[B-Greek] Special use of the dative James 4:17
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Thu Nov 20 15:27:07 EST 2008
On Nov 20, 2008, at 2:38 PM, Vasile STANCU wrote:
> It seems to me it is time to devise a new definition: what about
> "dative of assignment" or "dative of labelling"? Compare with
> expressions like these: ATIMIA AUTWi ESTIN (1Co 11:14), or AISXRON
> GAR ESTIN GUNAIKI (1Co 14:35).
> One might think I am joking - which is partially true - but what I'd
> like to point out is that, instead of debating whether a dative of
> possession is used or one of respect or advantage/disadvantage etc.,
> - which will ultimately lead to forging such definitions as,
> perhaps, "dative of believing" when we explain PISTEUW SOI or
> "dative of accompaniment" for AKOLUQETW MOI or "genitive of
> listening" for AKOUONTES AUTOU - we should better use the simple
> term "Dative" and then explain the given situation in more than one
> or two words. Such method would help keeping one somewhat more
> flexible when judging things like this and other things in general.
Well, I would agree that the datives in the passages cited above, 1
Cor 11:14, 1 Cor 14:35 and in our passge James 4:17 are all "true"
datives -- not locative or instrumental constructions, and I'd be
content to leave it at that. I said "dative of possession" because
that's a standard category in older grammars. I do think, however,
that the dative AUTWi in James 4:17 is part of the predicate and
construes with ESTIN/
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> ] On Behalf Of Carl Conrad
> Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 2:04 AM
> To: Webb Mealy
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Special use of the dative James 4:17
> On Nov 20, 2008, at 11:03 AM, Webb Mealy wrote:
>> I'd call it a dative of respect or relation, and English it as "it's
>> sin for
>> him", making hAMARTIA a predicate nom. It's sin in his regard, or
>> it's sin
>> in relation to him. James's assumption is that the thing not done is
>> not sin
>> in relation to the person who *does not* know the good thing that
>> should be
>> done and fails to do it. In relation to that person the "not doing"
>> is not
> If hAMARTIA is a predicate noun, then what (on earth) is the subject
> of ESTIN? It cannot be KALON POIEIN because that is complementary to
> EIDOTI? The "It" in your English version is an expletive that doesn't
> represent anything in the Greek.
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
>> [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Carl Conrad
>> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 6:10 AM
>> To: Mark Cain
>> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Special use of the dative James 4:17
>> On Nov 20, 2008, at 8:02 AM, Mark Cain wrote:
>>> Dative of disadvantage?
>>> EIDOTI OUN KALON POIEIN KAI MH POIOUNTI hAMARTIA AUTW ESTIN James
>>> I was discussing this passage with a friend the other day and his
>>> take on this passage is that "hAMARTIA AUTW ESTIN" uses not a true
>>> dative in the sense of the indirect object, but a dative of
>>> advantage - disadvantage. I wasn't sure and had to do some research
>>> -- but it seems that the dative of dis/advantage occurs mostly
>>> around verbs of buying, selling, depriving and motion.
>>> What do you think? Is this a special use of the dative, or is it
>>> simple the indirect object? Is there a general grammatical rule for
>>> the use of EIMI + dative?
>> I think I'd call it a dative of possession (and I'd call that a true
>> dative rather than a locative or instrumental dative): "A sin is his
>> (belongs/accrues to him) who knows how to do good and doesn't do it."
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