one else) are nearby, possibly we could swap =
notes. =20

--  Tom  (Limerock Orchards)

limerock@thirdplanet.net

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Tom Kathy Burris=20
  To: market farming=20
  Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 10:19 AM


  Hello

  How do I post a message I'm looking for information on a garden =
planter.

  So fair I have really gotten lots of good information from just =
reading the messages on my email,,,lots of them are coming everyday.

  Thanks s so much for having your site. I farm about ten acres in =
Northern Ohio and market at one farmers market and my road side stand.

  Happy farming,

  Tom



  May you find a clear path on your road of life, hang on and enjoy the =
ride.=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
  Do You Yahoo!?
  Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.

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<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2>Hello&nbsp; --&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2>I also have a small farm and roadside =
market in=20
North Ohio (Port Clinton area).&nbsp; If you&nbsp;(or any one else) are =
nearby,=20
possibly we could swap notes.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2>--&nbsp; Tom&nbsp; (Limerock=20
Orchards)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:limerock@thirdplanet.net">limerock@thirdplanet.net</A></FO=
NT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:tom_kat_1974@yahoo.com" =
title=3Dtom_kat_1974@yahoo.com>Tom Kathy=20
  Burris</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu"=20
  title=3Dmarket-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>market farming</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, January 30, 2000 =
10:19=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <P>Hello</P>
  <P>How do I post a message I'm looking for information on a garden=20
planter.</P>
  <P>So fair I have really gotten lots of good information from just =
reading the=20
  messages on my email,,,lots of them are coming everyday.</P>
  <P>Thanks s so much for having your site. I farm about ten acres in =
Northern=20
  Ohio and market at one farmers market and my road side stand.</P>
  <P>Happy farming,</P>
  <P>Tom</P><BR><BR>May you find a clear path on your road of life, hang =
on and=20
  enjoy the ride. <BR>
  <HR SIZE=3D1>
  <B>Do You Yahoo!?</B><BR>Talk to your friends online with <A=20
  href=3D"http://im.yahoo.com/">Yahoo! =
Messenger</A>.</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0036_01BF72E7.40C61B40--


From sojournr@missouri.org Wed Feb 09 10:21:42 2000
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Strawberries
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Rose & Fred Lieberman wrote:
> 
> Hi, folks.  Rose in upstate NY, Zone 5.
> 
> I'm growing strawberries this year, for the first time, to give us enough
> for home and to add to our "menu" at the farmers markets, along with our
> cutflowers and veggies.
> 
> If anyone would like to share what they know about strawberries, I'd really
> appreciate it...

I've grown Honeyoye and I think it was Tri-Star (a day-neutral
variety).  Honeyoye is the best strawberry I've ever tasted - the SECOND
year.  Neither variety were any good the first year.  You're supposed to
snip off blossoms and runners the first year to "concentrate growth in
the plant's roots" (I was told).

Well of course I had to see for myself.  There was no noticeable effect
on plant growth (between pinched and unpinched plants) but the berries
were sour and watery.  I was very disappointed, and then the following
Spring very surprised at the taste difference.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From pike@always-online.com Wed Feb 09 10:22:09 2000
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Subject: don't delete-serious post-Re: new member intro/CSA
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Am I allowed to post now??  I'm sufficiently medicated with anti-chat,
anti-personality.

For Cheri:  I'm in a similar situation, right down to the farm
acreage.  But since this is a question more suited to the csa list, I
will respond there.  If you are a subscriber, let me know & I will
post over there.  If not, here's the link to do it & please let me
know when you do, so I can post some answers to your questions:

http://franklin.oit.unc.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=csa&text_mode=0

This info is also for any new subscribers who were not aware of this
list-my reason for posting this publicly.

Liz Who Ran With The Wolves & Became Alpha Dog
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville  NC



From fullcircle@jps.net Wed Feb 09 10:27:51 2000
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Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 07:27:35 -0800
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Eric Gibson and the New Farmers' Market


HI all,

For those of you who asked, I saw Eric at our local farm conference this
weekend.
This is his busy season as he does speaking engagements and book sales at
"Winter Meetings."

He tells me his book The New Farmers' Market should ship in late May.  He
says he'll join the list when he gets back from this leg of travel.

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From fullcircle@jps.net Wed Feb 09 10:39:35 2000
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Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 07:39:30 -0800
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Still looking for books, speakers, and authors


I'm finishing up the Books FAQ and the authors/speakers/experts FAQs

If you haven't done so already, please e-mail me privately with your
favorite market farming books  I'll sort the list by categories.

If you have published a book, got credit on a book, teach seminars or speak
on topics about market farming, e-mail me privately with a paragraph about
yourself and what you do.

Both of these mini-FAQs will be published to the list and then reside on
the website.

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From goodows@excite.com Wed Feb 09 11:17:47 2000
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Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:09:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley <goodows@excite.com>
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We have about 6 apple trees and 3 pear trees that we have been rehabing for
8 years and last year we got a decent apple crop and a bumper pear crop. We
do the orchard as a side venture and basically because the trees were
already here when we moved in. They are all certified organic and get less
buggy each season. They have responded really well to tractoring chickens
under them and this year we got 2 swarms of bees which really helped a lot
with disease and pollination problems. We have never been really great about
a spray programm but usually get sticky traps in the trees and get them
pruned each winter. We do a lot of daily clean up of drops in the summer and
keep the areas kind of on the weedy side to keep insect damage down. We make
sauce, cider and dried apples from the trees. 

I don't know all the types but we do have summer rambo, two kinds of
winesaps (the best tasting) and a maine blush and one tree with 4 types
which each year  seem to be more and more alike.
>  


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





_______________________________________________________
Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite
Visit http://freeworld.excite.com


From sojournr@missouri.org Wed Feb 09 11:38:48 2000
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Orchards and fruit trees
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Lucy Goodman-Owsley wrote:
> 
> We have about 6 apple trees and 3 pear trees that we have
> been rehabing for 8 years . . . We do the orchard as a
> side venture . . . organic and get less buggy each season.

You're talkin' my language!

> They have responded really well to tractoring chickens
> under them and this year we got 2 swarms of bees which
> really helped a lot with disease and pollination problems.

Allowing your livestock to clean up dropped fruits, and especially
chickens, who not only go after the drops but any insects around as
well, is supposed to help reduce insect pests a lot.  Glad to hear this
is working for you as it's something I plan on doing once I get the
orchard/fruit trees established.

> We have never been really great about a spray programm but
> usually get sticky traps in the trees and get them
> pruned each winter. We do a lot of daily clean up of drops
> in the summer

How are you pruning?  To any particular method, or are you just cutting
off deadwood and suckers?

When do you tractor the chickens through - I would imagine they could
pretty well keep the drops cleaned up for you.

> and keep the areas kind of on the weedy side to keep
> insect damage down.

Does this work to keep insect damage down by providing habitat for
predator insects?

> We make
> sauce, cider and dried apples from the trees.

That's my plan, for personal use, and to sell the best looking fruits at
market.
 
> I don't know all the types but we do have summer rambo,
> two kinds of winesaps (the best tasting) and a maine blush

Winesaps are one of my favorite apples.  I haven't seen them in stores
for years, so a Winesap is definitely on the list of first year trees
I'll be putting in.  My dad says my grandmother had Jonathons, so I'll
try one of them as well.  He couldn't remember what else she had, or
what it was we had in our backyard - we probably never knew.  That house
was 100 years old and the trees were at least 50 years old.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From sojournr@missouri.org Wed Feb 09 11:44:27 2000
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Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 10:48:39 -0600
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Lucy Goodman-Owsley wrote:
> 
> this year we got 2 swarms of bees which really helped a lot
> with disease and pollination problems.

I'm building some bumblebee nest boxes this year in hopes of encouraging
bumblebees to move in.  I saw not one honeybee up here last year, but
did see bumblebees.  Also, bumblebees are active every day and in cooler
temps than the honeybees, so that should help with some more difficult
fruits like apricots and peaches.

Plans for a bumblebee nestbox are on the web at:

http://www.anet-chi.com/~manytimes/page40.htm

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From mjb@premier1.net Wed Feb 09 12:05:58 2000
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From: "Michaele Blakely" <mjb@premier1.net>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
References: <LYR99136-37033-2000.02.09-11.17.47--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98946-37037-2000.02.09-11.44.27--mjb#premier1.net@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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----- Original Message -----
From: Sojourner <sojournr@missouri.org>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: Orchards and fruit trees


 I'm building some bumblebee nest boxes this year in hopes of encouraging
> bumblebees to move in

orchard mason bees are a wonderful asset too.  if you don't already know
about them let me know, i'll try to find a resource for you, or maybe
someone on the list already has it.  i've seen houses built for them.  we
have them in our fences and around, but i'm thinking of making some houses
this year.
michaele
growing things



From goodearth@rockbridge.net Wed Feb 09 12:57:38 2000
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Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 13:08:21 -0500
Subject: Incubators as germination chambers?
From: "Andy Lee & Pat Foreman" <goodearth@rockbridge.net>
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I have a GQF Sportsman egg incubator that has temperature and humidity 
control capability to within 1/4%. I would like to use it as a germination
chamber, and see no reason why it won't work, but such seemingly easy things
often have unforeseen complications. Has anyone ever tried this, and what
were your results?

Thanks,

Andy Lee
Central Virginia



From fullcircle@jps.net Wed Feb 09 13:17:06 2000
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Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 10:17:00 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Orchards - alternative pollinators


A favorite book on this is  Humblebee Bumblebee by Brian L. Griffin


Another great alternative pollinator site  Orchard Mason Bees

http://www.knoxcellars.com/


Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From kampy@netins.net Wed Feb 09 13:19:20 2000
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From: Marie Kamphefner <kampy@netins.net>
Subject: Re: Incubators as germination chambers?
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I was wondering about this myself because we have two large incubators and
two large hatchers.  Would the lack of light be a problem germinating
seeds?  I'm seriously thinking about trying it just to see what happens.

Marie in Missouri


From FullCircleFarm@brown.edu Wed Feb 09 13:22:37 2000
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Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 13:24:05 -0500
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: FullCircleFarm <FullCircleFarm@brown.edu>
Subject: Re: Orchards and fruit trees
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What sort of house do mason bees like?
					Michael
Don, Judy & MICHAEL WILMETH
Full Circle Farm, 15 South Road, Heath MA 01346 -- 413-377-5754
<FullCircleFarm@brown.edu>

From sojournr@missouri.org Wed Feb 09 13:57:05 2000
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FullCircleFarm wrote:
> 
> What sort of house do mason bees like?

From:

http://phylogeny.arizona.edu/pubs/insects/ahb/inf29.html

To build your own bee house, drill a series of holes 3/8 inches in
diameter (smaller diameter holes will be used by leafcutter bees) three
to six inches deep in pine or fir 4X4's or glued-up boards. Space the
holes about 3/4 inch apart, the number and design are up to you. Paint
and decorate as you wish. Mount the house firmly to fixed surface where
it will get morning sun (the bees don't like to swing). Mason bees are
active in the spring, so provide houses from February to July in
Arizona.  Holes that are being used will be plugged with mud.

<end article>

To protect the above from woodpeckers, put a chicken wire or hardware
cloth "cage" around the nest box to keep the birds away but still let
the bees in.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From farmsted@cfw.com Wed Feb 09 14:14:55 2000
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Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 14:14:52
Subject: farmers market survey
To: market-farming
From: "Jeff Ishee" <farmsted@cfw.com>


Dear Friends,

  I would like to invite all particpants of public farmers' markets to 
spend a minute answering a survey question appropriate to this list. I am 
researching my next book on farmers' markets, and your response is very 
important for all of us to better understand the dynamics of farmers' 
marketing. For the next few weeks, I'll change the survey question 
frequently, and then remind you of it here.
  Please click on the website listed below, then go to the bottom of the 
page for the "February" survey question. This poll is updated 
instantaneously so you will be able to observe the results as people 
indicate their response.

www.marketfarm.homestead.com/start.html

  We realize that the above URL is a little awkward, but please be aware 
that we are in the process of reserving an appropriate domain name. (Can't 
let the secret out just yet, lest someone else claims it.) Hopefully you 
will be able to find us easier in the future.
  I sincerely appreciate your cooperation in the survey. This will give us 
accurate feedback from the "front lines" of public farmers' markets.

Jeff Ishee
Bittersweet Farmstead
Middlebrook, VA 

From sojournr@missouri.org Wed Feb 09 14:17:35 2000
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Sojourner wrote:
> 
> FullCircleFarm wrote:
> >
> > What sort of house do mason bees like?
> 
> From:
> 
> http://phylogeny.arizona.edu/pubs/insects/ahb/inf29.html
> 
> To build your own bee house, drill a series of holes 3/8 inches in
> diameter (smaller diameter holes will be used by leafcutter bees) three
> to six inches deep in pine or fir 4X4's or glued-up boards. Space the
> holes about 3/4 inch apart, the number and design are up to you. Paint
> and decorate as you wish. Mount the house firmly to fixed surface where
> it will get morning sun (the bees don't like to swing). Mason bees are
> active in the spring, so provide houses from February to July in
> Arizona.  Holes that are being used will be plugged with mud.
> 
> <end article>
> 
> To protect the above from woodpeckers, put a chicken wire or hardware
> cloth "cage" around the nest box to keep the birds away but still let
> the bees in.

Darn it, did it again!  Building homes for mason bees: 

1) Don't drill all the way through the board
2) mason bees only travel about 100 yards from their nest so if you want
mason bees to pollinate your orchard you'll need several houses
3) It is possible to buy mason bees though I don't have a source at
hand.
4) Whatever sort of bees you have, make sure that you have a source of
shallow water nearby for them.  A birdbath would do although some bees
(mason bees among them) require mud to make their nests so a shallow
pond or pool is preferred (if possible).
5) Some bees, bumblebees in particular, store little or no food (unlike
honeybees).  If you are having a bad drought year consider feeding the
bees as well as providing food for them - protecting your bee population
will help them to remain established so they will still be there for you
come spring.  This past summer local bumblebee populations were starving
due to the drought.

Here is a site with a lot of links and info pertaining to orchard
(mason) bees and other solitary bee species as pollinators.

http://www.uidaho.edu/pses/Strickler/SolitaryBees/solitary.htm

This link from that site is particularly good (about raising mason
bees):

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/ent/notes/Ornamentals_and_Turf/flower_contents/orn_t109/not109.html

Also from the Idaho site, on building nestboxes:

Dr. Philip Torchio 
1491 N 1600 E, 
Logan, UT 84341 

Past work with Osmia lignaria has demonstrated that the most effective
hole size is close to 5/16" in diameter and 6" deep.  If holes of less
depth are used, the nesting females will produce fewer female and more
male progeny; if deeper holes are used, the extra space is wasted. The
bees flying in orchards have a surplus of pollen-nectar resources to
collect and, consequently, they fly only short distances from their nest
holes. To obtain even pollination across an orchard, it is necessary
to spread the bees evenly across the orchard. I would suggest that you
place one nest shelter per acre and establish 250 nesting females in
each shelter supplied with at least three nesting holes per nesting
female. 

Although I am now retired, I would be happy to answer any other
questions you may have. 

<end article>

I've seen both 5/16" and 3/8" holes recommended, and varying suggestions
for the hole depth from 2" to 8".  Can't begin to guess who's right on
that score - further research or experimentation is probably the order
of the day if you're interested in mason bees.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From sojournr@missouri.org Wed Feb 09 14:19:51 2000
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Jeff Ishee wrote:
> 
>   Please click on the website listed below, then go to the bottom of the
> page for the "February" survey question. This poll is updated
> instantaneously so you will be able to observe the results as people
> indicate their response.
> 
> www.marketfarm.homestead.com/start.html

To direct click you need to put the http:// on front, like this:

http://www.marketfarm.homestead.com/start.html

There, now click on THAT!  <VBG>

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From gutierrez-lagatta@home.com Wed Feb 09 14:29:51 2000
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Subject: Market niches
To: market-farming
From: "Adriana Gutierrez" <gutierrez-lagatta@home.com>


Have any of you identified any interesting market niches that you're 
willing to share with the group?  I'll share mine if you'll share 
yours:>)...

Arugula for restaurants - even though I live in Florida, a large part of 
the produce, especially specialty produce, comes from the West Coast.  The 
quality that is available is abysmal - limp, dull, product with dirty roots 
and minimal shelf life.  My chefs are happy to pay $8/# for premium baby 
arugula which will hold for up to a week and nothing is thrown away.  It's 
a classic case of the existing producer leaving the door wide open to the 
competition due to poor quality.

The beauty is, it's an existing product with an open, dissatisfied market.  
I have a feeling that one could make some decent money in a medium sized 
city providing Italian restaurants with premium arugula and basil, oregano 
and rosemary.  The way to sell the herbs is to impose a reasonable minimum 
for delivery, say $30.  Then, in order to get the 2 # of good arugula that 
they can't get elsewhere, they go ahead and order a couple of pounds of 
basil, 4 oz. of oregano and 1 # of rosemary.

Adriana Gutierrez
Green Cuisine
Sarasota, Florida

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We usually have lots and lots of bumblebees.  What do you feed them?

Marie in Missouri


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Dennis Avery has been used as a front-man for the pesticide industry for a
long time.  Tom Paine ran an add on Dursban today in the N.Y. Times.  Among
the background information on their website, an item reminded me of Avery's
curiously placed OP-ED the day after the March 1993 PBS "Frontline" show,
"In Our Children's Food."  Click the below link to review.

 This brings back memories because I was taped for 6 straight hours by the
producer of the show and was heavily involved in the reporting on this show
and the NAS report.  Recall the PBS-Moyers show ran about 6 weeks before
the release of the 1993 NAS report in June, 1993.  It was a time of great
concern among the pesticide industry, and they obviously had enlisted Avery
to help spin the press.  I was told by an industry insider that the
chemical industry raised/spent over $3 million in four months in their PR
campaign and response to the PBS special and the NAS report.  That's is
about twice what both the PBS special and the NAS project cost, and was no
doubt more than the government spent in 1993 on focused research on
pesticide impacts on children's health.

http://www.tompaine.com/preview/features/2000/02/04/1.html


Charles Benbrook                          CU FQPA site www.ecologic-ipm.com
Benbrook Consulting Services    Ag BioTech InfoNet www.biotech-info.net
5085 Upper Pack River Road      IPM site www.pmac.net
Sandpoint, Idaho 83864
208-263-5236 (Voice)                   208-263-7342 (Fax)


From mjb@premier1.net Wed Feb 09 15:38:07 2000
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Subject: Re: Orchards and fruit trees
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 12:45:36 -0800
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----- Original Message -----
From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley <goodows@excite.com>
To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: Orchards and fruit trees


Lucy and anyone else out there;
We're starting a similar project on trees that have been here for who knows.
The homestead is 100 yrs. old.  I was told that to bring the trees back to
take no more than a third.  We're starting to do that, but even still, the
trees are way too high.  My question:  what did you do to bring the trees
back to production?  Our trees have actually produced very fine crops,
except for two pear trees (the rest of the pears did fine, don't know why
these didn't), it's just next to impossible to get to them.  I'm thinking I
will have to be pretty severe for a couple of years.  Was that your
situation?
Thanks,
Michaele
Growing Things


From waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Wed Feb 09 16:06:03 2000
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From: Alex McGregor <waldenfarm@sprintmail.com>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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Adriana,

I too sell arugula to restaurants and a local store. What they had been getting is yellow
and wilted. What do you charge for yours? I charge a very good customer who buys herbs
and peppers from me $10/lb. The others that just want arugula- $12/lb.

I have a niche market with lettuce varieties that don't ship well- mostly Batavians. I
grow them all season. They're too tender for shipping. I also grow Bronze Arrow oak leaf
(from Bountiful Gardens) and some red leaf. One restaurant buys only red leaf to add to
the cheap iceburg to make the salads look better. Another restaurant buys Romaine for
their Caesar salads for Sunday brunch.

I get $1.25/lb. for the lettuces- wholesale. I get this because I show them that if they
trim the crap and core out of the commercial lettuce and weigh it, they find that mine is
about the same price for what they get- because the cores in mine are small and I trim it
up so they can use all the leaves.

The fresh herbs are also a niche- because they're fresh and I don't use N fertilizer
(chemical or "organic") to force rapid growth. They therefore have a higher aromatic oil
content. One chef passed bags of my basil and mint around to some of his regulars saying,
"This is why the food tastes so good- his herbs."

Keep on nicheing,
Alex McGregor
Walden Farm
Walden Ridge, TN

Adriana Gutierrez wrote:

> Have any of you identified any interesting market niches that you're
> willing to share with the group?  I'll share mine if you'll share
> yours:>)...


From pike@always-online.com Wed Feb 09 16:09:18 2000
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Subject: Re: Market niches
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Salads!!!  This is my specialty, though I do not sell to restaurants.
I do have a few chefs of the small downtown restaurants (bed &
breakfasts, supperclubs) who buy from me at the farmer's market.  When
I began doing research on this particular fm, I noted that the vendors
sold very few salad ingredients-2 kinds of lettuce & that's it.
Knowing that salad produce is the only produce that can't be frozen or
canned,  I eat so many  of them myself, & this is a market that can be
supplied year round here in my climate, I saw this as my niche.  I
kept anywhere from 10-19 types of lettuce on my tables at all times
(except the heat of summer-still working on that), various greens
(including arugula) & herbs, and a few other things like baby squash,
baby carrots, baby cukes, etc.  I charged $8.00 a bag-mix or match, or
$4.00/lb.  Now, the psychology behind this is that the bag held 2 lbs
approximately.  But because of the thought of having a whole bag of
produce versus just a pound, made more people go for the bag.  This
single strategy doubled my sales.

After the first days of market, several vendors began copying me, and
as I've said, I had to vary this all through the year (keeps the other
vendors on their toes).  No matter-I got the initial customers &
turned them into loyal customers who spread the word.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC



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Alex McGregor wrote:

> The fresh herbs are also a niche- because they're fresh and I don't use N fertilizer
> (chemical or "organic") to force rapid growth. They therefore have a higher aromatic oil
> content. One chef passed bags of my basil and mint around to some of his regulars saying,
> "This is why the food tastes so good- his herbs."

I grew some basil- about 100 plants last year to try to expand into the herb market.  My
problem was with the harvesting.  I would cut the new growth off every couple days or so.  I
wasn't very systematic but would snip off a couple inches worth of stem and leaves.  I think
I might of been a little protective of the plants and didn't snip off enough.  It seemed very
labor intensive to pick basil this way.  About how big can you make the cut on basil with out
it being too much?  Thanks,
Sue


From lh@pressroom.com Wed Feb 09 16:34:49 2000
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 <LYR98943-37079-2000.02.09-14.29.50--waldenfarm#sprintmail.com@franklin.oi
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Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:34:53 -0500
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Leigh Hauter <lh@pressroom.com>
Subject: Re: Market niches-harvesting herbs


Interesting fact about herbs bought wholesale or in the stoer-  Most herbs
have been irradiated to extend shelf-life.  This could be a selling point
for creating a niche market.

From sojournr@missouri.org Wed Feb 09 16:44:34 2000
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Marie Kamphefner wrote:
> 
> We usually have lots and lots of bumblebees.  What do you feed them?

I'm pretty sure you feed them the same as you would feed honeybees.

Here's a couple of links:

http://www.in2it.net/bees/feeding.html
http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/96sept2.htm

From:

http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/bkCD/Startkeeping/Methods_starting.html

A number three can containing a food supply of 50 percent sugar syrup is
suspended from the top of the cage. A few small holes are made in the
bottom of the can through which the bees feed.

<end article>

Those are all for honeybees, but I imagine feeding bumblebees is
similar.

-- 
Holly ;-D
Contrary Peasant
sojournr@missouri.org

From gutierrez-lagatta@home.com Wed Feb 09 16:50:53 2000
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Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:50:45
Subject: Re: Market niches
To: market-farming
From: "Adriana Gutierrez" <gutierrez-lagatta@home.com>



> Salads!!!  This is my specialty, though I do not sell to restaurants.  I
> kept anywhere from 10-19 types of lettuce on my tables at all times.  I charged $8.00 a bag-mix or match, or
> $4.00/lb. 

Liz,
How do you display your salad greens to keep them from wilting in the 
Carolihna heat?  How do you work the mechanics of mix-n-match?  Do you have 
tongs?
I sell my mesclun to restaurants in 5# bags for $30.  To friends and 
neigbors in  8 oz ziplock bags for $4.00 and they are happy to get it.  I 
think you should be able to get more for yours.  Salad mix in our 
supermarkets goes for $5.99.

From pike@always-online.com Wed Feb 09 16:59:32 2000
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References: <LYR99136-37083-2000.02.09-14.49.05--sojournr#missouri.org@franklin.oit.unc.edu> <LYR98963-37111-2000.02.09-16.44.34--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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I don't have bees, but what I do is plant borage throughout the garden
to attract  pollinators.  I plant 6-10 plants per 100ft row of
tomatoes, cukes , squash, etc, spacing them along the row.  The bees
are attracted to the borage first, then wander over to the tomatoes,
etc.  I harvest a few of the flowers to add to my salad mixes with
edible flowers--they really do taste like cucumbers.  I've always done
this so don't have records for the differences in harvest, taste, etc
if I did not do this.  I discovered this technique at a horticultural
workshop on historical gardening in the late 1700's-a technique that
still works today.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC


From gutierrez-lagatta@home.com Wed Feb 09 17:02:44 2000
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Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:2:35
Subject: Re: Market niches
To: market-farming
From: "Adriana Gutierrez" <gutierrez-lagatta@home.com>


On 02/09/00, "Alex McGregor <waldenfarm@sprintmail.com>" wrote:
> Adriana,
> 
> I too sell arugula to restaurants and a local store. What they had been getting is yellow
> and wilted. What do you charge for yours? 
I charge $8/# for my arugula to restaurants, $4 for a 6 oz bag to 
neighbors.

From bhfarm@accel.net Wed Feb 09 18:21:40 2000
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From: bhfarm@accel.net (BHFarm)
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>,
	<organicgrowing@egroups.com>
Subject: response from our friend the Lawyer!!!
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 18:35:36 -0500
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hi all
i emailed our friend Howard-lawyer to the stars & asked what he thought of
what the 20/20 show wasall about-this is the reply!!
yeah!!-spelling is off, but it comes from his email address....it is not
just us that are upset!

zalia
bhfarm@accel.net
----- Original Message -----
From: <Hlyman@aol.com>
To: <bhfarm@accel.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: 20/20 program


> The show was the worst job of fair reporting I have ever seen.  What the
said
> was true but totally out of context.  John is famous for just that kind of
> reporting.  I kind words it was a piece of crap.
>
> Your friend,
>
> Howard
>


From waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Wed Feb 09 18:24:32 2000
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Sue,

I harvest the leaf clusters at the end of the stems and leave the other leaves on. This is fast,
you get multiple leaves with one snip. It also stimulates the plants to grow 2 leaf clusters on
the end of the branches. I harvest lightly when the plants are medium size and take off all
terminal clusters when they're large or start developing flower buds. I cut off all leaves right
before frost for selling and drying.

Alex McGregor
Walden Farm
Walden Ridge, TN

Sue wrote:

> I grew some basil- about 100 plants last year to try to expand into the herb market.  My
> problem was with the harvesting.  I would cut the new growth off every couple days or so.  I
> wasn't very systematic but would snip off a couple inches worth of stem and leaves.  I think
> I might of been a little protective of the plants and didn't snip off enough.  It seemed very
> labor intensive to pick basil this way.  About how big can you make the cut on basil with out
> it being too much?


From doodles@netins.net Wed Feb 09 18:35:41 2000
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Marcie told me that Charles Benbrook's piece is already posted at Sanet...?
What is the address? I'd like to look now if anyone is reading new mail,
write back ASAP to doodles@netins.net - thanks!
Ericka
--The Mighty Oak was once a little nut that held its ground.


From gutierrez-lagatta@home.com Wed Feb 09 18:53:00 2000
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Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 18:52:54
Subject: Re: Market niches-harvesting herbs
To: market-farming
From: "Adriana Gutierrez" <gutierrez-lagatta@home.com>


basil- about 100 plants last year to try to expand into the herb market.  
My
> problem was with the harvesting.  I would cut the new growth off every couple days or so.
I harvest my plants once a week and it seems to provide adequate recovery 
time and gives you enough to harvest without having to hunt for sprigs that 
are ready.

> labor intensive to pick basil this way.  About how big can you make the cut on basil with out it being too much?
I usually cut the sprigs at about 6 inches long.The most critical thing is 
to get that first cut in early to encourage branching.

From "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com> Wed Feb 09 18:58:16 2000
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lflondon@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: market-farming
Subject: Re: Where is Sanet?
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 17:58:13 -0500
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On Wed, 09 Feb 2000 17:35:50 -0800, "Ericka & Rich Dana"
<doodles@netins.net> wrote:

>Marcie told me that Charles Benbrook's piece is already posted at Sanet...?

It is and a _lot_ more in that thread. The place to go to keep up with
major happenings in the world of sustainable agriculture.

>What is the address? I'd like to look now if anyone is reading new mail,
>write back ASAP to doodles@netins.net - thanks!

To the list:
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Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden InterGarden       
metalab.unc.edu/permaculture PermaSphere       
metalab.unc.edu/intergarden/orgfarm AGINFO
metalab.unc.edu/market-farming Market Farming
lflondon@mindspring.com  london@metalab.unc.edu



From swtgrssfrm@nls.net Wed Feb 09 19:23:08 2000
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> Harvesting basil.....
> I usually cut the sprigs at about 6 inches long.The most critical thing is
> to get that first cut in early to encourage branching.
>

When do you start harvesting?  thank you
sue

>
> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as: swtgrssfrm@nls.net
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to $subst('Email.Unsub')


From pike@always-online.com Wed Feb 09 19:33:11 2000
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Subject: Re: Market niches
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> How do you display your salad greens to keep them from wilting in
the
> Carolina heat?

I only display as little as I can get away with, keeping the rest in
the cooler.  For what I do display, I use food service plastic basins
with hollow interiors that are filled with a gel.  The containers are
frozen overnight ( I have access to a walk-in freezer at our
restaurant, a little perk), and I take them out to market the next
day.  This gel stays cold, & defrosts very slowly-several
hours-keeping the greens & salads fresh without immersion in
water-something I try to avoid.  I spray them constantly while on
display with ice water.

> How do you work the mechanics of mix-n-match?  Do you have tongs?

I have prebagged mixes (several varieties-spicy, regular, w/herbs,
w/herbs & flowers) in ziplock bags that are 1 lb-these sell for $5.
But for the $8.00 bags, this lettuce is either by the head, or cut,
and displayed in these basins.  And, yes, I do use tongs.  The
customer chooses what varieties-I bag them, and know how much to put
in to keep it to the 2 lb limit. Veggies are chosen first, and I
subtly direct the customer on how much to select.

> I sell my mesclun to restaurants in 5# bags for $30.  To friends and
> neigbors in  8 oz ziplock bags for $4.00 and they are happy to get
it.  I
> think you should be able to get more for yours.  Salad mix in our
> supermarkets goes for $5.99.

Unfortunately, in our area, these salad mixes are new & strange-people
are scared of them!!   Anything not iceberg is suspicious--looks too
much like weeds.  Just this year, the grocery stores have started
carrying them, but they are mostly Romaine or Iceberg.  I've had to
keep my prices low to introduce these new edibles, and encourage
experimenting.  All the other vendors charge $.75-$1 per head for
large, wattery heads of lettuce, so to have someone pay $4,5,8 is
quite a step of faith for these customers.  My lettuce looks so
absolutely fresh--it really is irresistable.  I know-I've eaten a
salad at 6:30 in the morning because "I" couldn't resist!

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville  NC



From waldenfarm@sprintmail.com Wed Feb 09 19:39:46 2000
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Marie,

Light is a problem, but it may well work to get seeds to germinate in cold weather. Just
be sure to take them out and put them in a cold frame or somewhere they get enough light
as soon as you see the first sprouts.

I start lettuce and other salads greens in the hot summer under a huge hemlock tree. I
set up benches and put flats on and under them. Then cover the whole thing with used row
cover to keep birds and squirrels out. I carry them out to a sunny spot as soon as I see
the first sprouts breaking the surface.

Works great, so going the other way with temp. probably will work.

Alex McGregor
Walden Farm
Walden Ridge, TN

Marie Kamphefner wrote:

> I was wondering about this myself because we have two large incubators and
> two large hatchers.  Would the lack of light be a problem germinating
> seeds?  I'm seriously thinking about trying it just to see what happens.


From pike@always-online.com Wed Feb 09 19:42:33 2000
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Subject: Re: Market niches-harvesting herbs
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Speaking of basil, have any of you ever grown Spicy Globe?  It makes a
nice round "head" about 10" wide, 10" tall.  I've grown it every year,
but last year,  as a fluke on one very hot harvest day,  I cut the
whole plant.   I took it to market, placing it in a vase, intending to
just have it perfume the air around my booth.  It was gorgeous, and a
chef paid $12 for the whole plant-$4 more than what I could have
gotten by selling the leaves.   He kept coming back every week to buy
those "whole" basil plants.  The leaves are much smaller than Green
Ruffles, which I prefer to sell & cook with, but he loved this size
for using on tables instead of flowers.  He asked for more this year,
but unfortunately, I've had to get my flower growing friend to grow
them as we will be having our trees "harvested".   My flower growing
friend also grows basil for her flower bouquets.  Customers come by
our booths (they're side by side) and can't help but want to cook!

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC




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Marie, I've had mixed results in seeding without light.  The seedlings
seem to need more light than the more mature plants.  I've had such
poor success even starting seeds on windowsills, I don't do any now
without good, strong direct light tubes.  If they do not get enough
light, the stems will lengthen before the first leaves form which
leads to a very weak plant.  I would really try to get that light!

Now, if you want to use those incubators for something, you might
consider presprouting.  I do this alot with crops I transplant & use
less plants such as tomatoes, peppers, etc-not good for lettuce,
brassicas.  I presprout the seeds then as soon as the little root
appears, plant them up right away.  Presprouting guarantees
germination (you only plant out the ones with roots) and forces the
seeds to sprout sooner, days sooner.

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC



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From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley <goodows@excite.com>
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On Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:20:52 -0500, market farming wrote:

>  
>  From: five springs farm <fsfarm@mufn.org>
>  
>  >Yes, your phosphate can be 0-46-0
>  
>  Okay, I won't ask again (received a disturbing email about it this
>  morning, got me all worked up again, ugh.)
>  
>  > We mix our own fertilizer from the alfalfa, greensand, kelp, and
>  rock
>  > phosphate (sometimes a little wood ash) from proportions we
>  calculated from
>  > John Jeavons "How to Grow More Vegetables..."  We are very satisfied
>  with
>  > the results.
>  
>  I do this too, but must vary the recipe due to the inability, without
>  a lot of effort, to get  greensand or kelp. 
Liz have you ever contacted the fertrell company to see if there is a local
dealer in your area. The URL is http://www.fertrell.com. They have both
greensand and kelp at resonable prices, Though not all their inputs are
considered certifiably organic those two are and the company's heart seems
in the right place. I know from experience that their cottonseed meal is NOT
organic.
>  


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





_______________________________________________________
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From berryman70@yahoo.com Wed Feb 09 20:59:28 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 20:59:26
Subject: Re: Strawberries
To: market-farming
From: "Don Palmer" <berryman70@yahoo.com>


On 02/09/00, ""Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>" wrote:
> Hi, folks.  Rose in upstate NY, Zone 5.
> If anyone would like to share what they know about strawberries, I'd really
> appreciate it...
> 1.    growing
 Hello
We have 1 & 1/2 acres of producing strawberries, We use the matted row 
system, with new plants set at 18" apart and let them fill in to make a 
matted row 18" to 20" wide, with 42" between the rows.Around 7000 plants 
per acre.
 We pick all the blossoms the planting year, that encourages a lot of 
runner plants and a nice full bed.
 > 2.    maintenance and disease and pest management
 Newly planted strawberries usually require irrigation, as the roots are 
only about 4" long and the plants will not survive lack of moisture. Weeds 
can be a major problem, we use a combination of hand weeding, mechanical 
cultivation, and herbicides. We cover the field with clean weed free straw 
after the plants go dorment, around 250hrs. of below 40deg. temps.in the 
fall. uncover in early spring. We also use irrigation for spring frost 
control, very important in our area (zone 5 western NY)
> 3.    harvesting
The season last around 3 to 4 weeks for us (early glow to late glow) It 
takes around 10 good pickers to keep an acre picked
> 4.    selling and pricing
We sell 60% retail at our roadside stand, 20% wholesale to a local super 
market and to a few other farmstands and 20% u-pick, our price starts at 
$3.00 per qt. and never drops below $2.50 retail,$1.25 per qt u-pick, 
wholesale price varies. We also make deals on flats of eight.
> 5.    what's productivity like  (I know it varies by a gazillion factors,
> but what's ballpark?  1 pint per 5 plants, 10 plants, 2 plants...
The NY state average (for the matted row system) is 5000 to 7000 qts. per 
acre There are other more intense growing methods that will produce a lot 
more.
> 
> Has anyone grown Earliglow or Northeaster?
> Early glow is my favorite variety,it's our earliest and has excellent flavor, but it's a medium sized berry and the size drops after the first couple pickings. Honeoye is our main crop, Allstar, Jewel, Delmarvel, and Late glow do well in our area.
I hope this has been of help and wasn't two long of a post, but it is just 
the basics, strawberries are very labor intensive.

Don Palmer
Palmer's Fruits & Vegetables
Sinclairville,NY
Webpage: http://www.alltel.net/~dhkp

 

From goodows@excite.com Wed Feb 09 22:28:08 2000
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Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:08:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley <goodows@excite.com>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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We have about 6 apple trees and 3 pear trees that we have been rehabing for
8 years and last year we got a decent apple crop and a bumper pear crop. We
do the orchard as a side venture and basically because the trees were
already here when we moved in. They are all certified organic and get less
buggy each season. They have responded really well to tractoring chickens
under them and this year we got 2 swarms of bees which really helped a lot
with disease and pollination problems. We have never been really great about
a spray programm but usually get sticky traps in the trees and get them
pruned each winter. We do a lot of daily clean up of drops in the summer and
keep the areas kind of on the weedy side to keep insect damage down. We make
sauce, cider and dried apples from the trees. 

I don't know all the types but we do have summer rambo, two kinds of
winesaps (the best tasting) and a maine blush and one tree with 4 types
which each year  seem to be more and more alike.
>  


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





_______________________________________________________
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From suzyr@netos.com Wed Feb 09 23:04:35 2000
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References: 
 <LYR100929-37054-2000.02.09-13.19.17--suzyr#netos.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu
 >
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 19:22:58 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: suzyr@netos.com (Suzy Roth)
Subject: Re: Incubators as germination chambers?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"


>I was wondering about this myself because we have two large incubators and
>two large hatchers.  Would the lack of light be a problem germinating
>seeds?


Some plants like basil need light to germinate, or at least to 
germinate quickly. I once buried my basil seeds in plugs and it took 
10-14 days for them to germinate. Under lights on top of the soil it 
only takes 3 days. I notice onion germinates fast under light with a 
very light dusting of soil to keep them moist. But then there's 
parsley! Nothing will get that to germinate fast. I suggest you 
experiment with your seeds especially if they seem to be taking a 
longer time than usual in the incubator.


From goodows@excite.com Thu Feb 10 05:54:12 2000
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Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:39:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley <goodows@excite.com>
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On Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:20:52 -0500, market farming wrote:

>  
>  From: five springs farm <fsfarm@mufn.org>
>  
>  >Yes, your phosphate can be 0-46-0
>  
>  Okay, I won't ask again (received a disturbing email about it this
>  morning, got me all worked up again, ugh.)
>  
>  > We mix our own fertilizer from the alfalfa, greensand, kelp, and
>  rock
>  > phosphate (sometimes a little wood ash) from proportions we
>  calculated from
>  > John Jeavons "How to Grow More Vegetables..."  We are very satisfied
>  with
>  > the results.
>  
>  I do this too, but must vary the recipe due to the inability, without
>  a lot of effort, to get  greensand or kelp. 
Liz have you ever contacted the fertrell company to see if there is a local
dealer in your area. The URL is http://www.fertrell.com. They have both
greensand and kelp at resonable prices, Though not all their inputs are
considered certifiably organic those two are and the company's heart seems
in the right place. I know from experience that their cottonseed meal is NOT
organic.
>  


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





_______________________________________________________
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Visit http://freeworld.excite.com


From goodows@excite.com Thu Feb 10 06:13:39 2000
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Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:09:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley <goodows@excite.com>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
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We have about 6 apple trees and 3 pear trees that we have been rehabing for
8 years and last year we got a decent apple crop and a bumper pear crop. We
do the orchard as a side venture and basically because the trees were
already here when we moved in. They are all certified organic and get less
buggy each season. They have responded really well to tractoring chickens
under them and this year we got 2 swarms of bees which really helped a lot
with disease and pollination problems. We have never been really great about
a spray programm but usually get sticky traps in the trees and get them
pruned each winter. We do a lot of daily clean up of drops in the summer and
keep the areas kind of on the weedy side to keep insect damage down. We make
sauce, cider and dried apples from the trees. 

I don't know all the types but we do have summer rambo, two kinds of
winesaps (the best tasting) and a maine blush and one tree with 4 types
which each year  seem to be more and more alike.
>  


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





_______________________________________________________
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From egglestonnj@coslink.net Thu Feb 10 07:50:38 2000
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Reply-To: "Nancy Eggleston" <egglestonnj@coslink.net>
From: "Nancy Eggleston" <egglestonnj@coslink.net>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Market niches
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 07:52:55 -0500
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>I sell my mesclun to restaurants in 5# bags for $30.  To friends and
neigbors in  8 oz ziplock bags for $4.00 and they are happy to get it.


May I ask how you first approach restaurants.  Do you just stop in with
samples?  Do you mail a brochure or flyer?  Do you call first?  I am new to
market gardening and admire those with established markets and wonder how I
get started on this.  Thanks for your help.

Nancy




From awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us Thu Feb 10 08:46:18 2000
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From: "Wiediger, Alison" <awiediger@Hart.k12.ky.us>
To: 'market farming' <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: RE: Market niches-harvesting herbs
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 07:47:13 -0600
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> ----------
> From: 	Elizabeth Pike[SMTP:pike@always-online.com]
> 
> Speaking of basil, have any of you ever grown Spicy Globe?  It makes a
> nice round "head" about 10" wide, 10" tall.  I've grown it every year,
> but last year,  as a fluke on one very hot harvest day,  I cut the
> whole plant.   I took it to market, placing it in a vase, intending to
> just have it perfume the air around my booth.  
> 
We grow a particular cultivar called "minette" in 4" pots for sales to
customers.  Without any pinching, it makes a beautiful "ball" and sells like
crazy.  We sell our 4" pots of herbs for $1.50 (I know, cheap, but you'd
have to know our market), and always sell out of this one because of its
beauty.

> them as we will be having our trees "harvested".   My flower growing
> friend also grows basil for her flower bouquets.  Customers come by
> our booths (they're side by side) and can't help but want to cook!
> 
	We grow 'Sweet Dani' and 'Thai Queen' as fillers for our cut flower
bouquets.  They add both color and fragrance!

Paul and Alison Wiediger
Au Naturel Farm
Smiths Grove, KY





> ---
> You are currently subscribed to market-farming as:
> awiediger@hart.k12.ky.us
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> $subst('Email.Unsub')
> 

From pike@always-online.com Thu Feb 10 09:13:16 2000
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References: <LYR98963-37281-2000.02.10-08.46.17--pike#always-online.com@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Profiles of FM consumers, was Re: Market niches-harvesting herbs
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:14:51 -0500
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Allison : >(I know, cheap, but you'd have to know our market)<

A regular customer of mine is an elderly woman who authored many
articles back in the 70's for Organic Gardening & Mother Earth news.
She's in her 90's, and can't eat much of my produce.  But she loves to
visit & chat during my slow periods.  I actually began taking a chair
for her to sit in when she stopped by.  She too had a roadside stand,
and we both agree that profiles of customers is an important tool in
increasing our sales & exposure.  I find it has been especially
helpful in determining the mindset of fm consumers, so I can formulate
strategies to break the resistance to my "new" presense in our market
(only organic grower).  Knowing my market is the key to my staying
power.


How many of you examine/keep records of your customers??    Do you
make notes of age/generation, amount spent, what was purchased, any
other details??

Liz
Morningstar Gardens
Pollocksville NC




From fullcircle@jps.net Thu Feb 10 09:43:41 2000
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Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 06:43:33 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Market niches-harvesting herbs-basil


Hi all,

To encourage barnching, we pinch the plants back when they are 3-4 inches
tall, and still in the greenhouse.  Plants are set out one foot apart on
intensive spacing on 3 foot wide beds.  We let them settle in and grow for
about 3 weeks before we start cutting.

Our bunches are tall, about 8 inches and that removes about 30-40% of the
plant.  Bunches weigh about 12 oz.  I cut first thing in the morning.  I
keep rubberbands around the last three fingers of my left hand, cut the
bunch, band it, and drop it into a tall kitchen trash bag.  We take any
field heat out by submerging the bunches in cold well water.  We shake the
water  off, put the bunches back in the bag and tie it shut.

At market, we put out half a dozen bunches of each variety.  We stand them
upright in tall baskets.  In the bottom of the basket, we put a cut off one
gallon water jug and keep it filled.  The stems stand in water.  We keep a
spray bottle with us.  If the basil starts to wilt, we spray it, shake it
out, return it to a bag. and bring out fresh.  It takes about 1/2 hr to
revive.


Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From fullcircle@jps.net Thu Feb 10 10:15:27 2000
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Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 07:15:23 -0800
To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: fertilizer banding


With Doug's permission - do any of you band fertilizer/soil amendments.
What do you use to do it?


>Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 21:24:31 -0800 (PST)
>From: bg006@scn.org (Douglas Hendrickson)
>To: fullcircle@jps.net
>Subject: fertilizer banding
>Reply-To: bg006@scn.org
>
>Marcie:
>
>Are you aware of any company that manufactures a device that aggitates
>and bands fertilizers in rows that is hand held. Looking for something
>similar to the planet Jr in style but with a larger hopper. I've found
>that the eathway attachment doesn't cut it because there is no aggitating
>mechanism.
>
>Maybe you have had some success retrofitting an older tool?

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From debumper@juno.com Thu Feb 10 10:29:57 2000
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To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:40:18 -0600
Subject: Re: Orchards and fruit trees
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From: Steve D Danielson <debumper@juno.com>


Is there anyone out there with experience in the Tulsa, OK. area that has
tried fruit trees using an espalier system?
If so what varieties seem most adaptable?
comments from other areas welcome if you know something that is true
regardless of zone...
thanks in advance...great list...appreciate the info

From fullcircle@jps.net Thu Feb 10 10:36:51 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Market niches-harvesting herbs-basil


>Hi all,
>
>To encourage barnching, we pinch the plants back when they are 3-4 inches

Ummm, that would be branching, I don't do anything with basil in the barn.

Well, that's not entirely true.  After we strip the leaves for drying from
the woody plants ( we cut them at ground level,) we dried the woody part,
bundled it and sold it for smoking wood on BBQs.  I'll bet it would go over
really well with some of the new grill-type restaurants :-)

PS I didn't originate this idea, but can't remember where I stole it.

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



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From: "David I." <mhcsa@bcn.net>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Market niches-harvesting herbs/basil
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 19:18:17 -0500
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Sue wrote: About how big can you make the cut on basil with out
it being too much?=20

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
We grow all our basil in the greenhouse @ 10"x10"and harvest by pinching =
back to the last node before the main stem, this doubles the number of =
stems to harvest from each time and keeps the quality high. basil =
harvested this way takes longer but the end product is 100% useable by =
the customer and should be sold that way. We do it this way even though =
we have a C.S.A. and do not command a premium. The plants produce for us =
from our first pick up [June 1st] until mid October. If the plants get =
out of hand, or diseased, we hack them all the way back to two nodes on =
the main stem and hand out the prunings for mass Pesto making.
Yours  =20
David Inglis
Mahaiwe Harvest C.S.A.
Housatonic MA


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<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Sue wrote: About how big can you make the cut on basil with =
out<BR>it being=20
too much?&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<HR>
We grow all our basil in the greenhouse @ 10&quot;x10&quot;and harvest =
by=20
pinching back to the last node before the main stem, this doubles the =
number of=20
stems to harvest from each time and keeps the quality high. basil =
harvested this=20
way takes longer but the end product is 100% useable by the customer and =
should=20
be sold that way. We do it this way even though we have a C.S.A. and do =
not=20
command a premium. The plants produce for us from our first pick up =
[June 1st]=20
until mid October. If the plants get out of hand, or diseased, we hack =
them all=20
the way back to two nodes on the main stem and hand out the prunings for =
mass=20
Pesto making.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#008080 face=3D"Book Antiqua" =
size=3D4>Yours&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>David=20
Inglis<BR>Mahaiwe Harvest C.S.A.<BR>Housatonic MA</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From pike@always-online.com Thu Feb 10 10:55:08 2000
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From: "Elizabeth Pike" <pike@always-online.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: 
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Forgive this of-topic intrusion, friends.  My father, who was recently
hospitalized is not expected to live today.  I must attend to details
& paperwork.  I needed to let you know this since I receive many
private emails from subscribers of this list requesting help, and I
will be a bit late with your requests.  I'm so sorry.  If you're
waiting for a response I will get back to you as soon as possible.

Liz

"To everything there is a season...a time to be born, a time to
die...a time to plant...a time to harvest...a time of peace."  He was
a farmer, and it feels like spring today.



From snsaquasys@townsqr.com Thu Feb 10 11:10:16 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: S & S Aqua Farm <snsaquasys@townsqr.com>
Subject: Basil tips, was Re: Market niches-harvesting herbs


At 04:25 PM 02/09/2000 -0500, Sue wrote:

>I grew some basil- about 100 plants last year to try to expand into the
herb market.  My problem was with the harvesting.  I would cut the new
growth off every couple days or so.  I wasn't very systematic but would snip
off a couple inches worth of stem and leaves.  I think I might of been a
little protective of the plants and didn't snip off enough.  It seemed very
labor intensive to pick basil this way.  About how big can you make the cut
on basil with out it being too much?  


Sue - you've seen some really good tips on basil in the cut-and-come-again
techniques.  This will give you season-long harvest from a single planting,
allow you to keep your basil healthy and producing.

It is very labor intensive to cut basil from an existing plant, constantly
evaluating whether this branch or that is "ready" or should grow out longer.
And by the time you get into the third or fourth cut with all the new
productive branches, it gets even worse.  If you're using this as a
secondary crop in addition to your primary salad greens or whatever, this is
probably fine.

For large quantities, we found that growing for a single harvest and
replanting (using 1-2 week old transplants) was the most economical.   We're
able to produce 15-20# in a 4'x8' grow bed on a rotational basis every
four-five weeks (transplant to harvest, depending on temperatures).  If you
have the market for that volume on a continuous basis, I'd suggest you go
with a single harvest, then replant.  

If you'll watch your basil transplants, the first week you'll see little
growth; the second week is more remarkable.  By the third week they've
jumped to double size, and the fourth week the plants should be in the
12-18" range -- all tender growth and ready for harvesting.  Wholesalers and
restaurants generally use the entire plant (soft stem and all) in their
pestos, keeping the small top shoots for decorative touches.   Unless you're
going strictly for a retail (leaves only) market, it just makes more sense.
Certainly is less labor intensive to cut an entire plant when it's perfectly
usable.

Just my thoughts.

Paula Speraneo
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775  417-256-5124
Web page  http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/


From snsaquasys@townsqr.com Thu Feb 10 11:12:50 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: S & S Aqua Farm <snsaquasys@townsqr.com>
Subject: Re: Market niches-harvesting herbs-basil
Cc: Diana Danford <Herbin@townsqr.com>


At 07:36 AM 02/10/2000 -0800, Marcie wrote:

>Well, that's not entirely true.  After we strip the leaves for drying from
>the woody plants ( we cut them at ground level,) we dried the woody part,
>bundled it and sold it for smoking wood on BBQs.  I'll bet it would go over
>really well with some of the new grill-type restaurants :-)
>
>PS I didn't originate this idea, but can't remember where I stole it.

What a neat idea!!  I'm copying this one to my sister (she of the herb plant
business) for passing along to her customers.  Thanks

Paula Speraneo
S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775  417-256-5124
Web page  http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/


From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Thu Feb 10 13:06:56 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Good soil test kits?
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 13:05:33 -0800
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My husband is looking to obtain a good soil test kit which would enable him
to test for potassium, phosphorus, nitrogen, calcium, magnesium, and, of
course, pH.

Anyone use a good test kit covering all these points?

Rose


From flowers@rt66.com Thu Feb 10 13:10:52 2000
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To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Fwd: RE: 20/20 Transcript on Organic Foods



>
>This paper should be very interesting once it is released.
a friend from fao ...food and agriculture organization of the un
headquartered in rome.... sent this info and im forwarding to the list

martin
>
>

>>re:20/20
>>I have received this from 4 different sources ... unfortunately, this is the
>>battle that agro-industry is launching on the organic ag. community: a
>>competition to secure market space between biotech and organic food. Most of
>>the scientists against organic are former or current agro-industry employees
>>(or receiving funds for their projects). Accusations are not backed with
>>hard data to prove that organic food is dangerous, namely because it is
>>difficult to track-back the origin of food borne illness.
>>
>>FAO is now in the process of writing a paper on Quality and Safety of
>>Organic Agriculture, to be presented to the 22nd FAO Regional Conference for
>>Europe in July 2000. I hope that it will be a critical and honest review
>>that will settle on-going polemics. 
>>
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow

5059898337 office/home
5057578337 farm april/november
5059203421 cell



From flowers@rt66.com Thu Feb 10 13:14:54 2000
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To: market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: euro approach to gmos


a glimse of one approach some europesn countries are taking to gmos


martin
>
>CENTRO INTERNAZIONALE CROCEVIA
>Via ferraironi, 88/G
>ROME ITALY
>
>Dear friends,
>
>Please find attached the full text of the new legislation just approuved by
>the Regional Gouvernement of Lazio Region - Italy for a "GMO FRRE REGION".
>  on the total exclusion of use of GMO on delibarate release or cultivation
>in the territory of Lazio region (5 milion people, 230.000 farms!)
>
>The law of 10 articles "Norme in materia di coltivazione, allevamento,
>sperimentazione e commercializzazione di organismi geneticamente modificati
>(OGM) e prodotti da loro derivati" (Obbligations on coltivation, animal
>production, experimentation and commercialisation of GMO and derivated
>products) says:
>
>1.No cultivation or experimentation in any public or collective land, any
>protected land at any title, any organic farming territory and any place at
>border for 2 Km. Any farmer that decide to be "GMO free" can ask to the
>regional gouvernment to impose NO use of GMO for 2 Km at is borders
>
>2. At present NO cultivation of transgenic crops is allowed in the territory
>of the Region
>
>3. All farms or other agroindustry using GMO, at any title,  are escluded
>from any financial support from the Regional Budget and the AGENDA 2000
>programs
>
>4. In all the collective restourants, from school to workplace, under the
>controll of Region or controlled istitutions NO GMO food is obligatory.
>
>5. All the private commercial managing collective pubblic restourants have
>the obbligation of control to garantee of GMO free food
>
>6. All the shops in the Region have to expose only goods with clear
>etiquetage. Such GMO good have to be exposed to the pubblic in a very clear
>and segregated parts of the shop. GMO free shop will have support by the
>regional gouvernement
>
>7. Agricolture research: all genetic engeneering research are escluted from
>the financial support of the Regional budget. Protecting biodiversity and
>diversification of the farming systems will have absolute priority in
>financial support
>
>8. Deliberate releases autorized by national state, if biocontamination of
>regional relevant crops is at risk, will be stopped in all regional
>territory
>
>9. Informed consensus: the region will informe of any test the local
>municipality and all the farmers of the municipality. The regional
>gouvernement will support all the municipality "GMO free"
>
>10. The regional gouvernement will organize information campains on the
>genetic engeneering risks
>
>11. A regional Control and monitoring commission is created with the mandate
>to investigate, controll and report on the GMO field test, food chaine and
>food shops and markets
>
>12. Juridical fremework: special attention is developed to the juridical
>base.
>This part, wery complicated for the presence of EU and national legislation,
>is worked on the base of "concrete application" of principols accepted
>formaly by EU and national state. Of course is aspected a strong reaction by
>national state and EU. A suivre! As all you know formaly no regional
>gouvernement can block a decision origineted by National state or EU but we
>appel to the national costitution and many others juridical sources giving
>to the regional gouvernement "power to protect" is own economy and citizens.
>
>And finaly, in the rapport approved with the law, we find  "special thaks to
>CROCEVIA for is support on the elaboration of this text"  (happy to be
>there!)
>
>
>We sugest to all of you to try to do the same exrcise at your level and
>provoque  a "State conflit" on the juridical base of the autorization of GMO
>crops cultivation also in privete field.

>
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow

5059898337 office/home
5057578337 farm april/november
5059203421 cell



From goodows@excite.com Thu Feb 10 13:24:00 2000
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Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:24:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley <goodows@excite.com>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Orchards and fruit trees
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>  
>  
>  Lucy and anyone else out there;
>  We're starting a similar project on trees that have been here for who
knows.
>  The homestead is 100 yrs. old.  I was told that to bring the trees back
to
>  take no more than a third.  We're starting to do that, but even still,
the
>  trees are way too high.  My question:  what did you do to bring the trees
>  back to production?  Our trees have actually produced very fine crops,
>  except for two pear trees (the rest of the pears did fine, don't know why
>  these didn't), it's just next to impossible to get to them.  I'm thinking
I
>  will have to be pretty severe for a couple of years.  Was that your
>  situation?
>  Thanks,
>  Michaele


When we got here themost of the trees were under 20 years old and not very
big though we have one that has its bottom branches starting at about 10'.
The pear trees are also quite high. One is about 40' at the top and the
other two are about 30'. The apple trees were in bad need of pruning to be
opened up and they had a lot of water sprouts too. the pears we have not
dona a lot of radical pruning too mostly just dead branches and sucker
growth.

The apples we have taken lots of limbs off over the past 5 years. we won't
take any more than 25% of the tree in any one year even though a couple have
had about 65% of the wood removed. 1 tree was about 5 yrs old when we moved
and has been the easist to deal with. Two trees we almost lost because some
genius planted a ceder tree right between two apples so that all were
touching-both of those trees are now recovering successfully from cedar
apple rust now that the ceder has been removed for 4 years.

I don't believe the trees were ever harvested and the apples were allowed to
fall and rot where they lay so we had lots of bug and disease problems in
the beginning and it was rare to get a decent apple with no blemishes. This
year about 45% of the crop was saleable which is good for organic
production, I have heard. Now we have few disease problems and the bug
problems are way down. We have some sawfly and curculio damage as well as
coddling moths but no longer on 95% of the crop.

The pears we do next to nothing to and get great harvests most years unless
they blossoms get frost killed. With pears harvest the fruit unripe and let
ripen in the cellar, this way they don't drop right before ripeness and get
eaten by bugs.

Note: my e-mail service I see has been delivering the same mail repeatedly
to this list. the service is having problems and one day I could not mail
out so i guess they are making up for it by repeatedly sending out the same
two documents over and over. see my name beside a topic you know you have
read before just delete it, it's a repeat. I believe the headings are
orchards.... and homemade fertilizers. sorry for any inconvience


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





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From goodows@excite.com Thu Feb 10 14:05:19 2000
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Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:45:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley <goodows@excite.com>
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To: market farming <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Homemade fertilizer
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On Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:20:52 -0500, market farming wrote:

>  
>  From: five springs farm <fsfarm@mufn.org>
>  
>  >Yes, your phosphate can be 0-46-0
>  
>  Okay, I won't ask again (received a disturbing email about it this
>  morning, got me all worked up again, ugh.)
>  
>  > We mix our own fertilizer from the alfalfa, greensand, kelp, and
>  rock
>  > phosphate (sometimes a little wood ash) from proportions we
>  calculated from
>  > John Jeavons "How to Grow More Vegetables..."  We are very satisfied
>  with
>  > the results.
>  
>  I do this too, but must vary the recipe due to the inability, without
>  a lot of effort, to get  greensand or kelp. 
Liz have you ever contacted the fertrell company to see if there is a local
dealer in your area. The URL is http://www.fertrell.com. They have both
greensand and kelp at resonable prices, Though not all their inputs are
considered certifiably organic those two are and the company's heart seems
in the right place. I know from experience that their cottonseed meal is NOT
organic.
>  


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





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From fullcircle@jps.net Thu Feb 10 15:54:06 2000
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Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 12:54:05 -0800
To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
Subject: Re: Orchards and fruit trees


Hi all,

Some years ago I picked up what I thought was an excellent book.  I've yet
to try the techniques, but it looks good.

It's called Intensive Orcharding:  managing your high production apple planting
Published by Good Fruit Grower, Yakima WA  the technical editor is A.Brooke
Peterson

chapters headings are
Basic Concepts in Pruning and Training
Physiological Aspects of Pruning and Training
Light Interception and Utilization in Orchards
Spur Quality, Light Management, and Renovation Pruning
Deciding on a High Density Orchard System
Caomparison of Slender Spindle and Vertical Axis
Support Systems for High Density Orchards
Effect of Tree Density on Profitability
Adapting a High Density System to Your Needs

There's a lot on trellis systems, good drawings

You can get this book from
Good Fruit Grower
1005 Tieton Dr
Yakima, WA 98902
(509) 575-2315

$10.00 plus $3.00 s&h

if any body has read it and used the techniques, let us know.

Marcie A. Rosenzweig
Full Circle Organic Farm
Auburn, CA



From pyrite@clarityconnect.com Thu Feb 10 16:33:53 2000
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From: "Rose & Fred Lieberman" <pyrite@clarityconnect.com>
To: "ASCFG list" <ASCFG-List@UDel.Edu>,
	"HW" <Homestead-Work@onelist.com>,
	"market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: New Drought Damage Tool
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:32:22 -0800
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I just received the March issue of Horticulture.  (Not exactly the mag I
thought it was, but I digress...)

There's a new "...state-of-the-art forecast tool which creates a weekly
snapshot of where drought is emerging, lingering, subsiding or forecast."

You can access this regularly updated Drought Monitor at:

http://enso.unl.edu/monitor/monitor.html

Although the info is regional, it still offers important tendencies.

Just looked real interesting, especially in light of last year's drought.

Rose


From goodows@excite.com Thu Feb 10 16:59:01 2000
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Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 13:59:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley <goodows@excite.com>
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We have a good niche at resturants with arugula (which I am now aware that
$4.00lb is way too low), salad mix @ $5.00lb if they buy 5lbs or more
otherwise it is $7lb, fresh garlic@ $1 per bulb, Shallots ($3lb), baby
squash @ $3.50lb and french beans/haricot verts at $3lb.

At farmer's markets organic eggs @ $2.75 sell well as do the lettuces @
$4lb, salad mix @ $7lb, garlic @ $1ea, bright lights chard @$2lb and
heirloom tomatoes @$1.50lb. We also have raspberries, pears and strawberries
which no one else has at any of our markets.
This year I will try golden beets-I have planted them in the past with bad
results. This year I think they will get planted into soil blocks and
transplanted out instead of direct seeding because they have such bad
germination and I have so few seed-but at least I got some seed today (yay!)
from seed saver after ordering from 3 different companies and finding all
but one were already out.


Lucy Goodman-Owsley
Boulder Belt CSA
New Paris, OH
Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa
Organic Farming and Gardening Forum:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705
Want Social Change? Join a CSA!





_______________________________________________________
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From gutierrez-lagatta@home.com Thu Feb 10 17:23:14 2000
X-Mailer: Lyris Web Interface
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:23:6
Subject: Re: Basil tips, was Re: Market niches-harvesting herbs
To: market-farming
From: "Adriana Gutierrez" <gutierrez-lagatta@home.com>



> For large quantities, we found that growing for a single harvest and
> replanting (using 1-2 week old transplants) was the most economical.  
Paula, I found myself thinking about that option today as I harvested my 
basil.  It certainly would produce a beautiful, uniform product.

> able to produce 15-20# in a 4'x8' grow bed on a rotational basis every
> four-five weeks (transplant to harvest, depending on temperatures). 
How old are your transplants when you transfer them to your beds?  What 
type of spacing do you use?

> 12-18" range -- all tender growth and ready for harvesting.  Wholesalers and
> restaurants generally use the entire plant (soft stem and all) in their
> pestos, keeping the small top shoots for decorative touches. 
I was talking to an aquaponic grower today who, in a former life grew basil 
from clones which he selected to provide the shortest internodal length, 
therefore the best yield.

From flowers@rt66.com Thu Feb 10 17:58:05 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: New Drought Damage Tool


>just as a comparator we in the sw are at 30-50% of normal snow levels which
provide most of our irrigation water ..this it the third ear we are in
severe drought and the fifth year of substantial drought 
so count your blessings and use drip:-)

martin
Martin Connaughton
Wilderness Flowers
223 North Guadalupe St.  pmb # 159
Santa Fe, NM 87501
zone 3-4-5 depending on mother nature .. zone 5 this year and no snow

5059898337 office/home
5057578337 farm april/november
5059203421 cell



From flowers@rt66.com Thu Feb 10 18:18:33 2000
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To: "market farming" <market-farming@franklin.oit.unc.edu>
From: flowers@rt66.com (Wilderness Flowers)
Subject: Re: Market niches:prices


>wow 

at sf farmers market we get:

snow peas $6 /#;sugar snaps $6.5:$3.25 wholesale 
spinach $8 ie. $2 per 1/4 pound:$5 wholesale to cooperative store
got out of salad mix not sufficient return for labor too much competition

potatoes $2/# 1.5 over 10 pounds;fingelings $2.5

heirloom tomatoes are $3.50 a pound 

then agin irrigated 'farm' land is 35-50k ....an acre actually its the
developemnt value not the ag value..

real food for real prices... i dont get a check from the usda or  adm nor do
i suspect most of the other farmers on the list  maybe we should !

martin



We have a good niche at resturants with arugula (which I am now aware that
>$4.00lb is way too low), salad mix @ $5.00lb if they buy 5lbs or more
>otherwise it is $7lb, fresh garlic@ $1 per bulb, Shallots ($3lb), baby
>squash @ $3.50lb and french beans/haricot verts at $3lb.
>
>At farmer's markets organic eggs @ $2.75 sell well as do the lettuces @
>$4lb, salad mix @ $7lb, garlic @ $1ea, bright lights chard @$2lb and
>heirloom tomatoes @$1.50lb. We also have raspberries, pears and strawberries
>which no one else has at any of our markets.
>This year I will try golden beets-I have planted them in the past with bad
>results. This year I think they will get planted into soil blocks and
>transplanted out instead of direct seeding because they have such bad
>germination and I have so few seed-but at least I got some seed today (yay!)
>from seed saver after ordering from 3 different companies and finding all
>but one were already out.
>
>
>Lucy Goodman-Owsley
>Boulder Belt CSA
>New Paris, OH
>Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boul
