[b-hebrew] (MQ: "Deep Place" - THREAD CLOSED
Yigal.Levin at biu.ac.il
Mon Jan 9 12:01:02 EST 2012
Uzi, this thread has been closed.
From: b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:b-hebrew-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Uzi Silber
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2012 6:51 PM
To: JimStinehart at aol.com
Cc: b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org; chavoux at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] (MQ: "Deep Place"
I just read Beresheet 13: first of all, Hevron is cited only in pasook
18, not 9 and 11 (as you mention). Secondly all it says there
regarding Hevron is that Eloney Mamreh was located there. nothing
about 'opposite of east', etc.
On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 10:51 AM, <JimStinehart at aol.com> wrote:
> Chavoux Luyt:
> 1. You wrote [near the end of your post]: “Hebron is mentioned in
> Egyptian inscriptions from the Late Bronze Age (i.e. long before David)
and in the
> same region as the later Hebron.”
> That’s where you’re wrong. The five letters XBRWN are never attested as a
> geographical place name prior to post-exilic times.
> XBR, usually transliterated as Khibur, is attested in the 13th and 12th
> centuries BCE as a place in the Beqa Valley in eastern Lebanon. To the
> my knowledge, no mainstream, respectable scholar accepts the non-scholarly
> claim that Khibur/XBR on those Rameside lists may possibly be XBRWN/Hebron
> in southern hill country.
> 2. You wrote: “Because there is no other indication that there ever were
> two separate cities with the same name.”
> That’s not true. Here are some of the things that Genesis says about the
> Patriarchs’ XBRWN, none of which could fit King David’s XBRWN high up in
> southern hill country.
> (a) The Patriarchs’ XBRWN is the opposite of “east” of Bethel. Genesis
> 13: 9, 11.
> (b) The Patriarchs’ XBRWN is “a deep place”: (MQ at Genesis 37: 14. (MQ
> is often applied to broad, true valleys in the Shephelah, but in the Bible
> (MQ is never applied to a high altitude mountain valley.
> (c) The Patriarchs’ XBRWN was ruled by an Amorite princeling who was
> allied with tent-dwellers and various princelings [Anir and Eshcol].
> 13. That perfectly fits Milk-Ilu in the Amarna Letters, who historically
> dominated the Ayalon Valley and allied with habiru/tent-dwellers and
> princelings. Nothing of that type is attested historically in southern
> country. Moreover, note that the XBR root of XBRWN, and the Hebrew
> of Milk-Ilu, namely MLK-Y-)L, appear side by side at Genesis 46: 17 in the
> list of Jacob’s descendants. The text thereby subtly lets us know that
> location of the Patriarchs’ XBRWN, whose root is XBR, was where the
> princeling in the Patriarchal Age/Amarna Age had the Amorite version of
> name MLK-Y-)L, namely Milk-Ilu: the Ayalon Valley!
> 3. You wrote: “Moreover, it is clearly stated that the place only got
> name "Hebron" later, after the settlement of Israel in Canaan.”
> That’s not stated in the Patriarchal narratives!
> At least in the Bronze Age, and likely in the Iron Age as well, most
> valleys in Canaan did not have formal names. Each city and small town had
> formal name, but not the valleys. Biblical authors were therefore forced
> necessity to come up with a Biblical nickname for (i) the deep valley
> Patriarchs sojourned well west of Bethel, and (ii) the high altitude
> mountain valley where King David made his first great conquests. Based on
> various meanings of XBRWN [not discussed in this post], the perfect
> both places was XBRWN.
> 4. You wrote: “The ")MQ" of Hebron can be any of the valleys around the
> city [in southern hill country].”
> That simply is not true. (MQ is used in the Bible only to describe “a
> place” that is either (i) itself a broad, true valley, like the Ayalon
> Valley in the Shephelah, or (ii) a valley that is connected to a broad,
> valley, like the Rephaim Valley southwest of Jerusalem that connects with
> Elah Valley in the Shephelah.
> (MQ is never used in the Bible to describe a high altitude mountain valley
> that is neither itself a broad true valley nor connected to a broad true
> valley. King David’s Hebron is the highest altitude place in Canaan where
> people lived, and as such it is antithetical to being described in
> Hebrew as “a deep place”: (MQ. Rather, the Bible repeatedly, and not
> surprisingly, uses the words (LH and HR in describing King David’s Hebron,
> /(LH in the “mountains”/HR, while never ever using either of those two
> words to describe the Patriarchs’ Hebron. Why? Because those two Hebrons
> completely different locales: one is the low-lying Ayalon Valley west of
> Bethel in the Shephelah, and the other is an incredibly high place on the
> southern end of the Ridge Route. The former is (MQ, whereas the latter is
> rightly characterized by (LH and HR, with such concepts being antithetical
> If the last 40 chapters of Genesis were talking about the highest altitude
> place in Canaan where people can live [King David’s Hebron], where
> mountains dominate the scene, there’s no way that the word HR would never
> used even once to describe such place. Not! The Patriarchal narratives
> use the word HR 15 times, but not once in connection with the Patriarchs’
> XBRWN. That’s because the Patriarchs’ XBRWN was the low-lying (MQ of the
> Ayalon Valley.
> Jim Stinehart
> Evanston, Illinois
> b-hebrew mailing list
> b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
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