[B-Greek] Verbal Genitive 1 Peter 1:2
Carl W. Conrad
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Fri Dec 5 05:36:56 EST 2008
On Dec 5, 2008, at 3:36 AM, Norman Wood wrote:
> Thank you all for those, which I will take away and think
> about.First of all let me apologise for the way I started this
> string, whether Michaels had it right or not I don't think I should
> have written it that way I apologise to the list.
> Second my second point related to the tense of the verb implied in
> the verbal noun. Carl you have given me the suggestion for, I think,
> a present infinitive could this have been an aorist infinitive so
> not indicating a process but simply undefined in terms of the
> aspect.If you think so what guidelines other than experience of the
> language are there, if any, for making the decision.
You should not carry that comparison with an articular present
infinitive TO hAGIAZEIN too far -- one might just as well use an
articular aorist infinitive TO hAGIASAI. In fact the verbal noun
doesn't not have any indicator of tense.
Carl Conrad
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
> >
> To: "Norman Wood" <nandk.wood at blueyonder.co.uk>
> Cc: "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>; <b-
> greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 12:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Verbal Genitive 1 Peter 1:2
>
>
>
> On Dec 4, 2008, at 6:46 PM, Norman Wood wrote:
>
>> Hi George and Carl,
>> can I run this past you then to see if I have really understood
>> this. The two ideas that might be present are
>> 1. the chosen whom the Spirit consecrates to obedience
>> (subjective genitive)
>> 2.those chosen by consecrating their spirit to obedience
>> (objective genitive)
>
> That still seems more complicated than it ought to be:
> ἐν ἁγιασμῷ πνεύματος [EN hAGIASMWi PNEUMATOS}
> (a) subjective genitive: "by means of the Spirit's sanctifying (of
> you, the addressees)" -- In this instance hAGIASMOS is a verbal noun
> standing, let us say, for an infinitive such as TO hAGIAZEIN in which
> case PNEUMA as God's Spirit would be the subject of the infinitive
> (b) objective genitive: "by means of the sanctifying of (your) spirit"
> -- In this instance hAGIASMOS is a verbal noun standing for an
> infinitive such as TO hAGIAZEIN with PNEUMA being the object of the
> infinitive "to sanctify spirit" -- "spirit" in that case would have to
> be the believer's spirit, not God's Spirit.
>
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: George F Somsel
>> To: Norman Wood ; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:59 AM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Verbal Genitive 1 Peter 1:2
>>
>>
>> EN hAGIASMWi is a preposition with (or which takes) a dative.
>> When I see EN + dative one of the things I consider is instrument
>> or means. We tend to see PNEUMA in the NT and immediately think
>> "Holy Spirit" though this may not always be the case. The
>> genitive is just a genitive. It is we who distinguish various
>> flavors (probably "flavours" to you). The context must be
>> considered. For example, in Rom 8.16 Paul speaks of the Spirit
>> bearing witness with our spirit. Obviously, the second "spirit"
>> does not reference the Holy Spirit. I would therefore be aware of
>> the context before deciding which is the usage. It could be
>> consecration by the Spirit or it could be consecration of the
>> [our] spirit. HINT: Would it be consecration by one's own
>> spirit? Remember that the prepositional phrase most likely
>> signifies means or instrument.
>>
>> Now, regarding tense. hAGIASMWi isn't even a participle. It is a
>> noun -- hAGIASMOS, -OU, hO. It therefore has no tense.
>>
>> george
>> gfsomsel
>>
>>
>>
>> … search for truth, hear truth,
>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>> defend the truth till death.
>>
>>
>>
>> - Jan Hus
>> _________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> From: Norman Wood <nandk.wood at blueyonder.co.uk>
>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 6:21:40 AM
>> Subject: [B-Greek] Verbal Genitive 1 Peter 1:2
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> In 1 Peter 1:2 the phrase EN hAGIASMWi PVEUMATOS is described by J.
>> Ramsey Michaels as a subjective genitive (WBC pg 11). However he
>> renders it 'consecrated by the Spirit'. This makes ' by the
>> Spirit' an adverbial phrase and the Spirit is then not the subject
>> of the verb consecrate. Am I right in thinking that 'what the
>> spirit consecrates' is how a subjective genitive in this case
>> might be rendered?
>>
>> Also how does one determine the tense of the verb in a verbal
>> genitive? In the rendering 'consecrated by the Spirit' hAGIAZW has
>> been rendered as a past tense, however the examples in Wallace
>> GGBB pg 114 translate as both past and present . Are there any
>> guidelines for this?
>>
>> Best Wishes
>>
>> Norman Wood
>>
>> Scotland
>> ---
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>>
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>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)
>
>
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