[B-Greek] [SUSPECTED JUNK EMAIL] Re: LXX Genesis 1:2 - tohu as AORATOS

Jerry Reimer Jerry at lsm.org
Wed May 28 18:24:43 EDT 2008


As to the AORATOS line, from what Dr. Pietersma has said, something important for translators has emerged. It is that (in essence, if I understand his comments) a translator should not try to second guess the LXX translator by going underneath to the Hebrew text and then translating into some target language from Hebrew instead of Greek (if translating from Greek is what he says he is doing). In short, you translate from the source language you have and not from the remote source language (Hebrew) of the immediate source language (Greek). If one would do this kind of second-guess translation work, he would, of course, not actually be translating from the LXX at all.

I see that NETS has "invisible" for AORATOS which seems to indicate that the translator of Genesis LXX has done just that, namely, he has rendered the usual meaning of the Greek adjective.

Maybe everyone else in the world already knew this a long time ago, but it was very helpful to me to see this discussion on this list.

Jerry Reimer
-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of George F Somsel
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 4:52 PM
To: Albert Pietersma
Cc: Eric S. Weiss; b-greek
Subject: [SUSPECTED JUNK EMAIL] Re: [B-Greek] LXX Genesis 1:2 - tohu as AORATOS

While it is possible that the use noted in LSJ is used in a cosmogonic context, the snippet given doesn't necessarily indicate such.  Had that been the case, I'm certain Prof H. Evan Runner whom I had for Greek Philosophy would have been severly disappointed that I should be unaware of such.  The "al." in LSJ can indicate that it is another work of the same author.  Unfortunately, I haven't the time at this moment to do any extensive search for it.  In other words, you may be correct, but I cannot confirm that.

 george
gfsomsel


search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.


- Jan Hus
_________



----- Original Message ----
From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
Cc: Eric S. Weiss <papaweiss1 at yahoo.com>; b-greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 3:02:56 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] LXX Genesis 1:2 - tohu as AORATOS

Reference in Plato is specific to the Timaeus because of the use of
AORATOS in cosmogony.
Al

On May 28, 2008, at 2:18 PM, George F Somsel wrote:

> 2 ? d? ?? ?? ???at?? ?a?
> ??atas?e?ast??, ?a? s??t?? ?p???
> t?? ??ss??, ?a? p?e?a ?e??
> ?pef??et? ?p??? t?? ?dat??.
> 2 hH DE GH HN AORATOS KAI AKATASKEUASTOS, KAI SKOTOS EPANW THS
> ABUSSOU, KAI PNEUMA QEOU EPEFERETO EPANW TOU hUDATOS
> Not to disagree with Albert, but rather more to possibly add to
> what he has stated.  LSJ notes
> Pl.Sph.246a, cf. Tht.155e, al.: t?? ?. ?t?ap?t??
> ??t?? [TAN A. ATRAPITON BIOTOU] obscure, Epigr.Gr.223
> Liddell, H. G., Scott, R., Jones, H. S., & McKenzie, R. (1996). A
> Greek-English lexicon. "With a revised supplement, 1996." (Rev. and
> augm. throughout) (173). Oxford; New York: Clarendon Press; Oxford
> University Press.
>
> If I am reading this correctly (and I haven't yet checked on it),
> Plato in the Theatetus uses ???at?? [AORATOS] in the sense
> of "obscure." Considering the subsequent statement ?a?
> s??t?? ?p??? t?? ??ss?? [KAI SKOTOS EPANW
> THS ABUSSOU], this would seem to be a possible understanding of its
> use here.george
> gfsomsel
>
>
> search for truth, hear truth,
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> defend the truth till death.
>
>
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Eric S. Weiss <papaweiss1 at yahoo.com>
> To: b-greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 11:06:07 AM
> Subject: [B-Greek] LXX Genesis 1:2 - tohu as AORATOS
>
> The LXX in Genesis 1:2 translates the Hebrew tohu wa-bohu as
> AORATOS KAI
> AKATASKEUASTOS. I.e., the earth was "invisible." Is that perhaps
> the basis for Hebrews
> 11:3 saying: PISTEI NOOUMEN KATHRTISQAI TOUS AIWNAS hRHMATI QEOU,
> EIS TO
> MH EK FAINOMENWN TO BLEPOMENON GEGONENAI?
>
> And ... is AORATOS a proper translation of tohu? The other two
> occurrences in the Hebrew
> Bible of tohu with bohu are not translated similarly in the LXX.
> E.g., Jeremiah 4:23 simply
> subsumes both words under the single Greek word OUQEN, and Isaiah
> 34:11 translates
> tohu as ERHMOS, and the Hebrew bohu phrase is totally different
> in the Greek.
>
>
>
>
> Eric S. Weiss
>
>
>
> ---
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Albert Pietersma PhD
21 Cross Street,
Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm



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