[cc-community] ASCAP VS CREATIVE COMMONS

drew Roberts zotz at 100jamz.com
Sat Jan 6 18:35:47 EST 2007


On Saturday 06 January 2007 12:04 pm, Terry Hancock wrote:
> drew Roberts wrote:
> > Bjorn, like I say, you are entitled to your belief and I am not against
> > success in those efforts. It is just that if those efforts result in a
> > better situation for people using NC while leaving those using plain
> > BY-SA or BY no better off, I do not personally care. That is, it will not
> > benefit me personally nor will it benefit the cause I am trying to
> > advance. (If it does benefit the authors of Free works, that is
> > different. Perhaps I am not expressing myself properly here. I am trying
> > though.)
>
> Which license applies isn't relevant, drew. This isn't a license problem.

Terry, you must have missed my request/suggestion/question then. There is an 
element of a license issue with respect to BY-Sa and BY licenses. Follow the 
thread back for my input. (I think it was this thread.)
>
> The only way this could be solved in a way that could "result in a
> better situation for people using NC while leaving those using plain
> BY-SA or BY no better off" is to write NC-specific legislation into the
> law.

No, not so as a radio station, with no changes to the BY-Sa or BY licenses 
will never have to pay for the right to air those songs while they will need 
to pay to use songs with the NC option.
>
> For grassroots movements, that basically never happens. However, what
> *is* usually feasible is to attack the basic root of the problem, which
> is *exclusivity* and *anti-competition* (and of course *preventing*
> keyhole laws from sneaking through via said public ridicule). Thus any
> realistic solution for By-NC-* users is going to equally benefit ANY
> independent licensing of music, whether CC or not and even whether
> free-licensed or not (which, for completeness, includes our beloved By
> and By-SA licenses!).

No it will not as the people choosing NC reserve commercial use to themselves 
while I do not. Therefore, what benefits NC authors may very well not benefit 
me at all.
>
> Since, for a grassroots movement to succeed in changing a government's
> mind requires *unity*, it is extremely counterproductive to plant seeds
> of discord such as saying 'I don't care what happens to NC users'! 

That might be so if I expressed a desire for them to fail in their efforts 
instead of wishing them success even where I don't care and in fact where 
their success may hurt my efforts.

Terry, the thing is, I see little unity between those working for Free to 
succeed and those using NC and ND. CC just happens to have licenses that they 
use and that I use, but they are not advancing the cause of Free works. That 
is their right, and they are doing well to use the licenses they choose as 
opposed to ARR, but that is about the size of things as I see them.

> This 
> is a situation where ALL independent sale of music is blocked, and thus
> ALL people who want such sales to be legal should present a unified front.

Isn't this statement a bit of a stretch? Are you saying that artists in those 
countries are not allowed to burn CDs and sell them if the songs on them have 
any sort of CC license?
>
> Of course, neither drew nor I live in Holland, so this isn't our fight
> (we aren't part of said government's constituency), but international
> unity of opinion on the idea is still support for those who are Dutch
> citizens.
>
> >>>>Note that this is NOT a problem for CC to solve. It can't. It doesn't
> >>>>matter what the legal structure of the licenses is.

That is correct, but if it is solved, it still will not help the BY-SA and BY 
authors might be helped if we can work out a license change along the lines 
as I have outlined. At least I htink so, but no one has been willing to 
engage me on those thoughts.
> >>>
> >>>I am not sure that is fully established yet, although that would be my
> >>>take based on what I have learned so far.
>
> The point is that the law permits these monopoly juggernauts to control
> the marketplace. Their controls include blocking ALL independent sale of
> music through their exclusive contracts.

Only if you are signed with them right? Again I ask about the possibility of 
an end run around them via the US collection societies. Does anyone know this 
to be impossible? Possible? Lean one way or the other?
>
> I believe it *is* theoretically possible for a movement of dissenting
> clubs to form that only play free music. But while that's a nice theory,
> it lacks punch as a means of changing the society: that's a formula for
> creating a tiny "outcast sanctuary" outside of the system, not making
> the system more friendly to independent licensing (which includes ALL
> free licensing, including ALL CC licenses, including By and By-SA).

Well, one thing doing such things might do and that might work in less extreme 
situations is to point out hos the artists rights and wishes are being 
trodden under foot.
>
> In fact, the irony is that the only CC licenses which provide a legal
> lever against this system *are* the NC licenses. 

Bingo. This is why I made the request I did such that the BY-SA and BY license 
might also have some leverage.

> Because the best legal 
> basis for a lawsuit is that the collecting societies are collecting on
> rights they don't own 

Mind you, this is true even for the Free licenses now. It would be fraud if 
they did not have the sweetheart laws. They are collecting fees for works for 
which no fees are due.

> (there's another, which is the right of "free 
> venues" to exist).
>
> >>Yes, it is a political issue and CC cannot change this, but CC has to
> >>- at least - be aware of this and the fact that this is actually
> >>witholding CC in EU for musicians.
>
> Absolutely, Bjorn. I agree. I'm not sure what CC can do about it, unless
> to politically support the opposition to these laws.
>
> This is much more the kind of activity supported by the FFII, though:
>
> http://www.ffii.org/
>
> (Which is European, of course -- I'm guessing you already know of them
> from their campaigns against software patent legislation in the EU)
>
> I would mention the Electronic Frontier Foundation, except that they are
> in the USA, and I don't think they have the ability fight international
> cases:
>
> http://www.eff.org/
>
> Cheers,
> Terry

all the best,

drew
-- 
(da idea man)
National Novel Writing Month
Sayings (Winner 2006)
http://www.ourmedia.org/node/262954


More information about the cc-community mailing list