[cc-community] ASCAP VS CREATIVE COMMONS

drew Roberts zotz at 100jamz.com
Fri Dec 22 20:04:54 EST 2006


On Friday 22 December 2006 07:44 pm, Bjorn Wijers wrote:
> Drew et al,
snip
> >
> > Why is there some law against it, or are the collecting societies just
> > being pic headed?
>
> Mostly because the rights collecting society (in the Netherlands) seems
> not to be willing to change their contracts from an exclusive contract
> (they get all the rights) to a non-exclusive contract. As far as my
> knowledge goes this is the main issue between CC licenses and their
> contracts.

OK, so they are being pig headed.
>
> > In the US at least, I htink a new collecting society could spring up that
> > would agree to accept artists using CC licenses.
> >
> > Does the law in come countries give monopoly protections to certain
> > blessed collecting societies?
>
> Yes, sadly we have a government that did this. Although I belief this
> will change due to EU regulations. Paul and other people on this list
> are probably more knowledgeable than me in this matter.

So just to be perfectly clear, if another group wanted to start an alternate 
collecting society in the Netherlands, it would be illegal for them to do so. 
Correct? (Like in the US there is ASCAP and BMI. That can't happen in the 
Netherlands.)
>
> >> 2) The collecting society will collect the money and distribute it among
> >> their members.
> >
> > So, how do they collect the money for works they have no rights to.
> > Wouldn't this be fraud? Can you explain how their deals with the artists
> > works and how how deals with say radio stations work?
>
> I cannot explain how it works (yet). I'm currently trying to get more
> information on this, but let me be very frank on this:
>
> The information is pretty hard to get and the rights collection
> societies are all but open or transparent. It's probably easier to
> infiltrate in some gang than get any insights in the innerworkings of
> the Dutch rights collection societies ;)

You use the plural here. Is there only one collection society there or is 
there more than one?
>
>
> >> So the CC-BY and CC-BY-SA artists will not see a penny
> >> back. 

Fine, but what about BY-NC, could they sue the radio stations or venues?

> >> Again this is the situation in the Netherlands. It is getting so 
> >> bad that I know of several bands and musicians that were using Creative
> >> Commons licenses (Silece is Sexy, Feverdream etc) and stopped using it
> >> because of this situation. Although these bands would love to keep on
> >> using CC.

There is little doubt in my mind that the whole system is broken and set up to 
benefit the big boys and that that is just how they like it.
> >>
> >> 3) It seems even venues usually pay a blanket license (stil researching,
> >> so I'm not certain yet) and thus the CC artists get less money when
> >> performing than a non-CC artist.
> >
> > I don't follow this logic. Can you elaborate?
>
> The venues pay the rights collection society (RCS) for the music being
> played, but because the venue seem to use a blanket license the money
> for CC artists will be collected allthough the artists won't get a penny
> from it. Thus the CC artist get less money than those being part of a
> rights collecting society.
>
> CC-artist = gig money
>
> Non-CC and member of RCS = gig money + royalties

CC-artist just says, look, because you are paying a blanket license and my 
work is not covered, you need to pay a proportionate share of the blanket 
license to me for this gig. I am my own collection society. (I guess they 
wouldn't get the gig perhaps...)
>
> >
> > If a radio station were to start up that only played CC By and BY-SA
> > music, could the collecting society demand payments?
>
> No. This is a nice clear example, but sadly not how it works in reality.

Yet.

> No 'serious' radiostation or any media outlet would be concentrating
> only on licenses as a filter to determine what to play and what not. And
> they shouldn't. 

Yes, they should. I am serious and I am getting more and more that way. I have 
been kicking around hte thought of "copyright pollution" in my head for some 
time now. I need to think on it further and write something up.

On a related thought, I personally am trying to devote more and more of my 
"consumption" time to Free works so that if I creative reworking pops into my 
head, I am free to run with it.

> Personally, I wouldn't create a favorite playlist based 
> on license nor would I select my dinner based on color ;)

You of course are free to run your life as you wish within certain broad 
parameters. If you want to eat blue mashed potatoes and green mean, be my 
guest.
>
>
> If we are not able to resolve these issues it doesn't matter which
> specific version of the CC licenses at all at this moment. We need to
> resolve this if CC is ever to be usefull for musical creators in the
> Netherlands at all. If we can solve (some of) these issues we can
> concentrate on educating people why we would like them to use BY or
> BY-SA instead of other licenses, but first we need to solve some more
> fundamental issues.

You are of course free to hold this view. I think that it is more important to 
build up a large enough body copyleft works to be compelling for re-use. So 
far, I have written the first drafts of two novels which are under BY-SA and 
some programs which are under the GPL.

I dislike NC partly because I want artists who build on my works to be able to 
earn a living.

That said, I do not wish to see your approach fail. I wish you all the best in 
getting the collection societies of Europe to see sense.
>
> grtz
> BjornW
>

all the best,

drew
-- 
(da idea man)
National Novel Writing Month
Sayings (Winner 2006)
http://www.ourmedia.org/node/262954


More information about the cc-community mailing list