[B-Greek] APOLUTRWSIS

Bert de Haan b_dehaan at sympatico.ca
Tue Mar 20 04:36:58 EST 2007


Thank you George.
Like I tried to indicate earlier; It is not that I agree with Hoogland.  All 
I was trying to do is bring his view into the discussion so that I and 
others may learn from the interaction.
The examples you provide have accomplished that (at least for me.)
Thank you.
Bert de Haan.


>From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>To: Bert de Haan <b_dehaan at sympatico.ca>, b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] APOLUTRWSIS
>Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:25:33 -0700 (PDT)
>
>I would no more agree that words have intrinsic meaning than that they have 
>innate meaning.  I don't see more than about ?? worth of meaning between 
>them.
>
>Shambles:
>
>If I were to say "My room is a shambles" what would you think I meant?  In 
>the AV of 1 Cor 10.25 I read "Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, 
>asking no question for conscience sake:"  He was discussing meat which had 
>been offered to idols and told his readers to buy anything sold in the meat 
>market without asking questions about its origin.  If I were to say "My 
>room is a shambles", however, you would not be likely to think I was 
>calling it a meat market but rather a mess.
>
>If I say "I let him do that" then you would most likely think that I meant 
>that I allowed him to do it (a correct conclusion).  In 2 Thess 2.7 (again, 
>the AV) we read "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who 
>now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."  Here the meaning 
>of "to let" is not "to allow" but precisely the opposite -- "to hinder."
>
>Today we are all acquainted with the term "gay" as a term used of 
>homosexuals.  A 1939 piece of literature called _Gadsby_ has the following
>
>Now this Council?s visit on this particular day, was a sly plan of 
>Gadsby?s, for His Honor is, you know, Youth?s Champion, and having known 
>many an occasion on which Youth has won out against Council opposition. So, 
>our big City officials, strolling around that park, soon saw a smooth lawn 
>upon which sat, stood, or ran, almost a thousand small tots of from four to 
>six. In dainty, flimsy outfits, many carrying fairy wands, it was a sight 
>so charming as to thaw out a brass idol! Amidst this happy party stood a 
>tall shaft, or mast, having hanging from its top a thick bunch of long 
>ribbons, of pink, lilac, gray, and similar dainty colors; and around it 
>stood thirty tots? thirty tiny fists all agog to grasp thirty gay ribbons. 
>Old Bill took a look, and said, growlingly, to His Honor:?
>
>What are "gay ribbons"?  Brightly colored ribbons.  There is even a website 
>"Gaygardener" which I looked at and saw nothing relating to homosexuality.  
>I'm sure it has to do with brightly colored flowers.  There is also a line 
>in one of the songs in George Gershwin's opera _Porgy and Bess" which goes 
>"Today I'm gay and I'm free.  Just a bubbl'n nothin' troublin me" which 
>refers to being happy and carefree.
>
>So then, what is the "intrinsic" or "innate" meaning of these words?  There 
>is none.  Words mean what you make them to mean.  There is a convention by 
>which certain words in certain contexts at a certain time in history have a 
>particular significance BY CONVENTION.
>
>
>george
>gfsomsel
>_________
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Bert de Haan <b_dehaan at sympatico.ca>
>To: gfsomsel at yahoo.com; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 10:43:10 PM
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] APOLUTRWSIS
>
>
>George;
>I was not saying one way or the other.  I was just quoting what I thought
>Jan Hoogland wrote about it.
>Maybe I made a mistake by equating innate meaning with intrinsic meaning.
>These two words might not be exact synonyms but it appears that in this
>context they stand for the same thing.  (Or maybe Humpty Dumpty meant
>something else than I what think he meant:))
>
>I am not able to give the innate meaning of shambles, gay or to let, but I
>would be interested in hearing Jan Hoogland's answer to that question.
>
>Bert de Haan.
>
>
>
> >From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> >To: Bert de Haan <b_dehaan at sympatico.ca>, b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> >Subject: Re: [B-Greek] APOLUTRWSIS
> >Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 18:47:34 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >Bert,
> >
> >I don't think you understand the meaning of "innate."  What you are
> >referencing in no way shows that there are innate meanings to words.  If
> >you think that there are innate meanings to words, then answer the
> >following:  What is the "innate" meaning of "shambles"?  What is the
> >"innate" meaning of "gay"?  What is the "innate" meaning of "to let"?
> >
> >
> >george
> >gfsomsel
> >_________
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message ----
> >From: Bert de Haan <b_dehaan at sympatico.ca>
> >To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> >Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 9:22:56 PM
> >Subject: Re: [B-Greek] APOLUTRWSIS
> >
> >
> >"Barry" <nebarry at verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > >Shall we follow Plato or Aristotle here?  "Innate" and "elephant" are
> >both
> >words
> > >in English with quite restricted semantic ranges, so that your example
> > >really
> > >doesn't relate.  Would you care to tell me what the innate meanings of
> >the
> > >words
> > >"run" and "scan" are in English?  I am supplying English examples 
>because
> > >it
> > >makes the point better for us native English (or American) speakers 
>than
> > >Greek,
> > >for which it is very difficult for modern students to "feel" the 
>semantic
> > >range
> > >of the word in the same way an ancient would have.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >A while back  Jan Hoogland <hoogland at hawaii.rr.com> offered an article 
>for
> >review and comments on B-Greek that deals with this topic quite a bit.
> >I have not finished it yet but I remembered that he used the example 
>"run"
> >to demonstrate that words do have intrinsic meanings.  Here is a quote:
> >
> >" Compare, for example, the meaning of the word run in the sentences he
> >runs
> >a business and he runs a stop sign. The occurrences of the word run in
> >these
> >sentences differ in meaning, the difference being induced by the context
> >rather than being inherent in the word run itself. Inherent in the word 
>run
> >in both contexts is only the idea of moving well.<....snip.....>How can 
>we
> >manage by assigning only a single intrinsic meaning to the word run? It 
>is
> >possible by noticing that run in itself only generates in the mind a 
>notion
> >of moving well. A check on all thirty specific dictionary meanings of the
> >verb run reveals that indeed every entry has something to do with moving
> >well, some may be farfetched or abstract, but the connection is
> >unmistakable
> >in all cases. The context then adds further meaning to the point where we
> >arrive at each specific use of run. Note that the context can only add
> >meaning to the intrinsic meaning of run, but does not and cannot provide
> >the
> >intrinsic meaning itself. This process of assembling the intended meaning
> >of
> >a sentence is one of addition rather than one of elimination, as the
> >concept
> >of multiple meanings of a word requires. The clarity of meaning of a
> >sentence obtained in this way is quite surprising, considering such a 
>large
> >variety in usage. The clarity is a consequence of adhering to a single
> >intrinsic meaning of a word.<...snip...>An example may show how the mind
> >builds up the meaning of a sentence. By slowly reading the sentence: He 
>ran
> >the car into the ditch, it will be noticed that ran by itself indicates 
>no
> >more than that something is moving well. No appeal by the mind is being
> >made
> >to the specific meanings of run, only a curiosity is present as to how 
>the
> >sentence is going to proceed. The mention of the car adds considerable
> >meaning, but again it does not start an elimination process of the 
>possible
> >specific meanings of run or car; it only adds further meaning to the
> >developing sentence. The addition of into and the ditch completes the
> >meaning of the sentence and establishes a specific use of ran, which in
> >this
> >case is driving an automobile too fast.
> >
> >As the verb run has thirty specific meanings, car three, into six and 
>bush
> >one, we are faced with 540 combinations of meaning from which we have to
> >somehow select the intended combination. Experience shows that anybody
> >understands the intended meaning instantly and without fail, indicating
> >that
> >the process is additive, single meaning by single meaning. This proves 
>that
> >the thirty different specific meanings are not independent meanings but 
>are
> >thirty different uses of a single intrinsic meaning. Note that when ran 
>is
> >replaced by xxx, the intrinsic meaning of ran cannot be retrieved by the
> >context, as it could stand for crashed, tumbled, flew, etc. The 
>assignment
> >of a single intrinsic meaning to a word is fundamental to the concept of
> >word meaning and the differentiation between intrinsic meaning and usage
> >will prove to be essential."
> >
> >(Maybe this will whet the apatite for the rest of the article.)
> >
> >
> >Bert de Haan.
> >
> >
> >---
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> >
> >
> >
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