[b-hebrew] )BL Mistranslated at I Samuel 6: 18
K Randolph
kwrandolph at gmail.com
Wed Mar 4 19:53:35 EST 2009
Jim:
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 6:48 AM, <JimStinehart at aol.com> wrote:
> Karl:
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> 1. You wrote: “First of all, we are talking about Hebrew, not Canaanite.”
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> That is a misleading statement. The Hebrews passively recorded many Canaanite geographical place names. Thus the presence of )BL in a Canaanite geographical place name, such as Abel-Beth-Maacah, does not mean that )BL was used as a common noun regarding places in Canaan in Biblical Hebrew. )BL is never used that way in the Bible.
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Oh? Where is your source? This is the third time I ask this question.
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> Accordingly, it is quite important to distinguish between (i) Biblical Hebrew common nouns in good standing that are used in the Bible outside of geographical place names, such as XBR and XBL, as opposed to (ii) a Canaanite word that only appears in the Bible as the beginning part of a geographical place name. XBR and XBL are good Biblical Hebrew words. )BL is not (at least outside of Daniel, as discussed below) a regular Biblical Hebrew word regarding a topographical feature of Canaan (meadow, river, etc.). [)BL meaning “mourning” is a Biblical Hebrew word.]
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Are you sure the two are not connected, namely through the tears that flow
during mourning?
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> 2. You wrote: “Secondly, )BL, alternate spelling )WBL, is found in 14 verses in Tanakh: as early as Numbers before Israel crossed the Jordan, also in Judges, Samuel
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> and Kings as well as Daniel.”
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> )WBL is found nowhere but in Daniel.
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Shows how much you know about the Bible.
> Surely you would agree that one unique reference in Daniel to a river in Mesopotamia or Persia can have little bearing on the origin of XBRWN/XBRN/“Hebron” as the name of the place where Abraham sojourns.
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Of course, it’s a completely different word, different spelling, different
meaning.
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> In all the other cases you cite, )BL is the first part of a Canaanite geographical place name. Abel-Shittim at Numbers 33: 49. Abel-Meholah at Judges 7: 22. Abel-Keramiym at Judges 11: 33. The Sorek Valley, literally “Great Meadowland at Beth-shemesh”, at I Samuel 6: 18. The other references in Samuel are to Abel-Beth-Maacah. The references in Kings are either to Abel-Beth-Maacah or Abel-Meholah.
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The reference in Daniel is also to a specific watercourse, the same as the
other examples.
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> I agree with the general scholarly view that )BL in the pre-Daniel books means “meadow” or something similar, and is different from )WBL or )BL in Daniel meaning “river”.
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Is that “general scholarly view” objectively true, or only in your mind,
like many of your other claims? Or only a unique view that you claim is
general?
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> 3. You wrote: “Third, do not confuse this noun with a participle concerning the action of water flowing, as you did with two mentions in Isaiah.”
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> Isaiah 30: 25 and 44: 4 use a different word: YBL. YBL likely is related to the words )WBL and )BL used in Daniel, and is focused on water. YBL in other contexts refers to the action of water flowing. It’s all focused on water, which is not how the Canaanite word )BL is used, either in the Bible (excluding Daniel) or in secular history.
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> 4. You wrote: “Fourthly, I asked you, where do you get your strange definition, and you did not answer me. You did not get it from studying the text of Hebrew.”
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> Excluding Daniel, )BL in context in the Bible (as a topographical word) always seems to refer to “meadow” or “excellent pastureland”.
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That’s what I question, and so far you have provided no reason to believe
you. Whereas there is good reason from within the text that )BL means
watercourse.
> Moreover, if you look at the context of how )BL is used historically, such as on the Thutmosis III list and as elsewhere attested in Canaanite geographical place names, it once again means “meadow” or “excellent pastureland”. This is the definition that secular historians tell us. The Bible and secular history are fully in accord on this.
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The 10th century BC Thutmosis III / Shisherka list is irrelevant until after
you verify your claims, which so far you have failed to do. You haven’t even
tried.
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> Finally, in a previous post, I noted the only decent footnote I found in any translation regarding )BL at I Samuel 6: 18:
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> “Reading ‘eben with some Heb. mss., Septuagint, and Targum, most mss. and
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> editions ‘abel, ‘meadow[?]’.” 2003 JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh
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Looking at the context, this is a time that the word refers not to a
geological formation, but to the action of mourning. That footnote is wrong.
You need to learn Hebrew and read it in Hebrew, not depend on translations.
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> Why should that be any surprise to anyone? Why would that be considered controversial?
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Because you have not demonstrated that it is true.
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> Jim Stinehart
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> Evanston, Illinois
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Karl W. Randolph.
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