[B-Greek] John 3:19 strange word order?
Carl W. Conrad
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Tue Aug 21 06:24:27 EDT 2007
On Aug 21, 2007, at 2:10 AM, Bert de Haan wrote:
> Thank you Kelton. I have no problem with the sg. verb and pl. neuter
> subject but I cannot recall seeing the verb before the subject and
> nominative instead of between them or after both. Also, the
> genitive in
> front of TA ERGA is okay but PONHRA seperating AUTWN and TA ERGA
> sure caused
> a hickup as I read this verse.
Well,PONHRA is clearly predicative. If there's anything strange about
this word-order (and the text as it stands certainly doesn't seem
unintelligible), it's the "fronted" HN ; a form of EIMI is ordinarily
fronted when it bears an existential sense rather than a copulative
sense as here. I do think one might more likely expect: HN GAR PONHRA
TA ERGA AUTWN or PONHRA GAR HN TA ERGA AUTWN. The effect of the word-
order as it stands in the Johannine text is something like, "Theirs,
after all, were evil -- their works, that is."
Carl W. Conrad
>> From: kgraham0938 at comcast.net
>> To: "Bert de Haan" <b_dehaan at sympatico.ca>, b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 3:19 strange word order?
>> Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 03:35:38 +0000
>> Hey Bert. Well I can see your why you would struggle with this.
>> PONHPA is
>> in the first predicate position. Which is adjective-article-noun,
>> second predicate position would be article-noun-adjective. Since
>> this is
>> in the predicate position it should be "the works are evil." The
>> being in front TA ERGA is not uncommon in Greek. But the thing
>> that I
>> would be careful of is that even though HN here is singular;
>> neuter plurals
>> can take singular verbs.
>> Kelton Graham
>> KGRAHAM0938 at comcast.net
>> -------------- Original message --------------
>> From: "Bert de Haan" <b_dehaan at sympatico.ca>
>>> John 3:19 is as follows: hAUTE DE ESTIN hH KRISIS TO FWS ELHLUQEN
>>> KOSMON KAI HGAPHSAN hOI ANQRWPOI MALLON TO SKOTOS H TO FWS; HN
>>> GAR AUTWN
>>> PONHRA TA ERGA.
>>> It is the last part (HN GAR AUTWN PONHRA TA ERGA)that is the
>>> cause of
>>> trouble for me. The word order seems strange. Especially HN at the
>>> of the sentence and AUTWN removed from TA ERGA threw me for a loop.
>>> GAR HN TA ERGA AUTWN would be what I would consider "normal." Is
>>> thing strange about the way the second part of John 3:19 is
>>> written or
>> is it
>>> just my lack of experience with Greek that makes it appear that
>>> way to
>>> Thank you,
>>> Bert de Haan.
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