[cc-community] Copyright enforcement and CC BY-NC licenses

Jim Baker frstprin at mninter.net
Mon Aug 4 20:45:09 EDT 2008

This is a useful thread; please keep it all together until finished.

On Aug 4, 2008, at 3:33 PM, drew Roberts wrote:

> On Monday 04 August 2008 14:51:16 jonathon wrote:
>> On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 05:38, drew Roberts  wrote:
>>>> The club I used to hang out at had a US$10.00 cover charge.
>>> But they are unrelated, right? You did indicate that the venue pays.
>> I was using the amount the band earned, as an indication of how much
>> the collecting socieites claim.
> Yup, I figured as much, just trying to confirm.
>>>> Here is the way one club owner explained the costs to me.
>>>> Have a "three drink minimum".
>>>> * The first drink goes to the collecting society;
>>>> * The second drink is split between the various licensing 
>>>> authorities,
>>>> and the band;
>>> So the band gets the door and a part of the second drink?
>> Advertising that the band is playing at the venue.  All food and
>> beverages that the band consumes.
>> I've forgotten the other expenses that get chalked up as "the band".
>> These are deducted from beverage sales.  The band gets none of the
>> beverage revenue.  (There is one exception.  If there is no cover
>> charge, then the performance fee for the band is also charged here.)
>>> Anyone know more about how these things work?
>>> What about on nights when no band plays?
>> Assuming neither a DJ, nor a live band, then those nights have less
>> revenue. As a percentage of gross revenue, net profit is higher.
>>> Are the fees different for live versus non-live music?
>> Different collecting societies.
> Really? I think down here it is PRS no matter what type of music. What 
> are the
> different societies there by type of music?
>>> How does that jukebox game I dimly remember work if it still does?
>> It is much easier to "control" collection society payments with a
>> jukebox, than with either a DJ, or a live band.
> I thought at one time, in the US, jukebox music enjoyed some sort of 
> royalty
> exemption going way back to early days. That was the game I was 
> referring to.
>> For starters, the play list won't be changed, unless you change it.
>> How frequently the songs are played is something you can't control.
>> (Most jukeboxes provide information on how frequently a specific
>> selection is played.)
>>> Actually, if I understood this bit properly, the automatic parts only
>>> apply to non-dramatic music / audio? You can't take advantage of 
>>> this for
>>> dramatic musical works from what I understood.
>> If you want to use the songs "Acid Queen", "Pinball Wizard", and
>> "Tommy can you hear me?", in your work, you pay royalties to one
>> collection society --- I've forgotten which one --- and go on your
>> way. They do not have the right to deny you permission.
> Is this only if the songs have already been released outside of the 
> rock
> opera?
>> If you want to perform "Tommy: The Rock Opera", you get to pay
>> royalties to a different collection society. This one has the right to
>> deny you permission.
>> If you want to make a movie version of "Tommy: The Rock Opera", you
>> talk to a different collection society.  This one also has the right
>> to deny permission.
>> If you want to release "Tommy: The Rock Opera" as an audio book, you
>> talk to yet another collection society.   This one also has the right
>> to deny permission.
>> If you want to release "Tommy:The Rock Opera", as a talking book, you
>> can do so, without obtaining permission from anybody, or paying any
>> royalties, if the appropriate box on the copyright form is checked.
>> (There are some restrictions on how it can be distributed.)
> Amazing isn't it?
>>>> For audio media, it is a predetermined amount.
>>> Actually, I think even here you can negotiate better terms than the 
>>> law
>>> requires and I always understood that the big boys at least 
>>> generally do.
>> You need a fairly large catalog, and good lawyers, for that
>> negotiation to be cost effective.
> Just a little benefit for the big boys I guess.
> We never did finish up with how a person can collect royalties on a 
> work that
> they use and build upon under someone else's NC license without 
> running afoul
> of the NC license.
> I think, if I understand you correctly, you are telling how they can 
> do this
> with a statutory license, effectively sidestepping the whole cc 
> licensing
> scheme completely.
> For instance, say I write and perform and release a song and put it 
> under cc
> BY-sa or BY-NC-SA, can't someong coma long and record a cover and make 
> use of
> the statutory license and keep their cover recording ARR and not 
> license it
> under wither cc "SA" license at all?
>> xan
>> jonathon
> all the best,
> drew
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It takes 20 years of hard work to become an overnight success."
--Diana Rankin,
  writer and public speaker

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