[B-Greek] EI in Col 1:23/

Anthony Buzzard anthonybuzzard at mindspring.com
Tue Mar 27 18:21:32 EST 2007


George, If so then, our English translations are 
misleading?  In English we would hear a real 
condition. But you are affirming that in Greek, 
because of the indicative after EI,  there is no 
possibility of the "condition" not being 
fulfilled? That it is inevitable that they will 
continue and that the possibility of them not 
continuing is our of the question.
Do others have views here?
Anthony Buzzard.

At 07:13 PM 3/27/2007, George F Somsel wrote:
>No, it is not a real condition.  It is a 
>condition whose truth is assumed for the 
>purposes of argument WHETHER OR NOT it ever actually occurs.
>
>george
>gfsomsel
>_________
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Anthony Buzzard <anthonybuzzard at mindspring.com>
>To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 7:02:09 PM
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] EI in Col 1:23/
>
>George, Thank you for finding this for me. Am I 
>right to think that the condition expressed in 
>the protasis is nevertheless a real condition, 
>such that not remaining is an actual 
>possibility, though not one expected by Paul?
>Anthony Buzzard
>
>
>At 06:52 PM 3/27/2007, George F Somsel wrote:
>>22 NUNI DE APOKATHLLACEN EN TWi SWMATI THS 
>>SARKOS AUTOU DIA TOU QANTOU PARASTHSAI hUMAS 
>>hAGIOUS KAI AMWMOUS KAI ANEGKLHTOUS KATENWPION AUTOU
>>
>>23 EI GE EPIMENETE THi PISTEI
>>
>>Note that here the apodosis (APOKATHLLACEN) 
>>precedes the protasis (EI EPIMENETE).  This is 
>>what has been called a First Class Condition in 
>>which the condition is ASSUMED to be true for the arguement's sake.
>>
>>
>>1. First Class Condition (Assumed True for Argument’s Sake)
>>a. Definition
>>The first class condition indicates the 
>>assumption of truth for the sake of argument. 
>>The normal idea, then, is if—and let us assume 
>>tthat this is true for the sake of 
>>argument—then
 . This class uses the particle 
>>εἰ with the indicative (in any tense) in the 
>>protasis. In the apodosis, any mood and any 
>>tense can occur. This is a frequent conditional 
>>clause, occurring about 300 times in the NT.
>>
>>Daniel B. Wallace. (1999; 2002). Greek Grammar 
>>Beyond the Basics - Exegetical Syntax of the 
>>New Testament (690). Zondervan Publishing House and Galaxie Software.
>>
>>
>>george
>>gfsomsel
>>_________
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----
>>From: Anthony Buzzard <anthonybuzzard at mindspring.com>
>>To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 6:35:13 PM
>>Subject: [B-Greek] EI in Col 1:23/
>>
>>Ladies and Gentlemen,
>> >May  I please ask for your expert opinion. In Col 1:23 we have an EI
>> >(if) with an indicative.
>>Is it true that when IE is followed by an indicative the condition is
>>not really a condition? In other words does the Greek mean "If, as is
>>absolutely certain to be the case, you continue...."
>>Or is the sense truly conditional, ie "If and only if you
>>continue.... otherwise...."
>>Can one say that the indicative after EI cancels the idea that
>>anything but certainty is implied?.
>>Certainly in English one hears in Col 1:23 "On 
>>condition that you persist...."
>>And the further statement "not shifting...." seems strongly to imply
>>that such a shifting is a real possibility.
>>Anthony Buzzard.
>>
>>
>>Anthony Buzzard
>><http://www.restorationfellowship.org/>www.restorationfellowship.org
>>
>>---
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>>
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>Anthony Buzzard
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>
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