[B-Greek] word order of adverbs.

Bert de Haan b_dehaan at sympatico.ca
Sun Mar 18 15:58:07 EST 2007


George, I can't check the Hebrew so I am relying on you.  Does the Hebrew 
have an infinitive for the second verb? And if so, does a Hebrew infinitive 
get used in the way you used a finite verb in your example?  That is the 
difference between Gen. 3:9 and Jer. 44:17.  The one has KAI EIPEN and the 
other EIPEIN.
I viewed the use of EIPEIN (correctly or not) in the same way it is used in 
Luke 5:14;
KAI AUTOS PARHGGEILEN AUTWi MHDENI EIPEIN.
And he ordered him TO TELL no one.
It is an instance of  indirect discourse so the second verb has a different 
subject then the first.
He ordered him; TELL no one.
In Gen. 3: 9;
KAI EKALESEN KURIOS hO QEOS TON ADAM KAI EIPEN AUTWi.
Both verbs have the same subject: The LORD God.
I viewed Jer.44:17 as indirect discourse; and the king asked `him to tell  
if there is a word from the Lord.
As direct discourse this would be; and the king asked him; Tell (me) if 
there is a word from the Lord.
Now adding KRUFAIWS it would be either; "And the king secretly asked him; 
Say if there is a word from the Lord." Or;  "And the king asked him; Say 
secretly if there is a word from the Lord."

I hope I am making sense.
Bert de Haan.

>From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>To: Bert de Haan <b_dehaan at sympatico.ca>, kline_dekooning at earthlink.net
>CC: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] word order of adverbs.
>Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 09:33:00 -0700 (PDT)
>
>I don't understand your comment that "I don't think that both verbs are 
>about one speech act.  Zedekiah asked (HRWTA) Jeremiah to tell (EIPEIN) if 
>there was a word from the Lord."  The LXX appears to be a fairly 
>straightforward translation of the Hebrew and as such follows the Hebrew 
>practice in which the occurence of a speech event is announced and then 
>introduced by a verb of saying (somewhat similar to the use of hOTI to 
>introduce discourse in Greek).  Only one speech event is contemplated.  As 
>an example, in Gen 3.9 it says
>
>WaY.iQ:Rf) YHWH ):eLoHiYM )eL_Hf)fDfM WaY.o)MeR LoW )Y.eK.fH
>
>KAI EKALESEN KURIOS hO QEOS TON ADAM KAI EIPEN AUTWi "ADAM, POU EI?"
>
>And YHWH * /called/ * to the man * /and said/ * to him "[Adam]** Where are 
>you?"
>
>** "Adam" not contained in the speech in Hebrew.
>
>george
>gfsomsel
>_________
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Bert de Haan <b_dehaan at sympatico.ca>
>To: kline_dekooning at earthlink.net
>Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 11:50:41 AM
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] word order of adverbs.
>
>
>Thanks Elizabeth.
>My question was mainly about the position of the adverb and you answered
>that.
>I used Jeremiah as an example.  However, I don't think that both verbs are
>about one speech act.
>Zedekiah asked (HRWTA) Jeremiah to tell (EIPEIN) if there was a word from
>the Lord.
>Still,  it does not make a lot of difference because if the king asks in
>secret he probably is hoping for an answer in secret as well.
>Thanks again.
>Bert de Haan.
>
>
> >From: Elizabeth Kline <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>
> >To: Bert de Haan <b_dehaan at sympatico.ca>
> >CC: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> >Subject: Re: [B-Greek] word order of adverbs.
> >Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 19:51:28 -0700
> >
> >Bert,
> >
> >The position of this adverb in Jer. 44:17 LXX reflects the position  of
> >bstr in the MT. The LXX of Jer has several minuses but the word  order at
> >this point reflects the Hebrew word order. In any event the  two verbs
> >HRWTA ... EIPEIN are all about one speech act so it  wouldn't amount to
> >much either way would it?
> >
> >The LXX has its own syntax and does not follow the rules of Attic or
> >Koine.
> >
> >
> >
> >Elizabeth Kline
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >On Mar 17, 2007, at 5:48 PM, Bert de Haan wrote:
> >
> >>I was wondering if there is a common place for an adverb to be in in
> >>relation to the verb.
> >>It seems to me that MH or OU are usually ahead of the verb but is  that
> >>the
> >>case with adverbs in general?
> >>
> >>Here is an example; Jeremia 37;17 (44:17)
> >>KAI APESTEILEN ZEDEKIAS KAI EKALESEN AUTON, KAI HRWTA AUTON hO  BASILEUS
> >>KRUFAIWS EIPEIN EI ESTIN LOGOS PARA KURIOU...
> >>
> >>This is something like; And Zedekia sent for and called him and the  
>king
> >>secretly  asked him to say if there is word for the Lord...
> >>
> >>The context suggests that KRUFAIWS belongs to HRWTA even though  there 
>are
> >>three words between.  Before I looked at the context I had it go  with 
>the
> >>next verb; EIPEIN.
> >>Would that be a possibility or is there a way to tell which verb it
> >>belongs
> >>to.
> >>Thank you.
> >>Bert de Haan.
> >>
> >>
> >>---
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> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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