[B-Greek] Translating Mark 1:4 and 1:8 (revised)

Glenden Riddle glendenpriddle at yahoo.com
Thu Nov 3 17:37:00 EST 2005


Dan and others interested in this topic of word
meaning and translation,
I have always thought the greatest danger of having a
couple of years of Greek in seminary training is the
unrealistic picture students often get of how
translation works. During the last thirty years we
have been blessed with the introduction of linguistics
alongside the biblical languages. Without this wedding
of the basic language courses and linguistics much
harm has been done under the guise of exegesis.
I have my language students study in addition to the
Greek and Hebrew grammar the following:
Moises Silva "Biblical Words and their Meaning"
David Alan Black "Linguistics for Students of New
Testament Greek"
J.P. Louw "Semantics of New Testament Greek"
For those who can handle a more difficult level"
James Barr "The Semantics of Biblical Language"
And, on a more specific topic:
Mark L. Strauss "Distorting Scripture? The Challenge
of Bible Translation & Gender Accuracy"
D.A. Carson "The Inclusive Lanuage Debate"
Any ambassador working in the U.N. who had a
translator translating in the way many try to
translate the Biblical texts...well, let's just say
that translator would be numbered among the unemployed
statistics.
glenden p. riddle
albuquerque, NM

--- "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at ioa.com> wrote:

> 
> On Nov 3, 2005, at 4:36 PM, Dan Gleason wrote:
> 
> > Dr Conrad
> > Thank you for the very candid and constructive
> critisism. I admit,  
> > I may be wrong on the way I translated Holy Spirit
> but the more  
> > important issue is how I translated the word
> baptism.
> >
> > Regarding my interlinear approach, I think
> translating the greek  
> > verb BAPTW as a primary word pointing to
> "immersion" in all it's  
> > cognates rather than to an alternate connotation
> such as "ritual  
> > washing for the remission of sins" leads to seeing
> the Greek text  
> > in a new light.
> 
> Part of the problem (what I, at least, view as a
> problem) is that you  
> are thinking of BAPTW, a verb which does mean "dip"
> or "immerse" in a  
> very concrete sense, as what BAPTIZW really means,
> so much so, in  
> fact, that you are even writing BAPTW here as if it
> were the verb in  
> the texts of Mark 1:4 and 1:8.
> 
> > For example, in my Mk 1:4 post the theme of
> immersing in the  
> > wilderness points to Moses, Elias, and Jesus who
> were all "immersed  
> > in the wilderness" - one for 40 yrs, the other two
> for 40 days.  
> > Immersion also points to Baptism (as washing) then
> to "Imersion in  
> > Water" (a form of Chistening for people), then on
> to "immersion in  
> > the Holy Spirit" (Mk 1:8) The way I see it, the
> word "immersion"  
> > does double duty whereas baptism does not.
> 
> And as George has already pointed out, you've now
> moved on to  
> "immersion" as some sort of code-word for "long-term
> residence" in  
> the desert. I think you are playing games with Greek
> and English  
> rather than dealing with demonstrable meanings.
> 
> >> From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at ioa.com>
> >> To: Dan Gleason <dan-bgreek at hotmail.com>
> >> CC: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> >> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Translating Mark 1:8
> (revised)
> >> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 14:52:25 -0500
> >>
> >> Dan, you've made perfectly clear that you intend
> to persist with  
> >> this  "interlinear" mode of transliteration
> despite the fact that  
> >> several  respondents have called attention to its
> inaccurate  
> >> representation of  the sense of the Greek. So
> here "immerse" for  
> >> "BAPTIZW" has been  faulted by several
> respondents as inaccurate  
> >> certainy for the second  verb form here
> (BAPTISEI), and while you  
> >> might think "a Holy Spirit"  accurately
> represents the Greek text  
> >> PNEUMATI hAGIWi, what you're  deriving from the
> Greek is pidgin- 
> >> English rather than an equivalent  of what the
> Greek text says.  
> >> What's wrong with this "interlinear"  style of
> "translation" is  
> >> that it's based on an assumption that the 
> "forest" of a sequence  
> >> of discourse is no less and no more than but 
> exactly equal to the  
> >> sum of the "trees" of words inside that 
> sequence. I think that's  
> >> been stated in different ways in several of  the
> responses to your  
> >> idiosyncratic renderings of Marcan texts, but I 
> felt it was worth  
> >> reiterating "yet once more again," despite the
> fact  that you've  
> >> made it obvious that you intend to go on doing it
> this way.
> >>
> >> On Nov 3, 2005, at 2:14 PM, Dan Gleason wrote:
> >>
> >>> Translating Mark 1:8 (revised)
> >>>
> >>> EGW EBAPTISA UMAS UDATI
> >>> I immersed you in Water ...
> >>>
> >>> AUTOS DE BAPTISEI UMAS EN PNEUMATI AGIWi
> >>> but he will-immerse you in <a-Holy Spirit >
> correct to "a Holy   
> >>> Spirit." .
> >>>
> >>> Is this translation accurate?
> >>> ______________________
> >>>
> >>> Based on the feedback I have recieved re
> PNEUMATI AGIWi  (an   
> >>> antherous noun modified by an adjective) my new
> translation is  
> >>> "a  Holy Spirit."
> >>> In all similar circumstances I will never use
> "a-" and connect  
> >>> it  to the noun again.
> >>>
> >>> However, I don't think there is anything wrong
> with my use of  
> >>> the  hyphen for embedded words.
> >>> I don't see anything wrong with this interlinear
> approach.
> >>>
> >>> I have read the feedback about why using "the"
> instead of "a"  
> >>> with  HS is preferred but I am not yet
> convinced.
> >>>
> >>> When I first posted, I gave the following reason
> for using the   
> >>> indefinite article:
> >>> The term Holy Spirit is being anartharously
> introduced for the   
> >>> first time.
> >>> Something like a character in a play who is
> making his first   
> >>> appearance.
> >>> The audience who are "in the know" know it
> refers to God ... but   
> >>> for the
> >>> pagans in the audience ...
> >>> Is it possible that an indefinite translation
> was intended until the
> >>> character was more fully developed in subsequent
> verses?
> >>>
> >>> Is there anything wrong with my reasoning here?
> >>>
> >>> Dan Gleason
> >>>
> >>>
>
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> >>>
> >>> ---
> >>> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
> >>> B-Greek mailing list
> >>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> >>
> >>
> >> Carl W. Conrad
> >> Department of Classics, Washington University
> (Emeritus)
> >> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828)
> 675-4243
> >> cwconrad2 at mac.com
> >> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
> >>
> >
> >
>
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> > ---
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> > B-Greek mailing list
> > B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> 
> 
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University
> (Emeritus)
> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828)
> 675-4243
> cwconrad2 at mac.com
> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
> 
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
> 
=== message truncated ===



		
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