[B-Greek] Verbal Genitive 1 Peter 1:2

Norman Wood nandk.wood at blueyonder.co.uk
Fri Dec 5 03:36:04 EST 2008


Thank you all for those, which I will take away and think about.First of all 
let me apologise for the way I started this string, whether Michaels had it 
right or not I don't think I should have written it that way I apologise to 
the list.
Second my second point related to the tense of the verb implied in the 
verbal noun. Carl you have given me the suggestion for, I think, a present 
infinitive could this have been an aorist infinitive so not indicating a 
process but simply undefined in terms of the aspect.If you think so what 
guidelines other than experience of the language are there, if any, for 
making the decision.

Best Wishes
Norman Wood
Scotland
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
To: "Norman Wood" <nandk.wood at blueyonder.co.uk>
Cc: "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>; <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 12:16 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Verbal Genitive 1 Peter 1:2



On Dec 4, 2008, at 6:46 PM, Norman Wood wrote:

> Hi George and Carl,
> can I run this past you then to see if I have really understood  this. The 
> two ideas that might be present are
> 1. the chosen whom the Spirit consecrates to obedience
> (subjective genitive)
> 2.those chosen by consecrating their spirit to obedience
> (objective genitive)

That still seems more complicated than it ought to be:
ἐν ἁγιασμῷ πνεύματος [EN hAGIASMWi PNEUMATOS}
(a) subjective genitive: "by means of the Spirit's sanctifying (of
you, the addressees)" -- In this instance hAGIASMOS is a verbal noun
standing, let us say, for an infinitive such as TO hAGIAZEIN in which
case PNEUMA as God's Spirit would be the subject of the infinitive
(b) objective genitive: "by means of the sanctifying of (your) spirit"
-- In this instance hAGIASMOS is a verbal noun standing for an
infinitive such as TO hAGIAZEIN with PNEUMA being the object of the
infinitive "to sanctify spirit" -- "spirit" in that case would have to
be the believer's spirit, not God's Spirit.


>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: George F Somsel
>  To: Norman Wood ; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>  Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:59 AM
>  Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Verbal Genitive 1 Peter 1:2
>
>
>  EN hAGIASMWi is a preposition with (or which takes) a dative.  When  I 
> see EN + dative one of the things I consider is instrument or  means.  We 
> tend to see PNEUMA in the NT and immediately think "Holy  Spirit" though 
> this may not always be the case.  The genitive is  just a genitive.  It is 
> we who distinguish various flavors (probably  "flavours" to you).  The 
> context must be considered.  For example,  in Rom 8.16 Paul speaks of the 
> Spirit bearing witness with our  spirit.  Obviously, the second "spirit" 
> does not reference the Holy  Spirit.  I would therefore be aware of the 
> context before deciding  which is the usage.  It could be consecration by 
> the Spirit or it  could be consecration of the [our] spirit.  HINT:  Would 
> it be  consecration by one's own spirit?  Remember that the prepositional 
> phrase most likely signifies means or instrument.
>
>  Now, regarding tense.  hAGIASMWi isn't even a participle.  It is a 
>  noun -- hAGIASMOS, -OU, hO.  It therefore has no tense.
>
>  george
>  gfsomsel
>
>
>
>  … search for truth, hear truth,
>  learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>  defend the truth till death.
>
>
>
>  - Jan Hus
>  _________
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  From: Norman Wood <nandk.wood at blueyonder.co.uk>
>  To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>  Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 6:21:40 AM
>  Subject: [B-Greek] Verbal Genitive 1 Peter 1:2
>
>  Hi,
>
>  In 1 Peter 1:2 the phrase EN hAGIASMWi PVEUMATOS is described by J. 
> Ramsey Michaels as a subjective genitive (WBC pg 11). However he  renders 
> it 'consecrated by the Spirit'. This makes ' by the Spirit'  an adverbial 
> phrase and the Spirit is then not the subject of the  verb consecrate. Am 
> I right in thinking that 'what the spirit  consecrates' is how a 
> subjective genitive in this case might be  rendered?
>
>  Also how does one determine the tense of the verb in a verbal  genitive? 
> In the rendering 'consecrated by the Spirit' hAGIAZW has  been rendered as 
> a past tense, however the examples in Wallace GGBB  pg 114 translate as 
> both past and present . Are there any guidelines  for this?
>
>  Best Wishes
>
>  Norman Wood
>
>  Scotland
>  ---
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Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Ret)





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