[B-Greek] Aorist Future - Jn 13:31-32
iver_larsen at sil.org
Mon Oct 6 01:56:14 EDT 2008
----- Original Message -----
From: "Elizabeth Kline" <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>
To: "BG" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: 5. oktober 2008 21:40
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Aorist Future - Jn 13:31-32
> Thank you for the long post. On DOXAZW Danker's 3rd ed. still lists
> all of the John citations under definition #2 which has been reworded.
>>>> JOHN 13:31 hOTE OUN EXHLQEN, LEGEI IHSOUS: NUN EDOXASQH hO hUIOS TOU
>>>> ANQRWPOU KAI hO QEOS EDOXASQH EN AUTWi: 32 EI hO QEOS EDOXASQH EN
>>>> AUTWi, KAI hO QEOS DOXASEI AUTON EN AUTWi, KAI EUQUS DOXASEI AUTON.
> G.B.Caird, who forty years ago published an often cited study on this
> topic , in a later work "The Language and Imagery of the Bible"
> 1980, pp. 29-30, has this to say about DOXAZW in Jn13:31-32 "It will
> be obvious that, in this five fold repetition of a single verb, that
> the first instance cannot be equal in all respects to the second and
> third. The first is a true passive: the Son of man is to be glorified
> by God in the bestowal of a new access of glory which he is to share
> with those who will be united with him through his death (cf. 12:32,
I suppose my major disagreement with Caird here is the reference for DOXAZW. I see this
glorification of Father and Son as an extended event with many steps, starting from before the world
was created and continuing past the end of this world.
I therefore don't think that the crucial point is to decide whether the word refers to the past or
future, since it can refer to part of the process as having taken place, and another part not yet
having taken place.
I am not an expert in Greek grammar, but it is my understanding that the indicative aorist at the
same time may contain elements of (past) tense and (completive/perfective) aspect. Usually past
tense and perfective aspect coincide, but not always. For instance, when Judas EXHLQEN, it is both
past tense and completed aspect.
If the two don't go together, which of these two is in focus depends on the word used and the
context, I guess. Outside of the indicative, the tense element is out of focus, leaving the aspect
Here, I understand the NUN together with aorist to suggest that something has just happened that has
brought glory/honour to the Son of Man, because Jesus has so far implemented the plan of salvation,
and that gives him honour. (Even if the disciples did not understand it at the time.) When Jesus
chose Judas as a disciple, knowing that he was going to betray him, that also brought him
glory/honour. However, the action of Judas here also puts the actors in place for the more
spectacular fulfilment through Gethsemane and through his death and resurrection, and this is
alluded to in the future verbs in the next verse. The glorification as a unified whole is at this
moment both past, present and future, since it is a process that extends before and after the
Thanks for the opportunity to look more into this important word and concept.
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