[B-Greek] Verbal Genitive 1 Peter 1:2

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Fri Dec 5 05:36:56 EST 2008


On Dec 5, 2008, at 3:36 AM, Norman Wood wrote:

> Thank you all for those, which I will take away and think  
> about.First of all let me apologise for the way I started this  
> string, whether Michaels had it right or not I don't think I should  
> have written it that way I apologise to the list.
> Second my second point related to the tense of the verb implied in  
> the verbal noun. Carl you have given me the suggestion for, I think,  
> a present infinitive could this have been an aorist infinitive so  
> not indicating a process but simply undefined in terms of the  
> aspect.If you think so what guidelines other than experience of the  
> language are there, if any, for making the decision.

You should not carry that comparison with an articular present  
infinitive TO hAGIAZEIN too far -- one  might just as well use an  
articular aorist infinitive TO hAGIASAI. In fact the verbal noun  
doesn't not have any indicator of tense.

Carl Conrad

> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu 
> >
> To: "Norman Wood" <nandk.wood at blueyonder.co.uk>
> Cc: "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>; <b- 
> greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 12:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Verbal Genitive 1 Peter 1:2
>
>
>
> On Dec 4, 2008, at 6:46 PM, Norman Wood wrote:
>
>> Hi George and Carl,
>> can I run this past you then to see if I have really understood   
>> this. The two ideas that might be present are
>> 1. the chosen whom the Spirit consecrates to obedience
>> (subjective genitive)
>> 2.those chosen by consecrating their spirit to obedience
>> (objective genitive)
>
> That still seems more complicated than it ought to be:
> ἐν ἁγιασμῷ πνεύματος [EN hAGIASMWi PNEUMATOS}
> (a) subjective genitive: "by means of the Spirit's sanctifying (of
> you, the addressees)" -- In this instance hAGIASMOS is a verbal noun
> standing, let us say, for an infinitive such as TO hAGIAZEIN in which
> case PNEUMA as God's Spirit would be the subject of the infinitive
> (b) objective genitive: "by means of the sanctifying of (your) spirit"
> -- In this instance hAGIASMOS is a verbal noun standing for an
> infinitive such as TO hAGIAZEIN with PNEUMA being the object of the
> infinitive "to sanctify spirit" -- "spirit" in that case would have to
> be the believer's spirit, not God's Spirit.
>
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: George F Somsel
>> To: Norman Wood ; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:59 AM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Verbal Genitive 1 Peter 1:2
>>
>>
>> EN hAGIASMWi is a preposition with (or which takes) a dative.   
>> When  I see EN + dative one of the things I consider is instrument  
>> or  means.  We tend to see PNEUMA in the NT and immediately think  
>> "Holy  Spirit" though this may not always be the case.  The  
>> genitive is  just a genitive.  It is we who distinguish various  
>> flavors (probably  "flavours" to you).  The context must be  
>> considered.  For example,  in Rom 8.16 Paul speaks of the Spirit  
>> bearing witness with our  spirit.  Obviously, the second "spirit"  
>> does not reference the Holy  Spirit.  I would therefore be aware of  
>> the context before deciding  which is the usage.  It could be  
>> consecration by the Spirit or it  could be consecration of the  
>> [our] spirit.  HINT:  Would it be  consecration by one's own  
>> spirit?  Remember that the prepositional phrase most likely  
>> signifies means or instrument.
>>
>> Now, regarding tense.  hAGIASMWi isn't even a participle.  It is a   
>> noun -- hAGIASMOS, -OU, hO.  It therefore has no tense.
>>
>> george
>> gfsomsel
>>
>>
>>
>> … search for truth, hear truth,
>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>> defend the truth till death.
>>
>>
>>
>> - Jan Hus
>> _________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> From: Norman Wood <nandk.wood at blueyonder.co.uk>
>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 6:21:40 AM
>> Subject: [B-Greek] Verbal Genitive 1 Peter 1:2
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> In 1 Peter 1:2 the phrase EN hAGIASMWi PVEUMATOS is described by J.  
>> Ramsey Michaels as a subjective genitive (WBC pg 11). However he   
>> renders it 'consecrated by the Spirit'. This makes ' by the  
>> Spirit'  an adverbial phrase and the Spirit is then not the subject  
>> of the  verb consecrate. Am I right in thinking that 'what the  
>> spirit  consecrates' is how a subjective genitive in this case  
>> might be  rendered?
>>
>> Also how does one determine the tense of the verb in a verbal   
>> genitive? In the rendering 'consecrated by the Spirit' hAGIAZW has   
>> been rendered as a past tense, however the examples in Wallace  
>> GGBB  pg 114 translate as both past and present . Are there any  
>> guidelines  for this?
>>
>> Best Wishes
>>
>> Norman Wood
>>
>> Scotland
>> ---
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>>
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>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)
>
>



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