[B-Greek] John 3:16 "so"
davidmckay52 at gmail.com
Tue Dec 15 20:14:05 EST 2009
Lots of big words here, Steve.
Could you tell us how you think it should be translated, following on from
your analysis and conclusions, please?
2009/12/16 Steve Runge <srunge at logos.com>
> I would suggest breaking the problem down into smaller components. The
> first controversy regards which way hOUTWS refers, whether it is anaphoric
> or cataphoric. The answer to this question will influence the sense you
> assign it, typically either manner or degree. In reading the literature on
> this issue, cases are made for both backward- and forward-pointing
> reference. If it is backward, the antecedent would be the lifting up of the
> Son of Man as the demonstration of God's love. The forward-pointing
> alternative would view the hWSTE clause as the referent.
> I played and replayed the scenarios. Forward-pointing hOUTWS references are
> typically resolved in:
> 1. a quotation (e.g. Mt 2:5 referring to v. 6, or Mt. 6:9);
> 2. a subordinate clause introduced by hOTI (e.g. Mk 4:26, Lk
> 19:31), hWS (e.g. 1 Cor 4:1; 9:26; Jas 2:12), hINA (e.g. Mt 18:14);
> 3. an infinitive (e.g. Lk 1:25).
> I have not found another instance where a cataphoric hOUTWS reference is
> resolved by hWSTE. It might could happen, but John 3:16 would be the lone
> token in the GNT.
> According to my analysis in the Discourse GNT, John 21:21 is the only
> forward-pointing hOUTWS reference in the gospel other than the potential one
> in 3:16. There it is simply a general reference to the events that follow
> where Jesus reveals himself to the disciples after the resurrection. On the
> basis of the broader usage and that within John's gospel, I view the
> forward-pointing reading of hOUTWS in 3:16 as the harder and less likely
> The second part regards the sense of hOUTWS. I understand hOUTWS to be a
> "pro-adverb" (sorry Carl, know you hate the terms). It is an adverb in that
> it modifies a verb, and it is a pro-form in that it can stand in the place
> of a concept like a pronoun. In 3:16, you need to choose your concept that
> it stands in place of, which in both cases would be a manner, not a degree.
> Thus I do not think that there is merit to the degree reading, the only
> sound option is manner. There is nothing in the preceding or following
> context describing a degree, only two manners: lifting up the Son of Man,
> and giving his only son.
> This is my two cents, though I am sure there will be other opinions.
> Steven E. Runge
> Logos Bible Software
> srunge at logos.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:
> b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Harold Holmyard
> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 2:54 PM
> To: B-Greek
> Subject: [B-Greek] John 3:16 "so"
> Dear list,
> I have been studying a controversy in John 3:16:
> John 3:16* οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν
> μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ᾽ ἔχῃ ζωὴν
> hOUTWS GAP HGAPHSEN hO QEOS TON KOSMON, hWSTE TON hUION TON MONOGENH
> EDWKEN, hINA PAS hO PISTEUWN EIS AUTON MH APOLHTAI ALL' ECHi ZWHN AIWNION.
> The controversy concerns the force of hOUTWS and then hWSTE. The lexicons
> present, though not necessarily for this verse, the claim that the words
> together can imply an intensive idea where hOUTWS is "so" ("so
> much") and hWSTE is "that." The use of "so" and "that" is, of course, the
> traditional rendering of the verse. Some recent commentaries, papers, and
> translations are saying that hOUTWS should be translated "in this way," with
> hWSTE possibly rendered as "and so."
> This particular construction does not appear elsewhere in the Greek NT from
> what I have read, or really in the LXX either. So recourse is made to
> writers like Josephus, Philo, Demosthenes, and Epictetus to clarify the
> usage. The Loeb Classical Library often translates the construction with an
> intensive sense, but a paper I just read differed with LCL, claiming that in
> each case hOUTWS looked back to a previous context and had the meaning "in
> this way," rather than being an intensive "so."
> Is anyone familiar with this issue sufficiently to have an opinion about
> By the way, please tell me if the Greek text is legible as Greek. I
> exported John 3:16 from Bibleworks to Word and transferred it from Word to
> the emailer Thunderbird. It still looks Greek to me but perhaps not to
> Thank you.
> Harold Holmyard
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