[b-hebrew] About Dagesh's

Isaac Fried if at math.bu.edu
Thu May 29 16:15:52 EDT 2008


Vadim,



  1.. Your theory that the dagesh is a cantillation mark is interesting, but 
even if so it has no place in Hebrew secular writing, which is my point.
  2.. Could you give us some examples to a stop by dagesh to avoid jamming?
Isaac Fried, Boston University

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Vadim Cherny" <him at vadimcherny.org>
To: "Isaac Fried" <if at math.bu.edu>
Cc: <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [b-hebrew] About Dagesh's


> Dagesh is not really redundant. Do you think that dagesh worked just fine 
> for two thousand years so that the Masoretes heard it, and suddenly became 
> redundant in 60 years of the Modern Hebrew?
> Dagesh was just never meant for speech, it is a very proper cantillation 
> device, as indeed the entire Masoretic marking system is a cantillation 
> guide.
> In singing, dagesh is very necessary to avoid jamming by forcing 
> syllabification.
>
> Vadim Cherny
>
> Isaac Fried wrote:
>> <div class="moz-text-flowed" style="font-family: -moz-fixed">1. Well 
>> known biblical exceptions for words starting with BB, BP and KK are worth 
>> calling attention to:
>>
>> עַל-לִבּוֹ בְּבֹאוֹ אֶל הַקֹּדֶשׁ Exodus 28: 29.
>>
>> וַיְהִי בְּבוֹאוֹ וַיִּתְקַע בַּשּׁוֹפָר Judges 3:27
>>
>> וְאִכָּבְדָה בְּפַרְעֹה וּבְכָל חֵילוֹ Exodus 14:4
>>
>> הֲלֹא כְּכַרְכְּמִישׁ כַּלְנוֹ Isaiah 10:9
>>
>> 2. Indeed, few vestiges to soft initial B, K, P are left us now 
>> in: )AXAREY-KEN, LIPNEY-KEN, )AP-AL-PI-KEN, LO)-KEN? And LO)-KLUM. On the 
>> other hand B, K, P are hard now [by sanction of the Hebrew Academy] even 
>> following the close )IY-, ‘no-, un- dis-’, LO)-, ‘no, not’, and DU-, 
>> ‘double’, as in )IY-B.HIR-UT , ‘lack of clarity’, LO)-K.A$IR, ‘unfit’, 
>> DU-K.IWUNI, ‘bidirectional’.
>>
>> 3. Abolishing the dagesh altogether from Hebrew script would clear the 
>> orthography of a redundant mark and simplify the grammar.
>>
>>
>>
>> Isaac Fried, Boston University
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Yaakov Stein" <yaakov_s at rad.com>
>> To: <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 7:05 AM
>> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] About Dagesh's
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> ' Ve'avarti VE'eretz mitzrayim ba'lailah hazeh, ve-hikeiti
>>> CHOL-bechor....'
>>>
>>>> I was wondering if anybody could explain why the usual dagesh-ed form
>>> is not used!
>>>
>>> The rule is very simple actually. The dagesh is dropped after an open
>>> syllable.
>>>
>>> This is always the case after an open syllable in the middle of a word,
>>> and is also the case after open syllables at the end of the previous
>>> word
>>> when the two words are "connected" (i.e. the previous word has a
>>> connecting cantillation mark).
>>>
>>> Yaakov (J) Stein
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> b-hebrew mailing list
>>> b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
>>
>>
>> </div> 



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