[B-Greek] 2 Thess. 2:6-7--two proposals

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Thu Mar 1 17:00:41 EST 2007


On Mar 1, 2007, at 3:02 PM, Webb wrote:

>
> Dear Oun,
> 1.  Difference btw active vs passive -- may it have something to do
> with the nature of 'middle' in Gk?

What it really has to do with is the fact that the forms labeled  
middle-passive and passive (QH) all, when intransitive, bear the  
sense "enter into state X." The nearest English equivalent is "get" +  
predicate word (which may be a participle): GINOMAI is the  
quintessential middle-passive verb that can quite readily be  
Englished (usually) as "get" or "come to be" with a predicate word.

> Not to me, it doesn't. It has to do with my understanding that  
> GINOMAI is
> strictly an intransitive verb. It never EVER takes an object. If a  
> verb
> can't take an object, you can't turn it into a passive. In English,  
> for
> example, the verb "to be" doesn't take an object. Like GINOMAI, it  
> can take
> a predicate nominative or a predicate adjective and whatnot, but it  
> can't
> take an object. If a verb (let's say X is a verb) is capable of being
> transitive, then it is capable of taking an object. "I X this  
> thing." For
> the most part, that also means that I can use the object as the  
> subject, and
> throw the verb into the passive voice to express an equivalent  
> statement:
> "This thing is Xed by me". But you can't say "I am ammed". There is no
> passive voice for the verb "to be", or for any strictly  
> intransitive verb.
> So in 2 Thess. 2:7, whatever GENHTAI means, it can't mean that  
> something
> else acts on the subject of the verb. Whatever action there is, is  
> carried
> out by the subject. From my limited knowledge of Greek, ARTI hEWS  
> EK MESOU
> GENHTAI can't possibly mean "until he is taken out of the  
> way" (pace KJV,
> NASB, NIV, NCV, NRSV, TEV).

Of course GENHTAI can't mean that something else acts on the subject  
of the verb -- but that may be implicit as it is always implicit in a  
MP form: GINETAI EK MESOU means "gets to be out-of-the-way, out-of- 
the-scene, off-the-table, out-of-this-world, out-of-this-life." Just  
as EGEIRETAI means "enters into a waking (or upright) state" it is  
open to interpretation as "awakes" or "gets awakened." While I think  
one ought to understand this ambivalence of the Greek MP form, I  
don't really have any objection to understanding EK MESOU GINETAI as  
"gets removed" (passive) or "gets out of the way" (intransitive/ 
ergative: the subject may simply leave the center of action or he/she  
may be forcibly removed by an external agent.

I have no quarrel with BDAG's entry on this passage.

BDAG, s.v. GINOMAI: EK T. OURANWN G.
	6. to make a change of location in space, move
	b. EK TINOS (Job 28:2): γ. EK MESOU be removed, Lat. e medio tolli  
(cp. Ps.-Aeschin., Ep. 12, 6 EK MESOU GENOMENWN EKEINWN; Plut.,  
Timol. 238 [5, 3]; Achilles Tat. 2, 27, 2) 2 Th 2:7 (HFulford, ET 23,  
1912, 40f: ‘leave the scene’). Of a voice fr. heaven: EK T.  
OURANWN G. sound forth fr. heaven (2 Macc 2:21; cp. Da 4:31 Theod.)  
Mk 1:11; Lk 3:22; 9:35; cp. vs. 36.


> 2.  It should be 'And now you know what's ~ ', not 'And you know  
> what's now
> ~'
> I've got a lot of translations in front of me, including Lattimore,  
> who is
> not particularly influenced by the English bible translation  
> tradition. No
> one them takes NUN with OIDATE. I'm inclined to trust them on this.



Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/




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