[B-Greek] LOGIZOMAI as a process (BDAG2)
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Fri Jan 16 12:37:15 EST 2009
On Jan 16, 2009, at 11:42 AM, Kimmo Huovila wrote:
> Thank you for your comments. I agree that I had not given good
> labels or
> glosses for all the passages. "Taking into account" is a good gloss
> for some
> examples, as you suggest. That is BDAG 1a. This gives some
> confirmation to my
> suspicion that BDAG category 2 is not quite well written.
Compiling the data into an adequate lexical entry is not really very
easy. I might do things differently, but I'd have to spend a lot of
time thinking through the evidence before proposing any major re-
ordering of things.
λογίζομαι (λόγος) impf. ἐλογιζόμην; fut.
λογιοῦμαι LXX; 1 aor. ἐλογισάμην; pf.
λελόγιμαι LXX. Pass.: 1 aor. ἐλογίσθην; 1 fut.
λογισθήσομαι. Mid. dep. (B-D-F §311; Rob. 816; 819)
(Soph., Hdt.+) prim. a mathematical and accounting term, then of
cognitive processes. In our lit. esp. used by Paul.; s. GThomas, ET
17, 1906, 211ff.
1. to determine by mathematical process, reckon, calculate, freq. in
a transf. sense
a. count, take into account τὶ someth.
b. as a result of a calculation evaluate, estimate, look upon as,
2. to give careful thought to a matter, think (about), consider,
ponder, let one’s mind dwell on τὶ someth.
3. to hold a view about someth., think, believe, be of the opinion
I am inclined to think that I might prefer to see all of these as
subcategories of the single sense "calculate, reckon, submit to a
reasoning process" I think that some of those passages that Danker has
in category 2 I would put in 1 a and some others of them into 1 b. I
think that I might make category 3 a new 1 c "reckon" in the sense of
the colloquial English usage, i.e. "I rather think" (that something is
the case) or "I'm thinking that ... " -- not so much in the sense that
one's mind is made up, but rather that "This is how I add up the
likelihoods right now." This new 1 c might then conceivably be
subdivided into "I conclude that ... " or "I have decided to ... " and
"My considered opinion on this -- for now -- is ... "
The problem is closely involved with how the human mind works, much
more haphazardly than we sometimes represent it. In that regard,
there's a very interesting column in today's NYTimes by David Brooks;
he's talking about economic thinking, but what he has to say applies
to the way we think about far more than economic problems: "An Economy
of Faith and Trust" (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/16/opinion/16brooks.html
> On perjantai 16 tammikuu 2009, Carl Conrad wrote:
>> Okay, let's look at these passages you've cited:
>>> 1 Macc 6:19 LXX KAI ELOGISATO IOUDAS EXARAI AUTOUS KAI EXEKKLHSIASE
>>> PANTA TON
>>> LAON TOU PERIKAQISAI EP AUTOUS.
>>> - Result of thinking. Judas was not thinking of whether to destroy
>>> them, but
>>> he purposed to do so and called the people to besiege them for that
>> = "he decided"
>>> Ps 51:4 LXX ADIKIAN ELOGISATO hH GLWSSA SOU
>>> - The tongue was not just contemplating injustice, but had deviced
> Yes, my typo.
>> ELOGISATO here appears to be a literal "interlinear"
>> equivalent to the Hebrew verb, "tachshov" which appears to be
>> imperfect; if the LXX translator was reading "tachshov" the aorist
>> Greek ELOGISATO would seem questionable. In any case, the passage is
>> problematic since it's clearly imagistic: the tongue does not
>> calculate or reason.
> As it is the tongue, I would assume that it is expressing ADIKIA
> that it (or
> the person having the tongue) has devised.
Yes, I would think so.
>>> Luke 24:1 D: THi DE MIAi TWN SABBATWN ORQROU BAQEWS EPI TO MNHMA
>>> FEROUSAI hA hTOIMASAN KAI TINES SUN AUTAIS ELOGIZONTO EN hEAUTAIS:
>>> TIS ARA
>>> APOKULISEI TON LIQON.
>>> - This is one of the closest ones to the idea of meditation. This is
>>> attempt to figure out, not an attempt to meditate on a theme.
>> Doesn't this really mean, "were wondering" -- "were asking the
>> question"? After all it is followed by the direct question, TIS ARA
>> APOKULISEI TON LIQON/
> If so, this would be the lone (?) example of LOGIZOMAI meaning
> thinking of a
> question as such? Or were they trying to find an answer to the
> practical need
> they were about to face?
Well, one might ask whether LOGIZOMAI here isn't equivalent to the
more common DIALOGIZOMAI of internal/mental ratiocination/dialogue-
with-self, e.g. Mark 2:6 DIALOGIZOMENOI EN TAIS KARDIAIS AUTWN ...
Thinking, reasoning is so much a matter of weighing preponderances of
alternative "considerations" -- it's an internal "dialogue."
>>> John 11:50 OUDE LOGIZESQE hOTI SUMFEREI hUMIN hINA EIS ANQRWPOS
>>> APOQANHi hUPER
>>> TOU LAOU KAI MH hOLON TO EQNOS APOLHTAI.
>>> - Result of thinking clearly referred to.
>> How can that be so. Seems to me, "You are not considering ... " or
>> "You aren't taking into account ... " I don't see how you can say
>> is a "result of thinking"; Caiaphas is criticizing the others for
>> faulty thinking precisely because they are not reckoning in the
>> proposition he cites.
> You are right. "You aren't taking into account" sounds pretty good
> to me.
>>> 1 Cor 13:11 hOTE HMHN NHPIOS, ELALOUN hWS NHPIOS, EFRONOUN hWS
>>> ELOGIZOMHN hWS NHPIOS.
>>> - I made childish conclusions, not necessarily that the thinking
>>> process was
>> I can't see this; I don't think it means "I made childish
>> conclusions" (ELOGISAMHN) but rather "I reasoned the way a child
>> reasons" -- perhaps "jumping to conclusions" without reckoning in all
>> that's relevant.
> Very possible. This one is a little bit hard to say for sure, but I
> tried to
> show that it is not necessary to consider that this refers to the
> process as such.
Well, for my part, I think it very much does refer to the thought
process of a child.
>>> 2 Cor 10:2a DEOMAI DE TO MH PARWN QARRHSAI THi PEPOIQHSEI hHi
>>> TOLMHSAI (EPI TINAS TOUS LOGIZOMENOUS hHMAS hWS KATA SARKA
>>> - Result of thinking
>> I don't think so; I think LOGIZOMAI and LOGIZOMENOUS here must both
>> point rather to considering a course of action, not to a decision to
>> act thus.
> I would think that the object of LOGIZOMAI is TOLMHSAI. He concluded
> that it
> this case dares to act with confidence (THi PEPOIQHSEI). The result
> is "TOLMW EN TINI PEPOIQHSEI". No?
> LOGIZOMENOUS was not under my consideration, as BDAG referred only
> to the
> LOGIZOMAI in this verse (a somewhat artificial way to limit the
> corpus to
> make the study a little bit faster).
Well, I rather think that there's some deliberate intent to use the
verb in a similar manner in both places in this text: if I had to
English it, I think I'd probably use "reckon" in both places, in my
category 1 c as suggested above, perhaps "count on doing, count on x
>>> 2 Cor 10:7 TA KATA PROSWPON BLEPETE. EI TIS PEPOIQEN hEAUTWi XRISTOU
>>> TOUTO LOGIZESQW PALIN EF' hEAUTOU, hOTI KAQWS AUTOS XRISTOU, hOUTWS
>>> - Result of thinking, let him be of this opinion.
>> I don't think it's "Let him be of this opinion," but rather, "Let him
>> take this into consideration" -- "He should think again, should take
>> this once more under review with regard to himself ... "
>>> 2 Cor 10:11 TOUTO LOGIZESQW hO TOIOUTOS hOTI hOIOI ESMEN TWi LOGWi
>>> EPISTOLWN APONTES, TOIOUTOI KAI PARONTES TWi ERGWi.
>>> - Result of thinking, let him be of this opinion.
>> Again, I think the pressent imperative here means rather, "He should
>> take this into consideration" -- NOT "He should reach this
>>> Phil 4:8 TO LOIPON, ADELFOI, hOSA ESTIN ALHQH, hOSA SEMNA, hOSA
>>> DIKAIA, hOSA
>>> hAGNA, hOSA PROSFILH, hOSA EUFHMA, EI TIS ARETH KAI EI TIS EPAINOS,
>>> - Take these things into account?
>> Yes indeed: take them into account; make them the premises of your
>> calculations and proceed to work out your course of action in
>> accordance with them (cf. Phil 2:12 META FOBOU KAI TROMOU THN hEAUTWN
>> SWTHRIAN KATERGAZESQE.
> OK. This cannot mean "let your mind dwell on these things" (NASB),
> about such things" (NIV), "think on these things" (KJV) instead of
> "take them
> into account"? The point of my small study is actually to get an
> answer to
> this question.
Yes, I agree with you. Or, as I suggested above, I think TAUTA
LOGIZESQE here means "Make these things the major premises of your
>>> Hebr 11:19 LOGISAMENOS hOTI KAI EK NEKRWN EGEIREIN DUNATOS hO QEOS,
>>> AUTON KAI EN PARABOLHi EKOMISATO.
>>> - Result of thinking
>> The reference here is to what Abraham did by faith (offering up
>> Isaac); 11:19 indicates the proposition that Abraham took into
>> when he proceeded to offer up Isaac. The aorist tense is significant
> Kimmo Huovila
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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