[B-Greek] EI in Col 1:23/

Anthony Buzzard anthonybuzzard at mindspring.com
Tue Mar 27 19:32:59 EDT 2007


George, thank you. This clarifies. Where we have 
a subjunctive after EI (or its equivalent) would 
we have more indication of the reality of the 
conditional element. I am thinking now of Heb. 
3:14 where the protasis is introduced by EANPER and a subjunctive follows.
Anthony Buzzard.


At 07:24 PM 3/27/2007, George F Somsel wrote:
>I'm not affirming anything regarding the 
>condition (and therefore the conclusion) being 
>fulfilled or not fulfilled.  It is a simple IF X 
>THEN Y condition.  Perhaps X will occur and then 
>so will Y.  On the other hand, perhaps neither will happen.
>
>george
>gfsomsel
>_________
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Anthony Buzzard <anthonybuzzard at mindspring.com>
>To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 7:21:32 PM
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] EI in Col 1:23/
>
>George, If so then, our English translations are 
>misleading?  In English we would hear a real 
>condition. But you are affirming that in Greek, 
>because of the indicative after EI,  there is no 
>possibility of the "condition" not being 
>fulfilled? That it is inevitable that they will 
>continue and that the possibility of them not 
>continuing is our of the question.
>Do others have views here?
>Anthony Buzzard.
>
>At 07:13 PM 3/27/2007, George F Somsel wrote:
>>No, it is not a real condition.  It is a 
>>condition whose truth is assumed for the 
>>purposes of argument WHETHER OR NOT it ever actually occurs.
>>
>>george
>>gfsomsel
>>_________
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----
>>From: Anthony Buzzard <anthonybuzzard at mindspring.com>
>>To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 7:02:09 PM
>>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] EI in Col 1:23/
>>
>>George, Thank you for finding this for me. Am I 
>>right to think that the condition expressed in 
>>the protasis is nevertheless a real condition, 
>>such that not remaining is an actual 
>>possibility, though not one expected by Paul?
>>Anthony Buzzard
>>
>>
>>At 06:52 PM 3/27/2007, George F Somsel wrote:
>>>22 NUNI DE APOKATHLLACEN EN TWi SWMATI THS 
>>>SARKOS AUTOU DIA TOU QANTOU PARASTHSAI hUMAS 
>>>hAGIOUS KAI AMWMOUS KAI ANEGKLHTOUS KATENWPION AUTOU
>>>
>>>23 EI GE EPIMENETE THi PISTEI
>>>
>>>Note that here the apodosis (APOKATHLLACEN) 
>>>precedes the protasis (EI EPIMENETE).  This is 
>>>what has been called a First Class Condition 
>>>in which the condition is ASSUMED to be true for the arguement's sake.
>>>
>>>
>>>1. First Class Condition (Assumed True for Argument’s Sake)
>>>a. Definition
>>>The first class condition indicates the 
>>>assumption of truth for the sake of argument. 
>>>The normal idea, then, is if—and let us assume 
>>>tthat this is true for the sake of 
>>>argument—then
 . This class uses the particle 
>>>εἰ with the indicative (in any tense) in 
>>>the protasis. In the apodosis, any mood and 
>>>any tense can occur. This is a frequent 
>>>conditional clause, occurring about 300 times in the NT.
>>>
>>>Daniel B. Wallace. (1999; 2002). Greek Grammar 
>>>Beyond the Basics - Exegetical Syntax of the 
>>>New Testament (690). Zondervan Publishing House and Galaxie Software.
>>>
>>>
>>>george
>>>gfsomsel
>>>_________
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----
>>>From: Anthony Buzzard <anthonybuzzard at mindspring.com>
>>>To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 6:35:13 PM
>>>Subject: [B-Greek] EI in Col 1:23/
>>>
>>>Ladies and Gentlemen,
>>> >May  I please ask for your expert opinion. In Col 1:23 we have an EI
>>> >(if) with an indicative.
>>>Is it true that when IE is followed by an indicative the condition is
>>>not really a condition? In other words does the Greek mean "If, as is
>>>absolutely certain to be the case, you continue...."
>>>Or is the sense truly conditional, ie "If and only if you
>>>continue.... otherwise...."
>>>Can one say that the indicative after EI cancels the idea that
>>>anything but certainty is implied?.
>>>Certainly in English one hears in Col 1:23 "On 
>>>condition that you persist...."
>>>And the further statement "not shifting...." seems strongly to imply
>>>that such a shifting is a real possibility.
>>>Anthony Buzzard.
>>>
>>>
>>>Anthony Buzzard
>>><http://www.restorationfellowship.org/>www.restorationfellowship.org
>>>
>>>---
>>>B-Greek home page: 
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>>Anthony Buzzard
>><http://www.restorationfellowship.org/>www.restorationfellowship.org
>>
>>
>>
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>Anthony Buzzard
><http://www.restorationfellowship.org/>www.restorationfellowship.org
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www.restorationfellowship.org 


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