[B-Greek] Aorist Future - Jn 13:31-32
kline_dekooning at earthlink.net
Thu Oct 2 16:02:25 EDT 2008
I made a few errors here. Alford doesn't call this a prophetic aorist,
rather a proleptic aorist which puts him in agreement with Wallace p.
563-4 and Richard Young p. 125-6. ATR 842-842 cites NUN EDOXASQH as
an example of an aorist for something that has just happened. However,
ATR p847 "In John 13:31 EDOXASQH (twice) is explained (verse 32) by
DOXASEI KAI EUQUS DOXASEI." L.Morris (Jn NICNT 1971. p.631 n.61) "The
aorist EDOXASQH contemplates the glorification as a complete whole."
G.Beasley-Murray (WBC Jn 1999, p.246) suggests that NUN EDOXASQH ...
EUQUS DOXASEI identify the boundaries of a single entity, not two
separate glorifications (Meyer & Alford disagree).
So we might say that NUN EDOXASQH is a figurative way of speaking
which contemplates (frames) an event as complete. Whereas, in the time
frame of the narrative, this event is just beginning or about to begin
and completion is still future. It seems to me that reading NUN
EDOXASQH as any sort of past tense (proleptic, just now past, or long
time past) just creates unnecessary confusion. The difference between
this and the proleptic idea is the absence of the temporal semantic
The referent "glorification" may be future at the time of speaking
within the narrative but that doesn't indicate that aorist aspect has
a temporal semantic component.
On Oct 1, 2008, at 4:37 PM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:
> Over the last week or so I have been looking at "futuristic aorists",
> including the treatment in all the standard grammars and the notes in
> commentaries on the texts cited in the grammars. To narrow the focus I
> decided to eliminate some catagories of examples including aorists
> used in the apodosis of a conditional statement and so called
> prophectic aorists. Jn 13:31-32 is one of the remaining examples
> after the elimination [note that Alford calls this a prophectic
> JOHN 13:31 hOTE OUN EXHLQEN, LEGEI IHSOUS: NUN EDOXASQH hO hUIOS TOU
> ANQRWPOU KAI hO QEOS EDOXASQH EN AUTWi: 32 EI hO QEOS EDOXASQH EN
> AUTWi, KAI hO QEOS DOXASEI AUTON EN AUTWi, KAI EUQUS DOXASEI AUTON.
> More popular than Alford's prophectic aorist was the notion that
> EDOXASQH refers to the immediate past, something that just happend. I
> don't how this can work since the semantic feature 'end
> point' (R.Buth) is lacking. Others suggested that the EDOXASQH refers
> to either the present or the future from a perspective in the future
> as if it were already accompished. This may be just another way of
> stating Alford's position. After sifting through all the "futuristic
> aorists" I was able to locate this one seems to be the most
> interesting example since both aorist and futures of the same verb are
> used in the immediate context. I am not sure what to make of NUN
> EDOXASQH ... hO QEOS EDOXASQH EN AUTWi, is this a genuine aorist with
> future reference? R.Buth will say no :-). Any other opinons?
> G.B. Caird wrote a relevant article or two which I don't have on hand:
> CAIRD, G.B.
> 1968a The Glory of God in the Fourth Gospel: An Exercise in Biblical
> Semantics , in NTS 15 (1968-69) 265-277.
> 1968b Towards a Lexicon of the Septuagint. I , in JTS 19 (1968)
> 453-475; = R.A. KRAFT (ed.) 1972, pp. 110-132.
> 1969 Towards a Lexicon of the Septuagint. II , in JTS 20 (1969)
> 21-40; = R.A. KRAFT (ed.) 1972, pp. 133-152.
> Carson (John, Pillar) cites Caird as claiming that passive aorist
> EDOXASQH was the 'expected' manner of rendering NKBD (KBD niphil). I
> did a little research on this found very few places (4? cited below)
> in the LXX where the niphil of KBD was rendered with a passive of
> DOXAZW or ENDOXAZOMAI. I am not certain my search methods were solid
> and would welcome being corrected on this. Someone who has Caird's
> articles might want to comment on his argument.
> 2SAM. 6:22 KAI APOKALUFQHSOMAI ETI hOUTWS KAI ESOMAI ACREIOS EN
> OFQALMOIS SOU KAI META TWN PAIDISKWN hWN EIPAS ME DOXASQHNAI
> 2KINGS 14:10 TUPTWN EPATAXAS THN IDOUMAIAN KAI EPHREN SE hH KARDIA SOU
> ENDOXASQHTI KAQHMENOS EN TWi OIKWi SOU KAI hINA TI ERIZEIS EN KAKIAi
> SOU KAI PESHi SU KAI IOUDAS META SOU
> IS. 43:4 AF hOU ENTIMOS EGENOU ENANTION MOU EDOXASQHS KAGW SE HGAPHSA
> KAI DWSW ANQRWPOUS POLLOUS hUPER SOU KAI ARCONTAS hUPER THS KEFALHS
> EZEK. 39:13 KAI KATORUXOUSIN AUTOUS PAS hO LAOS THS GHS KAI ESTAI
> AUTOIS EIS ONOMASTON hHi hHMERAi EDOXASQHN LEGEI KURIOS
> Elizabeth Kline
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