[b-hebrew] Alter's translation (Was: Daniel 6:27 (timeindefinite) II)

Herman Meester crazymulgogi at gmail.com
Wed Nov 23 13:10:10 EST 2005


Dear Karl,
Hebrew being VSO doesn't mean it's the only possible order, just that
it's the basic order. It's simply a matter of statistics. As you in a
way admitted, we cannot use poetic clauses to describe Hebrew syntax.
Could you, then, produce clear prose clauses where the *basic* order
of BH seems not to be VSO?

Do you mean the reason to open a clause with a verb is usually its
prefix? Even then, the result is usually VSO. You can hardly claim
that inside the imperfect there is a pronoun.

What I would most like to hear from you is what you think of the clear
parrallel in Gen 2,4-7.
Regards
Herman

2005/11/23, Karl Randolph <kwrandolph at email.com>:
> Herman:
>
> You are new here, so you don't know my background. I have read Tanakh so many times, cover to cover, that I have lost count. I have learned that much of what I was taught at school when I studied Hebrew in class was wrong.
>
> One of those is the concept that Biblical Hebrew was VSO. While reading Tanakh I found many verses SVO, and even some OSV or OVS or some other interesting variation. Yes, many of those are in the poetic sections, but enough found in the prose sections that the number one reason to find the verb opening a sentence is where the verb has prefixes and suffixes relating to personal pronouns. Importance is more important than syntactical rules.
>
> In short, Genesis 1:2 records a perfectly correct complete short sentence according to Biblical Hebrew usage.
>
> As far as "tense" is concerned, there were rather informative and drawn out discussions with Dr. Furuli in particular showing how that is not a correct way to analyse Hebrew verbal usage. While I have not done the statistical analysis that he has done, my gut reaction from experience backs him up.
>
> Alter is asking us to accept a one time use of the B- prefix that is different from all other uses, a practice that I reject without further justification. Exceptions to a rule are not good data for understanding rules, especially when only a few recognized that exception that many others claim is a mishandling of the data.
>
> In closing, Alter's "translation" is recognized by many as a mistranslation.
>
> Karl W. Randolph.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Herman Meester" <crazymulgogi at gmail.com>
> > Karl,
> > To your question where the "when" comes from: I think I explained that
> > already, but I'll clarify:
> > if we have "in-beginning (of)", we are dealing with a point in time,
> > or at least the beginning of time itself; or we have to assume there
> > are timeless beginnings.
> > If we say "when... began", we have exactly the same thing: a point in
> > time. I call that a literal translation, because I believe that the
> > syntax a one language doesn't always follow the syntax of another. In
> > your way of thinking, you cannot "literally" translate most relative
> > clauses with asher, or should I say, hardly any sentence of the Hebrew
> > Bible.
> >
> > About your second point, I'm sorry Karl, but I must say your
> > understanding of the word we/wa "and" is a little bit odd. We/wa is
> > not about subordination at all, only word order, the kind of tense or
> > mode employed, and possibly words like we/wa *combined with* a certain
> > structure indicates subordination. How can you think that I say "if we
> > have two wayyiqtol clauses, the first is subordinate to the second"
> > just because I say that in Gen 1 we have an example of a subordinate
> > clause?
> > With all due respect, you may disagree with a.o. Alters and
> > ArtScroll's idea about Gen1, but if you want to disqualify it, first
> > try to take a look at word order, tense and mode use, in short,
> > syntax.
> > For example, I hope you realise that at least verse 2 is not a short
> > main clause: this is impossible, because of word order: והארץ
> > (subject) is put first, but BH is VSO. We therefore have to do with a
> > circumstantial clause. Here WE(ha-aretz) has nothing do with one event
> > following up on another event.
> > The word we/wa doesn't work like English "and" at all.
> > Yours,
> > Herman
>
> --
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