[b-hebrew] Genesis 30:20-30
jc.bhebrew at googlemail.com
Mon May 17 18:27:58 EDT 2010
Further if we were to adopt your strict formulaic understanding here as you
point to Genesis 24:47 and 15 as evidence for then that would make Zibeon
Esau's wife. Context Yitzhak! Context! Your strict understanding of this
formula is evidently misguided.
On 18 May 2010 01:08, James Christian <jc.bhebrew at googlemail.com> wrote:
> Yes Yitzhak you are right I learned Hebrew under James Davila but even
> before that I knew that Hebrew words for son and daughter can also mean
> grandson and granddaughter. The simple Hebrew text you are pointing to
> translates as:
> Oholibamah daughter of Anah granddaughter of Zibeon.
> Also being fluent in Hebrew I'm sure you can read the simple phrase at the
> beginning of Genesis 36:20 which quite clearly starts a section about the
> genealogy of the Horites from Seir on (great great granddaddy Horite). That
> reference is made to the land of Edom is referring to a geographical
> location not a family tree. The family tree is quite clearly Horite. Edom's
> family tree is from verse 9 to 19. 20 to 29 are about the Horites who lived
> in Edom before Esau's lot (the Edomites). Verses 31 to 42 seems to be about
> Edomite kings in Edom (presumably after they had driven the Horites out).
> We get a bit of mixing between the Horites and the Edomites through Anah's
> daughter (who is also Zibeon's granddaughter).
> I understand that you feel the Samaritan tradition reads )emim. Please
> provide a translation that makes contextual sense if you truly feel this to
> be the case. We are all waiting eagerly.
> James Christian
> On 18 May 2010 00:40, Yitzhak Sapir <yitzhaksapir at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 1:02 AM, James Christian wrote:
>> > I've got to be honest with you here Yitzhak, you've totally lost me. The
>> > genealogy is a Horite genealogy not an Edomite one. The girl 10 verses
>> > earlier is his daughter (Oholibamah) not Anah himself. In the Horite
>> > genealogy it is mentioned that Anah had a daughter Oholibamah while it
>> > usual to only list sons. This is evidently to link Anah in some way
>> > to Esau through one of his wives. Anah, as I understand the text, was
>> one of
>> > Esau's father in laws.
>> > Anyway, just what you were trying to suggest with your lengthy
>> discussion of
>> > the Samaritan version is still completely beyond me. You make some vague
>> > mention of the Nephilim but failed to provide an alternative reading
>> > would make sense.
>> > James Christian
>> James, I have got no idea how to respond here. I keep looking at it every
>> and I wonder how to respond. I mean, I was under the understanding that
>> had a year's study of college first year Hebrew under Jim Davila, based on
>> past communication. Now, here is a verse in pretty simple Hebrew that
>> אהליבמה בת ענה בת צבעון, yet you write, "The girl 10 verses earlier is
>> his daughter
>> (Oholibamah) not Anah himself." Well, the first בת relates to Oholibamah
>> the second בת relates to (anah. This is how it works in Hebrew. See in
>> Genesis 24:47 - בת בתואל בן נחור. So, at least at a very basic reading,
>> 36:14 and Gen 36:2, suggest that (anah was a girl. I tried to see if
>> the cantillation
>> marks provide disambiguation here, but comparing them to Gen 24:47 or
>> it doesn't seem to me that they do.
>> Then regarding the Horite/Hurrian genealogy, you suggest it has nothing to
>> with Edom even though in verse 21 it reads clearly -- "in the land of
>> Edom." So
>> you would like to suggest Edomites would not identify with this because
>> only Horites would identify with this particular section? The whole
>> deals with Edom. Verse 1 identifies Esau with Edom. Verse 8-9 again
>> identify Esau with Edom, as the father of the Edomites, and as Edom
>> himself, as well as linking him with Se(ir. This goes on throughout the
>> chapter, including verse 21 which relates (anah as one of the chiefs,
>> of Se(ir, in Edom. So I don't really understand how your statement that
>> is a Horite genealogy and not an Edomite one goes along with what I read
>> the Hebrew text of my Bible.
>> As for the lengthy discussion, I find it hard to believe that you read
>> the entire mail and failed to see that I was supporting the reading )emim,
>> rather than yemim of the MT. I also find it curious that you continue to
>> note how the Samaritan tradition here is in agreement with this story of
>> the "bloke who found some hot springs." I guess you're not one to let
>> evidence get in the way.
>> Yitzhak Sapir
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