[B-Greek] Martyrdom of Polycarp 9:1

Bert de Haan dehaanaf at gmail.com
Mon Dec 29 19:36:35 EST 2008


 I have received some very helpful replies.  I do have a few follow-up
questions. (I considered changing the subject but there is enough of a
connection so I left it.)
1.  Mark Lightman wrote "A genitive absolute is itself a type of
genitive of time (within the time x was happening, y happened)
but maybe the dative of time tries to pin point the time to a more
definite point."  My question: A genitive absolute doesn't have to a
genitive of time does it? Two examples from "Martyrdom":
8.1: ....THS hWRAS ELQOUSHS TOU ECIENAI, ONWi KAQISANTES AUTON HGAGON
EIS THN POLIN. ....because the time had come to leave, they seated him
on a donkey and brought him into the city.  (It is possible to read;
after the time had come... but in the context it doesn't make as much
sense. I think it was AFTER he has finished praying and BECAUSE it was
time.)
17.2: KAI TAUTA EIPON hUPOBALLONTWN KAI ENISXUONTWN TWN
IOUDAIWN,...And these things they said because the instigation and
inciting of the Jews...

2. George Somsel wrote: "Note that the dative is used for a POINT of time."
For Martyrdom 9:1 one of my proposed translation was "And when/while
Polycarp entered the stadium there..."   If we consider this a dative
of time, -when- would then be possible but not -while-, correct?

3.  I tried looking at quite a number of posts from the archives but
several only showed the subject but no message,
 (like this one.
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/test-archives/html4/2001-05/5404.html)
I did gatherhowever that most of the constructions that sometimes are
called "dative absolute" are not really absolute because there is a
grammatical relationship with the main sentence.
 Matthew 8:1 reads: Καταβάντος δὲ αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ τοῦ ὄρους ἠκολούθησαν αὐτῷ
ὄχλοι πολλοί. KATABANTOS DE AUTOU APO TOU OROUS HKOLOUQHSAN AUTWi
OXLOI POLLOI.  The fist part is considered a genitive absolute (by
some/all?) but AUTOU has the same antecedent as AUTWi. Would that make
it not an absolute?
I am comparing this what Carl Conrad wrote about - X.A.6.3.10.
XENOFWNTI POREUOMENWi hOI hIPPEIS ENTUGCANOUSI
>PRESBUTAIS :
He wrote: "This example is certainly more like the passage cited from
Polycarp. But
there is something of the dative of interest here: "As Xenophon traveled,
his horsemen encounter elderly men." In my version here "his" conveys
what I think is the sense of the dative: Xenophon is the person to whom
this event if of concern/interest. For my part, I really don't think this is the
same as an absolute construction su;ch as we have with a genitive
participle-substantive phrase that has no direct syntactic linkage to the
main clause."
I understand the point that there is interest or concern, so the
dative makes sense. I also see how this can apply to Martyrdom 9:1.  I
can't see the difference between the syntactic linkage here that makes
it not a absolute construction and the lack of syntactic linkage in
Matthew 8:1 to make it an absolute construction.


Thank you.
Bert de Haan


More information about the B-Greek mailing list